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Good Cache bad location -How to be sensitive


trailmaven
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Recently I watched a geocacher find a cache in the area along the Deschutes River known as Steelhead Falls. This person had to hike up a really unstable slope with sensitve vegetation underneath a cliff with some nests. When the person climbed down, he'd inadvertantly created a very distinct trail, ripped out plants and disturbed wildlife. My issue is not so much with the person -- he was trying to be careful. But rather with the person who created the site who chose a nice spot but in a bad location. Perhaps that person was not even aware of the potential issues?

 

This area is on BLM land but its in a Wilderness Study Area. These Study ares have some additional regulations that don't allow some kinds of activties and offer additional protections. I happen to know there are sensitive plants growing in that area and that there are listed wildlife in the same area. The BLM has also been actively restoring the trail due to significant erosion problems and is asking users to stay on the trails in that area - and here we cachers are sending people out there, off trail, impacting who knows what -- and with us being unaware of the potential problems.

 

I know that as a group we can't control the places peole choose for their cache sites. However, can we provide, in our guidelines, a recommendation to check with public land agencies in advance to insure we are not impacted wildlife and plants in a negative way? After all we are out there to enjoy things not damage them.

 

Does anyone know how to contact the person that set up the site to let them know and perhaps move the cache to a better ( and less impacting) location? I think its listed as the species name of Steelhead Micus Oncarincus Falls . I'd like to keep geocaching and don't want to be considered a "problem" by public land managers or private landowners.

 

I would appreciate some comments or ideas on how to find this person from people. Thank

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Caches can be found by searching by location... I'll take a look around the area and see if I can determine which cache it is.

 

If you wish to contact me in private to discuss the particular cache, please feel free. I know many of the local cachers and may be able to approach them about it as a friend, which they may not be so quick to consider a personal attack.

 

Also, there is a local geocaching forum located at www.cogeo.org, if you have concerns about other local caches please feel free to post them.

 

snazzsig.jpg

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It's easy to find out which cache it is. If you were a real geocacher, you'd know how to do so. You would also know how to contact the cache owner with your concerns.

 

I'm not sure what your agenda is, but if your concerns are legit, any responsible cache owner will address them. Send them e-mail and let them know about your concerns. If they refuse to answer, then discuss the issue with the admins, or come back to this forum.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

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quote:
Originally posted by trailmaven:

 

Does anyone know how to contact the person that set up the site to let them know and perhaps move the cache to a better ( and less impacting) location?


 

If you know the name of the cache, you can go to its cache page and click on the placer's name, and follow the instructions to send them an e-mail. If you don't know the cache name, it could be a little more difficult to locate the cache page. (I did a search for caches within 15 miles of Bend, OR, and 68 matches came up. On the other hand, if you know the approximate coordinates, you can search by those, and it should be easier to narrow down which cache is the one in question.)

 

However, after reading Mr. Snazz's post, it sounds like he knows the cache and the placer(s) in question. Taking him up on his offer sounds like it may be the best way to voice your concerns, without the cache owners feeling like they are being criticized.

 

I applaud your interest in keeping the sport of geocaching alive, while at the same time ensuring good stewardship of the land. Welcome to the sport. icon_smile.gif

 

-------

"I may be slow, but at least I'm sweet!" 196939_800.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

 

It's easy to find out which cache it is. If you were a real geocacher, you'd know how to do so. You would also know how to contact the cache owner with your concerns.


 

Let's try to give this person the benefit of the doubt, ok? If it's someone new to the sport, we shouldn't assume that they would automatically know how to do the things being asked about. I thought trailmaven's note was very nicely written, and seemed to show genuine concern. In his/her shoes, I'd find your reply very condescending and unwelcoming. It would make me question whether geocaching and geocachers were the kind of activity and people I'd want to further associate myself with.

 

Try not to forget that we were all newbies (to both Geocaching and computers) at one time...and things that seem very straightforward now might not have always seemed so simple.

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quote:
Recently I watched a geocacher find a cache in the area along the Deschutes River known as Steelhead Falls. This person had to hike up a really unstable slope with sensitve vegetation underneath

 

I'm sorry, but your entire post sounds disingenuous. Too many things don't add up. We Geocachers are always concerned about the impact our sport may have on the surrounding area. Accordingly, we are are eager to address any problem that has been brought to our attention. But, you've already learned this from the previous posts.

 

Out of curiosity, what is your agenda?

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

I'm sorry, but your entire post sounds disingenuous. Too many things don't add up. We Geocachers are always concerned about the impact our sport may have on the surrounding area. Accordingly, we are are eager to address any problem that has been brought to our attention. But, you've already learned this from the previous posts.


 

Are you being sincere, or are you just trying to troll?

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quote:
Are you being sincere, or are you just trying to troll?

 

OK they have no finds, no hides and just joined. Their first post is about their observing another geocacher acting "irresponsibly". The poster also seems to be familiar with BLM regulations in the area.

 

Sorry for being cynical, but it all sounds fishy to me.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

OK they have no finds, no hides and just joined. Their first post is about their observing another geocacher acting "irresponsibly".

 

Sounds fishy to me.


 

They happen to be connected to a governmental agency, the Bureau of Land Management. I know this because I do my homework.

 

Simply because they have never posted to the forums before is no reason to greet them with insult.

 

If you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread, kindly stay out of it.

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quote:
They happen to be connected to a governmental agency, the Bureau of Land Management. I know this because I do my homework..

 

Hence the point of my original post. This is not a "concerned geocacher";rather it's a government official, or a self appointed busybody fishing in this forum. They probably already know how to contact the cache owner.

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on November 26, 2002 at 04:56 PM.]

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Brian... take it easy.

 

Reread the first post of this thread. It sounds to me like this person is trying to help out. He never insulted anyone, or made a statement that geocaching was hurting the environment. His concern was that a particular cache has potential to make geocaching a problem, and he wanted to fix that problem.

 

No.. I don't think the person is a geocacher. No finds, no hides, first post. But he asked for information on how to get ahold of the owner of the cache in question to discuss the matter with them, Mr. Snazz supplied the information.

 

In my opinion, that should have been the end of the thread. Question asked. Answer provided.

 

Thank you, Snazz.

 

Jamie

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

 

This is not a "concerned geocacher";rather it's a government official, or a self appointed busybody fishing in this forum.


 

It's actually possible for a person to be BOTH a geocacher AND a park manager and/or government official. I got the impression that trailmaven might be someone who's just found out about geocaching (perhaps they spoke to the person they observed, and that's how they found out what the person was doing off trail?), and is interested in finding a compromise between keeping the cache while minimizing impact on the land and vegitation:

 

quote:
Originally posted by trailmaven:

 

I'd like to keep geocaching and don't want to be considered a "problem" by public land managers or private landowners.


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quote:
... But he asked for information on how to get ahold of the owner of the cache in question to discuss the matter with them, Mr. Snazz supplied the information.

 

He could try to be honest. That isn't a heck of a lot to ask. He could have said "I'm a BLM employee and I need to get in touch with the cache owner".

 

I still say the poster was fishing. I'm not sure what for, but he was.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

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SnazzDude, chill. You southerners are so high strung icon_wink.gif

 

I didn't see anything insulting in Brian's post, and I have to agree with him. There seems to be much tap dancing in that first post, something seems to have been held back.

 

I like to think that as a group/organization we are, for the most part, pretty cooperative. "Up front" would be the best way to handle this. I'm also glad that he didn't come across as "owning" the property in question- in other words, he gave "us" the benefit of the doubt.

 

Pretty mellow post all around eh?

 

BTW, where did he say he worked for BLM? (private email?)

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

BTW, where did he say he worked for BLM? (private email?)


 

Something like that.

 

They may have not wanted to mention it, to avoid giving the impression of their post being an official statement. There are many reasons that a person might do this, I'm sure that I don't have to list them.

 

snazzsig.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

We Geocachers are always concerned about the impact our sport may have on the surrounding area. Accordingly, we are are eager to address any problem that has been brought to our attention.


 

Bull ****.

 

Just because we are all grouped in a particular hobby, you can't just assume everyone is going to do "the right thing" all the time. Just read back through the forums, you'll see many people who don't care what they have to kill or cut down in order to find a cache. And as for cachers being willing to address any problems... well, that is a big crock of **** as well.

 

Sure, MOST geocachers are considerate of people and places... but not all of them. Hell, just look at that recent thread where someone was removing caches that they thought were poorly placed. You can tell from many of the heated replies in that thread that people aren't always going to be helpful and considerate if the caches they have placed are question or accused of being illegally or poorly placed. icon_mad.gif

 

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The NEW Toe Pages
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quote:
Just because we are all grouped in a particular hobby, you can't just assume everyone is going to do "the right thing" all the time.
.

 

I never said every geocacher always does the right thing every time, but as a group we generally try to.

 

quote:

Just read back through the forums, you'll see many people who don't care what they have to kill or cut down in order to find a cache.


 

I too read about these instances. In most cases, the offender was severely reprimanded in the forums and the situation was usually recitfied somehow.

 

quote:
And as for cachers being willing to address any problems... well, that is a big crock of **** as well.

 

I disagree. I believe most geocachers will address a problem that has been pointed out to them.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

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We would never want to harm a place with a cache and the subsequent cache hunts. Those who know us or of our caches know that. I will temporarily disable the cache and try to get back to change it's location. True that it is on a slope. True that people can access it via clear game trails. True that sometimes geocachers don't think about anything but heading straight to the cache. We placed it where we did because there was already a letterbox in the area and we didn't want to put them too close.

 

Thanks Snazz for letting me know this was such a hot issue, and giving us the benefit of the doubt. It is easy to look at some cache location and NOT realize that the people who put it there really were trying to make it an enjoyable and adventuresome experience. I should have known better, as this area is quite popular.

 

Thanks to those of you who found and enjoyed the cache! I hope I can find a place suitable to everyones concerns.

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WOW. It is exciting to see that you all are so attentive and concerned. I will not take offense by the discussion, though I am relieved to see there is a balance of personalities out there -- some that jump to conclusions and others that seem to work well with others.

 

Briansnat threw out lots of insinuations about my "honesty". I choose not to take offense at that. I think MrSnazz has a great attitude and seems to be a person who is a good representative of the organization. I will continue to be a member because of people like him and ZZoey, Zuckerruebensirup,cachers who actually care, not ones who simply espouse the attitude and don't live it.

 

I am a BLM employee, albeit a lowly one. I am a recreation planner. My goal and agenda is to keep responsible and non-destructive recreation happening on public lands for BLM. I included my email address at BLM in my info to MrSnazz when I registered. If I were trying to hide stuff I would have signed on from home and been very icognito. I simply used my favorite trail name from the Appalachian Trail and from my other trail work in the past. That doesn't seem so different from many of you. I never put personal info on any list I sign onto, this is no different.

 

I live in Central Oregon. This is my home. I care about the land here. I have been the one that takes care of Steelhead Falls. I have been physically repairing eroded slopes there. I have been working hard for the past year to fix the trail there, protect the eagle nests, protect the sensitive plant species that get walk upon; i even repair the graffitti on the beautiful cliff walls there. I have a stake in what happens not only that that area but the entire Urban Interface around Bend, Redmond, LaPine, Prineville etc. (and Briansnat the term Urban Interface here is relative --- its not Camden) Perhaps Briansnat who is from Morris County NJ has never been here to appreciate the area but I have spent considerable time working and living where he is from. He has to go to the Newark Resevoir to see wildlife like bears, or eagles. He could hike the NJ Highlands trail and maybe see some stuff as well. NJ Maybe the seat of the American Revolution but it isn't Central Oregon. The folks at Crooked River Ranch can go enjoy these areas in their back yard. They appreciate the place alot that's why so many of them volunteer to help do projects out at Steelhead.

 

Per the comment about "not being honest" and identifying myself -- I didn't think I needed to ID myself that clearly. I wasn't yet contacting in any sort of "offcial capacity" so why can't I be as ambiguois as you all are? I wasn't attacking anyone, My agenda was to search for information to change a problem that , it seemed, someone didn't know about. iT seemed like a little thing at this point. From the reply from ZZoey, they seem like really thoughtful responsible people. That was my agenda -- to reach them. It was my first time on your site with a personal login but I look at it on a weekly basis. No I didn't know how to work the contact system and maybe I guess my question on the forum was to bring the issue out to a bigger audience anyway. All the land agencies are looking at Geocaching and considering where they will allow it or where not. Its a new sport and its impacts are not going unnoticed.

 

I have only recently signed up on your list. I do own a GPS and yes I look for your caches and don't participate on the page in general. I do my own thing. I also meet people looking for caches all over BLM. Considering how many caches are on BLM in Central Oregon, I have noticed that people are not following what should be a primary guideline -- Contacting the landowner. Our district has not received contacts before people have placed caches anywhere. The one at Steelhead Falls, would not have been placed had ZZoey let us know where. If she had talked to me I would have adjusted the location so that it wasn't impacting wildlife. It still could be placed but in a better location. By the way if I have been vague about which wildlife, it is a policy of the agency not to mention specifics when dealing with listed or endangered species. I can't say which species.

 

I have the opportunity right now to provide input on recreation activities on BLM lands in Central Oregon. So does your group. At this point I usually like geocachers and the form of recreation. You aren't shooting up trees, ripping out vegetation, tearing up soils with big truck tires or killing things out of season. That's a plus in my book. But being responsible has many sides and one is to work with the agencies to place your cache's in sites that don't create long term damage to a species of plant or animal.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to participate. I will contact ZZoey and help to provide suggestions on a better location. In the future, I hope I don't have to be "official" to participate. Or that if I am "official" I can't participate.

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Well thanks for the compliment! Most of us are nice and fun people and we are just participating in a newly found and exciting game. I appreciate what you do and we really enjoyed the trail. I think I know what species you look after, and we didn't see any but hope to! I hope to see you get involved in geocaching. It is refreshing to hear another voice and your concerns are definitely taken to heart at least by me. We tend to be introverted and shy people by nature.. not all but many. I have to admit we have been pretty NON-permission-getting. This is a great wake up call. Thanks for being understanding and maybe sometime we will run into you. We live in Madras and love the Deschutes, Crooked and Metolius rivers and all the canyons, buttes, basins and forests between them. I think we all agree it is well worth preserving and we will try our best to do just that.

 

Most of the time people put caches in locations that are a little off the beaten path. Perhaps you know of a really neat place, and think the 10-30 people a year who find it.. would love it too. It is so fun to share these places that we tend to forget that by sharing them, we put those places at risk, by more people knowing about them. Sortof a double edged sword but it exists. I have known of one fossil location, told someone about it, and that person whom I thought I knew and trusted, completely destroyed the sensitive fossil site. Here I was extracating these fossils with soft brushes and dental tools, and this guy take a wheelbarrow, a couple shovels and a screen... the site will never be the same. I have very little respect for the guy after that. He just didn't think. He thought hey it's there i am gonna take it.. who cares what happens after i leave. Greed I guess.

 

I think there are a few caches that we have out there that we will probably need to move just because so many folks have logged them. I don't want a beaten path to the caches! So, I think we will cycle caches and move them around and keep people guessing!

 

Thanks and have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

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Trailmaven. I appreciate your concern for the Descutes. My quarrel with your post was that you didn't identify yourself off the bat. I had a feeling that you were acting in some official, or semi-official capacity and my suspicions proved correct. I'm glad that the situation you encountered will be taken care of thanks to Mr Snazz.

 

quote:
Perhaps Briansnat who is from Morris County NJ has never been here to appreciate the area but I have spent considerable time working and living where he is from. He has to go to the Newark Resevoir to see wildlife like bears, or eagles. He could hike the NJ Highlands trail and maybe see some stuff as well.

 

Thanks for the advice, but I don't need to go to the Newark watershed to see wildlife. I get plenty of bear in my backyard and see an ocassional bald eagle at a lake a half mile from my house.

 

I hike the Highlands Trail often and I'm quite familiar with it. In fact I was one of the people who built it.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

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Briansnat, Its very interesting that you helped build that trail. I did too. I was very responsible for making sure that it was completed both physically and politically. and I hiked the entire trail from start to finish when completed.

 

I've probably met you.

 

I wouldn't have even had to sent a posting if I had seen a posting about this issue, as was promised, in the log for the site, by the person I met out there. And by the way just becasue I don't fully participate and log in at the sites doesn't mean I'm not participating.

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Trailmaven, we may well have met, but a lot of people were involved in building the HT. Since

you played a key role, I'm sure I've at least heard of you (I was just a grunt). I'm a NY/NJ TC volunteer and have worked on several trail building projects, the Highlands and the Farney Highlands trails among them. I also maintain sections of the Hoeferlin and Cannonball Trails in Ramapo Mtn SF.

 

Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate and share your concerns about inappropriately placed caches. The geocaching community's self-policing of the sport is an important part of its being accepted by local land managers.

 

This forum is the place to to discuss poorly placed caches, but most people here feel that the cache owner should be contacted directly before the issue is brought before the group. I now realize that your unfamiliarty with this website is the reason you came to this forum first.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

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