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Making Vacation Caches acceptable


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A MODEST PROPOSAL

 

First, the mea culpa: the reason for this posting is that we forgot the "No Vacation Caches" rule and placed a cache on a trip to my wife's hometown of Pittsburgh (we live in California). The Log was archived and we posted on the regional forum looking for someone to maintain the cache so it can be released.

 

While the motivation for the rule is pretty straight-forward, we think it is flawed. From reading the log pages, it is obvious that many people do not maintain their caches no matter how close to home they are, or drop out of Geocaching and leave orphan caches. I have seen many log pages on which the last few posts, sometimes months old, report the cache as damaged, scattered or missing.

 

It seems to us that there is a simple solution to this problem, one that would permit Vacation Caches as well.

 

Since a great part of the game assumes ethical behavior on the part of the players, why not emphasize a new ethic (one I'll bet many if not most players already embrace!) We simply encourage everyone to maintain the caches they FIND! We always include a spare notebook and pen in a baggie in our Caching kit, as well as some waterproof tape to make repairs to a damaged container, both to maintain our own caches, and fix up any we find that need it (though all we have ever had to do is replace one pen.)

 

The website already allows for reporting caches that are "not found" on the last few visits and has procedures for dealing with them. Presumably, the same could be done for an irrepairably damaged cache which could be removed by the finder. Finders would clean up scattered caches and repair those damaged ones they could.

 

Anyway, we would enjoy being able to create caches when we travel and think the above or some variation would be workable.

 

Feedback?

 

CoastCachers

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quote:
We simply encourage everyone to maintain the caches they FIND! We always include a spare notebook and pen in a baggie in our Caching kit, as well as some waterproof tape to make repairs to a damaged container, both to maintain our own caches, and fix up any we find that need it (though all we have ever had to do is replace one pen.)

 

Many people already do this. I usually bring along extra Ziplocs, log books and even cache containers, if the previous logs indicate a problem. Often the cache has been repaired by another geocacher by the time I get there. But to place a cache and assume people will take care of it for you is presumptuous.

 

I agree that many local geocachers fail to properly maintain their caches and it is a problem. But I'm sure most owners at least intended to take care of the cache when they placed it. And many do eventually get out to the cache to fix it, though it could take a while.

 

A vacation cache is by its very nature abandoned by the owner the instant its placed. Leave the cache placing for the locals who know the local rules and the good spots.

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on July 01, 2003 at 02:59 AM.]

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We agree with Mr BrianSnat...We have almost lost a whole forest area because there are many vacation caches that are not being maintained. Without getting on my soap box, we agree with this guildline and support it

 

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin (1706-1790)

beerchug.gif

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Agreed. I visit a town 100 miles away every other weekend (sound familiar dads?). I am getting to know the area fairly well. I feel that it would be within the spirit of the rules if I placed a cache that far away since I visit so often. For now, so as not to be a rebel, I'm going to stick with caches nearby.

 

"One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say."

Will Durant

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quote:
Originally posted by CoastCachers:

A MODEST PROPOSAL...

 

Since a great part of the game assumes ethical behavior on the part of the players, why not emphasize a new ethic (one I'll bet many if not most players already embrace!) We simply encourage everyone to maintain the caches they FIND! We always include a spare notebook and pen in a baggie in our Caching kit, as well as some waterproof tape to make repairs to a damaged container, both to maintain our own caches, and fix up any we find that need it (though all we have ever had to do is replace one pen.)

 

The website already allows for reporting caches that are "not found" on the last few visits and has procedures for dealing with them. Presumably, the same could be done for an irrepairably damaged cache which could be removed by the finder. Finders would clean up scattered caches and repair those damaged ones they could.


icon_confused.gif What specifically are you proposing?

 

quote:
Anyway, we would enjoy being able to create caches when we travel and think the above or some variation would be workable.
I worry this could increase the number of un-maintained caches icon_frown.gif. If we get to assume the finders will fix any problems, then what would stop someone from just placing anywhere and everywhere they go??

Don't get me wrong, I think its great when finders help fix a cache, but I don't see how this could be made mandatory. If cache loot can not be kept from degrading to rocks and rusty bottle caps, how can you make the finders replace a logbook??

 

 

waypoint_link.gif22008_1700.gif37_gp_logo88x31.jpg

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BrianSnat pretty much covered it. I might add one thing. By allowing people to leave caches far from home in areas they are not familiar with, you could cause serious harm to the local caching scene. Many states have local rules and regulations governing cache placement. by placing caches in regulated or banned areas, you make the local cachers appear irresponsible and unable to follow the rules. I don't know where in PA you hid your vacation cache, but millions of acres of land in PA require a (free) permit before you can legally place a cache. Vacationers dumping off caches it areas like that undermine all the hard work the local cachers have done to keep geocaching from being banned outright.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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quote:
I would be willing to support an amended rule that would allow you to place a cache in an area that you vacation at regularly as there is a lot of difference between dropping an ammo box in some forest that you are never going to see again and dropping one in a forest that you see twice a year.

 

The admins will allow you to place a cache far from home if you prove to them you can maintain it. If you visit the area frequently, tell them this and they will probably approve it. One thing they may do is check for finds of yours in the area you plan to place the cache. If they see a number of finds spread over several months, that's proof that you do frequent the area.

 

I have a fairly new cache placed a couple hundred miles from home and it was approved because I visit the area 15+ times a year.

 

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

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quote:
Originally posted by Wilky:

Agreed. I visit a town 100 miles away every other weekend (sound familiar dads?). I am getting to know the area fairly well. I feel that it would be within the spirit of the rules if I placed a cache that far away since I visit so often.


I think it would be allowed within the spirit of the rules for you to place a cache there. An area you visit 25 times a year is not a vacation, and I would think a 2 week or less response time to maintain your cache is very reasonable. Chances are you have already found a lot of the caches in the area, and are familiar with the local cachers and the laws and customs. That's not the same as needing a 6hr plane ride to get back to your cache, and not even finding any of the HUNDREDS of great caches within miles of where you left your vacation cache

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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WHOA!! Nine to zero against us so far! OK, we can go with the flow... Just seemed like a good idea at the time icon_smile.gif.

 

BrianSnat: didn't think the idea was "presumptuous." It just struck us as a sort of "do unto others" thing, which we already do our side of anyway, which would allow greater freedom in placing caches. And the idea WAS just tossed out for discussion!

 

Don't worry, Mopar. The cache we left was very urban (Mt. Washington, Pittsburgh) and will never cause a problem. As I said, we already posted in the regional forum to ask if anyone would maintain it for us. If we do get it up, you'll see how inoffensive it is!

 

Welch: We agree that unless everyone agreed to this, it would only exacerbate the abandoned cache problem. "Mandatory" hardly applies to our hobby, since there are so many ways to "cheat" if one wanted to. This game is something that needs the willing concensus of the players. That's why we posted originally to get feedback.

 

Carivercpl: I would be interested in the history of the forest almost lost to Geocaching because of abandoned caches! We have a definite problem with caches placed imappropriately in a nearby California State Park, and would like to know how it was resolved in your area.

 

EVERYONE: Hey, we made a boo boo, placed a "vacation cache," are trying to get a maintainer for it, it is archived until then, and the cache itself is secure and it is virtually impossible for it to EVER cause a problem. If it is disallowed we will get a relative back there to remove it. We really enjoy Geocaching and have no intention of hurting the sport. OK?

 

CoastCachers

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If it's in your wifes hometown and you guys make it back every now and then, then it could probably be approved.

 

I have no intention of maintaining some of my caches more than once a year due to remoteness. My urban ones I get to when there is a problem and so far that seems to work since it's the Urban ones with 60 visits that have problems and the remote ones with 3 that are good.

 

Everything is relative. If you can maintain the cahce, get a non geocacher friend or family to check up on it for you by proxy you have dealt with the reasons why vacation caches are verboten.

 

This winter I'm planning on a vacation cache in AZ. I can arrange for maintanance and my family there would get a kick out of the whole thing. Which is what this is about.

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quote:
Originally posted by CoastCachers:

 

Since a great part of the game assumes ethical behavior on the part of the players, why not emphasize a new ethic (one I'll bet many if not most players already embrace!) We simply encourage everyone to maintain the caches they FIND!


 

Well, that certainly would, for all intents and purposes, absolve people who place caches of the responsibilities of cache ownership, while permitting them to retain "control" of the cache. (Deciding which logs are legitimate, etc.) I think it's a bad idea. The next logical step would be to eliminate owner control of caches altogether.

 

I agree that geocachers should help out with minor maintenance issues when possible, but the responsibility for major repair/overhaul of a cache, and the determination that the cache remains viable, lies with the cache owner.

 

How does that relate to vacation caches? As others have stated, I also don't have a problem with the idea if the individual demonstrates they visit the area on a regular (a word very open to interpretation) basis and/or has arranged for a proxy to oversee the cache.

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Our 2 cents....

 

I think it would be one thing driving down the road far away from home and say hey I'm going to put a cache here and intend on never returning to maintain it. After all it's evident in many posts on the message board that there are caches that aren't being maintained by people that live a couple miles down the road who placed them. Their reasons may vary, but the point is that if a cache gets "approved" quicker or easier because the person who places it lives close to it, than one that is a distance away, then that reason for approving it needs to be reconsidered.

 

Like others have stated, they live hundreds of miles away, yet visit the area frequently. If the starter of this topic lives in california and home is pennsylvania, then I see no problem of them placing a cache there. As long as they agree that it will be maintained. Briansnat mentioned that he as well as others do help maintain the caches they visit. It's mere respect as geocacher to another geocacher. There can be reasons for the cache not to have been maintained properly that are out of the owners hands. Sometimes they aren't even mentioned in the logs.

 

What about if the people from california, have a family member in the pennsylvania area that can go and check the cache for them when needed? The person who checks it, might not be a cacher themself, but will help them.

 

Also why not have a section that people can post requests for someone to adopt their caches? And also allow people to post a message requesting that they want to place a cache and need someone to adopt it? If someone wanted to place near me and had no way of checking it frequently I would adopt it (as long as it was not a 5/5!) lol... I don't know what the normal requirements are for someone to adopt a cache, but both the person wanting to place a cache and the person adopting it could contact GC.com and let them know. Or the person adopting it could claim it as hidden. I think out of due respect to the placer that the adopter should make mention of who placed it.

 

If it's too much for GC.com to deal with now as I know they are busy, I will gladly add a section to my message board for people to post messages that want to adopt a cache and for those looking for adoptees. Then they could turn to GC.com and get the cache either switched to Adopted status or the adoptee can claim the cache and get unapproved caches approved by them.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

Our 2 cents....

Like others have stated, they live hundreds of miles away, yet visit the area frequently. If the starter of this topic lives in california and home is pennsylvania, then I see no problem of them placing a cache there. As long as they agree that it will be maintained. Briansnat mentioned that he as well as others do help maintain the caches they visit. It's mere respect as geocacher to another geocacher. There can be reasons for the cache not to have been maintained properly that are out of the owners hands. Sometimes they aren't even mentioned in the logs.

 

What about if the people from california, have a family member in the pennsylvania area that can go and check the cache for them when needed? The person who checks it, might not be a cacher themself, but will help them.


And what if someone who has been geocaching for 2.5yrs and has never found a single cache in Mass. came and placed one a 5-10 minute walk from one of your caches? What if you spent days or weeks of your time getting permission from the the park, and someone else, who was "too busy" to go hunt your cache, dumps one in the same park. What if that person then expected you to do the work of maintaining the cache, while they get the enjoyment of owning it, even though that person, in all their "frequent trips to the area" have always been too busy to actually hunt a cache?

You STILL think this is a good idea?

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Vacation caches in the sense that they are dropped and not tended too, yes are not a good ideas.

 

A cache that is called a "Vacation Cache" of someone who can maintain it or have someone do it for them that is a distance away is not necessarily a bad idea and I would not call it a vacation cache in the same sense as my first paragraph.

 

Should there be rules that the cache must be within a certain distance of your residences? If so, what is or should that distance be? Being able ot prove is another thing, especially when someone mentioned the fact to prove that you visit an area an X amount of days a year and can maintain that? How are you going to prove it? People could easily lie and start placing caches around like that. Of course it would be more work on the GC team on finding these out and taking action for them. There's no fool proof way of doing it.

 

I say at least give the chance for others to adopt a cache, before it is suggested or placed. If someone wants to put one nearby me I have no problem helping out with it, as long as I'm not hiking all day and climbing for it. There may be people who used to live here that know of better places than I do, becuase I just moved here 6 months ago. Just as the same for back home. I've looked online and there is a cache about 2 miles from my parents house on an old NASCAR racetrack and a dragstrip. There are neighborhoods and a park built where it used to be. I know the history of it and the area more than 99% of the people posting on it online. I see their questions about what some of the cement things left there are. I usually email them and tell them. But most of them said they didn't even know that the park was there. I'm sure there are plenty other places at home to tell them where to place them or where I could easily place them for them and have them take them as their own and register them with GC. Or I could have my parents, brother, inlaw parents, or inlaw brother check in on them for me when needed and periodically. If it goes too long without being maintained and enough complaints are about it, then archive it, delete it or whatever they do.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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My favorite answer to any of these types of things is what if your coords are off? You fly home and the next posts says something like "The coords were pointing me into a KMart"? It happens even with experienced people. The numbers get transposed or your GPS was off that day. You need to be able to check on these types of things.

 

Just on my own soap box - The next person to post a thread saying that vacation caches are a good idea should get their eyes plucked out with a dirty spoon!

 

smiles_63.gif ---Real men cache in shorts.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

And what if someone who has been geocaching for 2.5yrs and has never found a single cache in Mass. came and placed one a 5-10 minute walk from one of your caches? What if you spent days or weeks of your time getting permission from the the park, and someone else, who was "too busy" to go hunt your cache, dumps one in the same park.


 

First of all, I'm new to Mass. and it can not be conceived that we know the area as others who do. I know my hometown better than 99% of the cachers in that area, by reading the logs online.

 

If someone planted one 5 or 10 minutes away from a cache that I planted, then now problem. What are the rules? I read something somewhere that it was a tenth of a mile. Is that so? If so and the cache was within the rules as far as that goes, then no problem. I would think that the approvers would not approve it, if it were within the prescribed distance. We found 3 caches here within a short distance from each other here. I don't even think they were more than a tenth apart if that far. Did it bother us? No. We got 3 caches in one trip. We saw 3 completely different beautiful places. There are caches all over around here, which is good for us, at least the way we look it. It gives us a lot of options. Look up our area code of 01462 and start seeing how many there are within 50 miles.

 

quote:

What if that person then expected you to do the work of maintaining the cache, while they get the enjoyment of owning it, even though that person, in all their "frequent trips to the area" have always been too busy to actually hunt a cache?

You STILL think this is a good idea?


 

First of all, I mentioned adopting it. Not just letting others maintain it for you. Have it in their name. Also on this point. Let's say I know the perfect spot at home where there's no cache and not one nearby at all. What if I posted a message and said I was looking for someone to own a cache in that area? So, someone replies to me that they will. I look at their profile and see how active they are, I may want to meet them when in the area as all this would be up to me. I then plant the cache without registering it to GC. I give the coordinates to the new prospective owner. He goes and finds it to confirm that it is actually there. He confirms the contents, adds if he wants to it and confirms the coordinates. He then goes home and registers it with GC. He places in the description with respect, that the cache was in honor or founded by the original user?

 

The placer wouldn't own it unless they frequently checked it. Nothing you can do about that. What cache owners who never check theirs that live close to it?

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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quote:
Originally posted by Nurse Dave & LKay:

My favorite answer to any of these types of things is what if your coords are off? You fly home and the next posts says something like "The coords were pointing me into a KMart"? It happens even with experienced people. The numbers get transposed or your GPS was off that day. You need to be able to check on these types of things.

 

Just on my own soap box - The next person to post a thread saying that vacation caches are a good idea should get their eyes plucked out with a dirty spoon!

 

http://www.sprecher.us/smiles_63.gif ---Real men cache in shorts.


 

Ouch my eyes! LOL icon_cool.gif

 

Have someone local adopt it or take it in their name before registering it! Especially if it's something that you can not easily get back to. You can also network the area of GC members and see if they are willing to help. See above 2 or 3 messages from me.

 

I stated that dropping a cache and never returning to it, is a bad idea. But having a cache a distance away is not necessarily.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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quote:
BrianSnat: didn't think the idea was "presumptuous." It just struck us as a sort of "do unto others" thing, which we already do our side of anyway, which would allow greater freedom in placing caches. And the idea WAS just tossed out for discussio

 

I never said your idea was presumptuous. Not sure where you got that from. I said that dropping a cache off that you know you can't maintain and EXPECTING that someone else will take care of it for you is presumptuous.

 

quote:
also why not have a section that people can post requests for someone to adopt their caches? And also allow people to post a message requesting that they want to place a cache and need someone to adopt it? If someone wanted to place near me and had no way of checking it frequently I would adopt it (as long as it was not a 5/5!)

 

We already do. The regional forums.

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Woodster, you make some good points in your last few posts, so I think maybe I should refer you and everyone else to the local thread that was posted a few hours before this one was.

 

quote:
Originally posted by CoastCachers:

We're from California and made a cache in Pittsburgh (Mt. Washington) while visiting. Oops: against the rules which we didn't remember well enough. Bad us! It's log is now being held hostage in the "Archived" files!

 

We were hoping someone would agree to maintain this small, easily accessable cache so we could notify the Keystone Approver, who would then hopefully free the Log.

 

I hate to think the poor little cache will just sit there, unfound and unfullfilled ! If you'd be willing to help, please email us.

 

If the cache is approved, I'll let you know first and you can be the first finder, and have your choice of all the fabulous toys, which have flown over 2600 miles on a real jet airliner_!!_ And (yes, more_!_) a grateful mention on the log page!

 

Thanks,

CoastCachers icon_frown.gif


 

Notice that they are asking for someone to maintain it for them, not adopt it as has been suggested in both threads numerous time.

 

CoastCachers seems to feel maybe I'm picking on them by posting in both threads, but since they brought the subject to the General forum as well, it's going on in 2 places.

It's already been stated here and in one of the other many "vacation cache" ( gawd I hate that term! it really doesn't fit right) threads, one of the main things the admins consider is your find history. Look at own finds/hides. You will see I have something like 100+ finds in the Phili area, even though that's 75 miles from home. When it came time to place a cache in that area. it was obvious by my find history that I frequent the area and there was no problem approving my cache. Now if I hid a cache out on long Island, a mere 35 miles from home, I would suspect it would raise some red flags, since as close as it is, in all my geocaching travels I've never found a cache on Long Island.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

 

[This message was edited by Mopar on July 01, 2003 at 11:57 AM.]

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I have a solution, and I'll be happy to amend the vacation cache issue.

 

If you place a cache and the land owner has agreed to maintain it, you are welcome to place one on vacation. To do this you need to put the land manager's contact information (phone number or email will do) on the cache page so if it needs maintaining the geocacher can contact them.

 

Otherwise don't place caches on vacation. It's irresponsible behavior to hide something you have no intention of maintaining.

 

Never try to justify bad behavior with other bad behavior. If it is obvious that many people don't maintain their caches, why add to the problem? Maybe when you come upon one of these poorly maintained caches you replace the container, fix the logbook, etc, instead of placing your own problem on the landscape?

 

We already ask people to help repair and maintain caches they find, and leave them better than they left it. Perhaps we should start there before creating more problems.

 

If you want to do something on vacation, create travel bugs and put them in existing caches.

 

frog.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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Mopar: I agree, I don't like the term Vacation cache. I wouldn't endorse or recommend a cache of someone going somewhere and just dropping a cache and trying to get it registered on the site and never intending on it's upkeep. I agree the find history has something to do with it. But this is all irrelevant to what I was suggesting, except for the fact that someone may frequent a place often that is some distance and can "maintain" it properly. They may hit some caches in that area as well and it would be recorded. Also, it is very easy for someone to go and place a find on caches local to a cache that they placed a distance away in order to look like they are in the area frequently.

 

Jeremy: I agree about the remark you made about the landowner accepting responsibility for it. But what about what my messages were describing? Prescouting a fellow member of GC in the local area to take a cache, that isn't placed yet or at least isn't registered in the GC system and giving it to them to maintain? In other words, I'm going home to Augusta, Georgia in a few weeks for vacation, hopefully. I live over 1000 miles away and it would be absurd for me to own a cache so far away even though I can't maintain it. What if there was a place, where I could post a message looking for members in the Augusta, Georgia area to take this cache that I want to place there? I would make arrangements with them of the details and give them the coordinates once it is placed. They go to it, add to it if they want, but to verify it as well as the coordinates. Then they in turn register it with GC. Why wouldn't something like that work? Or going on with what you said about the land manager's information on the cache page, why couldn't it be someone else like a relative or a friend?

 

I think what may happen, if it already doesn't, is someone will create a seperate account and put they are from the area in which they placed the cache. I've seen plenty of people's profiles with no finds, but a lot of caches hidden.

 

There's no sure fireway of avoiding it. Dishonest people are going to be dishonest. They are going to trick and manipulate the system if they want. I think that all you can expect is that each and every cacher and cache placer follows a general rule of ethics. One should be, that if you place a cache you are expected to maintain it or at least have it maintained. If it getting reported over and over in disrepair, then warnings should be given, leading up to removing a cache from the system.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

But what about what my messages were describing? Prescouting a fellow member of GC in the local area to take a cache, that isn't placed yet or at least isn't registered in the GC system and giving it to them to maintain? In other words, I'm going home to Augusta, Georgia in a few weeks for vacation, hopefully. I live over 1000 miles away and it would be absurd for me to own a cache so far away even though I can't maintain it. What if there was a place, where I could post a message looking for members in the Augusta, Georgia area to take this cache that I want to place there? I would make arrangements with them of the details and give them the coordinates once it is placed. They go to it, add to it if they want, but to verify it as well as the coordinates. Then they in turn register it with GC. Why wouldn't something like that work?


That place exists. It's called the regional forums. In your case, I would post to the South/South East forum well in advance of your trip, stating exactly what you just said here, as well as the general area you want to place a cache. See if you get any bites. You might also ask about local laws regarding geocaches. I have been caching with one of the admins from GA (Hi, mtn-man!) as recently as a few days ago, and I think he's mentioned that certain parks down there ban geocaches or require a permit.

It's local info like that which is another reason for not placing caches in areas you arent familiar with in relation to geocaching.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Well, this no vacation cache rule does make one thing certain, it forces caches to be near the cachers. The rule pretty well ends the possibility of very remote caches. While I can not personally hunt the remote caches, I feel that something important in the game is lost when there are no more "wild caches"

 

Swanlakers

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I also wanted to make mention that I don't agree with the way that the starter of the this topic placed a cache and then tried to find someone and it got archived. I believe that you should find a maintainer prior to placing a cache. As others stated, dropping a cache and leaving it unsupervised is not a good idea.

 

Maybe we need to start a website called AdoptaCache.com...lol

 

Or even better, how about you pay a fee to register a cache? A $1 or $2. Will help prevent the "Vacation Caches" as y'all described.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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Woodster:

 

Please note that we UNINTENTIONALLY violated the "No Vacation Cache" rule. We just forgot it as we hurriedly got ready for our short trip. I started our topic admitting that. We didn't just go out dropping caches and hoping someone would clean up after us.

 

In point of fact the Log is archived and no one will even know it exists if we don't find someone to maintain it (or better yet, adopt it as Mopar [who has taken us seriously to task both here and in the regional forum for our "transgression"] suggested). It is currently secure, and we intend to have a relative go retrieve it if that doesn't happen.

 

Our attempt to get someone to maintain the cache was an attempt to correct our acknowledged oversight. As I wrote earlier, we really enjoy Geocaching and wouldn't spoil it for anyone else. We invite anyone who gets to our area to visit our caches, see the care we have used in selecting sites, and enjoy the areas they take you to.

 

CoastCachers

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Coastcachers, don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying you did intentionally. I had actually misread your first posting or rather, when I was reading it, it refreshed the idea i had in my mind. Then when I was getting the heat about what i posted and wondered why people weren't understanding me more, I reread your first post. And as I stated earlier I don't think it's a good idea to do things that way. Nothing on you or that you intentionally did it.

 

If you can't find an adopter, then perhaps you can get a relative interested enough in it where they can sign up and adopt it.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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Woodsters Outdoors, I was going to answer and Mopar sort of beat me to it. (Hi back at ya' Mopar, and thanks for taking some time to go caching!) He makes an extremely good point. I will expand on it even more. Theses things apply to everyone and not just you. Don't feel like I'm just singling you out.

 

We do have some strict rules in GA. There are certain areas where you cannot place caches. You need to know these rules BEFORE you come down a place a cache. If you intend on placing caches on vacation, then you MUST research all the rules pretaining to an area BEFORE you do it and not try to see if it can be approve after you place it. This is a major part of what is causing all of the regional issues at this point.

 

An example is Minnesota. I have been working that area for some time. I have really had to delve into all the nuances involved with placing a cache there. I know the rules generally but I know exactly where to check what is allowed and what is not when I review a cache placed there. There are many overlapping rules there. Still, cachers living in that state still place caches that are done incorrectly and they live there (yes, it happens everywhere). The local association there has worked very hard with local agencies and they have also done a tremendous job on their web site explaining what areas that are off limits, that are OK with certain restrictions or that are are wide open for cache placement.

 

Before you come to GA you need to know where you are going to place the cache in advance. You need to know who is responsible for that area. You need to find out from that National Forest, State Park, County Government or City Government if caches are allowed in the area you want to place the cache. Then you clearly would have to have someone to maintain it for you (cacher or landowner) or let a local cacher list it for you in their name. (I currently watch a cache for someone who lives in CA, but he asked me specifically before he came if I would work with him on the cache.) THEN you can put your cache out since you know you have permission. You then put the required information on the page as Jeremy has stated.

 

Frankly, this basically should be done everywhere everytime. icon_rolleyes.gif

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Mtn-Man I was using a my trip as an example. As you stated though, before placing a cache ANYWHERE, you should check to see if it's allowed and not only in areas you are not familiar with.

 

I didn't state that part, because I figured that was a gimme. But it appears that what I was talking about then is ok.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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This post will probably overlap some of the others above it that I skimmed through, but I wanted to put in my two cents as well.

 

We go and visit my Dad in So. California 3 - 4 times a year. He has gone caching with us and understands the game. The particular community he lives in (and where I was born and raised) is cache-free. Lots and lots of caches nearby, but if you look at a cache map, you see a big blank space surrounding his house. I assume it is because no one in this town has caught the 'caching bug'.

 

I would like to place a cache or two down there next time I visit and will lobby for their approval by adding a note to the cache report 'For Admin Use Only - Remove When Posting This Cache' stating that my father has agreed, along with myself to maintain this cache. I would further note in the body of the cache page that this cache is being maintained locally and if there are any problems with the cache to e-mail me and it will receive attention. (or some other verbage that would be agreeable to Admin.)

 

Forum readers - whaqt are your thoughts on an arrangement like this?

 

Admin - would something like this work for you?

 

I think that the vacation cache rule could be modified to allow for situations such as this wherby local support of the cache would be identified and verified prior to admin approval.

 

"Could be worse...could be raining"

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I suspect I may wish I had a sock puppet account after this post. I feel very strongly about vacation caches. For instance, a cacher visits an area "on vacation", then asks locals about a spot and asks to put a cache there. Then ask a local to adopt it. To me, that is a most arrogant thing to do. As if local cachers need tourists to point out good cache spots in their own hometown. If you need assistance maintaining a cache, you have no business placing it. Why do so many people want to place caches away from home? Is it some primal urge to mark an area like a tomcat in need of a good neutering? I have no problem with well maintained caches, regardless of where the owner lives, but I resent the implication that locals need good spots hand fed to them. Locals know their area, they will find the good placements. Ok, so they get to "own" the cache, and have to maintain it. But they are denied the actual discovery of the location, and the creation of an original cache. You might as well have a site where people write the cache page for you, then mail you a box of goodies with a bill for the contents, then instructions as to where to place it. Oh, and since it's "their" cache, remind them not to log it as a find.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

Woodster, you make some good points in your last few posts, so I think maybe I should refer you and everyone else to http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=7316058331&m=58260676.

 

Notice that they are asking for someone to maintain it for them, not adopt it as has been suggested in both threads numerous time.

 


 

We did not think of the adoption idea when we started the Regional thread. We DID NOT ignore the idea of adoption when you suggested it, rather we thanked you for the idea.

 

Mopar, we obviously stepped on your toes somehow, and I am sorry, truly sorry. Thank you for suggesting that everyone read our posts in both forums; I still think my posts have been pretty straight-forward and not reflective of my being an inconsiderate jerk.

 

I posted in the regional forum to get a maintainer (or now, adopter, per your suggestion.) I posted here to throw out an idea for discussion. If you think this is double-threading, I'll apologize to you for THAT. OK?

 

CoastCachers

 

[This message was edited by CoastCachers on July 01, 2003 at 04:12 PM.]

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Bloen Customs, I hope that you are not replying to my post in this thread. (since it is immediately above yours). I think that my example is one of the 'exceptions to the rule'. I spent the first half of my life in this other area and would venture to state that I know the town better than any other cacher in its surrounding area. I would be able to introduce the geocaching community to some interesting sites and would not be stepping on any other cacher's toes.

 

I think that compelling cases for exceptions to the vacation cache rule should be heard and considered.

 

"Could be worse...could be raining"

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SAme as the example I used ErSamin. There are not very many caches in a town that is the 2nd largest in the state. I can tell from reading posts of caches that a lot of people that cache there don't know a lot about the area. Since there is a military base there I kind of figured out that most, not all of the cachers in the area are military or haven't been there long. I live in an area that is saturated with caches. I just moved here 6 months ago almost 7 and I don't have the foggiest idea around here to place one, as there are so many. I'm sure a local or someone that had lived here most of their life could point some places out to me. I'd be happy for them to contact me and ask me to adopt a cache they were thinking of placing.

 

I could understand Bloen's point about a local not needing some outsider telling them whereto put a cache. But what we are speaking of it entirely different.

 

How many caches are going unmaintained now due to people having to move suddenly or military being sent off? I'm sure there are situations that happen when the last thing on a persons mind is on a box they put in the middle of woods with some plastic dinosaurs and micky D toys.

 

I think in this whole post that the term "Vacation Cache" was not the correct term to use. Perhaps a better term needs to be derived if not already one. Something like Long Distance Cache.

 

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

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I tend to agree with Bloencustoms. Why not just work to improve caches in your local area. But if you feel you must go to all the work involve to place a cache in a responsible manner while traveling then just make sure you know and follow all of the guidelines for the site and for the local areas. Understand that the guidelines for the site are very precise as Jeremy has stated above. You have a lot of research to do. You also better have some funds ready so you can fly out and correct any problems associated with any mistakes that you make in the cache placement. Caches are your responsibility. Don't saddle someone else with the responsibility for correcting your mistakes. As one of the founding members of the GGA I can say that we really don't want to deal with your problems associated with the irresponsibility associated with a potential improper cache placement. We have been there before and it is a royal pain in the neck. icon_mad.gif

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I think this entire mess could have been side-stepped if cachers were required to have found at least 20 caches before placing one. If you've found 20 you've a fairly good idea about what's done and what's not done and you wouldn't forget that one does not place vacation caches.

 

How 'bout it Admins? Can we make this a requirement?

 

Care the Deception of Imitative Administrator

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Enfanta:

You have no idea how sorry we are we forgot this rule icon_smile.gif It will never ever ever happen again icon_smile.gif We promise icon_smile.gif!

 

Twenty finds before creating a cache seems restrictive to me. The main points to come out of this thread seem to be "Know the area and any laws that apply, pick a responsible site, be able to maintain the cache."

 

I feel the three caches we did locally are responsibly done, and have been well received (see our sites for the feedback we have gotten.) However, we have logged fewer than ten finds as our area is a little sparse on caches we are able to access. Maybe we just need to review the rules more often, and we will.

 

CoastCachers

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I must say, the CoastCachers are keeping an excellent attitude through all this. Kudos to you for that. icon_biggrin.gif

 

The other side of the 20+ found, CC, is it lets you see what sort of caches are out there, what you like, dislike, etc. If you've found 7 caches so far and each of those caches was just a tupperware container under bark next to a log 200' off the trail, you may not realize how cool caching can actually be.

 

Conversely, if you've found 20 caches and they've all been tupperware containers under bark next to a log 200' off the trail, you'll realize that your caching grounds need something new and different...

 

Granted, if there are only 10 caches in your area then the rule could be bent a bit. But that would be up to your local administrator.

 

Good luck!

 

Care the Deception of Imitative Administrator

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quote:
I think this entire mess could have been side-stepped if cachers were required to have found at least 20 caches before placing one. If you've found 20 you've a fairly good idea about what's done and what's not done and you wouldn't forget that one does not place vacation caches.

 

And what about the people with hundreds of finds who have lousy, poorly maintained caches and what about all the people who have zero, or a handfull of finds who have excellent, well thought out caches? After placing my first cache, the only thing I learned was that I didn't have to put so much thought, time and effort into choosing the container, contents and location.

 

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

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quote:
Originally posted by CoastCachers:

We invite anyone who gets to our area to visit our caches, see the care we have used in selecting sites, and enjoy the areas they take you to.

 

CoastCachers


 

I KNOW this whole thing could have been avoided if they had simply followed their own recommendations, and looked for the caches placed by the fine Pittsburg area cachers, instead of dropping one of their own.

 

Nothing to see here, move along.

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There are only 3 caches in my town, a dozen or so within 60 miles of where I live. Of the 3 in town, one (the first one) was placed by someone on vacation that noticed that there were no caches in the town. She placed it near a relative's house with the understanding that the relative would watch it. It is the best maintained cache of the 3. The other 2 were presumably placed by locals and they are poorly maintained.

 

I laugh when I read about people going on their lunch hour to "up" their "finds" into the hundreds. Finding 20 caches would require 200 mile round trips for me!

 

I'd like to give something back to this sport and want to place a cache locally. It would be a nice 3/1. I haven't placed it yet (and may never), because it's hard to continue an interest in a hobby that will expire by the end of the summer due to a lack of local caches and an unwillingness to travel long distances. I would be delighted to place a cache to encourage the sport, but just don't want to maintain it for years. I wish there was an easy way to put a "wanted ad" to search for someone to adopt a yet-to-be-placed cache. They are welcome to have all the "glory" and the problems in maintaining the cache.

 

Since there isn't, I'll just continue the hobby thoughout the summer and put extra items in neglected caches as I go along. I'm also going to do a few travel bugs. If my interest wans, I'll just tell the email folks that those travel bug notifications are "junk mail".

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No, ErSamin, I was not writing specifically to you, just voicing my opinion on the practice in general. When I use the word "you" in that post, it referrs to anyone contemplating a cache away from home. If you travel between two areas enough to call the other one your "second home" and actively cache in that area, then I have no problem with it. That's the key, only place in areas you actively cache in. I just don't understand the need to place far away. Are the vacation cache proponents out of room for caches at home?

 

eyes.GIF

"The fertilizer has hit the ventilator"

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I don't think people should place caches on vacation because sometimes an area might look 'good' but may in fact be an area that experiences crime, or some other odd behavior, and people that are visiting on vacation may not be aware of that because they aren't in the area long enough to know. Locals know their area best. Not to mention if you place a cache on vacation, you are taking away a hiding spot for a local cacher to use.

 

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

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quote:
Originally posted by CoastCachers:

Maybe we just need to review the rules more often, and we will.


Thanks. Thank you very much. Oh thank you!

 

How about this... instead of having to have found 20 caches to be able to hide a cache, how about a test of 20 questions regarding the guidelines for placing caches!?!?! icon_eek.gificon_wink.gificon_biggrin.gif

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