Is this guy out of line?

3.9k · October 20, 2003

Here is his post to a cache. I found this cache and it was in a great location, with nice trade items. Overall a great cache. This guy flipped out about ticks. Like he didn't know there was a possabilty of getting ticks in long grass

Here's his log:

WARNING, This site is dangerous, and WRR keeps deleting my post warning you all:

Hey all be warned, this really isn't cool.

It turns out that WRR planted this cache in the middle of a tick infested area, very funny. Deer ticks, as it turns out, are so small you really can't see them with the naked eye, until they've been attached for a few and swell up really big. How do I know?

My 9 year old daughter was in screaming pain, running a 103 degree temperature, turns out she contracted lyme disease from a deer tick she must have picked up in the tall grass on the beach.

very funny WRR.

I contacted the manor to find out more from the kind gentleman that has been described by some of us as the "nosy grounds keeper"

1. It turns out that the manor/museum is private property and they have NOT given permission for the cache to be stored there, in violation of geocaching rules.

2. The museum is over 400 years old and is both historically significant and fragile. The place is a national treasure, and it turns out that people with gps's have been crawliing all over sensitive and fragile areas.

3. The beach where the cache is is infested with deer ticks that carry lyme disease and

4. It is a federally protected wetland area, which makes walking on and around it a federal crime (which the signs there speak to).

5 If you think their rabbits are big, you should see the german shepards and rottweliers the grounds keeper now turns loose.

i'm going to report this ti geocaching, this cache and site should not be here, it violates the spirit of what we're about and the law.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

[This message was edited by J&MBella on October 20, 2003 at 07:50 PM.]

24.7k · October 20, 2003

Another area protected for all so none may enjoy.

The guy is out of line and knows enough to be dangerouse. We deal with wetlands, protect wetlands, rip up wetlands, and make even more wetlands than we rip up. "No Tresspassing signs" are not part of the deal. Some of what we have done we *gasp* let people fish in. The signs may have been put there by the owner (which is ok) but they really don't havea federal reason t obe there.

This guy is off base but probably has a seed of truth buried in the archive this cache rant.

Unfortunally the only way to deal with the cache is to investigate it directly. A knee jerk archive is no more productive than the guys rant.

7.2k · October 20, 2003

The ticks question does not bother me.

The potential private property issues do though.

Did you ask for permission?

mtn-man... admin brick mason

"approver of all trades" -- per Woodsters Outdoors

3.9k · October 20, 2003

quote:
The potential private property issues do though.
Did you ask for permission?

It's not my cache but I've found it and I know the owner well. He apparently didn't ask permission. But it was very unclear to anyone that this was private property as it IS open to the public for walking the grounds and tours of the manor. There are even sign at the entrance that tells you the hours of operation. And I didn't see any No Trespassing signs anywhere and no signs that said federally protected property when I was there.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

1.3k · October 20, 2003

Can a location be both private property and a federally protected wetland?

---Stats banner used to be here.---

3.9k · October 20, 2003

Good point. I don't really know. But in this case the're are no signs to that effect. There are also no signs that say private property.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

October 20, 2003

So why did the owner continually delete his warning post to others.

I hate it when cache owners do that. He could have left the warning there and let others decide if they wanted to risk the ticks or not.

--RuffRidr

"The first condition of progress is the removal of censorship."

--George Bernard Shaw

October 20, 2003

quote:
Can a location be both private property and a federally protected wetland?

Yes. However, walking on it is not a federal crime. Building on it w/o permission might be.

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

3.9k · October 20, 2003

The warning was so extreme and unwarrented that it probably would have stopped people from visiting the cache. Which would be a shame since it was really was a nice find. I don't need a warning about ticks, I just assume, like most of us, that when I go in the woods or long grass that there are going to be ticks. It's my responsabilty to protect myself, my dog, my niece and nephew when there are with me, from the eliments. The rest of the so called 'warning' was completely eroneus and should have been deleted. I would have done the same thing. What would you do if someone posted a complete lie about a pitbull that attacks people near the cache. This guy made it seem like WRR purposely hid the cache in the grass as a prank so people would get lymes disease and get attacked by dogs.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

October 20, 2003

Never assume.

It bothers me about his daughter and I hope she gets better. I'll bet the owner of the cache didn't intentionally set it in a tick infested area, but knowing that, might consider a relocation. It couldn't be that difficult to do.

The owner shouldn't have deleted the warnings, bad juju there.

I think he might post a warning of his own on the cache page, again, easy enough to do.

Pride goeth before a fall..

All advertised discounts apply to final purchase price...

October 20, 2003

I agree that I don't need a warning about ticks or anything else you might normally encounter in the woods and I also think premission should have been obtained just like we get in most parks. I guess my biggest beef is addressing this on the cache page vs. private email. New cachers won't want to read your ranting post with bad language in a log. I agree with your points, however I think you should have handled this differently.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Scoobie

A day without sunshine is like.....NIGHT!

4.8k · October 20, 2003

The tick infestation rant doesn't bother me. We have several caches in tick infested areas. It's a bit like musquitos; be prepared. Lymes disease is nation wide now. Get a tick bite, assume the worst and be prepared to deal with the disease. I feel for the little girl, although I'm skeptical about the rapid onset infered by the post.

Private property is private property. The cache owner should either go ask permission of pull the cache (as unfortunate as that is).

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

2.1k · October 20, 2003

I think MarcusS is overreacting a bit although Lyme disease can be pretty scary initially (symptoms are very MS-like).

But Bella, no offense, but I think you overreacted too. Using ASCII cursing (a$$/sh!t) and general ranting equally as obnoxious as Marcus' is not really helpful (especially in a cache log instead of an e-mail).

Also, don't assume that someone logged in for only a day isn't "one of us/part of a 'we'"...the socks are everywhere...and I can see someone wanting to use a sock puppet to leave a note like that.

Finally, as to the cache itself, since I don't know the area, I can't comment, but if it truly is privately owned and the owner now having been contacted doesn't want the cache present, then unfortunately, it may have to be moved a bit further down the beach to outside of their range..but still close enough to the manor to make it easy for people to go between the two and get the history along with the game.

Just my 0.0171734 Euros.

--

http://magazine.audubon.org/features0101/goodwood.html

2.1k · October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by J&MBella:
He apparently didn't ask permission. But it was very unclear to anyone that this was private property as it IS open to the public for walking the grounds and tours of the manor. There are even sign at the entrance that tells you the hours of operation.

But isn't permission still supposed to be asked and received? I know there are some "public" places around here that encourage hiking, but they will and do deny a cache placement. Just because it is public doesn't mean you can just place a cache there.

Brian

www.woodsters.com

My Stats

Found: 70

Hidden: 2

2.5k · October 20, 2003

I blame the administration. The cache owner requested archival a couple of days before the said incident. This might not have happened if it was archived promptly.

All kidding aside, Lyme disease sounds like nasty stuff, but blaming the hider is a bit extreme.

What are ticks doing on the beach anyway? If I'm not mistaken, the whole east coast has pretty much been on tick alert for a couple of years now.

October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:
What are ticks doing on the beach anyway?

Sand dunes are prime deer tick area. I've seen many a deer tick/lyme disease warning sign in the dunes of Massachusetts.

Pan

Fact is that there is nothing out there you can't do,

Yeah, even Santa Claus believes in you...

Floyd of Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem, from "Can You Picture That?"

1.3k · October 20, 2003

Is MarcusS the same as Sydwinder or are they different people? Just wondering because they both refer to their 9 year old daughters.

I didn't notice any ticks the two times I was there. If the groundskeeper objects to geocaching, however, the cache owner needs to clear it with the property manager. No argument from me there.

38.2k · October 20, 2003

The tick thing was ridiculious. The issue of placing the cache on private property is a different story.

One issue though...the topo maps show this cache to be on the beach. If this riparian land, it is not private property.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

7.2k · October 20, 2003

Thanks for the clarification about the ownership of the cache. It is sad that the property owner's recourse would be to ignore leash laws and potentially endanger the public. I wonder if that is a fabrication. Maybe the cache owner can strike an agreement with the owners and can get permission to have the cache there.

mtn-man... admin brick mason

"approver of all trades" -- per Woodsters Outdoors

October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
The tick thing was ridiculious. .....

The "Lyme Disease" sounds like BS to me. Just sounds like one of those high-strung types that read an article about it and now sees it everywhere and thinks ALL ticks carry it, etc....

[This message was edited by SamLowrey on October 20, 2003 at 01:52 PM.]

7.2k · October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:
I blame the administration. The cache owner requested archival a couple of days before the said incident. This might not have happened if it was archived promptly.

Actually, the cache is archived. It was archived by the cache owner on October 18th, I presume the day after the archive note was entered and deleted by the cache owner. The administration could not do any more to the cache at that point. MarcusS just needs to move on.

mtn-man... admin brick mason

"approver of all trades" -- per Woodsters Outdoors

2.1k · October 20, 2003

Was just reading their latest entry on the cache page and it sparked a question. They posted the rules on private/public land. Private land says get permission. Public land says to check on their rules. So in otherwords if they do not have any rules with geocaching in it, are you supposed to ask or don't worry about it and just place it until otherwise? Also how do you determine as to what is public or not? Of course I know specifically what private land is or what would be considered private, but there are some places that are open to the public, but are owned by trusts and etc. Is public, considered something owned by the governments (fed, state, county, city)?

Brian

www.woodsters.com

My Stats

Found: 70

Hidden: 2

2.5k · October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
Public land says to check on their rules. So in otherwords if they do not have any rules with geocaching in it, are you supposed to ask or don't worry about it and just place it until otherwise?

What rule are you breaking and who would you ask?

2.1k · October 20, 2003

Before this goes onto a public/private land discussion...I just wanted to note something from the cache page:

quote:
The Estate is open from May 1st-October 30. and from, 9AM till 5PM Closed Monday and Tuesday.

I will temporarily disable this cache on or about Oct. 26th, and plan on activating it again on May 1st next year.

Is this archival permanent or did the cache hider not understand the temporary disabling system? IOW, is this going to spring up in May and rear its ugly head again or not?

--

http://magazine.audubon.org/features0101/goodwood.html

October 20, 2003

Lyme disease, west nile., poison ivy! oh my! I say all caches should be indoors or on asphalt to aviod all contact will wild animals or plantlife. If you see someone in a yellow procetive suit in the woods it just may be a fellow cacher.

October 20, 2003

quote:
Private land says get permission. Public land says to check on their rules.

I'm not sure where the "official" rules are codified, but on the "Hide & Seek A Cache" page (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/), it says:

"Please make sure to obtain permission from the landowner or land manager and read the guidelines for reporting a cache prior to placing your geocache."

I can't think of any place (at least in the United States), that isn't managed or owned by somebody, so to me this essentially says you always have to get permission before placing a cache.

George

2.1k · October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
I can't think of any place (at least in the United States), that isn't managed or owned by somebody, so to me this essentially says you always have to get permission before placing a cache.

George

Thanks George, those have been my sentiments all along. But, the quoted rules brought up the question. It's worded that it can be interpreted in different ways. one just as you stated and the other like what cachew nut said. I know I've heard before to not ask and if there's a problem later then you remove it. I personally don't go for that idea myself. I have 2 caches that I've hidden. Both are in city parks and I've gotten direct permission from the parks director that I can place caches in the parks in that town.

Brian

www.woodsters.com

My Stats

Found: 70

Hidden: 2

38.2k · October 20, 2003

quote:
So in otherwords if they do not have any rules with geocaching in it, are you supposed to ask or don't worry about it and just place it until otherwise?

If its public land and geocaching is not against the law, or there are no regulations regarding the sport, then why ask permission? Do hunters ask permission to erect tree stands? Must you ask the park authorities if it's OK to play Frisbee, or walk your dog? Are hunters and nature photographers banned from venturing off trail? Usually no.

quote:
Also how do you determine as to what is public or not?

Most public areas are on maps. When in doubt, check your local tax maps.

quote:
There are some places that are open to the public, but are owned by trusts and etc. Is public, considered something owned by the governments (fed, state, county, city)?

Public trust lands are privately owned. The Nature Conservacy, Audobon Society and many other groups own land that is open to the public. In these cases, ask permission. Some invite and encourage geocaching and others won't hear of it.

I placed several caches on one conservacy's land before the issue of permission was a gleam in Jeremy's eyes. As it turns out, conservacy employees found out about the caches and have never taken action against them. In fact, they've been known to help geocachers who were looking for them. This to me is tacit approval.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

3.9k · October 20, 2003

OK. Maybe I got a little out of hand. And it's probably none of my business anyway. I've got that good old fashion Italian temper. I did edit my note significantly on the cache page now that I cooled off.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

24.7k · October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
...I can't think of any place (at least in the United States), that isn't managed or owned by somebody, so to me this essentially says you always have to get permission before placing a cache.

George

Funny you should point that out. I know of a place that is claimed by a person who's deed doesn't reach this spot of ground, and isn't claimed by the government who would be the only other party to have a claim. It would court action to fix it.

Amazingly enough there is a cache there.

October 20, 2003

Yes he is, but he is pissed off, but that is his own fault.

Just sounds like he was ignorant about ticks/lyme disease, and is trying to blame someone else about his ignorance.

Maybe he should just stay in the city.

Somewhere In ND

South of the hill

North of the tree

October 20, 2003

DO NOT ARCHIVE THIS CACHE UNTIL I CAN LOG IT AND GET MY FAIR SHARE OF TICKS!!!

See J&MBella is catching up to my numbers and strategically trying to knock off those caches he did that I have not. Nice try - I am on to you!!!

-Squealy

So many caches, why am I on the forums?

3.9k · October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Squealy:
DO NOT ARCHIVE THIS CACHE UNTIL I CAN LOG IT AND GET MY FAIR SHARE OF TICKS!!!

See J&MBella is catching up to my numbers and strategically trying to knock off those caches he did that I have not. Nice try - I am on to you!!!

-Squealy

So many caches, why am I on the forums?

D@mn Squealy. I thought I was gonna pull one over on you. I may have to take a couple of days off and do some speed caching out in Nassau to catch up to you now. Logged #157 today. Only 65 more to go to catch up to you. Only 1943 to go to catch StayFloopy.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

[This message was edited by J&MBella on October 20, 2003 at 07:58 PM.]

[This message was edited by J&MBella on October 20, 2003 at 09:47 PM.]

October 20, 2003

A simple "Watch out for Ticks" would have sufficed.

The groundskeeper seems to have a problem with the cache being there... Here's a tip:

Tell him what caching is, and that initially a few people will want to find it, and then it will slow down to one or two a week, and after a few eeks, one or two a month.

Then ask him where he would recommend, and if there is a good place that would hide it adequately, be in an area that won't cause any harm, yet would still draw people to come to this historical treasure and enjoy it... people who might otherwise never know that it is there.

Let him know that the cache is just a way to show people the location, as are many other caches.

If you let him show you where he thinks might be good, then he is in on it, and may even protect the cache from vandalism to some extent.

By having a role in it, he become "part owner".

Of course, he may tell you to **** off and die, but it's worth a try.

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

October 20, 2003

J&MBella- Sounds to me like this guy was so freaked out by the ticks that he decided to lace it into the cache owner for everything. His story of the daughter coming down w/Lyme disease symptoms a day later makes no sense. And although deer ticks (the ones that can carry Lyme disease) are small, they are not all invisible to the naked eye until engorged, like the guy said.

One of my personal peeves is this attitude of running screaming from the outdoors because of lyme disease-bearing ticks, west nile disease- bearing mosquitoes, etc., etc., etc. I have been in the field of outdoor education for many, many years and I cannot begin to explain the level of fear that the kids/parents/teachers I have encountered on Long Island (I'm sure it's the same elsewhere) have of these things.

When teaching out in the field, I always, always, always have the kids take precautions for ticks - tucking pants into socks, doing tick checks, etc. I teach them how to i.d. poison ivy. I tell them that precautions are just common sense, ticks & skeeters are almost everywhere, and the only way to avoid this stuff is to be locked into a plastic bubble!

Anyone who wants to learn more about ticks should visit this website:American Lyme Disease Foundation

Perhaps a bit of education will allay some fears for people.

Sorry for the rant, I just am a big advocate of being outdoors, and doing it sensibly & intelligently, not with mass hysteria!

-TeamELRAY

October 20, 2003

J&MBella- Sounds to me like this guy was so freaked out by the ticks that he decided to lace it into the cache owner for everything. His story of the daughter coming down w/Lyme disease symptoms a day later makes no sense. And although deer ticks (the ones that can carry Lyme disease) are small, they are not all invisible to the naked eye until engorged, like the guy said.

One of my personal peeves is this attitude of running screaming from the outdoors because of lyme disease-bearing ticks, west nile disease- bearing mosquitoes, etc., etc., etc. I have been in the field of outdoor education for many, many years and I cannot begin to explain the level of fear that the kids/parents/teachers I have encountered on Long Island (I'm sure it's the same elsewhere) have of these things.

When teaching out in the field, I always, always, always have the kids take precautions for ticks - tucking pants into socks, doing tick checks, etc. I teach them how to i.d. poison ivy. I tell them that precautions are just common sense, ticks & skeeters are almost everywhere, and the only way to avoid this stuff is to be locked into a plastic bubble!

Anyone who wants to learn more about ticks should visit this website:American Lyme Disease Foundation

Perhaps a bit of education will allay some fears for people.

Sorry for the rant, I just am a big advocate of being outdoors, and doing it sensibly & intelligently, not with mass hysteria!

-TeamELRAY

October 20, 2003

Whoops, sorry everyone for 1)the double post - the computer went crazy on me.... and 2) the link to the american lyme disease foundation - I don't think the link is working, just type in www.aldf.org if you are interested in seeing the site. -TeamELRAY

9.5k · October 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bull Moose:
Can a location be both private property and a federally protected wetland?

---Stats banner used to be here.---

Yes, and it is very common in Washington State. Think salmon.

Cheers!

TL

October 21, 2003

I don't think he was out of line. I cached alone on two caches. The following day I was in agony from chigger bites. I do not heal easily and still have the scars circling my ankles from July. I did not rant, but did edit my finders log that I got eaten up.

I also went on a cache hunt in an unfamiliar part of town and was terrified by Golden Orb spiders. I also posted in my NON finders log that the spiders were numerous and scarry.

Now...do I take heed of warnings? YOU BET! There are sevreal caches I have NOT gone to find beacuse of a mention of snakes. I figure I will try and look for them in deep winter when I hope most snakes and or insects are dead or sleeping.

Am I a wuss? sure...but my kids and hubby need me and I need them and no cache is worth dying from snakes or Lyme disease.

October 21, 2003

quote:
It turns out that WRR planted this cache in the middle of a tick infested area

so,the cache is in nj?????

October 21, 2003

RK, you bring up an interesting point

quote:
Funny you should point that out. I know of a place that is claimed by a person whose deed doesn't reach this spot of ground, and isn't claimed by the government who would be the only other party to have a claim. It would court action to fix it.

All land in the United States was owned at one time by the federal government and then they conveyed out their interest to other parties. The question of who owns the land can be determined by researching the indexes of deeds and conveyances and determined in that fashion. Yes it takes time, but it can be done.

This is commonly known as a deed overlap or deed gap, if the two properties do not abut each other. This mostly occurs due to different beginning points. The rule of thumb for surveyors and title geeks, is that monuments, such as a river or road, take precedence over distances, regardless of what is recorded. If a gap is discovered, the chain of title is pursued back to the oldest deed and the heirs are attempted to be contacted (bad grammar). If their can be no resolution, the county assigns an account number and assesses the property and eventually it goes into tax foreclosure and then is either purchased for the back taxes or the county acquires the property.

Now for the $64,000 question, what about rivers, lakes, streams other bodies of water. In Oregon, all water and the ground under the water is considered owned by the state. For navigable bodies of water, the high water mark is the boundary for public usage. The definition of high water mark and navigable has not been determined by the court or legislature, so the definitions are a little vague.

This post adds nothing in terms of whether the guy was out of line or not, but might clear up some of the confusion regarding the boundary of the cache. A check with the local official where the property is located might clear up where the boundary is.

As to whether or not the cache finder was in the right to go about such a rambling and argumentive post, is not correct. A polite email or post would have been sufficient. I do believe that there is a disclaimer on the cache location page that says that one is taking full responsibility for all their actions for searching out the cache. I believe that the poster was out of line.

See the happy moron

He doesn't give a da**

I wish I were a moron

My God, perhaps I am

Author Unknown

October 21, 2003

I’m not sure what is more out of line - his hysteria about a cache in a tick infested area or your portrayal of geocaching as a high-risk, extremist "sport" restricted to only "outdoors" daredevils?

October 23, 2003

You ain't got nothin' to whine about 'til ya'll lived in Alabama...

Chiggers

Ticks

Poison Ivy

Copperheads

Cotton mouth/Water Moccasins

Poison Sumac

Inbreeders

Brown Recluse Spiders

Black Widow Spiders

Leaches

Wasps, Bees, Hornets & Yellowjackets.

Centipedes

Even Tigers (people keep 'em as pets!)

90° Temp 90% Humidity

Thunderstorms that make Seattle's look like a small spark.

Tornadoes.

The only place I can think of more dangerous is maybe the Austrailian outback & Mount Everest.

7.2k · October 23, 2003

Closed at the request of the topic author.

mtn-man... admin brick mason

"approver of all trades" -- per Woodsters Outdoors

Is this guy out of line?

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