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So, did you bring protection?


exConn

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Geocaching is a pretty harmless activity. But since it does take you to places of isolation, I was curious as to whether you bring protection with you or not.

 

If you do, please reply after the poll and let us know what you bring along...

 

Note: By protection, I mean a defensive item. Don't be wise... icon_biggrin.gif

 

-exConn

 

[This message was edited by exConn on March 10, 2002 at 07:06 PM.]

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I am a little concerned about Mountain Lions in the San Francisco East Bay hills where I do most of my caching. I've seen their tracks a couple of times, and jogger got killed by one several years ago in the Sierra foothills. I also see rattle snakes from time to time. I usually carry hiking sticks on long hikes and I consider them protection. I've never needed to ward off a mountain lion or snake, but I use them frequently to ward off the most common danger here - poison oak! icon_biggrin.gif

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Originally posted by Robereno:

Most of the state parks I frequent don’t allow hand guns. I once had a ranger go through my gear looking for one. Guess I fit the profile. What ever that is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

"You're kidding! Isn't that illegal - to search your stuff without a warrant?"

 

 

Illegal, no, not if you give them permission. Sad? Yes. Just as sad as the fact that many state parks do forbid you to have a firearm. What good is a second ammendment if you can't carry anywhere but your home? Seems to me that when the forbid such things they are infringing on our rights. What if you run into a cougar, or a human predator? You are left at the mercy of animals that may see you as prey (Both 4 legged and 2 legged variety)

 

In general I don't carry, rarely go to areas where I feel the need, but when I do, when I go to remote areas where I am on my own should I run into something dangerous, I do, and I should have that right to keep myself and family safe, and not have to fear going places.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

What if you run into a cougar, or a human predator?


 

If I was killed by a cougar, bear, bolt of lightening, a tree falling on my head, or anything else considered death at the hands of nature, my family would miss me, but they'd be able to go on with their lives mostly intact.

 

If some guy killed me, they'd suffer a much greater loss, the feeling of safety amongst their own kind.

 

I look for caches in many of the same areas as PaulWhy, the jogger that was killed was a petite woman who reacted in exactly the wrong way.

 

I have made the old "better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" decision on a few occasions.

It was never an issue of wildlife though.

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Well, he may have been looking for drugs as well. He started by looking in my shoes which were sitting outside the tent then moved on to the pack. While he was doing it he was making conversation about my gear. Things like, “Wow, you don’t see boots like that anymore” and “Man, people just aren’t using exterior frame packs these days”. OK, it could have been innocent but I have several family members in law enforcement and his methods reminded me of the methods they’ve described about officers trying to search without searching. Not trying to start a rant here. Maybe I was being paranoid.

 

quote:
Originally posted by laraley:

You're kidding! Isn't that illegal - to search your stuff without a warrant?


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Most times I don't worry about it, but several times I wish I had one, especially in the back country. Solo'd glacier NP in MT, didn't have one, had the bear spray but didn't exactly feel safe when I heard them outside my tent.

Just went backpacking with a bunch of guys from work last weekend. There was a bear rumaging around the lean to's there were 5 of us so I wasn't worried but you should have scene those guys freak (3 of them usually carry and none of them were at the time). Like I said if I had one I'd definately carry it where I could, especially south of here (not anything in Erie, besides some dogs or something) in the back country.

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Hi,

When I frist started hiking and Geocaching, I had read a thread about how multifunctional some folks' walking sticks were. I made mine myself, and made it to double as a weapon if needed. It's 5 1/2 feet long, solid 2 inch dowel wittled down at the end to a point that is topped of with a large, pointy countersunk screw. I made this after hiking in NJ, and coming across some bear tracks. It's fairly formidable.

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Tracy and I have talked about this more than once. On our trip to crack the century mark in caches, we were more than a little scared to find a cache hanging from a tree and nearly blown in half! We were in a small county park, with nothing to protect us if someone came out there intent on trouble.

 

We aren't considering a firearm (although a Desert Eagle has a certain appeal), but we are considering something more than the substanial than the metal hiking sticks we use. I hear there are Russian T-62s available cheap. icon_smile.gif

 

Richard and Tracy

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I envy you guy that actually get to hunt caches in wilderness with predetors big enough to be a threat to human. Here in Ohio the meanest critter we got is a grumpy racoon. We do have Coyotes but they are exceptionaly wary of humans. I have seen lots of sign but only actually seen them 3-4 times. Every once in a while in the south east corner of the state someone sees a black bear or two but it is usually just a female coming into Ohio to have her cubs and then she head back into PA or WV. Not to mention most if not all parks here in Ohio would not allow you to carry even if you could justify it.

 

Enjoy

mcb

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This month in "Journal of Trauma" published a study from the Harvard School of Public Health.

 

If you have a firearm in the house your chidlren 5 to 14 years old are twice as likely to commit suicide and three times more likely to die from firearm homocide.

Reverse causation was factored in, "unsafe areas thus more guns thus more fatalities". They looked at poverty, education urbinaization. It all still added up to guns in the house increase accidental death, homicide and suicide of children 5 to 14.

 

There was a tight correlation with states that have high gun ownership with high levels of dead children. Non-firearm suicides and homocides had no correlation.

 

According to Miller (author), "the danger of guns is not that they somehow cause people to act more violently- it is simply that people will be far more succesful at killing themselves or someone else with a gun.

 

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The irony of exConn posting this poll doesn't escape me icon_razz.gif

 

After consulting Law and Order (meaning, this is a guess), I believe that no, the police officer does not have the right to search you unless there is "probable cause," whatever that means. However, the officer can detain you until a warrant can be obtained and then you can be searched.

 

I don't know if the ranger has those same rights.

 

Regarding protection, at first I was naive enough to think you meant a large stick or a can of mace. Although I'm a pretty good shot (competition in high school, marksman in the USAF), the thought of carrying a sidearm offends me. I rarely go out alone, however, and am of course male. Perhaps if I was in the backcountry and used the weapon for hunting and survival, I would bring it along. In a local park? Never.

 

Jeremy

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there are too many legal obstacle to overcome in order to carry my weapons. That being said, I am an avid shooter, both rifles and handguns, both in competition and for recreation. I have never carried a firearm when geocaching for protection against a human being. I am 6'4" and 250lbs, frankly I am not concerned about my safety in that way. On the other hand I do always have my Browning lock blade knife with me, mostly for utility. It has come in handy several times, luckily never in defense of myself. While I am not concerned about other people, things like bears and rattlesnakes concern me. I always carry a walking stick when I am in snake country, and despite the laws, if I am camping overnight in bear country, I rest assured knowing there is a .45 in my backpack.

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I bring my attack dalmation, and a hefty walking stick complete with martial arts knowledge of how to use it. I figure no one can use the dog against me like they could a gun. Not to mention her great ability to smell any wild life that might come my way.

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Being female and out in the desert alone frequently, I have thought about a gun. It is nervous-making to be hiking somewhere where you are sure there are NO people to come on a pick-up truck full of guys drinking beer and shooting cans. I generally just walk away very very quietly.

 

Last week I took a friend out to hide caches and to hunt for her first one. We were coming across open desert back to my car when we saw a pick-up coming down the road towards the road where I was parked. We ducked behind some bushes and just waited. The truck drove past, then turned around and came back to the road where my rig was parked. We waited. They waited. After a long while, the sun was getting lower by the second, they drove off.

 

Now for such a simingly innocent incidence we were quite nervous. What would we have done if they had approached my car closer and then waited? We talked about handguns but never really came to any conclusion if one would made us safer or bolder or deader.

 

Somehow when I take her husband out geocaching, I don't have the same concerns. That is more a sad comment on our society than anything I think.

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I don't carry a projectile weapon of any sorts when geocaching nor do I own one (and not just because they are not allowed where I live). But this doesn't mean that I'm not prepared to ensure my safety every time that I am out and about geocaching in the backwoods. :~) Killers in the woods don't scare me as much as banjos and hippies with an agenda. icon_wink.gif

 

-IC

 

______________________

Iron Chef

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Since I live in NJ, home of some of the most restrictive firearm laws in the country (as told to me by the BATF agent interviewing me for a federal permit) a permit to carry is almost impossible to obtain.

I do carry several knives, as well as a can of pro-strength pepper spray.

 

Illegitimus non carborundum!

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quote:
This month in "Journal of Trauma" published a study from the Harvard School of Public Health...


 

Paul, with all due respect, this is a load of crap. The authors go into the study knowing what they want to publish and make certain they get the numbers they want. It's a political issue, not a scientific one. Researchers do this all the time with other dangerous items like SUVs, eggs, coffee, and cell phones.

 

I understand that Harvard is a fine institution, but being in Massachusetts, it's doubtful that its researchers are truly unbiased. I don't accept the results of this study any more than I would a study published by the NRA.

 

I own hunting weapons and several handguns. I _am not_ a member of the NRA because they frighten me as much as the anti-gun lobby. I keep my weapons in a locked steel cabinet with trigger locks on all of them. I plan to introduce my son to responsible gun use when he is ready. Until that time, the guns are unloaded and inaccessable.

 

Having said all that, I rarely take anything with me for protection beyond a heavy stick. Most of the caches I've visited are in city or regional parks and I have little fear for my safety from other humans. If I have to worry about my safety or the safety of my family while geocaching, I'll give it up.

 

-E

 

--

N35°32.981 W98°34.631

13914_200.jpg

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The sad part about this thread is the fact that we actually need to consider self protection from other people.

 

Several of the forest preserves in my area have become a hang out for people with questionalble ethical standards. I have pretty much come to know the ones to avoid.

 

So far I haven't carried anything for self protection, but may consider pepper spray and a nicely built walking stick.

 

Weezer

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

 

Regarding protection, at first I was naive enough to think you meant a large stick or a can of mace.


 

No, no. My poll was not intended to just mean firearms (maybe I should have been more clear), but any item you bring as defense. I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of firearm replies.

 

For the record, I do not use nor own a firearm myself. My answer to the poll would be "Not yet. I never have, but keep thinking maybe I should." I'm not really too concerned, but I've been thinking of having at least an all purpose hiking stick as some have mentioned.

 

Side note: I did not post this poll with the intent to stir up guns rights or safety issues. I'm hoping this will stay on topic... icon_wink.gif

 

-exConn

 

What is Project Virginia?

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quote:
Originally posted by Tecmage (R&T):

We aren't considering a firearm (although a Desert Eagle has a certain appeal)


I can't be the only one to snicker at that, isn't the Desert Eagle usually in .50AE?

As long as Diane Feinstein feels the need to carry, I won't judge others for doing so.

 

I'm a little nervous about geocaching by myself too far from anyone I know. You just never know when something can go wrong and if nobody is around to hear your cries for help, than a gun won't help much either.

 

I guess you could fire it as a signal for help, but the last thing I would do if I were to hear a gun going off is to rush in that direction. YMMV

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quote:
Originally posted by TresOkies:

quote:
This month in "Journal of Trauma" published a study from the Harvard School of Public Health...


 

Paul, with all due respect, this is a load of crap. The authors go into the study knowing what they want to publish and make certain they get the numbers they want. It's a political issue, not a scientific one. Researchers do this all the time with other dangerous items like SUVs, eggs, coffee, and cell phones.

 

I understand that Harvard is a fine institution, but being in Massachusetts, it's doubtful that its researchers are truly unbiased. I don't accept the results of this study any more than I would a study published by the NRA.

 

I own hunting weapons and several handguns. I _am not_ a member of the NRA because they frighten me as much as the anti-gun lobby. I keep my weapons in a _locked steel cabinet with trigger locks on all of them_. I plan to introduce my son to responsible gun use when he is ready. Until that time, the guns are unloaded and inaccessable.

 

Having said all that, I rarely take anything with me for protection beyond a heavy stick. Most of the caches I've visited are in city or regional parks and I have little fear for my safety from other humans. If I have to worry about my safety or the safety of my family while geocaching, I'll give it up.

 

-E

 

--

N35°32.981 W98°34.631

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/avatar/13914_200.jpg


 

Could not agree with you more. I just hope thread dosn't turn into a "gun control issues" thread. YIKES. I want to geocache.

 

"My gps say's it RIGHT HERE".

http://www.geogadgets.com

1240 plus miles and only 8 caches?

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quote:
Originally posted by Pocket PC Guy / team GeoMurph:

Hi,

When I frist started hiking and Geocaching, I had read a thread about how multifunctional some folks' walking sticks were. I made mine myself, and made it to double as a weapon if needed. It's 5 1/2 feet long, solid 2 inch dowel wittled down at the end to a point that is topped of with a large, pointy countersunk screw. I made this after hiking in NJ, and coming across some bear tracks. It's fairly formidable.


 

That, my friend, is a bear tooth pick.

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quote:
I'm a little nervous about geocaching by myself too far from anyone I know. You just never know when something can go wrong and if nobody is around to hear your cries for help, than a gun won't help much either.

 

Busted! icon_wink.gif (There's a .44 model line as well.) My point is I sometimes think about getting a firearm for protection as Tracy and I have been in some rather secluded spots Geocaching where we have not felt comfortable. At these times, a firearm probably isn't the answer, but we are considering something besides the poles we carry.

 

Richard

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quote:
Originally posted by TresOkies:

quote:
This month in "Journal of Trauma" published a study from the Harvard School of Public Health...


 

Paul, with all due respect, this is a load of crap. The authors go into the study knowing what they want to publish and make certain they get the numbers they want. It's a political issue, not a scientific one. Researchers do this all the time with other dangerous items like SUVs, eggs, coffee, and cell phones.


 

I politely disagree. You are right, anyone can take a bunch of numbers, call them statistics, draw up an hypothesis, come to a conclusion. That is where a majority of the crap called "statistics" or "studies" comes from on the internet.

 

That is why we have scientists doing hypothesis driven research. That is what these researchers did. If you do not believe in the scientific method then I can't argue the numbers.

 

But in 1999 (last full report) there were 489 kids in the United States that because they were killed by a firearm will never celebrate their 15th birthday.

For unadulterated numbers start here:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/firearms.htm

 

Those numbers aren't crap. They're real numbers, real kids, real coffins (small), real grieving mothers.

I grew up around guns, was taught how to use them safely. By the time I was 14 my brothers and I had gone through the 15,000 rounds of 9mm my dad got from I think a Korean war special sale. We had an M1 carbine, 357 Magnum Highway patrolman with varmint scope, 9mm Luger with shoulder stock, 9mm Browning automatic, S&W 38, An assortment of shotguns, 12 and 20g side/side, over and under and pump. Made all our own shotgun shells. An assortment of musket loaders, made are own bullets. Never a mishap. That is an anecdotal story which means nothing.

 

Just stating facts that possibly might prevent someone from purchasing a handgun to feel safer in their state park when actually they might be increasing the chance that their kid will accidentally (or on purpose) get killed with it.

 

The coffee statistics I also agreed with: people over the age of 50 who drink two or more cups of coffee have twice as much sex as non-coffee drinkers. I'm working on my third cup of the day right now. icon_wink.gif I want to be up to a quart a day by the time I'm fifty.

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison WaylandersMA:

This month in "Journal of Trauma" published a study from the Harvard School of Public Health.

 

If you have a firearm in the house your chidlren 5 to 14 years old are twice as likely to commit suicide and three times more likely to die from firearm homocide.

Reverse causation was factored in, "unsafe areas thus more guns thus more fatalities". They looked at poverty, education urbinaization. It all still added up to guns in the house increase accidental death, homicide and suicide of children 5 to 14.

 

There was a tight correlation with states that have high gun ownership with high levels of dead children. Non-firearm suicides and homocides had no correlation.

 

According to Miller (author), "the danger of guns is not that they somehow cause people to act more violently- it is simply that people will be far more succesful at killing themselves or someone else with a gun.


 

Yeah, and the AMA has become more well known for their anti-gun stance than for good medicine lately. This is probably a response to the article that was published a few years back stating that you were in more danger of getting harmed by a quack doctor than by a fire arm. The way it was written up was pretty humorous, I'll try to find it and post it here. icon_smile.gif

 

AtP

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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison WaylandersMA:

This month in "Journal of Trauma" published a study from the Harvard School of Public Health.

 

If you have a firearm in the house your chidlren 5 to 14 years old are twice as likely to commit suicide and three times more likely to die from firearm homocide.

*Snip*

According to Miller (author), "the danger of guns is not that they somehow cause people to act more violently- it is simply that people will be far more succesful at killing themselves or someone else with a gun.


 

You actually rely on emergency services to protect your family? Everyone knows emergency services are designed to respond to problems after they happen, not during. I think its crazy not to assume the responsibility of protecting your family. I love my family too much to trust their well being to someone else. I have the means to feed, shelter, comfort, and protect my family and friends at all times.

 

As far as Mr. Miller research… I think it’s crap.

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quote:
Originally posted by markl32:

That, my friend, is a bear tooth pick.


 

FWIW, there is a big difference between hunting a bear - IE, tracking it, sneaking up, and killing it with a firearm, and being endangered by a bear. If you think that even something fairly hefty, like a .306, makes you dramatically safer, think again.

 

Having seen a 'common' black bear (female) crush a man's spine with a single swipe within a few seconds of anyone even spotting it, I can personally attest that bears are even stronger and faster than you think. Few of us have both the training and luck to pull off world class shooting with a slung weapon in the 2-15 seconds that the bear uses to decide to strike.

 

The good news is that, statistically speaking, you are more likely to be accidentally shot by a hunter than attacked by a bear in most of the US. Shooting back at the hunters is probably illegal, though a jury in TX or MT would almost certainly acquit you... icon_wink.gif

 

Seriously, a legally owned and carried firearm is a personal choice, but don't let it lull you with a false sense of security or invulnerability. When a dangerous creature (2 or 4 legs) means you harm, it is often at the ready before you even know it is there, and as such has a distinct advantage. Better to learn to watch out for trouble and avoid it than to count on a weapon to bail you out after it begins.

 

Just my two cents...

 

-jjf

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Well being from Downunder we just use hand signals to tame the wild beasts (you must have seen Crocodile Dundee by now!) icon_smile.gif

 

But seriously...never had a gun, don't know anyone who has one, never even seen a hand gun (except the ones the police carry).

 

We obviously have a much safer world down here.

 

embi

 

It's out there...let's go get it!

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Sure bear are strong and fast but what in the world were you doing that close. If you know your in bear country you better make sure your making enough noise that the bears know you there too. For the most part bear do not hunt humans. If they attack it because you probable walked up on them and startled them. They are only defending themselves from a precieve threat. If you make enough noise then they will just slip away and you won't even see them. We smell bad and taste almost as bad to them. icon_biggrin.gif If you go sneeking around in bear country your asking for it.

 

As far as wielding the weapon. I probable couldn't get a large handgun out and fire in 2 seconds but I could in less than 5 and in 15 I could have emtied the entire gun puting most rounds on target. If your going to carry the gun you better know how to use it. It like your GPS if you don't know how to use it your just as lost as if you didn't have it at all.

 

mcb

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quote:
Originally posted by embi:

Well being from Downunder we just use hand signals to tame the wild beasts (you must have seen Crocodile Dundee by now!) icon_smile.gif

 

But seriously...never had a gun, don't know anyone who has one, never even seen a hand gun (except the ones the police carry).

 

We obviously have a much safer world down here.

 

embi

 

It's out there...let's go get it!


 

Reminds me of a local, Jerry, pointing out a "Blue Bottle". I asked him if a sting would hurt, he said "a bit..."

 

Payback was mine. About 3/8" (1 cm) of box jellyfish stinger brushed on my wrist between glove and wet suit on my next visit down under (long story in its own right). For the record, I wept like a baby. It felt like someone hit my wrist with a blow torch for almost an hour. I still carry a nasty allergic scar. But, when Jerry asked me on the phone if it had hurt, I simply replied, "a bit..."

 

The last time I checked Australia has more plants and animals in top-ten-most-dangerous lists than anywhere else on the planet.

 

Still, an amazing place. Certainly one of the friendliest.

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by mcb:

Sure bear are strong and fast but what in the world were you doing that close. If you know your in bear country you better make sure your making enough noise that the bears know you there too. For the most part bear do not hunt humans. If they attack it because you probable walked up on them and startled them. They are only defending themselves from a precieve threat. If you make enough noise then they will just slip away and you won't even see them. We smell bad and taste almost as bad to them. icon_biggrin.gif If you go sneeking around in bear country your asking for it.

 

As far as wielding the weapon. I probable couldn't get a large handgun out and fire in 2 seconds but I could in less than 5 and in 15 I could have emtied the entire gun puting most rounds on target. If your going to carry the gun you better know how to use it. It like your GPS if you don't know how to use it your just as lost as if you didn't have it at all.

 

mcb


 

I'm going to answer carefully, because a smiley icon and a mental image of a gutted human being don't mesh well for me.

 

In brief, I, and three friends, saw a couple mauled about 150 yards ahead of us on trail. The attack was sudden, from the left side. None of us, although all experienced, had seen or smelled (almost always the first indicator) any sign of bear all day.

 

After the attack started we, perhaps stupidly, tried to scare it away by shouting and throwing debris down the trail. A hand gun would have been useless at the range. But, even with a rifle, which I did not have, I would probably not have risked shots, since the young lady and bear were both moving back and forth across the same line.

 

The bear moved off to the right almost immediately. As we approached we thought we heard, but did not see, a cub. It would be a nice explanation, but, like it or not, bears frequently do not act in a consistant, predicatable, manner. About 5 minutes later, the bear returned about 20 yards down trail. Three times the bear loped a few paces towards us. Each time we shouted, mostly obscenities, and, retreated a little, dragging the young man with us.

 

In hindsight, moving an injured person is never a good idea. Since he had already lost conciousness and quickly went into shock, the bear might have left him alone. There are rules of thumb, play dead, don't play dead, climb a tree, don't climb a tree, run, back away, etc. for different bear species, but again, bears often refuse to be predictable. With a black bear, you are not 'supposed' to play dead, but, frankly, rules of thumb had nothing to do with our actions.

 

Anyway, the bear wondered off, again to the right. Since cell phones didn't exist yet, my friend Tim dropped pack, grabbed water, map, and compass, and ran ahead to a spur trail (ahead being the closest help, and him being the fastest runner). Miraculously, both of the victims survived, despite my then limited first aid skills (I was inspired by the event to obtain better training, I still maintain a wilderness first responder certificate).

 

NOW - people reading this should not suddenly be terrified of bears. Serious injuries are rare, and often can be directly attributed, at least in part, to poor judgement on the part of the attacked.

 

But, I'll stand by what I said. Yanking out a hand gun and emptying it into a 600 pound bear will not insure your safety. A high power rifle shot to the heart will bring a bear down, but again, under attack that is world class shooting.

 

Now, "mcb", if you think that a young couple taking a nice day hike down a well marked, reasonably crowded trail were somehow "asking" for what happened to them, and that, through your superior intelligence and quickdraw practice, the same thing could never happen to you, you are not as outdoor savvy as I would have given you credit for.

 

-jjf

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It seem that I have hit a raw nerve here jfitzpat and for that I am very sorry. I did not mean to be flipant about the incident you witnessed. The grin icon_biggrin.gif was for that fact that I find it funny how much critters in general find human a smelly creature in the woods. Nonetheless I do apologize I did not mean to belittle your expereince. But I find it anoying that most (not all) attacks could have been avoided using just a little bit of common sense and paying attention to your god given senses.

 

On another note a five second draw of and firing a handgun is slow. I believe the current quick draw record is drawing a double action revolver firing six rounds, reloading with the aid of a quickloader and firing another six rounds in just under 2 second. All round had to be on target, only 10 yards, but still on target. That is quick drawing! 5 second is not unreasonable for someone with just a little training and some practice.

 

I have grown up with guns and they are very much a part of my life. I know many people have not grown up with them and do not have the same fondness for guns that some do, but a gun is just another tool like your GPS , pocket knife, walking stick, etc. It has it uses but can't do everything all the time.

 

As for stopping power. A .44 mag. with the correct amunition will stop a bear dead in his tracks 600 pound or not. There are not many thing that can sustain over a 1000 ft-lbs of energy projected on such a small area.

 

Nonetheless all that said I am sorry if I offended you. The stigma guns carry with them is something that I don't think any comments I make on my beliefs and uses of them will change your opinion. I do think that in the woods carring a handgun has save many backwoods hikers and campers

 

mc

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I know I was going to hit a nerve when I posted an anti-carry message. That's the way the culture of the US is and I hope I could just add some information to the anti side. If you do carry you should know what you are getting into and why. looking at the cold hard facts of why over 28,000 people die with a bullet hole in them every year in the US just makes you a more informed person. Ignoring the mumbers is just ignorance.

 

A few suggestions if you do carry a gun with you into the woods to protect youself and others from two-legged critters.

 

Learn how to use it before you do it. Go to a range and shoot a lot over a good chunk of time. Know how to pull it out take the safety off and on in your sleep. If the range allows you to shoot objects such as pumpkins, frozen gourds then do it. You will understand better the power you have that can reach quite a distance. A paper target doesn't show you that.

Understand muzzle velocity. Find out what the velocity of the slug is after traviling a 1/2 mile, and 2 miles.

Understand what happens when you shoot a bottle out of a marsh at a 60 degree down angle. (It skips and travels about waste high for a considerable distance).

If you run into a confrontation in the woods do not even imply that you have a firearm unless you are completely willing to use it with lethal force. "I have gun so you better back off" doesn't work unless you know how to use it and that you will use it.

Shooting to injure doesn't work either. If you are in a situation which ends with you firing you have to shoot to kill. It ain't the movies.

Then you have to live with your decision. Could I or would I have avoided the situation if I was not carrying a firearm?

This is where I will repeat the first one. Shoot often at a range. Leave the firearm at the range if you can. If you leave it in a house use a locked gun safe. The amunition should be locked in a seperate box.

But if you think about it a cell phone with you or by your bed is better protection. Either the confrontation happens in seconds and you will not have the ability to use it or the confrontation takes some time to come to a head and a cell call might be a better help.

 

I grew up with guns. I feel very comfortable with guns. It wouldn't even cross my mind to keep one for protection or carry one for protection.

It is the untrained person with a gun that freaks me out. I would never want to run into this type of a person while carrying myself.

In all my hikes in the woods I have met a lot of people with guns. Virtually all were quite polite. Politeness sort of goes hand and hand with someone who knows what they are doing and are comfortable with guns.

The few times I have been nervous is bumping into people in canyons/ valleys around major cities. Never shot or carried a pistol and they are strutting with the shoulder harness. Around Los Angeles seems to be the worst. The wrong attitude. The wrong attitude is "I want to feel safe so I'll go to K-Mart and buy a Glock and throw it in my pack". These people scare me. They act less predictably then a wounded bear. I would never want to have a gun around this type of person because I would not want to shoot them. I would end my sentences with "sir" and avoid them.

 

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quote:
Originally posted by mcb:

It seem that I have hit a raw nerve here jfitzpat and for that I am very sorry. I did not mean to be flipant about the incident you witnessed. The grin icon_biggrin.gif was for that fact that I find it funny how much critters in general find human a smelly creature in the woods. Nonetheless I do apologize I did not mean to belittle your expereince. But I find it anoying that most (not all) attacks could have been avoided using just a little bit of common sense and paying attention to your god given senses.

 

On another note a five second draw of and firing a handgun is slow. I believe the current quick draw record is drawing a double action revolver firing six rounds, reloading with the aid of a quickloader and firing another six rounds in just under 2 second. All round had to be on target, only 10 yards, but still on target. That is quick drawing! 5 second is not unreasonable for someone with just a little training and some practice.

 

I have grown up with guns and they are very much a part of my life. I know many people have not grown up with them and do not have the same fondness for guns that some do, but a gun is just another tool like your GPS , pocket knife, walking stick, etc. It has it uses but can't do everything all the time.

 

As for stopping power. A .44 mag. with the correct amunition will stop a bear dead in his tracks 600 pound or not. There are not many thing that can sustain over a 1000 ft-lbs of energy projected on such a small area.

 

Nonetheless all that said I am sorry if I offended you. The stigma guns carry with them is something that I don't think any comments I make on my beliefs and uses of them will change your opinion. I do think that in the woods carring a handgun has save many backwoods hikers and campers

 

mc


 

Yes, you did strike a nerve, which is why I replied carefully.

 

What I find most interesting is how you go off about "stigma" and "[my] opinion". Where, in any post, did I take any stance whatsoever on if a person should, or should not carry a gun?

 

I have only stated that, should a person carry a gun, they should not let it give them a false sense of confidence. That is, a gun is no substitute for good planning and prevention. Because, a gun cannot always deal with every potential danger.

 

Since you mentioned that bears should be avoided in the first place. It seems reasonable to suppose that you at least sometimes heed my suggestion, even if you vehemently argue against it here.

 

Now, as to the awsome 44. Yes, a .44 Magnum revolver has a muzzle velocity of about 1600 fps, and a muzzle force of over 1000 ft lbs (about 10 times the force of a little .22 LR). But that force drops rapidly over distance, as does the accuracy of the weapon.

 

But, a .30-30 Rifle delivers about 1300 ft lbs *at a 100 yards*. IE, you can deliver more punch across a football field than you can with a .44 Magnum pressed to the side of a bear's head.

 

A .243 delivers more oomph still, and a .30-06 delivers a whopping 2300 ft lbs of force at 100 yards, over 1100 ft lbs at *500* yards.

 

And, of course, these rifles can actually deliver a projectile with reasonable accuracy out to even greater distances. This is why a rifle is my back country weapon of choice. In addition to defense, you can also more effectively hunt with it, more effectively signal for help (higher muzzle velocity usually means louder report), and so on.

 

That said, I would always keep in mind that even a canon is no gurantee. I don't have it handy, so I'll have to look up the name, but in about '86 there was an attack involving a professional hunter in Alaska. He shot a grizzly *through the heart* with a .30-06 from about 40 yards. The animal dropped and he approached it. When he was *sure* it was dead, he put down his rifle and got ready to take pictures and measurements.

 

*NOTE TO SELF* Be really, REALLY sure...

 

The animal leaped up, stood on its hind legs, lifted him off the ground and kissed him - as in it bit off his face and crushed his jaw. Amazingly, he lived. More amazingly, the carcus was found several miles away. Shot, in fact, through the heart...

 

Now, I'm sure you could go on and on about munitions, energy distribution and so on. Conversely, having hunted bear, I could go on and on about why bears are hard to kill.

 

Bottom line, any creature that can take a large bore rifle shot to the head and have the shot bounce off without measurable cranial damage is, as you mentioned a creature best kept out of handgun range...

 

-jjf

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