Golden Rule

3k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:
Is it fair to use someone else's travel bug as "bait"? I try to leave travel bugs in caches that tend to get a decent amount of activity...in hopes of giving the TB a better chance of continuing to move, rather than sitting stagnant in an unpopular cache.

Yes, people like travel bugs, and this method seems to work very well in enticing people to visit less-visited or out-of-the-way caches. Every one I've left at caches like this has been picked up within a reasonable amount of time ... and several of them were replaced with other travel bugs. This also pretty much guarantees the bug is being picked up by somebody who knows what a travel bug is, and what to do with it.

We could turn your question around and say "Is it fair to leave a poor, defenseless travel bug in a 1/1 cache where some ignorant newbie can get his/her hands on it?"

(And NO, folks, the question within the "rolling eyes" is not my opinion; it's "for demonstration purposes only.")

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on May 24, 2002 at 08:01 AM.]

3k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:
Is it fair to use someone else's travel bug as "bait"? I try to leave travel bugs in caches that tend to get a decent amount of activity...in hopes of giving the TB a better chance of continuing to move, rather than sitting stagnant in an unpopular cache.

Yes, people like travel bugs, and this method seems to work very well in enticing people to visit less-visited or out-of-the-way caches. Every one I've left at caches like this has been picked up within a reasonable amount of time ... and several of them were replaced with other travel bugs. This also pretty much guarantees the bug is being picked up by somebody who knows what a travel bug is, and what to do with it.

We could turn your question around and say "Is it fair to leave a poor, defenseless travel bug in a 1/1 cache where some ignorant newbie can get his/her hands on it?"

(And NO, folks, the question within the "rolling eyes" is not my opinion; it's "for demonstration purposes only.")

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on May 24, 2002 at 08:01 AM.]

1.1k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
Yes, people like travel bugs, and this method seems to work very well in enticing people to visit less-visited or out-of-the-way caches. Every one I've left at caches like this has been picked up within a reasonable amount of time ... and several of them were replaced with other travel bugs. This pretty much guarantees the bug is being picked up by somebody who knows what a travel bug is, and what to do with it.

Ah, a guarantee? I envy your optimism. (Besides, knowing what a travel bug is, and what to do with it...and actually following through with it, aren't always the same thing.)

I'm curious what you consider a "reasonable" amount of time, and whether all the owners of the bugs you've placed be in agreement with your assessment.

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
We could turn your question around and say "Is it fair to leave a poor, defenseless travel bug in a 1/1 cache where some ignorant newbie can get his/her hands on it?"

Coincidentally, I've seen plenty of "experienced" cachers who are rude, ignorant, or inconsiderate, too. I find it a bit closed-minded to equate "newbie" to "ignorant". The information for 5/5 caches are just as available to the newbies as the 1/1's are, so I'm not sure what your point is.

As for where it's better to leave a travel bug, it really depends on the wishes of the owner of that particular bug. When in doubt, communication works wonders.

The reason I place bugs is because I hope to see them reach the specific goals I've set out for them...I don't do it to promote other people's caches. If someone isn't willing to go to a really cool cache unless it has a travel bug in it, then it's their loss, in my opinion.

1.1k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
Yes, people like travel bugs, and this method seems to work very well in enticing people to visit less-visited or out-of-the-way caches. Every one I've left at caches like this has been picked up within a reasonable amount of time ... and several of them were replaced with other travel bugs. This pretty much guarantees the bug is being picked up by somebody who knows what a travel bug is, and what to do with it.

Ah, a guarantee? I envy your optimism. (Besides, knowing what a travel bug is, and what to do with it...and actually following through with it, aren't always the same thing.)

I'm curious what you consider a "reasonable" amount of time, and whether all the owners of the bugs you've placed be in agreement with your assessment.

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
We could turn your question around and say "Is it fair to leave a poor, defenseless travel bug in a 1/1 cache where some ignorant newbie can get his/her hands on it?"

Coincidentally, I've seen plenty of "experienced" cachers who are rude, ignorant, or inconsiderate, too. I find it a bit closed-minded to equate "newbie" to "ignorant". The information for 5/5 caches are just as available to the newbies as the 1/1's are, so I'm not sure what your point is.

As for where it's better to leave a travel bug, it really depends on the wishes of the owner of that particular bug. When in doubt, communication works wonders.

The reason I place bugs is because I hope to see them reach the specific goals I've set out for them...I don't do it to promote other people's caches. If someone isn't willing to go to a really cool cache unless it has a travel bug in it, then it's their loss, in my opinion.

May 24, 2002

As long as the placement of the TB does not directly contradict the owner's wishes, I think Bassoon Pilot's placement idea is quite clever. Many people go out of their way to pick up a TB. This seems like a great way to get them to a unique, but rarely visited, cache. It also allows them to pick up a TB at a cache they might not have already visited.

And, BP, thanks for clearing up that newbie comment. I know how easy it is to have a post misunderstood.

May 24, 2002

As long as the placement of the TB does not directly contradict the owner's wishes, I think Bassoon Pilot's placement idea is quite clever. Many people go out of their way to pick up a TB. This seems like a great way to get them to a unique, but rarely visited, cache. It also allows them to pick up a TB at a cache they might not have already visited.

And, BP, thanks for clearing up that newbie comment. I know how easy it is to have a post misunderstood.

3k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Ah, a guarantee? I envy your optimism. (Besides, _knowing_ what a travel bug is, and what to do with it...and actually _following through_ with it, aren't always the same thing.)

True enough. But that was a "qualified" guarantee, you should have noticed.

quote:
I'm curious what you consider a "reasonable" amount of time, and whether all the owners of the bugs you've placed be in agreement with your assessment.

In reverse order: I received precisely zero complaints, questions, comments, or communication of any kind from any travel bug owner about any cache into which I placed their bug. "Reasonable amount of time" varied between a day or two and a month ... well within the "standard parameters" I notice for all travel bugs.

quote:
Coincidentally, I've seen plenty of "experienced" cachers who are rude, ignorant, or inconsiderate, too.

Let's see ... my post didn't mention anything about "rude or inconsiderate," so that is extraneous material; but yes, I did notice you removed the "slow but sweet" signature from the preceding post.

quote:
I find it a bit closed-minded to equate "newbie" to "ignorant".

You saw the disclaimer.

quote:
The information for 5/5 caches are just as available to the newbies as the 1/1's are, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Newbies/Old timers was neither the subject nor focus of my post, but to humor you: Do you know of many new cachers who "break in" on 5/5 caches?

quote:
As for where it's better to leave a travel bug, it really depends on the wishes of the owner of that particular bug.

So why your concern, then?

quote:
The reason _I_ place bugs is because I hope to see them reach the specific goals I've set out for them...I don't do it to promote other people's caches.

That's nice. Very self-centered, of course, but nice.

3k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Ah, a guarantee? I envy your optimism. (Besides, _knowing_ what a travel bug is, and what to do with it...and actually _following through_ with it, aren't always the same thing.)

True enough. But that was a "qualified" guarantee, you should have noticed.

quote:
I'm curious what you consider a "reasonable" amount of time, and whether all the owners of the bugs you've placed be in agreement with your assessment.

In reverse order: I received precisely zero complaints, questions, comments, or communication of any kind from any travel bug owner about any cache into which I placed their bug. "Reasonable amount of time" varied between a day or two and a month ... well within the "standard parameters" I notice for all travel bugs.

quote:
Coincidentally, I've seen plenty of "experienced" cachers who are rude, ignorant, or inconsiderate, too.

Let's see ... my post didn't mention anything about "rude or inconsiderate," so that is extraneous material; but yes, I did notice you removed the "slow but sweet" signature from the preceding post.

quote:
I find it a bit closed-minded to equate "newbie" to "ignorant".

You saw the disclaimer.

quote:
The information for 5/5 caches are just as available to the newbies as the 1/1's are, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Newbies/Old timers was neither the subject nor focus of my post, but to humor you: Do you know of many new cachers who "break in" on 5/5 caches?

quote:
As for where it's better to leave a travel bug, it really depends on the wishes of the owner of that particular bug.

So why your concern, then?

quote:
The reason _I_ place bugs is because I hope to see them reach the specific goals I've set out for them...I don't do it to promote other people's caches.

That's nice. Very self-centered, of course, but nice.

3k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by geospotter:
As long as the placement of the TB does not directly contradict the owner's wishes, I think Bassoon Pilot's placement idea is quite clever. Many people go out of their way to pick up a TB. This seems like a great way to get them to a unique, but rarely visited, cache. It also allows them to pick up a TB at a cache they might not have already visited.

Precisely!

1.1k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

But that was a "qualified" guarantee, you should have noticed.

Yes, I did notice. And I still envy your optimism.

quote:
I received precisely zero complaints, questions, comments, or communication of any kind from any travel bug owner about any cache into which I placed their bug. "Reasonable amount of time" varied between a day or two and a month ... well within the "standard parameters" I notice for all travel bugs.

Sounds reasonable enough to me.

quote:
Let's see ... my post didn't mention anything about "rude or inconsiderate," so that is extraneous material;

Perhaps I misunderstood your intentions, but it sounded to me that you were implying that "newbies" were likely to NOT move a travel bug along in a satisfactory manner. From my experience, ignorance isn't the only (or even primary) reason that bugs get lost, delayed, or diverted from their goals. I don't see how my comment was any more extraneous than your remark about "ignorant newbies".

quote:
I did notice you removed the "slow but sweet" signature from the preceding post.

I try to make a habit of unchecking the "signature" line in subsequent posts to the same topic thread, so that people don't have to continually scroll through the same redundant (and extraneous) statements over and over again.

But thanks for noticing, and taking the time to comment on it. ( Now what was that you brought up about "extraneous" remarks?)

quote:
You saw the disclaimer.

Actually, you added it after I had already hit the "reply" button...so, no I didn't see the disclaimer (until now). But now that I see it, thanks for the clarification. I'm glad to hear you're not as close-minded as you orginally appeared.

quote:
Newbies/Old timers was neither the subject nor focus of my post, but to humor you:

(Perhaps it wasn't the focus, but you did bring it up, none the less. I was merely responding to your comment. So I'm not sure how you consider it humoring me when it was YOU that brought up the topic.)

quote:
Do you know of many new cachers who "break in" on 5/5 caches?

No, but I imagine it's not many. But then, it also seems that only a very small percentage of cachers do 5/5 caches PERIOD, whether they are new or not. So, again...I'm not sure what your point is.

quote:
So why your concern, then?

I was sharing my opinion on the topic. Since I have travel bugs out there, I think that gives me a legitimate right to voice that opinion. (Just as you are allowed to voice yours.) Living in a country with free speech is great, isn't it?

quote:
That's nice. Very self-centered, of course, but nice.

How exactly is that "nice"?

Self-centered? "Very" self-centered, even?

Sure, if you say so. Does it say somewhere that when we purchase travel bug tags, that it should be with the intent to help someone else out? I guess I missed that part. (Besides, if others don't want to help move my bugs towards their goals, I'm not twisting anyone's arm to take them out of a cache.)

On the other hand, when I pick up a travel bug, I try to help it toward its goal (if it has one) if practical. As I mentioned before, I think it's the travel bug owners wishes that matter. (If it's MY travel bug that means MY wishes. If it's someone ELSE's travel bug, it means THEIR wishes.) That's not self-centered...that's bug-owner-centered.

But then, apparently you released your travel bug, not in order to see the goals you set for it get met, but rather to help others out somehow? Now that's nice.

1.1k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

But that was a "qualified" guarantee, you should have noticed.

Yes, I did notice. And I still envy your optimism.

quote:
I received precisely zero complaints, questions, comments, or communication of any kind from any travel bug owner about any cache into which I placed their bug. "Reasonable amount of time" varied between a day or two and a month ... well within the "standard parameters" I notice for all travel bugs.

Sounds reasonable enough to me.

quote:
Let's see ... my post didn't mention anything about "rude or inconsiderate," so that is extraneous material;

Perhaps I misunderstood your intentions, but it sounded to me that you were implying that "newbies" were likely to NOT move a travel bug along in a satisfactory manner. From my experience, ignorance isn't the only (or even primary) reason that bugs get lost, delayed, or diverted from their goals. I don't see how my comment was any more extraneous than your remark about "ignorant newbies".

quote:
I did notice you removed the "slow but sweet" signature from the preceding post.

I try to make a habit of unchecking the "signature" line in subsequent posts to the same topic thread, so that people don't have to continually scroll through the same redundant (and extraneous) statements over and over again.

But thanks for noticing, and taking the time to comment on it. ( Now what was that you brought up about "extraneous" remarks?)

quote:
You saw the disclaimer.

Actually, you added it after I had already hit the "reply" button...so, no I didn't see the disclaimer (until now). But now that I see it, thanks for the clarification. I'm glad to hear you're not as close-minded as you orginally appeared.

quote:
Newbies/Old timers was neither the subject nor focus of my post, but to humor you:

(Perhaps it wasn't the focus, but you did bring it up, none the less. I was merely responding to your comment. So I'm not sure how you consider it humoring me when it was YOU that brought up the topic.)

quote:
Do you know of many new cachers who "break in" on 5/5 caches?

No, but I imagine it's not many. But then, it also seems that only a very small percentage of cachers do 5/5 caches PERIOD, whether they are new or not. So, again...I'm not sure what your point is.

quote:
So why your concern, then?

I was sharing my opinion on the topic. Since I have travel bugs out there, I think that gives me a legitimate right to voice that opinion. (Just as you are allowed to voice yours.) Living in a country with free speech is great, isn't it?

quote:
That's nice. Very self-centered, of course, but nice.

How exactly is that "nice"?

Self-centered? "Very" self-centered, even?

Sure, if you say so. Does it say somewhere that when we purchase travel bug tags, that it should be with the intent to help someone else out? I guess I missed that part. (Besides, if others don't want to help move my bugs towards their goals, I'm not twisting anyone's arm to take them out of a cache.)

On the other hand, when I pick up a travel bug, I try to help it toward its goal (if it has one) if practical. As I mentioned before, I think it's the travel bug owners wishes that matter. (If it's MY travel bug that means MY wishes. If it's someone ELSE's travel bug, it means THEIR wishes.) That's not self-centered...that's bug-owner-centered.

But then, apparently you released your travel bug, not in order to see the goals you set for it get met, but rather to help others out somehow? Now that's nice.

May 24, 2002

Without 'forcing' anyone to read anything they are not interested in, here are some articles that deal with this topic of ethics. I will give the title and the link...

Can a system of ethics be sustained apart from a belief in moral absolutes?

Absolute tolerance is altogether impossible.

Who are you to force your morality?

Excuse the Christian slant to these articles, but religions such as Christianity/Judaism etc. are supporters of the western idea of absolute truth/morality compared to the eastern notion of relativism both in truth and morality. A fascinating book that challenges our blind acceptance of the currently popular idea that 'all truth is equal' is called Relativism: Feet firmly planted in Mid-Air.

I am only intending these articles to add to the friendly discussion. I don't have time to argue with anyone. But, as the discussion is incorporating these issues that I find fascinating, I thought these would add something that you might not have thought about. It is nice that we can take this hobby/sport and incorporate our other interests in the friendly respectful spirit that we have all come to expect here.

Half my life is spent explaining to Christians why I am a deadhead. The other half is spent explaining to deadheads why I am a Christian.

-Dru Morgan www.theheavenlyhost.com

3k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

You saw the disclaimer.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Actually, you added it after I had already hit the "reply" button...so, no I _didn't_ see the disclaimer (until now).

Ack. Well, I posted the item at 7:50 and edited it a couple of times between then and the final edit at 8:01, and you submitted your post at 8:32. With that kind of lapse between hitting the reply button and actually posting the reply, I guess it's a good idea to check back on what you're commenting on ... I participated in one thread where I did the same thing, but the person I quoted and posted a reply to had deleted their entire post! My reply looked quite out of place ...

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

So why your concern, then?

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

I was sharing my opinion on the topic. Since I have travel bugs out there, I think that gives me a legitimate right to voice that opinion. (Just as you are allowed to voice yours.) Living in a country with free speech is great, isn't it?

Yes, it is. But questioning the appropriateness of my placements and the reactions of the bug owners does not constitute an opinion. I guess I just don't know what your point was.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Self-centered? "Very" self-centered, even? Sure, if you say so. Does it say somewhere that when we purchase travel bug tags, that it should be with the intent to help someone else out? I guess I missed that part.

How absurd. As a travel bug owner, you are counting on others to help you out by moving your bug along, according to your agenda, and by providing locations for the bugs to be stored safely until grabbed.

But I do agree with you, in part: The stated goals of a bug should be adhered to as much as possible. But it is completely beyond the bug owner's control. On the practical side, once the travel bug leaves its owner's possession, that bug becomes in effect a "promotional item" in whatever cache it is placed.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

(Besides, if others don't want to help move my bugs towards their goals, I'm not twisting anyone's arm to take them out of a cache.)

And neither, unfortunately, can you stop them.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

But then, apparently you released your travel bug, not in order to see the goals you set for it get met, but rather to help others out somehow? Now _that's_ nice.

Apparently. The picnic bug has no real goal but for people to have some fun with it ... there were "no strings attached." According to the logbook at the cache site, it was the first item snagged from the cache into which it had been placed. (Although the person who claimed it hasn't logged it online yet ... )

But besides the picnic bug, I've also put several not-yet-activated bugs into caches as "cache prizes," allowing whoever picked one up to activate it, attach their own item and set their own goal. They get snagged as fast as I can place them ... even faster than activated bugs. Another 8 just arrived today that I plan to do the same thing with. And yes, I think that is doing something nice for someone else; it definitely serves to promote whatever cache I placed one in, and I enjoy the benefit of watching how the new owner chooses to use it and where their bug goes. And most people consider them a step or two up from a broken McToy.

3k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

You saw the disclaimer.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Actually, you added it after I had already hit the "reply" button...so, no I _didn't_ see the disclaimer (until now).

Ack. Well, I posted the item at 7:50 and edited it a couple of times between then and the final edit at 8:01, and you submitted your post at 8:32. With that kind of lapse between hitting the reply button and actually posting the reply, I guess it's a good idea to check back on what you're commenting on ... I participated in one thread where I did the same thing, but the person I quoted and posted a reply to had deleted their entire post! My reply looked quite out of place ...

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

So why your concern, then?

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

I was sharing my opinion on the topic. Since I have travel bugs out there, I think that gives me a legitimate right to voice that opinion. (Just as you are allowed to voice yours.) Living in a country with free speech is great, isn't it?

Yes, it is. But questioning the appropriateness of my placements and the reactions of the bug owners does not constitute an opinion. I guess I just don't know what your point was.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Self-centered? "Very" self-centered, even? Sure, if you say so. Does it say somewhere that when we purchase travel bug tags, that it should be with the intent to help someone else out? I guess I missed that part.

How absurd. As a travel bug owner, you are counting on others to help you out by moving your bug along, according to your agenda, and by providing locations for the bugs to be stored safely until grabbed.

But I do agree with you, in part: The stated goals of a bug should be adhered to as much as possible. But it is completely beyond the bug owner's control. On the practical side, once the travel bug leaves its owner's possession, that bug becomes in effect a "promotional item" in whatever cache it is placed.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

(Besides, if others don't want to help move my bugs towards their goals, I'm not twisting anyone's arm to take them out of a cache.)

And neither, unfortunately, can you stop them.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

But then, apparently you released your travel bug, not in order to see the goals you set for it get met, but rather to help others out somehow? Now _that's_ nice.

Apparently. The picnic bug has no real goal but for people to have some fun with it ... there were "no strings attached." According to the logbook at the cache site, it was the first item snagged from the cache into which it had been placed. (Although the person who claimed it hasn't logged it online yet ... )

But besides the picnic bug, I've also put several not-yet-activated bugs into caches as "cache prizes," allowing whoever picked one up to activate it, attach their own item and set their own goal. They get snagged as fast as I can place them ... even faster than activated bugs. Another 8 just arrived today that I plan to do the same thing with. And yes, I think that is doing something nice for someone else; it definitely serves to promote whatever cache I placed one in, and I enjoy the benefit of watching how the new owner chooses to use it and where their bug goes. And most people consider them a step or two up from a broken McToy.

May 24, 2002

The Heavenly Host, I really enjoyed those links you posted. I just finished reading them, and were very interesting, I've bookmarked them, and am planning on importing them to my palm as well. Thanks!

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

May 24, 2002

Originally posted by RAD Dad:
The Heavenly Host, I really enjoyed those links you posted. I just finished reading them, and were very interesting, I've bookmarked them, and am planning on importing them to my palm as well. Thanks!

QUOTE]

I'm glad you read them in the spirit that they were intended. I am fascinated by the philosophical implications of absolute truth vs. relativism. I grew up in a very liberal family, and followed the Grateful Dead around the country for 5 years. I really just took the idea of 'truth is relative' for granted. It just seemed right. But, after reading some pretty neat essays on the subject, I can truly see that Liberal Tolerance is neither. I approach the idea not to force my views on anyone, but at least to set it up so that I am on the same playing field as anyone I discuss any issue with, so we can both walk away from a discussion having gained something. I never thought that this site would be a forum for discussing ethics, but I'm glad to see we are a group that realizes that we have a responsibility that comes with our rights and not all of us are afraid to step up to the plate and offer something that we believe in. Have a great weekend.

-Dru

Half my life is spent explaining to Christians why I am a deadhead. The other half is spent explaining to deadheads why I am a Christian.

-Dru Morgan www.theheavenlyhost.com

May 24, 2002

Originally posted by RAD Dad:
The Heavenly Host, I really enjoyed those links you posted. I just finished reading them, and were very interesting, I've bookmarked them, and am planning on importing them to my palm as well. Thanks!

QUOTE]

I'm glad you read them in the spirit that they were intended. I am fascinated by the philosophical implications of absolute truth vs. relativism. I grew up in a very liberal family, and followed the Grateful Dead around the country for 5 years. I really just took the idea of 'truth is relative' for granted. It just seemed right. But, after reading some pretty neat essays on the subject, I can truly see that Liberal Tolerance is neither. I approach the idea not to force my views on anyone, but at least to set it up so that I am on the same playing field as anyone I discuss any issue with, so we can both walk away from a discussion having gained something. I never thought that this site would be a forum for discussing ethics, but I'm glad to see we are a group that realizes that we have a responsibility that comes with our rights and not all of us are afraid to step up to the plate and offer something that we believe in. Have a great weekend.

-Dru

Half my life is spent explaining to Christians why I am a deadhead. The other half is spent explaining to deadheads why I am a Christian.

-Dru Morgan www.theheavenlyhost.com

May 24, 2002

I'm sorry... did I miss something?

I don't put geocaches together for the random group of thirteen year old malcontents who MIGHT plunder it. And if they happen upon my cache, and decide to STEAL it and use the contents for their own personal enjoyment, do you really think that the tiny $1.69 pocket/keychain knife is going to murder someone or become more of a hardened criminal based on that trinket? If so, then I should be concerned about screwdrivers (they could use it to break into a house, car or ATM machine!), water balloons (they could fill them up with ammonia and drop them into a small mound of TIDE laundry powder and start a nasty arson fire!), golf tees, plastic sporks, or sewing kits (these are small pointy objects - God knows what kind of mischief THEY could do!) or any other number of items that IN THE WRONG, CRIMINALLY-ORIENTED HANDS can do a great deal of damage.

Please! Waterproof matches left in a geocache that is twenty miles from the nearest paved roadway is NOT a bad thing to leave! If my tire went flat because of the scree I drove over to get to the parking area of that geocache in the wilderness and my cellphone (which I refuse to own, by the way) was out of signal range, I would be thrilled to find that box of w/p matches, a lighter, an emergency blanket, etc. They are handy, useful items and I for one will not stop using them as cache booty.

I certainly refuse to adapt my mentality of what I use for cache trade items based on whether or not some child who's parents forgot to teach them about reality or that No means No, or didn't kick them in the a$$ enough when they were bad will do something destructive with it after they have pilfered it from a cache container.

Beer and wine are nice condiments for cooking. It is unsuitable for consumption by minors. It doesn't keep them from getting it, or guns, or matches or knives to do with what they will. If these people's parents can't or refuse to control them, does that mean I need to completely alter my behavior to accomodate these little creeps? What happened to MY rights?

Cache On!

----------

Lori aka: RedwoodRed

KF6VFI

"I don't get lost, I investigate alternative destinations."

GeoGadgets Team Website

Comics, Video Games and Movie Fansite

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." - Yoda, Jedi Master from Star Wars - Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

1.1k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

With that kind of lapse between hitting the reply button and actually posting the reply, I guess it's a good idea to check back on what you're commenting on.

Yes, apparently so. Thanks for the advice. You seem to be very generous in that regard.

quote:
But questioning the appropriateness of my placements and the reactions of the bug owners does not constitute an opinion.

So what exactly DOES it constitute then?

In my opinion, the primary motivation for the placement of others' travel bugs should be the goals set out for that bug. If you feel that bugs should be used as bait to attract cachers to a particular cache you like, you're entitled to that opinion...and you're entitled to place them wherever you'd like. Once a bug is 'released' the owner has entrusted those who handle it to use their own judgment on what to do with it next.

quote:
How absurd.

My thoughts exactly!

quote:
As a travel bug owner, you are counting on others to help you out by moving your bug along, according to your agenda, and by providing locations for the bugs to be stored safely until grabbed.

And apparently you consider that "very self-centered".

quote:
I do agree with you, in part: The stated goals of a bug should be adhered to as much as possible. But it is completely beyond the bug owner's control.

Yep. We have to trust each other to honor our wishes, and to help in carrying them out.

quote:
On the practical side, once the travel bug leaves its owner's possession, that bug becomes in effect a "promotional item" in whatever cache it is placed.

Apparently so, from what I've read here.

And as long as it doesn't interfere with the bug's goals, or have a negative impact on the speed at which it travels (which you previously assured me it doesn't) then I don't have a problem with that. The point I was originally trying to make (which you apparently agree with) is that the PRIMARY motivation for moving a bug should be to help it with its goals.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

(Besides, if others don't want to help move my bugs towards their goals, I'm not twisting anyone's arm to take them out of a cache.)

quote:
And neither, unfortunately, can you stop them.

Nope. That's part of the trust thing, and one of the risks we must be willing to take when we release a bug.

quote:
I've also put several not-yet-activated bugs into caches as "cache prizes," allowing whoever picked one up to activate it, attach their own item and set their own goal. They get snagged as fast as I can place them ... even faster than activated bugs.

Ah, if they are so popular, I guess I'm not the only 'self-centered' person out there, then. (Or maybe those people are just eager to get out there and start promoting the caches they particularly enjoy, in a selfless act to help other deserving cache-hiders out.)

{Ok, I'm doing one last quick check to see if you've updated your post since the time I started typing this, in case there's something relevant that I need to address. Nope! Alrighty then, "post" it is.}

1.1k · May 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

With that kind of lapse between hitting the reply button and actually posting the reply, I guess it's a good idea to check back on what you're commenting on.

Yes, apparently so. Thanks for the advice. You seem to be very generous in that regard.

quote:
But questioning the appropriateness of my placements and the reactions of the bug owners does not constitute an opinion.

So what exactly DOES it constitute then?

In my opinion, the primary motivation for the placement of others' travel bugs should be the goals set out for that bug. If you feel that bugs should be used as bait to attract cachers to a particular cache you like, you're entitled to that opinion...and you're entitled to place them wherever you'd like. Once a bug is 'released' the owner has entrusted those who handle it to use their own judgment on what to do with it next.

quote:
How absurd.

My thoughts exactly!

quote:
As a travel bug owner, you are counting on others to help you out by moving your bug along, according to your agenda, and by providing locations for the bugs to be stored safely until grabbed.

And apparently you consider that "very self-centered".

quote:
I do agree with you, in part: The stated goals of a bug should be adhered to as much as possible. But it is completely beyond the bug owner's control.

Yep. We have to trust each other to honor our wishes, and to help in carrying them out.

quote:
On the practical side, once the travel bug leaves its owner's possession, that bug becomes in effect a "promotional item" in whatever cache it is placed.

Apparently so, from what I've read here.

And as long as it doesn't interfere with the bug's goals, or have a negative impact on the speed at which it travels (which you previously assured me it doesn't) then I don't have a problem with that. The point I was originally trying to make (which you apparently agree with) is that the PRIMARY motivation for moving a bug should be to help it with its goals.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

(Besides, if others don't want to help move my bugs towards their goals, I'm not twisting anyone's arm to take them out of a cache.)

quote:
And neither, unfortunately, can you stop them.

Nope. That's part of the trust thing, and one of the risks we must be willing to take when we release a bug.

quote:
I've also put several not-yet-activated bugs into caches as "cache prizes," allowing whoever picked one up to activate it, attach their own item and set their own goal. They get snagged as fast as I can place them ... even faster than activated bugs.

Ah, if they are so popular, I guess I'm not the only 'self-centered' person out there, then. (Or maybe those people are just eager to get out there and start promoting the caches they particularly enjoy, in a selfless act to help other deserving cache-hiders out.)

{Ok, I'm doing one last quick check to see if you've updated your post since the time I started typing this, in case there's something relevant that I need to address. Nope! Alrighty then, "post" it is.}

3k · May 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by me:
On the practical side, once the travel bug leaves its owner's possession, that bug becomes in effect a "promotional item" in whatever cache it is placed.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:
Apparently so, from what I've read here.

And as long as it doesn't interfere with the bug's goals, or have a negative impact on the speed at which it travels (which you previously assured me it doesn't) then I don't have a problem with that.

There can be no "negative impact on the speed at which (the travel bug) travels)" if the cache owner has set no specific time/date goals. I have noticed a few bugs with such goals, but not many.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Ah, if they are so popular, I guess I'm not the only 'self-centered' person out there, then. (Or maybe those people are just eager to get out there and start promoting the caches they particularly enjoy, in a selfless act to help other deserving cache-hiders out.)

A quick review of the "goals" they've set for their bugs reveal no specific goals and no demands placed on finders, so maybe you are.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

The point I was originally trying to make (which you apparently agree with) is that the PRIMARY motivation for moving a bug should be to help it with its goals.

I do. But my primary motivation is to have some fun geocaching, which I'm leaving right now to do.

3k · May 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by me:
On the practical side, once the travel bug leaves its owner's possession, that bug becomes in effect a "promotional item" in whatever cache it is placed.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:
Apparently so, from what I've read here.

And as long as it doesn't interfere with the bug's goals, or have a negative impact on the speed at which it travels (which you previously assured me it doesn't) then I don't have a problem with that.

There can be no "negative impact on the speed at which (the travel bug) travels)" if the cache owner has set no specific time/date goals. I have noticed a few bugs with such goals, but not many.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Ah, if they are so popular, I guess I'm not the only 'self-centered' person out there, then. (Or maybe those people are just eager to get out there and start promoting the caches they particularly enjoy, in a selfless act to help other deserving cache-hiders out.)

A quick review of the "goals" they've set for their bugs reveal no specific goals and no demands placed on finders, so maybe you are.

quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

The point I was originally trying to make (which you apparently agree with) is that the PRIMARY motivation for moving a bug should be to help it with its goals.

I do. But my primary motivation is to have some fun geocaching, which I'm leaving right now to do.

1.1k · May 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

There can be no "negative impact on the speed at which (the travel bug) travels)" if the cache owner has set no specific time/date goals.

Even for travel bugs that don't have specific goals, I imagine most owners would prefer their bug to average a week or so per hop, over having them sit in each cache (and then each cacher's hands) for 2-3 months at a time.

But again, it's a subjective thing. So, unless we do a poll (which I'm not all that interested in, since I'm fairly confident that what I said above is true for a majority of bug owners), it's impossible to know the general consensus. (And even then, we'd only know how the poll responders felt, not the community of TB owners as an entirety.)

But since you seem to really enjoy debating anything/everything a person says who's offered a contrasting opinion to one of your posts, I thought I'd be a good sport, and humor you by sharing my thoughts.

quote:
But __my__ primary motivation is to have some fun geocaching, which I'm leaving right now to do.

Ah, and here I thought it was to have some fun arguing. Happy caching!

[This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on May 25, 2002 at 08:11 AM.]

1.1k · May 25, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

There can be no "negative impact on the speed at which (the travel bug) travels)" if the cache owner has set no specific time/date goals.

Even for travel bugs that don't have specific goals, I imagine most owners would prefer their bug to average a week or so per hop, over having them sit in each cache (and then each cacher's hands) for 2-3 months at a time.

But again, it's a subjective thing. So, unless we do a poll (which I'm not all that interested in, since I'm fairly confident that what I said above is true for a majority of bug owners), it's impossible to know the general consensus. (And even then, we'd only know how the poll responders felt, not the community of TB owners as an entirety.)

But since you seem to really enjoy debating anything/everything a person says who's offered a contrasting opinion to one of your posts, I thought I'd be a good sport, and humor you by sharing my thoughts.

quote:
But __my__ primary motivation is to have some fun geocaching, which I'm leaving right now to do.

Ah, and here I thought it was to have some fun arguing. Happy caching!

[This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on May 25, 2002 at 08:11 AM.]

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