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Rite In The Rain vs regular paper


Mopar
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In the whole time I've been geocaching, rite in the rain paper has been touted as an expensive, but vastly superior alternative to regular paper for caches. Now, after seeing the recent pictures posted from the elusive Teddy Roosevelt cache, I'm not so sure. This hard to find micro cache had a moisture problem noted in the logs back in March, 2001. Since the original paper logs were damp, the finder added a new log sheet made of Rite in the Rain paper. The cache was found once more 2 months later, then has had a string of DNFs for the last 8 months. Now it was recently found, open and encased in a tomb of ice. After everything was dried out and dissected, you can see from the pics that the plain paper log actually held up alot better then the rite in the rain log did.

Any other "real world" tests comparing the two?

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Interesting. Rite in the Rain is paper with a coating so that you can literally do what the name indicates. Looks like "Survive being submerged and wet for months" is an entirly different story.

 

I've had my address book run through a washing machine. For some reason I always had a preference for pencil over pen. The book didn't survive but most of the sheets did. After being dried out I got most all of my addresses and put them in a new book. Pencil holds up well to water exposure. It doesn't run and it doesn't freeze at 40 below and not write.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the intent of RIR paper to allow a person to write on while damp? I'm doubtful that they intended for the paper to be stored wet for extended periods and still be legible. There is another active thread where someone was complaining their Garmin wasn't as waterproof as they expected it to be. Garmin's intent was that it would work after getting wet, and being dried out, not that you could use it for underwater navigation.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the _intent_ of RIR paper to allow a person to write on while damp? I'm doubtful that they intended for the paper to be stored wet for extended periods and still be legible. There is another active thread where someone was complaining their Garmin wasn't as waterproof as they expected it to be. Garmin's _intent_ was that it would work after getting wet, and being dried out, not that you could use it for underwater navigation.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

I'm guessing you are correct. I search all over www.riteintherain.com, and only found one rather vague claim that the standard RIR paper is waterproof. Pretty much the only claim they openly make is that you can write on it in all types of weather. While they publish testimonials about how people have recovered RIR notebooks after floating for days in the ocean, the company itself makes no claim for the product. They do offer a different product, called "DuraRite" I think, that they do claim is waterproof.

Which gets back to my original post. There has been lots of discussion about how to use the rite in the rain paper in geocaches. The stuff costs like $1 a sheet, does it really last any longer if a cache gets wet, or does it only do as claimed, which is allow you to write on it in the rain (then presumably dry it out ASAP)?

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave54:

quote:

The stuff costs like $1 a sheet


 

Where do you shop?

 

The 50 page pocket notebooks run around $5-6, depending on which type you buy. They are even cheaper by the carton.


OK, my mistake. It's the National Geographic Adventure paper thats almost $1 a sheet, but RIR still isn't cheap, and it seems that unless you just keep buying the $10 sample packs, you have to lay out $40 a ream. Any way you look at that, it's ALOT more expensive then standard paper. Besides, not here to argue the cost of it. How suitable is it REALLY for geocaching? The pictures I link to in my 1st post seem to show that with long term exposure to water (like in a cache that leaks and fills up with water) it doesn't hold up as well as normal paper. In most caches Ive seen, if there is a problem, it's long term moisture, not the rare times the cache was found during a rainstorm.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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quote:
Originally posted by Prime Suspect:

I have to disagree. The writing on the RITR paper is still readable, while the regular paper didn't fare quite as well. That's what RITR is supposed to do - it doesn't advertize itself as being indestructible.


The writing on whats left of the paper is legible, yes. The problem is, there isn't much left to it! just so everyone's on the same page here:

quote:
Original plain paper log

945498_300.jpg


quote:
replacement Rite In The Rain log

945498_400.jpg


If I'm recovering a log from a damaged cache, I would think "mostly intact, but somewhat faded" is better then "mostly disintergrated, but whats left is clear".

I don't think they are falsely advertising what RitR paper does and doesn't do, I think maybe we, as geocachers are. No, the stuff clearly is not indestructable, but it also might not be even as durable as plain paper in a wet cache. And isn't that why most of us use it? So we don't lose the log (the most valuable part of the cache) if the cache gets wet?

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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I found a cache completely full of water, and the Rite-in-the-Rain log book in an open ziplock bag, with about 1/2 inch of water at the bottom when held vertical. The log book had been soaking in the water for as long as the cache had been hosed (somewhere between a week and a month, although judging by the muddy sediment, closer to a month), and it was completely legible and signable after being wiped off. The moisture didn't penetrate very far between the pages, except the first and last pages, and the little bit that did wiped off easily. Other papers in the cache, including some cache printouts, had turned to mush. I was impressed. Might even buy one.

 

--

"I saw two shooting stars last night,

I wished on them--but they were only satellites!

Is it wrong to wish on space hardware?

I wish, I wish, I wished you cared."

--Billy Bragg, "A New England"

 

[This message was edited by Team Shredded Bark (formerly JCR) on January 29, 2003 at 10:19 AM.]

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Rite in the Rain is really a misnomer,its more like write in the damp. It hold up much better than standard 24# paper in damp conditions but real rain soaks into it making it useless. It will remain in one piece but you will not be able to write on it ledgibly. In fact pencil lead will hardly mark it in this soft state. Erasing just makes a mess.

 

There are other much better products on the market, but since I am supplied them by my employers I can not remember the brands. Basically these are sheets of plastic that work just like paper, photo copy well, and can be used under water. They are much more expensive. They also shrink if heat is applied, kind of like shrink wrap and the writing will still be ledgible just smaller.

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quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

I was reading an issue of Backpacker magazine while waiting for some tires to be put on and I saw this stuff mentioned?

http://www.igage.com/WeatherP.htm

 

Has anyone tried this?


That stuff looks awesome, I'll have to buy a pack and give it a try. Thanks for the link!

 

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

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I only use Rite in Rain log books for my caches.

 

The main reason isnt that I fear them getting a little dadgum from the rain or what ever ( I use Ammo cans ) but in the summer I know I unfortunatly messed up some logs books because I sweat like a whore in church ( as my dad likes to say ). Just teh water dripping off me from a light hike is impressive and will soak a paper book in the brief time I try to write in it let along what rolls off my face as I write.

 

The incodental water damage from writing in a rain ect. So far 2 books and I know they have both gotten dadgum during long runs of rainy weather, ad as of a week or so ago they are both fine and dandy.

 

I have a few still here at the shop, maybe I'll take my extra decon can and put a sheet of RiR and 24# paper and 1 cup of water and see what happens.

 

-Robert

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iGage paper looks cool, only thing...

 

quote:
It is not possible to write on this Weatherproof Paper with a pencil.

 

However, it's more versatile and significantly cheaper than National Geographic Adventure paper.

 

I have samples on the way and am now a dealer for their products. Their All Topo Map products are really cool, too.

 

It looks like the paper will work extremely well for the bound Microcache logbooks! Since I still have a ream of Rite in the Rain paper, we'll see which ones fare better. Unfortunately, the paper isn't available in ream quantities yet, so they'll be a little more expensive for the time being.

 

If it will survive boiling water, it should survive just about anything.

 

freshtracksmaps.com sells the iGage 8.5x11 for $30 per pack of 50. The cheapest price I found elsewhere is $18.

 

So, if you don't mind waiting a little bit, you can get some of the first order for $15 per pack (+ shipping). Just let me know.

 

[This message was edited by CreagerStone Family on January 29, 2003 at 08:39 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by CreagerStone Family:

iGage paper looks cool, but...

 

quote:
It is not possible to write on this Weatherproof Paper with a pencil.

This is the same with NG Adventure Paper (from my experience). I don't really consider this a problem, as I always carry a space pen with me. And if I use this paper as a log sheet, I would clearly state in the cache description "use a pen, not a pencil".

 

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

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you can write on RIR paper when wet with a #7 or #9 pencil, available at drafting or artist supply stores. I believe RIR sells pencils and pens on their website, but local suppliers are probably cheaper.

 

========================================

Friends don't let Friends geocache drunk.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave54:

you can write on RIR paper when wet with a #7 or #9 pencil, available at drafting or artist supply stores. I believe RIR sells pencils and pens on their website, but local suppliers are probably cheaper.


We weren't talking about RIR paper (with respect to writing on them with pencils). We're talking about the iGage and NG Adventure paper, and how pencils don't work on them (wet or dry).

 

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

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Mopar, What have you done!

 

LOL, I was the finder of the afore mentioned cache that had been missing in the swamp for 8 months. I was surpirsed to find this thread that got started. I dont know for a fact that the greenish sheet was RITR other than the loggers on line log and the last line on the green sheet which says "This is Rite in the rain paper!" It is hard to say what happened for those 8 months in the swamp. The RITR paper was more fragile and much harder to recover. Then again I dont really know what the original log sheet was that is the compared to item. It may have been as thick as card stock when it started which might give it the edge for survival.

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quote:
Originally posted by mr.magoo:

Then again I dont really know what the original log sheet was that is the compared to item. It may have been as thick as card stock when it started which might give it the edge for survival.


Well, I found that one 3 weeks after it was placed (and a week after bassoonpilot, grumblegrumblegrumble). If I remember correct, it was just a plain sheet of printer paper.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Hi folks,

We use TYVEC brand paper for making label to put on cubes of concrete blocks that we make. We print them on a standard ink jet printer,with standard BLACK ink - the colored ink will not stand up to the weather. These tags still look ok after two years on the lot... not that we like to see them stay there that long, but.....

If anyone wants to get some, try contacting DuPont, if you are nice, they will send you a ream as a sample, just think up some kind of special project, or say that you want to test TYVEC for this or that. The first test lot I got was going to be used to cover model air plane wings !!! BTW... TYVEC = FEDEX letter bags icon_rolleyes.gif

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It may be pricey, but Dura Lite (from write in the rain corp.) is sort of like a plastic paper that holds up under wet weather. I have used this to write data on in 8+ hours of rain while out in the woods. There can be a puddle of water on the paper and you can still write on it under the water. It is also tear resistant and comes in various notebook sizes. After a few hours in the pouring rain even write in the rain becomes un-writable...but dura lite works good. (though if you have lots of pages they tend to stick together when wet)

-UA

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I spend most of my time in the outdoors working in the environmental field. The RIR paper is the best however it is not perfect, you cant write on it wet because most pens do not work wet. If you can get a Space pen and it will write on it under water. the Company also make laser printable paper that you can make you own forms with. I get most of mine through Forestry Suppliers, in Jackson Mississippi, 1-500-647-5368

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I spend most of my time in the outdoors working in the environmental field. The RIR paper is the best however it is not perfect, you cant write on it wet because most pens do not work wet. If you can get a Space pen it will write on it under water. the Company also make laser printable paper that you can make you own forms with. I get most of mine through Forestry Suppliers, in Jackson Mississippi, 1-800-647-5368

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I thought I'd posted to this topic with this information, but it must have been another topic that was active at the same time. Anyway, I have more data, so I'm posting again:

 

Rippedsheets.com sells various interesting inkjet-printable products that I haven't seen anywhere else. Among those is one they call Waterproof Film 10 pt.. I wrote to them and asked them to send me some samples of that and some of their other waterproof stuff, and I received my samples today. Before I get started, I want to stress that I've never done business with these folks and I definitely have no financial interest in them. Here's what they sent me:

 

#101700 Bright White Matte Paper (Permanent Self-Adhesive)

This isn't waterproof, and it doesn't claim to be. Needless to say, the ink ran and the paper curled after just a few seconds in a glass of water.

 

#104200 Waterproof Bright White Matte (Self-Adhesive)

The ink seems to have run just a tiny bit on this after a minute underwater, but not enough to affect the legibility. The black ink stayed crisp and clear; it was just the red ink that ran and only a little. The paper itself seems to retain moisture for a while, though, and it looks like it could curl if you look at it funny. For the price, you're better off spending a little more money to get...

 

#104000 Waterproof Matte White Vinyl (Permanent Self Adhesive)

This stuff came out of the water as flat and sharp as it went in. The ink didn't run, the label didn't curl (of course not!) and it doesn't tear; if you try to tear it it stretches instead.

 

#100771 Waterproof Film 10 pt.

This is the stuff I originally wanted a sample of, to see how it would do for microcache log sheets. I'll probably buy some of this stuff. It's a little thinner than business-card stock but a lot more flexible, the ink stays crisp and clear underwater, the material itself doesn't absorb water, and it doesn't tear (it also stretches.) I was able to write on it with a ballpoint pen, a felt-tip pen, and a pencil (though the pencil came out a little on the light side, so you might want to include a softer #4B pencil instead of a standard #2 if you're putting it in your own cache.) When I submerged it, the felt-tip ink bled just a little, but not too badly. When I wiped my finger across the fresh ink, though, the felt-tip ink smeared as it would on a glossy surface (this stuff has a matte surface, though.) All in all, this stuff looks perfect for log sheets or even - with some contact cement - as a label for the outside of your cache box.

 

#103450 Clear Static Cling

I got this one just to see whether it'd be useful for signature items of some kind. It's a little thinner than commercial static-cling film, but still thick enough that it won't stretch accidentally. One thing you'll notice immediately is that your inkjet inks are transparent, so what looks good on a piece of white paper might not look quite so good on this stuff. They also have white static cling film for the same price, but I didn't get them to send me any of that. I didn't test the water-resistance of this stuff, but it's probably similar to the vinyl.

 

[Edit: at the suggestion of a fellow chat denizen I've put the waterproof film and the vinyl label in a jar of water to sit for a week. Hopefully I'll remember to check on that in a week and let y'all know how it turned out.]

 

warm.gif

 

[This message was edited by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy on February 13, 2003 at 11:21 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

At the suggestion of a fellow http://gcchat.clayjar.com I've put the waterproof film and the vinyl label in a jar of water to sit for a week. Hopefully I'll remember to check on that in a week and let y'all know how it turned out.


 

Well, as of right now, after a day of being submerged, it looks like the yellow ink has bled a bit more than the red or the blue (which are pretty stable.) The felt-tip ink has bled through the film, but is still quite legible. The black ink is still as sharp as ever.

 

Of course, after the dunk test, they get the sunlight test. How will they stand up to being put in the window for a week? Stay tuned....

 

warm.gif

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I've been using the 8511 paper for 2+ years now in my caches and when I replace logs for other Geocachers. In Florida, with all the rain in the summer the paper makes a big difference. It still gets wets but maintains its strength and signability for a long time. The names signed in pen may get blurry but the logs stays strong. For me, it was worth spending a few dollars for this paper.

4d02b3e1-a2b1-4da6-9bad-6724216fde5b.jpg

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