Geocaching on Federal Lands WARNING

[Birds & Bikes]

Today while searching for a cache just east of the Copan Reservoir dam (northern Washington Co., Okla.) we were interrogated by a member of the Corp. of Engineers. He stated we were "acting suspiciously on Federal lands." The gentleman went on to explain that we were subject to arrest, detention and interrogation by the FBI if he chose to "make the call."

 

Fortunately, we were not detained; however we were advised to warn other geocachers. Due to the international environment and US terrorist "security alert level C", many Federal sites are restricted. This includes dam sites operated by the Corp of Engineers, or any Federal lands. Please keep this in mind.

[Tahosa and Sons]

"or any Federal lands. Please keep this in mind."

 

Well if I smell a terrorist when I'm in the Hills I'll ask him to pray before he departs for a meeting with the Big Cache in the Sky!!

 

Tahosa - Dweller of the Mountain Tops.

[SE7EN]

I guess the key would be not to act suspiciously on Federal land.

 

Second, I think he's full of kaka, but then it's not wise to act belligerently with anyone who has the ability to ruin a caching trip.

 

I'd probably just say okay and move on.

 

Using the "I lost my car keys" or "I'm looking for my cat" routine would probably be better than trying to explain geocaching in these trying times.

[flat_lander]

Wow... it sounds like they are playing it pretty strict there. Not that it's not justified, but a little common courtesy could have been used by the COE member. It sounds like he was just trying to be a jerk. In a time of war I would not blame him for inquiring about activity he's not familiar with, but part of the job of a "recreation" area is to incourage "recreation".

 

Ironically, I just met with the Kansas City Disctrict of the Corp. of Engineers this afternoon who granted permission for geocache placement at a local reservior (which does include a dam). The ranger I spoke to said it sounded like a fun activity and said they had no problem with cache placements or cache finding so long as park regulations were obeyed.

 

His only comment was that he'd prefer to have the geocache containers marked on the outside denoting them as such. Too bad the Corp. in your area are not as understanding.

[Northern-Lights]

Excuse me while I spit a foul tasting lougie on that bit of hyper ego-ism. Hope you called his office to report his little ego trip. First of all.....you can't be arrested just because he says so....Now if HE was a law enforcement officer....he can arrest you on suspician...but you can't be arrested because somebody else says your suspicious. Now....while the western BLM lands seem to have all kinds of weird restrictions....the Federal Lands here in Michigan actually have more lienant rules generally than our state lands...at least with reguards to off road vehicles and such. Geo-caching is not in danger here.......yet.

 

Earth First!!! We'll cache the other planets later!!

[+beatnik]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Birds & Bikes:

Today while searching for a cache just east of the Copan Reservoir dam (northern Washington Co., Okla.) we were interrogated by a member of the Corp. of Engineers. He stated we were "acting suspiciously on Federal lands." The gentleman went on to explain that we were subject to arrest, detention and interrogation by the FBI if he chose to "make the call."

 

Fortunately, we were not detained; however we were advised to warn other geocachers. Due to the international environment and US terrorist "security alert level C", many Federal sites are restricted. This includes dam sites operated by the Corp of Engineers, or any Federal lands. Please keep this in mind.

---

 

Hmmm, sounds like a redneck knee jerk reaction. Although the cache in question is fairly near, almost in view of the corp office as I recall. Which may not be a good idea.

 

Maybe I'm out of line, but who in the hell would blow up Copan Dam? Not the most intelligent terrorist target. I probably would have gotten myself in trouble because I probably wouldn't have been too nice in return.

 

I love the feeling of being captive in my OWN country. I'm not willing to give up my freedoms for the paranoid.

 

beatnik

[+Brian - Team A.I.]

I agree. An engineer he is, but cop he is not. Without that badge and certification to say he is a peace officer, there isn't squat he can do in the way of detaining you...because he says so. Had he chosen to enforce that 'claim', HE would be subject to charges of unlawful imprisonment or even kidnapping.

 

*cough*civil right violations*cough*

 

it wouldn't be prudent to get a 'tude with them, but it wouldn't be wrong to request written proof to back his claims.

 

Brian

Team A.I.

 

<edit>Besides, I pay taxes, and therefore these 'federal' lands are MY lands, as well as anyone else living in this country who pays taxes.</edit>

[+GrizzlyJohn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Birds & Bikes:

He stated we were "acting suspiciously on Federal lands." The gentleman went on to explain that we were subject to arrest, detention and interrogation by the FBI if he chose to "make the call."

---

Could we please send this guy to Washington D.C.? There are a lot of politicans there that are acting suspiciously on Federal lands.

 

I don't put up with any of this. I know my rights. Call their bluff. There are too many people that think their mindless job with the government gives them some kind of power to harass at will. I enjoy the part where they end up having to appologize. I don't start pushing my attitude with them until they start. There is no reason to put up with that, either from some low level government desk jockey or a person of law enforcement. The law works both ways. More than once I have said, either you are going to arrest me or shut up because I am going about my business. I have yet to be arrested. If you are not breaking the law you don't have anything to fear from these people. Once they know you don't fear them they have lost their ability to bully you. For some reason it seems OK to pat down grandmom at the airport but we sure don't want to upset and violate some Arab national. It only happens because we allow it to happen.

[+Sissy-n-CR]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

It only happens because we allow it to happen.

---

 

This is true. My major concern is the fact that our hobby is very exposed and open to considerable harm. In a situation like this, we may win against some jerk. But what happens after it's all explained to him and he gets reprimanded? We may have just created a militant plunderer. This is not what we want.

 

Tact goes a long way to getting what we want and that's to not be harassed while we are caching. There is another recent thread about a cache being removed and a pair of cacher's attitude didn't help the situation.

 

The major challenge here is to calm one's fears when they become suspicious. Our sport really is harmless in respect to security, trespassing aside. If you're confronted and your canned excuses don't work, be honest. Just explain that part of the hobby is not compromising the cache that's the reason for the obfuscation. With police, and I guess with all security, I present the "card." So far, I've always gotten that "cop listening to lame excusses" look and if I rattle on long enough, I also get the "okay, gotta go" response.

 

Here's a couple of suggestions I have. If you're caught before you've found the cache, you really must make a judgement call. Do you think you can show this person how harmless caching is and are they likely to compromise the cache? If you feel comfortable, invite them to help you find it. Be chatty, tactful, and friendly. If you don't feel comfortable showing them the hiding spot, give them this site's address and your email address, and abandon the search.

 

If you are caught with the cache--hopefully you've moved away from the hiding spot--show them what's in it. Explain to them what caching is all about. Most likely you'll one of two responses. One is an blank stare or eyeroll and they walk off. The other is they may seem interested in the sport--hey, you've made a convert.

 

A positive attitude and tact will go a long way in promoting the sport and keeping us out of hot water with the muggles we encounter.

 

CR

 

[+Renegade Knight]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Birds & Bikes:

Today while searching for a cache just east of the Copan Reservoir dam (northern Washington Co., Okla.) we were interrogated by a member of the Corp. of Engineers. He stated we were "acting suspiciously on Federal lands." The gentleman went on to explain that we were subject to arrest, detention and interrogation by the FBI if he chose to "make the call."

 

Fortunately, we were not detained; however we were advised to warn other geocachers. Due to the international environment and US terrorist "security alert level C", many Federal sites are restricted. This includes dam sites operated by the Corp of Engineers, or any Federal lands. Please keep this in mind.

---

 

Sometimes you have to have special training to be a jerk.

 

If some random person comes up and is nice I'll tell him whats going on.

 

If they come up with an attitude cooperation is not what they will get from me. ESPECIALLY if they explain how miserable they can make my life.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

[+Darkmoon]

 

Just the other morning, I was in an area looking to put a cache out and as I was heading back to my truck, I saw that I was surrounded by two police cruisers! I figured some one saw me walking with my GPS and backpack and figured I was a terrorist! As I got there , the police asked what I was doing out there and I explained to the officers! Told them about geocaching and all as they checked my license and credentials! I guessed I checked out okay as they told me to have a nice day and be careful! That was it...no bad attitudes, no cavity searches, I was polite and they were polite! Sorry that you had a run in with a jerk!

Some people like to believe they have power!

 

Darkmoon

 

All you have to do to fly is throw yourself at the ground and miss!

[+SpongeRob]

I gotta keep going with the same thing. I've not been stopped yet but when I do I've got to play the following card...

 

Would I as a terrorist come out to the middle of nowhere (with my family in tow) with a GPS to blow up a Tree?

 

I completely understand the heightened security but just about ANYTHING at this point could be considered suspicious. Somone on a walkie talking talking in a foreign language could be just as suspicious.

 

I'd prefer that they work on getting the freaks out of the preserves who park in the lot looking for a "Good Time" instead of bothering somone just out on a hike.

 

--

SpongeRob

rwmech@keenpeople.com

www.keenpeople.com

WPWU826

 

Cache'n Retrievers

[+jeff35080]

Could we please send this guy to Washington D.C.? There are a lot of politicans there that are acting suspiciously on Federal lands.

 

ROTFLMAO

 

Seriously though, I can't help but wonder if this guy was just having a bad day, or if he always acts in that manner.

 

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

[+TEAM 360]

I believe it was here in Arizona that a cop wanted to question a guy walking down the street, not doing anything wrong. This guy totally ignored the cop and kept walking. The cop arrested him for not cooperating, "obstruction" or something like that. This guy sued, and was cleared of all charges because the courts found that if you are not doing anything wrong, you have the RIGHT to be left alone and not harassed by the police. Don't let someone strongarm you into waiving your rights.

[+rockhopjohn]

Most of the people of any aurthority I have run into are idiots.

 

I had a cache on one of the local Water Authorities public parks, and at some point it disappeared, and was found by some of their maintenance people. There first conclusion was that since it was in an ammo box it MUST be a bomb, so in their infinte wisdom they brought it back to their offices where they proceeded to open it up (these guys are really smart, I know if I find a bomb, I am gonna bring it home). When they open it up and realize that there was no dynamite or plastique inside, they instantly concluded it must be full of porn or something else indecent (of course, why else would it be in the woods), and to quote to water aurthorities manager "I thought it was something dirty."

 

I couldn't help but proceed to metaphorically roll on the floor laughing in there offices. Which I don't think they really appreciated. Anyway, they were fine with me putting caches on their property, there only request was that I paint the ammo cans so you couldn't see the contents listing on the side.

 

I don't mind a little authority, but you have to earn my respect before I accept too much authority, and unfortunately I have found very few in the government that deserve even an iota of respect.

[geoStrider]

A similar situation happened to me and my 12 year old son today. We were at stage 2 of a multi cache in downtown Tucson and were sitting in the shade near an office building next to the stage 1 stop interpretting the clues for the next stage. A federal officer approached us from the building and explained that we were at a federal building, he had noticed us on his monitor, and said it appeared we were taking pictures of the building (which we weren't). I explained what my son had in his hand was a GPSr , not a camera. I gave the high level overview of geocaching and he seemed satisfied. Actually, he was very cordial about it, explaining that the complex was on a high level of alert. I thanked him for being vigilant in these times.

 

Veni, Vidi, Cachi ...

[CloneZone]

Like a couple other posters here, I would advise you fully cooperate with any Federal officer while on Federally controlled lands. I would suspect the person in question was a park ranger, and they do have authority to enforce certain regulations. In my dealings with park rangers, most don't give you "attitude" unless receiving it first. Take that for what it's worth.

 

Anyway, I was curious as to what all regulations were in place at this dam, and found this information: Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use of Project Land. Note especially Sect. 327.24, looks like if you don't fully cooperate with them, you are indeed subject to fine and imprisonment. And even though I couldn't find a notice anywhere, I would guess that all dams everywhere are on high alert, so don't expect to go unnoticed.

[+Marky]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Indiana Jeff:

I believe it was here in Arizona that a cop wanted to question a guy walking down the street, not doing anything wrong. This guy totally ignored the cop and kept walking. The cop arrested him for not cooperating, "obstruction" or something like that. This guy sued, and was cleared of all charges because the courts found that if you are not doing anything wrong, you have the RIGHT to be left alone and not harassed by the police. Don't let someone strongarm you into waiving your rights.

---

So true. We were on a cache hunt with some friends and the cache in question was on mall property. There were five us looking around in some landscaping and a security officer pulled up and inquired as to what we were doing. One of the members of the group looked up and said "We're just some nice people having some fun here, you don't need to worry about us." The officer said okay and drove off, not bothering us further. It made me think of The Star Wars "These aren't the droids you're looking for" line.

 

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

[+1911]

You should read a copy of "The patriot act" signed into law after 9-11 if you want to see what they can do in the name of "terrorism".

[CloneZone]

Another thing to consider is this recent bulletin from Dept. of Homeland Security. It's probably little wonder Birds & Bikes was approached.

 

quote:

---

Department of Homeland Security

POSSIBLE INDICATORS OF AL-QAEDA SURVEILLANCE

Information Bulletin 03-004

--March 20, 2003

DHS Information Bulletins communicate issues that pertain to the critical national infrastructure and are for informational purposes only.

Al-Qaeda operations have been characterized by meticulous planning, a focus on inflicting mass casualties, and multiple, simultaneous suicide attacks. Operatives are highly trained in basic and sophisticated surveillance techniques, posing challenges for counterterrorism and security forces in identifying terrorist surveillance. Recent information and analysis point to surveillance practices that traditionally have been utilized by Al-Qaeda-affiliated operatives. While not exhaustive, the following list suggests possible indicators of terrorist surveillance.

--Unusual or prolonged interest in security measures or personnel, entry points and access controls, or perimeter barriers such as fences or walls.

--Unusual behavior such as starting or quickly looking away from personnel or vehicles entering or leaving designated facilities or parking areas.

--Observation of security reaction drills or procedures.

--Increase in anonymous telephone or e-mail threats to facilities in conjunction with suspected surveillance incidents-indicating possible surveillance of threat reaction procedures.

--Foot surveillance involving two or three individuals working together.

--Mobile surveillance using bicycles, scooters, motorcycles, cars, trucks, sport utility vehicles, boats, or small aircraft.

--Prolonged static surveillance using operatives disguised as panhandlers, demonstrators, shoe shiners, food or flower vendors, news agents, or street sweepers not previously seen in the area.

--Discreet use of still cameras, video recorders or note taking at non-tourist type locations.

--Use of multiple sets of clothing, identifications, or the use of sketching materials (paper, pencils, etc.).

--Questioning of security or facility personnel.

General information on possible terrorist planning activities proceeding an attack can be found at www.dhs.gov <http://www.dhs.gov/>.

DHS encourages individuals to report information concerning such suspicious activity to their local FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) office, DHS, or to other appropriate authorities. Individuals can reach the DHS (NIPC) WATCH AND WARNING UNIT at (202) 323-3205, toll free at 1-888-585-9078, or by email to nipc.watch@fbi.gov <mailto:nipc.watch@fbi.gov>.

---

[dave and jaime]

i can understand the hightened sense of security, i can even understand the government reviewing policies on terrorism or questionable activities, but how can a document such as the one clonezone posted be considered anywhere near sensible? terrorists exist and have targeted the states, ok, the states must try to circumvent attacks, ok, but at the risk of individual freedoms? i think not.

 

im a canadian and infact a newfoundlander, and while i dont live in a hotbed for terrorist attacks, i could care less that some idealogical jacka$$ wants to make a statement, i for one wont allow the twisted few run my life, nor should anyone else. i guess my main point is that if your government changed its policy on terrorists after 9/11, maybe is was inadequate to begin with?

[CloneZone]

dave and jaime,

 

not sure what you are considering as being nowhere near sensible? I think the regulations posted are to make sure that no one ruins it for everyone else (and were drawn up before 9/11), while the other document tells people what kind of behavior to be on the watch for. Seems fairly common sense to me, 9/11 notwithstanding.

[dave and jaime]

clonezone:

 

well the entire bulletin you posted is a result of paranoia, and i would suggest the feeling that we are the us and it cant happen here by senior government officials trying to cover our own a$$e$.

 

as for the 'possible indicators of al qaeda surveillance' in most of the 'indicators' it could be anybody and to support such a policy is equivilant to giving up your right to personal security. if you read the document you posted and its possible applications/intpretations it is complete foolishness and gives an over zealous rent-a-cop the leeway to abuse you right to personal security, as if its doesnt happen enough already as a genuine mistake.

 

btw, the date on the document was mar 20/03.

[+catcher24]

DAve and Jaime - "most of the 'indicators' it could be anybody" = that is WHY these documents are being disseminated. The terrorists COULD be almost anybody. Believe it or not, they try to blend in and not stick out. Amazingly enough, they refuse to carry signs around indicating they are terrorists. I guess if I lived in Newfoundland I wouldn't be too concerned, either. However, since I live in New York, and a terrorist cell was located 50 miles from where I live, I'm glad that people are paying attention. Incidentally, I'm a little curious where Clonezone got the info, since those are distributed to law enforcement.

 

Catcher24

"You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." Jim Bouton

[dave and jaime]

just because i live in newfoundland doesnt mean that im not concerned, remember what happened 9/11 and where most of the flights destined for amercia ended up, in my province on my tax dollars, free to you as amercians.

 

as for terrorist being almost anybody, your right, but does that give the government the right to use what amounts to racial profiling? my comments were meant as an opinion as to how the government were trying to group potential terrorists, not to the actual treatment of terrorists.

 

i guess a question for you, would you be happy if you were detained because some security personell at a 'sensitive' hydro-electric site thought that by taking a picture your were a terrorist? incidentially, i dont think you have any civil liberties if detained under this act, do you?

 

btw, id think you d be pleased with newfoundland as we make your lights come on every day!

[+Breaktrack]

quote:

---

as for terrorist being almost anybody, your right, but does that give the government the right to use what amounts to racial profiling? my comments were meant as an opinion as to how the government were trying to group potential terrorists, not to the actual treatment of terrorists.

---

 

Yup, I knew this was going to be where it was heading.... the "racial profiling" card has now been thrown....lol.

 

When you have no valid arguement, acuse us of not being "politically correct", then we'll shut up and feel guilty..right? Sorry, I don't feel guilty. We are at war with terrorism. In war you DO give up some rights TEMPORARILY! It is a standard American tactic to prosecute a war against enemies of the United States who will use our own rights against us in order to kill us. Sorry to dissapoint you, but I don't mind a little invasion of my penny anty privacy to serve a larger cause. Once we win, just like in the past, our liberties are once again restored to FULL compliance with the U. S. Constitution. That's the strength of our system, that we can expect, and demand, that our rights not be abridged unless there's a dadgum good reason for it, but if they need to be they are restored as soon as possible.

 

What an ego one would have to have to believe his right to walk unmolested outweighs the needs of our society to protect itself in times such as these. I have faith in our system, I have faith in America, that when we get things back under control, our rights will no longer need to be "adjusted" and we will be back to our normal, obnoxious selves in no time.

 

If you don't undertstand what I mean, think about this: how has the war in Iraq, or even in Afghanistan affected your life? I mean, directly, not in some abstract way, i.e. (Oh, I'm so distraught over those poor innocent terrorists...). I mean, how has your job changed, how has your dinner each night been affected, have you had to stop Geocaching because of the mortar rounds falling around you? Are coalition or Iraqi aircraft targeting your vehicle in your driveway? Any tanks sitting in your street outside your house?

 

OF COURSE NOT!!! Now THAT would have some affect on your RIGHT to move around without being questioned...sheesh. To have some guy ask you a couple of questions about what you're doing is NOTHING!!!! You should be thanking your lucky stars you have someone out there who gives enough of a crap about his job to actually ASK you those questions.... for crying out loud....

 

What a bunch of whiny little elitist crybabies..... "Oh, oh, I've been picked on by the 'authorities', reminds me of the Monty Python routine in Quest for the Holy Grail, "Help, Help, I'm being Oppressed!!!"

 

Give me a break......

 

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

[dave and jaime]

man, this has gotten off topic...

 

breaktrack:

 

my comments werent meant as anti-government, pro terrorist, or anti-legislation. my comments were simply a opinion of how one particular individuals harassment of another was being justified by a 'departmental policy'. having said that i agree that there are times when my rights must be abridged, are these the times, as you described? no.

 

this topic started of as a posting of one cacher being questioned by someone who had a bug up his butt and a swelled head. was the engineer right, of course not. had the cacher in actual fact been a terrorist, would the engineer been right then, of course not. no matter what the situation the agrieved person has certain rights and the onus is on the state to show guilt, not on the agrieved to show innocence.

 

anyway, my thought is that by letting the state 'abridge' our rights we are letting the terrorists win, its over folks they won already.

 

nobody has answered my question of what rights a person has if detained under the anti-terrorist legislation, some clarification please.

[+Breaktrack]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Birds & Bikes:

Today while searching for a cache just east of the Copan Reservoir dam (northern Washington Co., Okla.) we were interrogated by a member of the Corp. of Engineers. He stated we were "acting suspiciously on Federal lands." The gentleman went on to explain that we were subject to arrest, detention and interrogation by the FBI if he chose to "make the call."

 

Fortunately, we were not detained; however we were advised to warn other geocachers. Due to the international environment and US terrorist "security alert level C", many Federal sites are restricted. This includes dam sites operated by the Corp of Engineers, or any Federal lands. Please keep this in mind.

---

 

Well, I guess you're right, it looks like this individual was extremely out of line! He must have SOME nerve to be asking questions of these individuals, especially Geocachers!!! Doesn't he know who we are by golly!! How DARE he????

 

I still don't get it? Nowhere did the individual in this post say anything was so far out of line as you folks have made it sound... just more leftist utopian crap about your "rights" being violated because someone might have been suspicious and decided to act on the suspicions rather than turn their head and ignore them.

 

What I am saying is you people are waaaaaaaaaay too sensitive... out of all proportion to what is going on. I am a serving police officer. I have been for over 20 years. I know what your rights are, and I know what my rights are. I also know what my duty is and you oversensitive little free spirits will NOT keep me from doing my duty regardless of how many "feelings" I bruise. Almost every police officer I know or have worked with have a very simple philosophy - "I am as nice to people as they ALLOW me to be" and it works out very, very well. Therefore, if I am doing my DUTY and I have to question you, I will start out in as professional and polite manner as possible. BUT, if you do not respond in kind I will take charge and ensure my actions do not let the situation deteriorate out of control. You can count on that. If in the process I can protect your rights to the nth degree, I will, but your rights do not take precedence over the safety of the general public, other officers, or even me. If you are in an area where your actions deem you to be "acting suspicious" then try to explain yourself and allow the individual ( the "evil" authority figure) to do their job. After dealing with a bunch of mealy mouthed people who can do nothing but complain about people actually trying to protect them so they'll be alive to enjoye their "rights" I'd probably be in a mood like his was from all indications.

 

I actually thought the original poster was simply letting you people know to be careful around dams that fall under the auspices of the Corp of Engineers, but you all have turned it into an anti-authority rant about how being questioned is against your rights..... sheesh, I think my eyes are starting to bleed....

 

I'm done with ya.... next time you're in trouble and need help, call a dadgum Hippie for crying out loud...

 

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

[+1911]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Breaktrack:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Birds & Bikes:

Today while searching for a cache just east of the Copan Reservoir dam (northern Washington Co., Okla.) we were interrogated by a member of the Corp. of Engineers. He stated we were "acting suspiciously on Federal lands." The gentleman went on to explain that we were subject to arrest, detention and interrogation by the FBI if he chose to "make the call."

 

Fortunately, we were not detained; however we were advised to warn other geocachers. Due to the international environment and US terrorist "security alert level C", many Federal sites are restricted. This includes dam sites operated by the Corp of Engineers, or any Federal lands. Please keep this in mind.

---

 

Well, I guess you're right, it looks like this individual was extremely out of line! He must have SOME nerve to be asking questions of these individuals, especially Geocachers!!! Doesn't he know who we are by golly!! How DARE he????

 

I still don't get it? Nowhere did the individual in this post say anything was so far out of line as you folks have made it sound... just more leftist utopian crap about your "rights" being violated because someone might have been suspicious and decided to act on the suspicions rather than turn their head and ignore them.

 

What I am saying is you people are waaaaaaaaaay too sensitive... out of all proportion to what is going on. I am a serving police officer. I have been for over 20 years. I know what your rights are, and I know what my rights are. I also know what my duty is and you oversensitive little free spirits will NOT keep me from doing my duty regardless of how many "feelings" I bruise. Almost every police officer I know or have worked with have a very simple philosophy - "I am as nice to people as they ALLOW me to be" and it works out very, very well. Therefore, if I am doing my DUTY and I have to question you, I will start out in as professional and polite manner as possible. BUT, if you do not respond in kind I will take charge and ensure my actions do not let the situation deteriorate out of control. You can count on that. If in the process I can protect your rights to the nth degree, I will, but your rights do not take precedence over the safety of the general public, other officers, or even me. If you are in an area where your actions deem you to be "acting suspicious" then try to explain yourself and allow the individual ( the "evil" authority figure) to do their job. After dealing with a bunch of mealy mouthed people who can do nothing but complain about people actually trying to protect them so they'll be alive to enjoye their "rights" I'd probably be in a mood like his was from all indications.

 

I actually thought the original poster was simply letting you people know to be careful around dams that fall under the auspices of the Corp of Engineers, but you all have turned it into an anti-authority rant about how being questioned is against your rights..... sheesh, I think my eyes are starting to bleed....

 

I'm done with ya.... next time you're in trouble and need help, call a dadgum Hippie for crying out loud...

 

http://www.texasgeocaching.com

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

---

 

Dude!...have you ever considered switching to a decaffeinted brand? :confused

[+Breaktrack]

 

Dude!...have you ever considered switching to a decaffeinted brand? :confused

 

 

(Shhhhhhh, I'm having fun, c'mon.... hehehehe)

 

 

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

[+GrizzlyJohn]

So long as we are this far off topic ...

 

I don't consider myself a hippie or some kind of free spirit. I just think it is important to protect my rights any and all times. If you want to give up your rigts fine. But there is no way I am going to let you decide that for me. Once our rights are "temporarily" taken away what makes you think they are going to be given back. Wouldn't that just open the door again to those who would use those rights we enjoy against us?

 

Lincoln trampled all over the rights of citizens in this country and we are to this day still paying the price for that. More recently we have seen what happens when people that are given too much authority abuse it, can anybody say Ruby Ridge or Waco?

 

I don't have a problem with racial profiling. Go back and look at all the people that have committed acts of terrorism over the past couple of years. You know what, almost all have been done by middle eastern males between the ages of 25-35 or so. Let's start giving those people a real hard look. Of course we can't do that because we don't dare offend anybody. I say start offending them right at the border and don't let them in. I am sick and tired of giving these people the chance to come here suck everything they can from this country and then go back to their hole in the sand and plot against the evil infidels.

 

My point was and is that I am polite but don't feel any need to give any authority any more details then they need. If they stop and ask what I am doing my answer is looking around. Thats all they need to know. If they think I am doing something wrong then they will have to push the issue. I for one am more than willing to do the dance with these people.

 

It has become so easy to say we have to give a up a little bit because of the times we are in. That is a load of crap. That becomes a very slippery slope.

 

If people of authority want to really do something then stop bothering some Goober wandering around in the woods and go bother the gangs standing around on the corner selling drugs. But no that won't happen because those people are actually dangerous and they might start shooting. It is a lot safer to be a pain in the butt of the average Joe because he has been brainwashed into rolling over at the first sign of authority. No sir, if I am not doing anything wrong then leave me alone. And I am not going to help you try to figure out if I am doing anything right or wrong. You are the trained professional you figure it out.

 

In the end you have the guns and badges. If you think you are right in using it then go ahead. But don't be on some power trip thinking you can question me becuase we are at war. I just begin to get a little concerned when a police officer is saying that we have to give up some of our rights. I thought those are the people that are supposed to make sure we get to exercise our rights.

[+Breaktrack]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

So long as we are this far off topic ...

 

I don't consider myself a hippie or some kind of free spirit.

 

In the end you have the guns and badges. If you think you are right in using it then go ahead. But don't be on some power trip thinking you can question me becuase we are at war. I just begin to get a little concerned when a police officer is saying that we have to give up some of our rights. I thought those are the people that are supposed to make sure we get to exercise our rights.

---

 

LOL, okay, now that I've gotten everyone to the actual point I was trying to make, we can see how outrageous the interpretation of the original post was for the most part. My two other posts were an effort to show the opposite end of the spectrum of what I was seeing.

 

On the one hand it appears the original poster was simply letting everyone know that officials in charge of areas such as the dam he mentioned were being concientious about watching their area of responsibility and would not hesitate to question you if they thought they should, as obviously they did.

 

So, the next thing I see is, "Oh, he was just being a jerk," etc, etc, etc. To me that was an overreaction to the circumstances as laid out in the original post. Certainly it is feasible the officer/engineer/slug/whatever was heavy handed (maybe because he was alone, no backup, confronting more than one person in a suspicious situation, who knows), or it might be the poster simply didn't express the details of the confrontation adequately? I don't know, I wasn't there, but neither were any of the rest of you. So the speculation that the authority figure was rude/unprofessional/heavy handed, etc, seemed to be a bit of a leap, but one commonly made even without adequate evidence.

 

So, I posted a pair of purposely provocative responses in an effort to point out that it can be looked at from different perspectives, maybe the person who questioned them thought they were a couple of jerks as well? Perhaps he didn't.... perhaps he walked away thinking, "Hmmm, those guys seemed okay, no threat there."

 

You made a couple of pretty good points overall, hopefully you can see how some flexibility is actually a good thing though, rather than a rigid interpretation of ethereal concepts. I know we have rights, guaranteed to us by the constitution, and I am dadgum glad we do. "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness", right? Well, they are rights because we say they are rights, because individuals have fought, and died, to ensure they stay our rights. But no one ever fought or died to ensure we could abuse those rights, or abuse the rights of others. Maybe you get my point, maybe not, either way, it's been quite enjoyable to poke with the stick and see what response I get. Everyone did quite well actually. Good job.

 

Maybe I haven't wasted my time protecting you after all....LOL.

 

 

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

[+catcher24]

DAve and Jaime - You are certainly entitled to your opinion, regardless of how I feel about it - THAT is the definition of freedom of speech. However, I take exception to some of your comments: I don't understand how the flights had anything to do with your tax dollars? They originated in Boston, MA (part of the US last I knew) and were destined for Los Angeles, CA. Anyway, NOTHING that comes via Canada is free down here - we all pay, one way or another (BTW, I love Canada. I think it is a great country, and one of our staunchest allies). NO, I would not be offended at all if someone sees me at a hydro or other plant taking pictures and asked me porfessinally and courteously what I was doing, particularly in these times. A couple minutes to explain could ease a lot of worry. Finally, what do you mean, you turn my lights on? My city has it's own hydro/coal generating plant which supplies ALL of our needs and additional to sell. Even if we didn't have that here, the power in this part of the US comes from the hydro plants at Niagara Falls (USA). Again, you are entitled to your opinion, and best wishes to you.

 

Catcher24

"You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." Jim Bouton

[+Chichikov]

catcher24 - I should probably let Dave and Jaime explain their own comments, but I assume what they meant was that following the attacks of 9/11 when all planes in the air were grounded, many flights had to land at Gander, Newfoundland. There were a number of great stories written about the hospitality of the Newfies and how they took stranded passengers into their homes. They did the same in WWII when a lot of GIs were based there. A lot of the ties between Newfoundland and the U.S. stem from the number of marriages from this time. Also, the Gander airport gets a lot of business from planes that are forced to land due to "unruly" passengers. Now how's that for off-topic! From a federal lands warning to Newfoundland history...

 

---------------

Where am I going? I don't quite know.

What does it matter where people go?

Down to the wood where the blue-bells grow

Anywhere, anywhere. I don't know.

-A.A. Milne

[+The Leprechauns]

If it seems unfair that Newfoundland tax dollars were spent when flights were diverted there on 9/11, why don't we deny GPS satellite availability to Newfoundland and just call it even, since GPS was built with US tax dollars?

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

I was formerly employed by the Department of Redundancy Department, but I don't work there anymore.

[dave and jaime]

yeah chichikov you got it, i think there were about 200 flights grounded in newfoundland for that week. not that i feel that this is unfair but rather that there has been alot of give and take by our nations over the years.

 

as for making the lights come on, i was refering to the hydro-electric generating plant at churchill falls that sends electricity to the northeast us. i believe that this project sends 6000 MW hours of electricity annually, at less than market value through quebec, to the states.

[+Team Tecmage]

There are a lot of hard working people whose jobs get harder everytime we go to orange alert. On top of that, the folks in DC have not decided whether they're going to reimburse other government agencies for suppying additional security at nonfederal locations. We do need to give these folks a little room to work.

 

As far as the whole issue of racial profiling, I think we waste a lot of time trying to watch certain types of people, while allowing the Tim McVeighs and Ted Kaczynski of the world to go unnoticed until it's too late.

 

One of Bush's Secret Service Agents was denied access to a flight to Dallas because he LOOKED to be of Middle Eastern descent (which he was). The pilot refused to let him on the plane, and the airline backed him up.

 

Let's not hide behind 9/11, or allow people prejudices to rule us.

[+Renegade Knight]

I've got a story and some other junk to contribute here.

 

First the other Junk. Idaho maintains a homepage the the Bureau of Disaster Services keeps updated. On it is a 'current situation report'. It gives the homeland security report. Used Avant go to put this page on my PDA then checked it. Near here is a thermal power generating plant (gas fired I do belive) by the name of Jim Bridger. When I checked out this homepage it had a report that someone had sabatoged 5 towers at the site. This did not make the news. You can imagine how large the towers are at a power generating station just for the sheer amount of voltage that these things run. Most transimssion lines are 230,000 volts or more (I may have my power numbers off). The towers are huge. Whoever knocked them down had to do a lot of work. This type of vandalizem is not distinguisable from terrorism. If not for the homepage I'd not of known that things were happening close to where I live.

 

Now for the story.

 

I went to place a cache on snowy day. The hillside was burnt from the prior summer and my daughter was with me as we parked along side the road and hiked up the hill.

 

Half way up I hear someone yelling at me. So I trek down yelling at him giving the standard 'non' answer that I give. But he would not go away. Finally I get down to his truck and decide that I might as well tell him about goecaching. When I do he stops being so gruff and actually likes the idea so I tell him about geocaching.com and what I'm going to call the cache I'm placing. Before he pulled away he told me what he saw through his eyes.

 

An out of area truck (I just moved here) pulled over on side of the road on a day when nobody would be hiking with a man and a young girl heading off into the woods...

 

We all know geocachers do things like that and that often our kids like this as much as we do and go with us.

 

Still to see it from his perspective was an eye opener.

 

Oh and in the summer with a tan I also look like I'm of arab decent but have no clue if I am or not. A good old American mutt that's me. And I'd not hold it agasint anyone if I fit a profile. That's what profiles are for. But they dadgum well better figure out that I'm not a terrorist pretty dadgum quick when they check me out. A profile is a tool, no more, no less. It has to be used correctly, but it has to be used to be effective. I'm sick of all the whining about "profiling" being racial. If race is a valid factor in creating a usefull profile then it is. Period. No need for popular psychology (normally wrong) to stick it's ugly politically correct head in.

[dave and jaime]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Tecmage (R&T):

There ....to rule us.

---

 

great comment!

 

as for knights story, i can relate. if a member of the public takes it upon themselves to interject thats one thing, but for the state to develop policy guidelines to try and categorize/predict potential criminals/terrorists thats another thing.

 

again, does anybody know if a person detained under the new anti-terror laws has any rights?

[+1911]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dave and jaime:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Tecmage (R&T):

There ....to rule us.

---

 

 

again, does anybody know if a person detained under the new anti-terror laws has any rights?

---

 

...if you aren't a citizen,you can be held indefinetly without any charges.

 

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/l110101a.html

 

here is a link to read,if you like it,do a search on "the patriot act 2"

[+flask]

i got little patience with profiling and paranoia.

 

i'm for civil liberties, and i'll bet you a nickle i get landed in prison by the time it's all over.

 

i was detained last week. why?

 

i was taking pictures of a railroad bridge.

 

it was a pretty railroad bridge, and it had a benchmark on it.

 

what i WANTED to say to the nice officer was "i care not one bit for the president, his war, nor YOUR state of heightened alert. i got important things to do here. i'm playing GAMES. now get out of my way."

 

but i didn't say it. one of these days i'm sure my impulse control will fail, and i'll end up held without hearing.

 

one of my caches was confiscated by the border patrol. (it's in a border crossing town) they returned it to its place, but still.

 

i am grumpy about this. in the meantime, i sing, i dance, i laugh, and i play games. it's important.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

[dave and jaime]

ooh, wow!!!

 

thanks 1911. is this going a bit overboard?

[+1911]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dave and jaime:

ooh, wow!!!

 

thanks 1911. is this going a bit overboard?

---

 

Some folks think so.Others think that any price to pay for safety is not too high.Then there is the majority who just don't care as long as it doesn't affect their lives.

This quote by Ben Franklin is one of my personal favorites..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 

sorry about drifting this thread off topic,I will quit now.

[+Byron & Anne]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1911:

 

From an earlier post -- If you are in an area where your actions deem you to be "acting suspicious" then try to explain yourself and allow the individual ( the "evil" authority figure) to do their job.

 

Others think that any price to pay for safety is not too high.

 

This quote by Ben Franklin is one of my personal favorites..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 

.

---

 

It appears to me that Ben Franklin's quote and yours are in direct contridiction. Are you saying that you, "The Authority", have all the liberties and rights, but rest of us need to bow to you and sacrafice out liberties for your tempory safety?

 

Byron

[+1911]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Byron & Anne:

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1911:

 

>---{From an earlier post -- If you are in an area where your actions deem you to be "acting suspicious" then try to explain yourself and allow the individual ( the "evil" authority figure) to do their job.}<---you need to find out who actually wrote this Byron

 

Others think that any price to pay for safety is not too high.

 

This quote by Ben Franklin is one of my personal favorites..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 

.

---

 

It appears to me that Ben Franklin's quote and yours are in direct contridiction. Are you saying that you, "The Authority", have all the liberties and rights, but rest of us need to bow to you and sacrafice out liberties for your tempory safety?

 

Byron

---

 

Well Byron,

First off you're barking up the wrong tree,the quote you subscribe to me(I put brackets around the incorrect quote)was not typed by me.Maybe you should direct your question at the correct author.

[+Byron & Anne]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1911:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Byron & Anne:

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1911:

 

>---{From an earlier post -- If you are in an area where your actions deem you to be "acting suspicious" then try to explain yourself and allow the individual ( the "evil" authority figure) to do their job.}<---you need to find out who actually wrote this Byron

 

Others think that any price to pay for safety is not too high.

 

This quote by Ben Franklin is one of my personal favorites..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 

.

---

 

It appears to me that Ben Franklin's quote and yours are in direct contridiction. Are you saying that you, "The Authority", have all the liberties and rights, but rest of us need to bow to you and sacrafice out liberties for your tempory safety?

 

Byron

---

 

Well Byron,

First off you're barking up the wrong tree,the quote you subscribe to me(I put brackets around the incorrect quote)was not typed by me.Maybe you should direct your question at the correct author.

---

 

Man, I appologize. I guess I completely missed that you were quoting somebody else. I need to not respond to these things so late at night I guess. After rereading above, I don't think that original author (Breaktrack) would approve of the Ben Franklin quote. I like the quote, thanks for reminding us of it.

 

Once angain, I'm really sorry.

 

Byron

[+Jpjazz]

Drive a Tractor onto the Washington mall and park it in a fountain. Now that is acting suspicious!

 

We just need use a little common sense, stay away from dams, airports, military bases, etc. My 2 Cents. Jpjazz

[+Breaktrack]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Byron & Anne:

 

Man, I appologize. I guess I completely missed that you were quoting somebody else. I need to not respond to these things so late at night I guess. After rereading above, I don't think that original author (Breaktrack) would approve of the Ben Franklin quote. I like the quote, thanks for reminding us of it.

 

Once angain, I'm really sorry.

 

Byron

---

 

We understand Byron, it's a difficult subject to expound on and keep track of the responses, LOL.

 

On the other hand, if people are going to quote the founding fathers, I wish they'd get the quote right. Please research first rather than quoting off the top of your head. (This to no one in particular).

 

As for the "quote" of Ben Franklin's, if you take it out of context it can be used in any way you wish, just as the individual has who quoted it. Ben Franklin was living in perilous times, where the very freedom of the country was at stake. The freedom of the ENTIRE country. Ben Franklin was not talking about a single individual's security, or liberty, but the trading of the country's security as opposed to the country's liberty from England.

 

Regardless, in no way do I advocate giving up the right to speak out and tell the government what you think, whether you agree with what's done or not. I don't advocate you surrender your right to walk where you want, or go anywhere, regardless of your race, color or creed. I am simply saying that you pay certain professionals to render your daily existence as safe as possible, while recognizing that NOONE can make you totally safe, and that we not then impede their execution of that duty while at the same time holding them strictly responsible when something happens while their hands are tied behind their back.

 

You can't have it both ways. There has to be a happy medium. My opinion is we have to be flexible in where the happy medium falls during times of higher threat. When life is good and I have no need to be suspicious of some individual taking pictures of a railroad bridge, I am a happy, happy puppy. But when things are a bit more stringent and I am told by the society I work for, "We expect you to do everything in your power to keep us safe," but then give me no means to do so, or restricts my means to the extent that I can only respond AFTER they run planes into the buildings, then the arguement is moot.

 

Giving up rights is not the issue, being flexilbe about being stopped and questioned is. I in no way mean to infer that any professional should be allowed to be rude or overbearing in the exercise of their authority in order to make things safer. But let me assure you, having done this for over 20 years, some of you make it very, very difficult to be polite when dealing with you. Please recognize that the individual asking the questions is just as much a person as you, just as much a citizen, and has just as much at risk when it comes to rights. I have the same rights you do, and I do not have to put up with an antagonistic attitude just because you "feel" I should not be "hassling" you. It's my job to ask questions more than any other aspect. I really don't care if you feel I should be asking them, "I" know I should be asking them.

 

Just consider both sides of the coin, that's all I'm asking.

 

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.