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Golden Rule


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quote:
Originally posted by inceptor:

1. Not all smokers are rude.


Name two. icon_wink.gif

 

Seriously, though, it's sad. I see dozens of smokers every day, and I've never seen one use an ashtray. Even if they're walking by one, I only ever see them litter.

 

quote:

I recently saw a good deal on small pocket knives and was going back to get a few. Now I'm glad I didn't.


 

Go get 'em! Don't deprive the rest of us!

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quote:
Originally posted by inceptor:

1. Not all smokers are rude.


Name two. icon_wink.gif

 

Seriously, though, it's sad. I see dozens of smokers every day, and I've never seen one use an ashtray. Even if they're walking by one, I only ever see them litter.

 

quote:

I recently saw a good deal on small pocket knives and was going back to get a few. Now I'm glad I didn't.


 

Go get 'em! Don't deprive the rest of us!

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who recoiled at the comment on knives. When out and about in the wilderness, a knife is a precious tool, should something unforeseen happen it may save your life.

While I don't carry one now (I lost my last one, I tend to lose knives) I used to carry one all the time, I needed them for work all the time, and always found them handy at home as well.

 

So far as leaving thing better, I agree. I try not to place junk. Why, at a cache my wife and I visited, we forgot our "puts" in the truck. There were two things I wanted, a crazy eights card game for my kids, and some hand tied flies for me. So we left a dollar bill, and a full subway sandwich card, good for one free six inch sub sandwich.

 

When I place my first cache, which I am planning now, I plan on making it full of neat things, and hope that it won't end up full of junk, if it does, I'll have to clean it out and replace it with more good stuff, as I am going to make it harder to get to than the average cache, only reachable by boat (or swimming I guess). I like boating and the water, so most of my caches will be near or even in the water.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Well, in my case, I cache for myself on one level, and another level for the kiddos. I involve them in the hunt as much as possible and when we trade items, it is for them. We have standard items that we take to caches (Battleship Texas items, and San Jacinto Battlefield items) and the kids get to trade for whatever they want. The souveniers from our favorite places are usually more expensive than the items we take out but that is of absolutely no importance to us. Now, in all honesty, there are ocasionally an item that I just have to have (boy scout items are high on my list, having been in Scouting most of my life) so we trade as many or our items as we take out.

 

We have cleaned out caches that we felt needed it as trash or broken items were becoming rampant. We have also let owners know when a cache was ruined by water or other means and gave them a heads up that it needed to be redone.

 

Otherwise, what happens to caches that I do not place is not my business as cache owners are "supposed" to maintain these caches, yes? Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Mac icon_biggrin.gif

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Well, in my case, I cache for myself on one level, and another level for the kiddos. I involve them in the hunt as much as possible and when we trade items, it is for them. We have standard items that we take to caches (Battleship Texas items, and San Jacinto Battlefield items) and the kids get to trade for whatever they want. The souveniers from our favorite places are usually more expensive than the items we take out but that is of absolutely no importance to us. Now, in all honesty, there are ocasionally an item that I just have to have (boy scout items are high on my list, having been in Scouting most of my life) so we trade as many or our items as we take out.

 

We have cleaned out caches that we felt needed it as trash or broken items were becoming rampant. We have also let owners know when a cache was ruined by water or other means and gave them a heads up that it needed to be redone.

 

Otherwise, what happens to caches that I do not place is not my business as cache owners are "supposed" to maintain these caches, yes? Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Mac icon_biggrin.gif

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I feel that the "Golden Rule" of life also applies to GEOCACHING. Do unto other's caches as you would have others do unto your caches. I always try to leave something nice for the next person that comes along. And I try to remove items that aren't appropriate, such as candy, and other food items. In one cache I found a used tube of cocoa-butter scented hand lotion, not a food item, but to a critter it would smell just as good, so I removed it.

 

Another cache I just logged this weekend had entries going back as far as Nov. 3rd. stating that the logbook was so badly soaked that nobody could log their visits. I grabbed a spare notebook and some trash bags, and headed out to fix the problem.

 

In short, if it ain't right,then make it right.

 

_____________

Lost? I'm not lost. At least I don't think I'm lost, well............OK, maybe just a little.

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quote:
Originally posted by Misguided One:

I feel that the "Golden Rule" of life also applies to GEOCACHING. Do unto other's caches as you would have others do unto your caches

Another cache I just logged this weekend had


 

The 'Real' golden rule, unfortunatly, imposes your values, beliefs and judgment on everyone else.

 

For example, I want small interesting pocketknives in my caches, sbell111 doesn't want any knives. I would not want sbell111 removing knives from my caches anymore then I would put them in thiers.

 

I think it was Richard Bach who came up with a better, or at least more honest Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you truly feel like doing unto others." It's not perfect, but it will refect what kind of person you are.

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quote:
Originally posted by ApK:

 

The 'Real' golden rule, unfortunatly, imposes your values, beliefs and judgment on everyone else.

 

For example, I want small interesting pocketknives in my caches, sbell111 doesn't want any knives. I would not want sbell111 removing knives from my caches anymore then I would put them in thiers.

 

I think it was Richard Bach who came up with a better, or at least more honest Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you truly feel like doing unto others." It's not perfect, but it will refect what kind of person you are.


 

I started to just shake my head and pass this one by; but then I thought, "No, someone might actually believe this." So here goes...

 

Let's compare these two "Golden Rules" in the sphere of geocaching to see which yields a more satisfactory result.

 

First, I find cache #1 in a terrible state of disrepair. The last finder left the lid open, the interior of the cache is gooey with melted candy, and the few remaining contents are soaked and consist mainly of broken golf tees and chewed up Happy Meal toys. I'm really disgusted to find such a mess after driving 20 miles and hiking another 2 miles to get here.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" A nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of "clean it up, pack out the trash, resupply it with better stuff (if possible), and close it back up and hide it appropriately when finished; then communicate with the cache owner when you get back home." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: Because I'm so disgusted with what I've found, especially after the long drive and hike, I follow my feelings and throw this lousy, poor-excuse-for-a-cache off the nearby cliff. Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Next, I find cache #2 soon after it has been visited by a follower of the "Old" rule. It's got all kinds of neat stuff! It was well worth the long drive and hike.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" Again, a nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of, "If you're going to take something, try to leave something of equal or greater value; leave the cache and its surroundings in at least as good condition as you found them." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: "I invested some serious time and effort to get here, but it really paid off this time; I've hit the motherlode! There's so much neat stuff here, I can't decide what to take. I truly feel like taking it all. And my 'New Golden Rule' tells me I should do as I truly feel, so..." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Now, which "Golden Rule" do you want to see people practice at your cache? icon_wink.gif

 

Worldtraveler

 

(Note: Sorry for the edits. I wanted to reword a short section and then introduced a typo.)

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 08:53 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 09:00 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by ApK:

 

The 'Real' golden rule, unfortunatly, imposes your values, beliefs and judgment on everyone else.

 

For example, I want small interesting pocketknives in my caches, sbell111 doesn't want any knives. I would not want sbell111 removing knives from my caches anymore then I would put them in thiers.

 

I think it was Richard Bach who came up with a better, or at least more honest Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you truly feel like doing unto others." It's not perfect, but it will refect what kind of person you are.


 

I started to just shake my head and pass this one by; but then I thought, "No, someone might actually believe this." So here goes...

 

Let's compare these two "Golden Rules" in the sphere of geocaching to see which yields a more satisfactory result.

 

First, I find cache #1 in a terrible state of disrepair. The last finder left the lid open, the interior of the cache is gooey with melted candy, and the few remaining contents are soaked and consist mainly of broken golf tees and chewed up Happy Meal toys. I'm really disgusted to find such a mess after driving 20 miles and hiking another 2 miles to get here.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" A nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of "clean it up, pack out the trash, resupply it with better stuff (if possible), and close it back up and hide it appropriately when finished; then communicate with the cache owner when you get back home." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: Because I'm so disgusted with what I've found, especially after the long drive and hike, I follow my feelings and throw this lousy, poor-excuse-for-a-cache off the nearby cliff. Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Next, I find cache #2 soon after it has been visited by a follower of the "Old" rule. It's got all kinds of neat stuff! It was well worth the long drive and hike.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" Again, a nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of, "If you're going to take something, try to leave something of equal or greater value; leave the cache and its surroundings in at least as good condition as you found them." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: "I invested some serious time and effort to get here, but it really paid off this time; I've hit the motherlode! There's so much neat stuff here, I can't decide what to take. I truly feel like taking it all. And my 'New Golden Rule' tells me I should do as I truly feel, so..." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Now, which "Golden Rule" do you want to see people practice at your cache? icon_wink.gif

 

Worldtraveler

 

(Note: Sorry for the edits. I wanted to reword a short section and then introduced a typo.)

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 08:53 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 09:00 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by inceptor:

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

I completely agree with Brokenwing.

 

2. Guess I am realy getting old. When I grew up (and still think this way) a knife was a tool. I usually have a pocket knife on me. NOT AS A WEAPON!


 

I knive is a wonderful tool. It's one of the things you should never go into the woods without. I've taken and left small pocket knives in caches. I find them infinately more useful and fun to find than any toy or other common gadget found in caches.

 

george

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quote:
Originally posted by worldtraveler:

quote:
Originally posted by ApK:

 

The 'Real' golden rule, unfortunatly, imposes your values, beliefs and judgment on everyone else.

 

For example, I want small interesting pocketknives in my caches, sbell111 doesn't want any knives. I would not want sbell111 removing knives from my caches anymore then I would put them in thiers.

 

I think it was Richard Bach who came up with a better, or at least more honest Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you truly feel like doing unto others." It's not perfect, but it will refect what kind of person you are.


 

I started to just shake my head and pass this one by; but then I thought, "No, someone might actually believe this." So here goes...

 

Let's compare these two "Golden Rules" in the sphere of geocaching to see which yields a more satisfactory result.

 

First, I find cache #1 in a terrible state of disrepair. The last finder left the lid open, the interior of the cache is gooey with melted candy, and the few remaining contents are soaked and consist mainly of broken golf tees and chewed up Happy Meal toys. I'm really disgusted to find such a mess after driving 20 miles and hiking another 2 miles to get here.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" A nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of "clean it up, pack out the trash, resupply it with better stuff (if possible), and close it back up and hide it appropriately when finished; then communicate with the cache owner when you get back home." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: Because I'm so disgusted with what I've found, especially after the long drive and hike, I follow my feelings and throw this lousy, poor-excuse-for-a-cache off the nearby cliff. Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Next, I find cache #2 soon after it has been visited by a follower of the "Old" rule. It's got all kinds of neat stuff! It was well worth the long drive and hike.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" Again, a nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of, "If you're going to take something, try to leave something of equal or greater value; leave the cache and its surroundings in at least as good condition as you found them." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: "I invested some serious time and effort to get here, but it really paid off this time; I've hit the motherlode! There's so much neat stuff here, I can't decide what to take. I truly feel like taking it _all_. And my 'New Golden Rule' tells me I should do as I truly feel, so..." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Now, which "Golden Rule" do you want to see people practice at _your_ cache? icon_wink.gif

 

Worldtraveler

 

(Note: Sorry for the edits. I wanted to reword a short section and then introduced a typo.)

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 08:53 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 09:00 AM.]


 

Your number 2 scenarios say much more about YOU then they say about the rule, which is why the Bach version is more honest. If someone would really do what you say in #2, then are they perhaps the sort of person who only refrains from murder because it's illegal? Or because they are only thinking about how that person might do murder unto them?

It's unlikly that a person like that, a person who doesn't WANT to do the right thing (whatever that means to him/her), would change attitudes in the middle of the woods just because of a cliche karmic warning message, which is what the 'old' rule is. ("What goes around comes around.")

Personally, I think if you really need a rule to remind you consider other people, then perhaps a rule like "Do unto other like you really think they want to be done unto" may be a bit less judgmental.

Then, the person in your scenarios would ask "gee, do you think this cache owner would really want me to take everything....?"

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quote:
Originally posted by worldtraveler:

quote:
Originally posted by ApK:

 

The 'Real' golden rule, unfortunatly, imposes your values, beliefs and judgment on everyone else.

 

For example, I want small interesting pocketknives in my caches, sbell111 doesn't want any knives. I would not want sbell111 removing knives from my caches anymore then I would put them in thiers.

 

I think it was Richard Bach who came up with a better, or at least more honest Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you truly feel like doing unto others." It's not perfect, but it will refect what kind of person you are.


 

I started to just shake my head and pass this one by; but then I thought, "No, someone might actually believe this." So here goes...

 

Let's compare these two "Golden Rules" in the sphere of geocaching to see which yields a more satisfactory result.

 

First, I find cache #1 in a terrible state of disrepair. The last finder left the lid open, the interior of the cache is gooey with melted candy, and the few remaining contents are soaked and consist mainly of broken golf tees and chewed up Happy Meal toys. I'm really disgusted to find such a mess after driving 20 miles and hiking another 2 miles to get here.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" A nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of "clean it up, pack out the trash, resupply it with better stuff (if possible), and close it back up and hide it appropriately when finished; then communicate with the cache owner when you get back home." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: Because I'm so disgusted with what I've found, especially after the long drive and hike, I follow my feelings and throw this lousy, poor-excuse-for-a-cache off the nearby cliff. Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Next, I find cache #2 soon after it has been visited by a follower of the "Old" rule. It's got all kinds of neat stuff! It was well worth the long drive and hike.

 

"Old" rule: I ask myself, "If this were my cache and someone else found it in this condition, what would I like for them to do?" Again, a nearly universal answer, based on previous posts in this forum, would be something along the lines of, "If you're going to take something, try to leave something of equal or greater value; leave the cache and its surroundings in at least as good condition as you found them." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging smiley faces. icon_smile.gif

 

"New" rule: "I invested some serious time and effort to get here, but it really paid off this time; I've hit the motherlode! There's so much neat stuff here, I can't decide what to take. I truly feel like taking it _all_. And my 'New Golden Rule' tells me I should do as I truly feel, so..." Result? Future cache seekers will likely be logging frowny faces. icon_frown.gif

 

Now, which "Golden Rule" do you want to see people practice at _your_ cache? icon_wink.gif

 

Worldtraveler

 

(Note: Sorry for the edits. I wanted to reword a short section and then introduced a typo.)

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 08:53 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by worldtraveler on March 20, 2002 at 09:00 AM.]


 

Your number 2 scenarios say much more about YOU then they say about the rule, which is why the Bach version is more honest. If someone would really do what you say in #2, then are they perhaps the sort of person who only refrains from murder because it's illegal? Or because they are only thinking about how that person might do murder unto them?

It's unlikly that a person like that, a person who doesn't WANT to do the right thing (whatever that means to him/her), would change attitudes in the middle of the woods just because of a cliche karmic warning message, which is what the 'old' rule is. ("What goes around comes around.")

Personally, I think if you really need a rule to remind you consider other people, then perhaps a rule like "Do unto other like you really think they want to be done unto" may be a bit less judgmental.

Then, the person in your scenarios would ask "gee, do you think this cache owner would really want me to take everything....?"

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Pocket knives are indispensable tools, no doubt. But after reading these forums for several months, I have been led to believe that the most indispensable tool I could leave in a cache is a pocket dictionary. icon_eek.gif

 

This brief pause for comic relief has now concluded. We now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion of the relative merit of values as presented by the Bible and Richard Bach. "Do not attempt to control your" PC...

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on March 20, 2002 at 01:27 PM.]

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Pocket knives are indispensable tools, no doubt. But after reading these forums for several months, I have been led to believe that the most indispensable tool I could leave in a cache is a pocket dictionary. icon_eek.gif

 

This brief pause for comic relief has now concluded. We now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion of the relative merit of values as presented by the Bible and Richard Bach. "Do not attempt to control your" PC...

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on March 20, 2002 at 01:27 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

Pocket knives are indispensable tools, no doubt. But after reading these forums for several months, I have been led to believe that the most indispensable tool I could leave in a cache is a pocket dictionary. icon_eek.gif

 

This brief pause for comic relief has now concluded. We now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion of the relative merit of values as presented by the Bible and Richard Bach. "Do not attempt to control your" PC...

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on March 20, 2002 at 01:27 PM.]


 

Are you SURE you spelled "indispensable" correctly? icon_smile.gif

 

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

Pocket knives are indispensable tools, no doubt. But after reading these forums for several months, I have been led to believe that the most indispensable tool I could leave in a cache is a pocket dictionary. icon_eek.gif

 

This brief pause for comic relief has now concluded. We now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion of the relative merit of values as presented by the Bible and Richard Bach. "Do not attempt to control your" PC...

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on March 20, 2002 at 01:27 PM.]


 

Are you SURE you spelled "indispensable" correctly? icon_smile.gif

 

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

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quote:
Originally posted by ApK:

Your number 2 scenarios say much more about YOU then they say about the rule


I believe they serve to show the inferiority of Bach's "new" rule.

 

1. Rules imply the existence of a standard (right vs. wrong) and an authority (who determines what constitutes right & wrong).

 

2. The purpose of external rules is to provide guidance to do right or not do wrong for those whose "internal compass" may tend to lead them in a contrary direction.

 

3. Bach's "new" rule is either unnecessary or counterproductive. It is unnecessary for the person who is already internally motivated to do right, and it is counterproductive for the person who is internally motivated to do wrong because it tells him to go ahead and do what he wants. I think the #2 scenarios show this quite conclusively.

quote:
...the Bach version is more honest...
How is it more honest? It doesn't even take into account the reality of human nature. We are naturally inclined to look out for our own self interests. The "old" Golden Rule acknowledges the reality of self-interest ("however you want people to treat you...") while providing a guide for unselfish behavior ("...treat them in the same manner.") This is both honest and effective.

quote:
...It's unlikly that a person like that, a person who doesn't WANT to do the right thing (whatever that means to him/her), would change attitudes in the middle of the woods...

Again, the "new" rule would be counterproductive here if this person were to practice it (and s/he probably would.) And while such a person would not be inclined to practice the "old" rule, if s/he did, the result would be right behavior. So in the first case both the rule and the person are at fault. But only the person is at fault in the second case; there is nothing wrong with the rule.

quote:
...just because of a cliche karmic warning message, which is what the 'old' rule is. ("What goes around comes around.")...

Are we still talking about the Golden Rule here? It contains no threat of repercussion; it is merely a simple, profound instruction that, unlike Bach's, has stood the test of time. To denigrate it is akin to spitting into the wind, IMO. icon_wink.gif

quote:
...The 'Real' golden rule, unfortunatly, imposes your values, beliefs and judgment on everyone else...

How does the real Golden Rule impose anything? It merely instructs me to behave towards others in the same manner I would want them to behave towards me; it's not telling me to impose any values, beliefs, or judgments on them. Do I want people to behave in a manner that shows respect and common decency toward me? Then that's the way I should behave toward them. Do I want to be free from having values, beliefs, and judgments imposed on me? Then I should be careful not to impose values, beliefs, and judgments on others.

quote:
...Personally, I think if you really need a rule to remind you consider other people, then perhaps a rule like "Do unto other like you really think they want to be done unto" may be a bit less judgmental...

Now this "third" rule does appear to require me to pass judgment in that it instructs me to "judge" (correctly, if it's to be effective) how others actually want to be treated.

 

Worldtraveler

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quote:
Originally posted by ApK:

Your number 2 scenarios say much more about YOU then they say about the rule


I believe they serve to show the inferiority of Bach's "new" rule.

 

1. Rules imply the existence of a standard (right vs. wrong) and an authority (who determines what constitutes right & wrong).

 

2. The purpose of external rules is to provide guidance to do right or not do wrong for those whose "internal compass" may tend to lead them in a contrary direction.

 

3. Bach's "new" rule is either unnecessary or counterproductive. It is unnecessary for the person who is already internally motivated to do right, and it is counterproductive for the person who is internally motivated to do wrong because it tells him to go ahead and do what he wants. I think the #2 scenarios show this quite conclusively.

quote:
...the Bach version is more honest...
How is it more honest? It doesn't even take into account the reality of human nature. We are naturally inclined to look out for our own self interests. The "old" Golden Rule acknowledges the reality of self-interest ("however you want people to treat you...") while providing a guide for unselfish behavior ("...treat them in the same manner.") This is both honest and effective.

quote:
...It's unlikly that a person like that, a person who doesn't WANT to do the right thing (whatever that means to him/her), would change attitudes in the middle of the woods...

Again, the "new" rule would be counterproductive here if this person were to practice it (and s/he probably would.) And while such a person would not be inclined to practice the "old" rule, if s/he did, the result would be right behavior. So in the first case both the rule and the person are at fault. But only the person is at fault in the second case; there is nothing wrong with the rule.

quote:
...just because of a cliche karmic warning message, which is what the 'old' rule is. ("What goes around comes around.")...

Are we still talking about the Golden Rule here? It contains no threat of repercussion; it is merely a simple, profound instruction that, unlike Bach's, has stood the test of time. To denigrate it is akin to spitting into the wind, IMO. icon_wink.gif

quote:
...The 'Real' golden rule, unfortunatly, imposes your values, beliefs and judgment on everyone else...

How does the real Golden Rule impose anything? It merely instructs me to behave towards others in the same manner I would want them to behave towards me; it's not telling me to impose any values, beliefs, or judgments on them. Do I want people to behave in a manner that shows respect and common decency toward me? Then that's the way I should behave toward them. Do I want to be free from having values, beliefs, and judgments imposed on me? Then I should be careful not to impose values, beliefs, and judgments on others.

quote:
...Personally, I think if you really need a rule to remind you consider other people, then perhaps a rule like "Do unto other like you really think they want to be done unto" may be a bit less judgmental...

Now this "third" rule does appear to require me to pass judgment in that it instructs me to "judge" (correctly, if it's to be effective) how others actually want to be treated.

 

Worldtraveler

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Please excuse this interruption. I'm curious. After accidently discovering last night that topics exceeding 49 replies spill over into more pages, I started wondering how many other people aren't aware of it and never read past the first page. Posting a reply here will show you have. I would have used the "test" topic, but it's already farther down the list and has had fewer "views" (even though more replies), so I'm guessing most folks are intentionally ignoring that one.

 

Feel free to comment on the topic or just acknowledge you got to page 2.

 

It's been about 22 hours since the last reply, and there have been 1548 "views" at the time I'm posting this, so I'll watch for awhile to see how the count increases vs. the number of replies.

 

Thanks! icon_smile.gif

 

BTW, I'm guessing JamieZ will be one of the first! icon_biggrin.gif

 

Worldtraveler

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Please excuse this interruption. I'm curious. After accidently discovering last night that topics exceeding 49 replies spill over into more pages, I started wondering how many other people aren't aware of it and never read past the first page. Posting a reply here will show you have. I would have used the "test" topic, but it's already farther down the list and has had fewer "views" (even though more replies), so I'm guessing most folks are intentionally ignoring that one.

 

Feel free to comment on the topic or just acknowledge you got to page 2.

 

It's been about 22 hours since the last reply, and there have been 1548 "views" at the time I'm posting this, so I'll watch for awhile to see how the count increases vs. the number of replies.

 

Thanks! icon_smile.gif

 

BTW, I'm guessing JamieZ will be one of the first! icon_biggrin.gif

 

Worldtraveler

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Hey Worldtraveler & ApK,

when I posted my golden rule statements, I wasn't intending to start such a heated discussion. Although I have enjoyed reading your banter. The point I was trying to make, was that I would hope that someone would be kind enough to fix any problems that they found in my caches, just as I would make an effort to repair any damaged caches that I come across.

 

BTW, I am inclined to agree with worldtraveler, and IMO Bach's "New" rule sounds a tad anti-social.

 

Lost? I'm not lost. At least I don't think I'm lost, well............OK, maybe just a little.

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quote:
Originally posted by Misguided One:

Hey Worldtraveler & ApK,

when I posted my golden rule statements, I wasn't intending to start such a heated discussion.


 

That's ok, this is more fun.

 

quote:

BTW, I am inclined to agree with worldtraveler, and IMO Bach's "New" rule sounds a tad anti-social.


I Understand from WT's last reply to me where this perspective is coming from, and from that perspective, I must agree. Particularly for teaching children, who have not yet developed an 'internal compass.'

 

HOWEVER, I maintain that Bach's rule is more honest, in that asking someone to introspect and consider thier actions is all that any rule of behavior can hope to do for someone that does have thier values established.

 

ON THE THIRD HAND, I think I like MY rule ("#3") better for a general guidline of consiering other people. There is a difference between 'being judgmental' and 'using good judgment.'

The old rule implies that 'your' belief system is best and that everyone else will agree that how you want to be treated is the 'right' way to be treated.

I disagree. If a pacifist was being mugged and really wanted to turn the other cheek, would they want a hero coming to thier rescue to 'protect' them?

My version only requires you to give thought to what the other person would want. We can't really know, but we can use what info we have to make a more open minded decision.

My knife example illustrates this.

 

Thanks for the argument fodder! icon_smile.gif

 

ApK

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quote:
Originally posted by Misguided One:

Hey Worldtraveler & ApK,

when I posted my golden rule statements, I wasn't intending to start such a heated discussion.


 

That's ok, this is more fun.

 

quote:

BTW, I am inclined to agree with worldtraveler, and IMO Bach's "New" rule sounds a tad anti-social.


I Understand from WT's last reply to me where this perspective is coming from, and from that perspective, I must agree. Particularly for teaching children, who have not yet developed an 'internal compass.'

 

HOWEVER, I maintain that Bach's rule is more honest, in that asking someone to introspect and consider thier actions is all that any rule of behavior can hope to do for someone that does have thier values established.

 

ON THE THIRD HAND, I think I like MY rule ("#3") better for a general guidline of consiering other people. There is a difference between 'being judgmental' and 'using good judgment.'

The old rule implies that 'your' belief system is best and that everyone else will agree that how you want to be treated is the 'right' way to be treated.

I disagree. If a pacifist was being mugged and really wanted to turn the other cheek, would they want a hero coming to thier rescue to 'protect' them?

My version only requires you to give thought to what the other person would want. We can't really know, but we can use what info we have to make a more open minded decision.

My knife example illustrates this.

 

Thanks for the argument fodder! icon_smile.gif

 

ApK

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

We now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion of the relative merit of values as presented by the Bible and Richard Bach. "Do not attempt to control your" PC...


 

Look for cage match on pay-per-view, coming soon.

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quote:
Originally posted by Misguided One:

Hey Worldtraveler & ApK,

when I posted my golden rule statements, I wasn't intending to start such a heated discussion...


 

Hey ApK & Misguided One,

 

I've enjoyed the discussion and haven't really considered it heated - just very opinionated, at least on my part! icon_biggrin.gif

 

I'll be out of touch for a few days, so please don't take my absence from this forum as an indication that I've lost interest on am mad. I've got to go "down under" for a business trip to Sydney. I'm taking a few travel bugs and hope to find some caches while there.

 

You guys take care.

 

(Edited for typos . I shur mis spelchek!)

Worldtraveler

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quote:
Originally posted by Misguided One:

Hey Worldtraveler & ApK,

when I posted my golden rule statements, I wasn't intending to start such a heated discussion...


 

Hey ApK & Misguided One,

 

I've enjoyed the discussion and haven't really considered it heated - just very opinionated, at least on my part! icon_biggrin.gif

 

I'll be out of touch for a few days, so please don't take my absence from this forum as an indication that I've lost interest on am mad. I've got to go "down under" for a business trip to Sydney. I'm taking a few travel bugs and hope to find some caches while there.

 

You guys take care.

 

(Edited for typos . I shur mis spelchek!)

Worldtraveler

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I agree with you that knives are valuable tools. We all own and use several. I simply believe that they are inappropriate for caches.

 

The fact is many caches are hidden in parks. In many parts of the country, governments are using prison details to maintain parks. We wish to maintain good working relationships with these various governmental agencies. Keeping extraneous knives out of the hands of inmates helps in this endeavor. Therefore, we are better off without knives in caches.

 

You also must consider the hypothetical thirteen year old that will find our caches during his non-geocaching pursuit of adventure. By leaving knives in our caches, we are providing them for the child. We do not have the authority to take this decision out of the hands of his parents.

 

Also, I did not impose judgement on any caches except those that I have placed. This, as I understand it, is well within my rights and responsibilities.

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quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

I simply believe that they are inappropriate for caches.


I understand completely, and I disagree.

 

quote:

Also, I did not impose judgement on any caches except those that I have placed. This, as I understand it, is well within my rights and responsibilities.


I understand completely, and I agree.

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The truth is, VERY MANY people are now into geocaching. This is a great thing, with several consequences. One is that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

Some think knives are very much a no-no. Others consider knives one heck of a good booty. Some geocachers go with their dogs. Others consider dog biscuits bad since they attract unwanted animals to the cache. Etc etc etc.

 

We have grown to be a large community and a bit of understanding and leniency may be in order all around.

 

Now, as far as actual TRASH, well of course, nobody wants an empty beer can in their cache! icon_smile.gif

 

I do think about the inadvertent geocacher, though: the one who is out in that area for whatever reason, finds the cache, and did not come prepared to trade. Maybe all they had in their wallet that they could part with was that used concert ticket? At least they didn't plunder the cache entirely? (Or, maybe I should just take off my rose-colored glasses?) icon_cool.gif

 

Maybe I should just go to bed! icon_rolleyes.gif It's 11pm here and it'll be Monday soon.....

 

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dartfrogsmall.jpg Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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The truth is, VERY MANY people are now into geocaching. This is a great thing, with several consequences. One is that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

Some think knives are very much a no-no. Others consider knives one heck of a good booty. Some geocachers go with their dogs. Others consider dog biscuits bad since they attract unwanted animals to the cache. Etc etc etc.

 

We have grown to be a large community and a bit of understanding and leniency may be in order all around.

 

Now, as far as actual TRASH, well of course, nobody wants an empty beer can in their cache! icon_smile.gif

 

I do think about the inadvertent geocacher, though: the one who is out in that area for whatever reason, finds the cache, and did not come prepared to trade. Maybe all they had in their wallet that they could part with was that used concert ticket? At least they didn't plunder the cache entirely? (Or, maybe I should just take off my rose-colored glasses?) icon_cool.gif

 

Maybe I should just go to bed! icon_rolleyes.gif It's 11pm here and it'll be Monday soon.....

 

-----

dartfrogsmall.jpg Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

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Originally posted by MissJenn:

 

 

Some think knives are very much a no-no. Others consider knives one heck of a good booty. Some geocachers go with their dogs. Others consider dog biscuits bad since they attract unwanted animals to the cache. Etc etc etc.

 

We have grown to be a large community and a bit of understanding and leniency may be in order all around.

 

QUOTE]

 

Miss Jenn....considering how twisted I think your profile seems....this exhibits some suprising wisdom. The point of this thread was to get cachers to consider others. The Golden Rule is golden for very good reasons. icon_cool.gif

 

11902_900.gif

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Originally posted by MissJenn:

 

 

Some think knives are very much a no-no. Others consider knives one heck of a good booty. Some geocachers go with their dogs. Others consider dog biscuits bad since they attract unwanted animals to the cache. Etc etc etc.

 

We have grown to be a large community and a bit of understanding and leniency may be in order all around.

 

QUOTE]

 

Miss Jenn....considering how twisted I think your profile seems....this exhibits some suprising wisdom. The point of this thread was to get cachers to consider others. The Golden Rule is golden for very good reasons. icon_cool.gif

 

11902_900.gif

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Im new at this and of course just finding the cache is exciting for me, however, i really have been disappointed in some of the "trash" that ive come across in a couple of the caches ive found. Its not that i must trade something from every cache that i find, but that it really shows me how insensitive and just plain ole sorry people can be. Its simple, if you go out caching and figure on doing some trading, take decent items with you to leave behind. Personally i love it when i find a one of a kind item, not expensive or anything but maybe something unigue or homemade. (a tied fly by Rut would be so cool)!

 

frog_and_chicken.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by ApK:

 

...Seriously, though, it's sad. I see dozens of smokers every day, and I've never seen one use an ashtray. Even if they're walking by one, I only ever see them litter. ...

 


I also hate to see smokers flick the butts out their car window. If I were the police, I'd take pleasure handing out tickets for littering.

 

It is very sad that many smokers don't realize that the filter is one of the worst forms of litter. It will last for years before decomposing. I learned this from one of the rare smokers that cares for the enviroment. I watched him take apart a butt and carefully pack out the filter!

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Personally, I MUCH prefer the rural/hiking/mountain type caches to urban caches. When I drive out to the country and hike for a couple of miles, I expect to find decent stuff in the cache. I bring good stuff with me to trade. Knives are great in these type of caches. The chance of kids finding the cache at all is fairly minimal. The chance of kids finding the cache alone is almost nill. Urban caches are still enjoyable, and they are hard to turn down when there are a few available in your area. In these caches, knives are not appropriate. I expect junk in these, and that's what I find 80% of the time. I also think that alot of the "take nothing/left nothing finders" don't fess up to their trades/tradedowns.

 

One last note - If you take a travel bug and leave nothing, it definitely degrades the cache. Often when people leave a bug they will grab something.

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quote:
Originally posted by Quackerbacker:

 

One last note - If you take a travel bug and leave nothing, it definitely degrades the cache. Often when people leave a bug they will grab something.


 

I suppose you're right. But how come we only discuss enrichening or degrading caches ... what's wrong with maintaining the status quo?

 

I often leave Travel Bugs at caches I like that don't receive frequent visitors as a way to entice others to visit that site. I've found the Travel Bugs are a good draw.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

 

I often leave Travel Bugs at caches I like that don't receive frequent visitors as a way to entice others to visit that site. I've found the Travel Bugs are a good draw.


Is it fair to use someone else's travel bug as "bait"? I try to leave travel bugs in caches that tend to get a decent amount of activity...in hopes of giving the TB a better chance of continuing to move, rather than sitting stagnant in an unpopular cache.

 

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"I may be slow, but at least I'm sweet!" 196939_800.jpg

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