Geogamer.com -- anyone else seen this yet?

9.1k · June 10, 2002

quote:
They are putting a tm after cachecoin so there has to be a paper trail somewhere.

You don't have to file a trademark application in order to claim common law trademark rights. You can only use the little "R" in a circle if you have a registered trademark. Anybody can put "TM" after a witty catch phrase. Some forum members should consider trademarking their signature lines!

There was also a link to the patent office search engine awhile back in this thread. The right place to search is the trademark database, not the patent database. I just did that, and drew a big fat blank. Neither Geogamers nor cachecoin is a registered trademark.

-- Dave the Leprechaun

Boring attorney by day, adventurous geocacher in his dreams

June 11, 2002

DisQuoi, Thanks for placing my comment on the same level as the other notable opinions that have been made in the past. Perhaps the next time "an ignorant and stupid" remark is made, you will be so kind as to add mine to your list. I am impressed that you were able to respond to my remark in less than an hour with such an inventory of comments. Do you keep them handy for times like this or are you planning a book on the subject?

June 11, 2002

DisQuoi, Thanks for placing my comment on the same level as the other notable opinions that have been made in the past. Perhaps the next time "an ignorant and stupid" remark is made, you will be so kind as to add mine to your list. I am impressed that you were able to respond to my remark in less than an hour with such an inventory of comments. Do you keep them handy for times like this or are you planning a book on the subject?

June 11, 2002

quote:
Disquoi, You’re implying that the promise of this new website may be as substantial as the telephone, the airplane, the Beatles, pasteurization, and brain surgery. All we have to do is wait and see. Your viewpoint is logical but lacking in discernment. The future of Geogaming appears to me to have more in common with Amway or the Publishers Clearing House. Surely you don’t open all your junk mail out of respect for the potential it represents.

My inclusion of those famous last words was to illustrate that one shouldn't use the words "no imaginable commercial value", "Who would pay for ...", "is on the way out", or "impossible" to describe a new approach to something. By the way, Amway and the Publishers Clearing House are very successful endeavors, as unpopular as you'd like to view them. Also, consider the exponential explosion of the popularity of this activity. It has elements of the same kind of popularity and fanatisism (read the cult-like loyalty in this thread alone ... it's freakish) as the Beatles saw,

quote:
Geogaming has a right to exist and its detractors the right not participate in it. But this is implicit in almost all human activity and your vigorous defense of this concept seems unnecessary.

I'm sorry that you see only my vigorous defense of entrepreneurship (as doomed to failure as it may be) and not the vigorous (and groundless) attempts to destroy it before it has begun. This forum was started for the purpose of discussion of Geogaming. So far, with few exceptions, it has been a close-minded denigration of someone's effort to provide an alternative to this site.

quote:
Besides, at one time phrenology, alchemy and the Edsel were all considered to be good ideas.

Maybe we should stop supporting new ideas just in case they turn out to be dogs. Let's provide geocaching.com an assurance that we will ALWAYS use ONLY this database NO MATTER WHAT. That way, those developing geocaching.com will feel a great sense of motivation to continue improving it.

I do not vigorously defend Geogaming.com. Frankly, I don’t see the added value relative to geocaching.com. But I defend anyone willing to invest their own money in an idea that PROBABLY won't create any returns to them in the long run (including Jeremy). I don't think any alternate geocaching service will work with the mentality that pervades here. Geocaching.com is clearly the only viable database due to the vast number of caches available. It will take very much of money and effort for anyone to catch up. IT WILL BE GOOD FOR YOU IF SOMEONE DOES. Play Geogames or not (I don't plan to) but don't needlessly drag it through the dirt.

9.4k · June 11, 2002

1. They farmed email addresses from web sites linked through geocaching (most likely through a google search or some marketing (spam) company). Not a good way to create brand loyalty. There are other less intrusive ways to start a web site and create "buzz".

2. The company (Professional Media Group, Inc.) offered to buy the web site several months ago. I'll see if I can locate the email but they apparently decided to take the alternative method since we declined.

3. It seems that they decided to launch too early. Filler text is fine and good for an unlaunched web site, but actively marketing themselves, the content just looks deceptive.

If the concept is good, I say go for it. Anything new for folks who play geocaching and keeps it interesting is fine. It's better than creating a "me too" web site that dupicates the functionality of the geocaching.com site and really doesn't have much more to offer.

Unfortunately this one looks like the thought has been more on profit than engaging entertainment. But it is in the early stages, so who knows?

Obviously they won't have many caches starting out. It took a long time for this sport to grow (especially since there was no group to spam). That shouldn't be a reason to dump on them.

With that said, if they do start using these forums and the web site to start marketing their commercial enterprise, I will shut them down here. I'll also be looking into any copyright violations.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

June 11, 2002

Excellent. Well said.

June 11, 2002

I like geocaching and even though I have not been participating for very long..My loyalty runs deep as Jeremy has been there since almost day one.

Jeremy...be looking for my charter membership to be activated this weekend.

I think I can part with 3 bucks to help you offset your enormous costs and time you put in here.

June 11, 2002

Disquoi, Squelching the competition hasn’t been the issue here. After all, there are other Geocaching sites and related activities that exist already (and except for the occasional internecine squabble) are respected as viable alternatives to this site. You missed the fundamental point of this thread in your first post when you said ‘I’ve checked out the website and am not offended in the least’

Since then you’ve tried to make the argument about freedom of competition while everybody else is trying to size up this new Geogame and decide whether it is an attractive alternative to geocaching or just a corporate profit venture. Most everybody who’s posted in this thread finds Geogaming’s commercial face to be a cause for some level of concern.

You’re talking apples (perhaps you should start another thread?) while everybody else is talking oranges.

I dislike what I see of Geogaming for the same reasons that I dislike 15-minute commercial blocks on the radio, going to the movies and sitting through the same commercials I see on TV. , Spam, ultra bright electronic billboards, and x-mas decorations on sale before Thanksgiving, etc. These aren’t big or important objections, but massed together it takes on the weight of an entire consumer culture interminably digging at you for your money, time, and attention.

I’m sure this is obvious to you. What apparently isn’t obvious to you is that the concern in this thread has more to do with a fear of creeping cultural commercialism (that would very willingly have us wearing logos and going caching to the ‘extreme’) than the ‘freakish cult like loyalty’ you proclaim as the reason for the uproar.

Commercialism is the issue here, not freedom of entrepreneurship. Geocaching has been one of those rare oases of community activity free (relatively) of the blight that reduces us to nothing more than consumers. Geogaming, with its marketing and prize structure is a disappointing and perhaps inevitable spin on geocaching towards the commercial mainstream.

And please, drop the personal characterizations, (stupid, ignorant, freakish, close minded). They’re inflammatory and in no way further your argument. Undoubtedly, you can think of occasions when the same terms could have been applied to you.

5k · June 11, 2002

Um, I kinda like this:

quote:
Originally posted by Syn Aka Waynepdx:
The CacheHost's Pledge

Once a cache is placed, it is my responsibility to maintain it, as well as the surrounding area. I will return as often as I can to ensure that my cache is not negatively impacting the environment and to ensure that it is in good repair. Once others have visited my cache, I will honor their opinion as to my choice of location and any other concerns they may have regarding it. If the area is becoming overrun or if visitors are disrupting the landscape in any way, I will remove it or relocate it to another more appropriate hiding place.

We need something like that here.

Jamie

June 12, 2002

As much as i'd like to believe it is true, i know that i am not the center of the universe. However, i can't help but think that i'm a LITTLE responsible for the 'is kim real?' topic on the geogamer forums website. either way, it tickles me that such a forum exists.

June 12, 2002

"You missed the fundamental point of this thread in your first post when you said ‘I’ve checked out the website and am not offended in the least’"

I didn't realize you were the one to set the fundamental point of this thread.

"Since then you’ve tried to make the argument about freedom of competition while everybody else is trying to size up this new Geogame and decide whether it is an attractive alternative to geocaching or just a corporate profit venture. Most everybody who’s posted in this thread finds Geogaming’s commercial face to be a cause for some level of concern."

I see the commercial face. But I'm not willing, at this point, to decide it's fate when they haven't gotten off of the ground yet. Kind of like judging a book by its cover.

"I dislike what I see of Geogaming for the same reasons that I dislike 15-minute commercial blocks on the radio, going to the movies and sitting through the same commercials I see on TV. , Spam, ultra bright electronic billboards, and x-mas decorations on sale before Thanksgiving, etc. These aren’t big or important objections, but massed together it takes on the weight of an entire consumer culture interminably digging at you for your money, time, and attention."

I agree with you. I don't like over-commercialism in general. However, Jeremy has stated clearly that geocaching.com is business, not National-Public-Geocaching (NPG) supported by member like you. I doubt that he will rule out doing what it takes to make it both profitable for him and enjoyable for us.

"I’m sure this is obvious to you. What apparently isn’t obvious to you is that the concern in this thread has more to do with a fear of creeping cultural commercialism (that would very willingly have us wearing logos and going caching to the ‘extreme’) than the ‘freakish cult like loyalty’ you proclaim as the reason for the uproar."

In the context of this discussion, I think it's appropriate to comment on the commercial aspects of the new-site (it's structural to the game) ... but it's the cult-like loyalty that leads people to discount it entirely before it's even begun. But let me remind you, it's not "creeping" at the Gamers site. How could it? It's brand new. Whether it's "creeping" here is the topic of another thread.

"Commercialism is the issue here, not freedom of entrepreneurship. Geocaching has been one of those rare oases of community activity free (relatively) of the blight that reduces us to nothing more than consumers. Geogaming, with its marketing and prize structure is a disappointing and perhaps inevitable spin on geocaching towards the commercial mainstream."

In six months, I've spent $30 on this activity that has gone to the revenue of geocaching.com. I've spent hundreds or arguably thousands of dollars for direct and indirect expenses related to the sport. I've estimated (in this thread) that for me, it costs almost $30 per cache to participate. I guess if I played primarily on the Gamers site, it's cost $32 per cache. If I thought that it was worth 6 percent more to me, I'd use them (but I don't yet).

"And please, drop the personal characterizations, (stupid, ignorant, freakish, close minded). They’re inflammatory and in no way further your argument. Undoubtedly, you can think of occasions when the same terms could have been applied to you."

Absolutley, I can be all four of those things (which is why I can use them here ... I can also be cult-like). I'll drop "stupid" and "freakish" but not "ignorant" or "close-minded". Heat of the moment, you know. People can make observations (based on conjecture or experience, mostly conjecture here) and they can make conclusions. I think it's premature to make conclusions. As Jeremy put it (and I agree), "it is in the early stages, so who knows?"

p.s., I like that I can buy X-Mas decorations before Thanksgiving, if I want to. After all, it’s America,

3k · June 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Z:

We need something like that here.

Reminds me of the late 1980's Earthday Project "Zwibble Dibble" videos and books for tiny tots. The "Zwibble Dibbles" (baby "star-touched" dinosaurs) all recited the following pledge: "No job is too big, no action too small, for the care of the earth is the task of us all."

June 12, 2002

I just visited geogamer again and five of my caches are cross listed on the site.

Maybe I should not have posted the throwaway name I used to get on there.

I bet someone went over there and cross listed my caches.

Stupid me...I will learn my lesson now.

June 16, 2002

This is taken from an entry in one of their forum threads (there's even a thread started by the owners to put some real names on this effort of theirs):

"You are correct, there is NO COST to find or list caches on GeoGamer.com. GeoGamer allows players to do exactly what they are doing now, FREE. But for those who are interested, it also offers a way to track points from a competitive standpoint and a way to earn merchandise for those efforts. As our website matures, it is designed to provide a means by which local clubs and organizations can utilize our site and gaming supplies in order to sponsor their own events and as fundraisers.

As for the cost of CacheHost stickers, the posted cost of $1 is to cover printing and postage. We are planning on making them available by using a PDF document and issuing them electronically, but we’re not quite there yet. The main issue for the delay is the issue of quality control. We are currently printing them on bumper-sticker type material with an adhesive backing so it will stick to a cache box lid. If players were to print their own labels, we would have no control regarding the quality of paper or ink used (a color inkjet printer using 20# bond paper would not hold up very long outdoors let alone last in moist conditions.)

I can´t emphasize this point enough. The intent of GeoGamer is not, nor has it ever been to try and replace Geocaching.com (why would we?) or better yet, how could we? Our purpose here is to complement Geocaching activities, not to compete with them. Simply put, the idea behind launching our site is to offer people just another way to play.

Stan"

June 16, 2002

I've only been a member for a few weeks adn am wondering where their marketing research came from? Does anyone remember filling out any online surveys? Maybe their research came from Goecaching.com's online pols. Possibly another violation of some kind!!

1.7k · June 16, 2002

I have to agree with Jeremy has said regarding GeoGaming. As far as I am concerned I'm not surprised that people will try to cash in on Geocaching and try to create a website that is focused genertaing profit. We'll just have to see what happens, so far it looks like yet another badly planned dot-com. We'll just have to wait and see. Personally if I have to spend six bucks for cache bait I'd rather get some two or three dollar items that are really good.

By the way Disquoi where did you get all of those quotes, I copied them to my computer for future use.

June 16, 2002

These guys kind of remind me of my long lost youth. Those days you collected popcicle bags, sent in x number of bags and $.50 for shipping and handling for your selected prize. I don't think it will last as long as the collecting of bags did. Not to worry.

Byron

June 17, 2002

Fellow Cachers,

Let me introduce myself. I am a mother of 3 and a grandmother of 4. I enjoy the new sport of GeoCaching the same as you do, but I don’t get much time to participate. I recently started my own business with a company called Prepaid Legal Services, Inc.. In addition to that, I am a member and director of a Business Leads Group, and am responsible for the office duties of my husband’s (NetMan), networking company. When I can find time, I enjoy spending it with my grandchildren, scuba diving, dancing, traveling and of course hunting for caches.

I just finished reading the forum comments on this site. I have to say, it really breaks my heart on how some of the avid Geocachers like yourselves totally misunderstood the intent of GeoGamer. We weren't trying to replace Geocaching.com, but merely offering ANOTHER way to play. I can assure you, in no way were we trying to be deceitful in the postings found at the launching of the site (i.e. the Kim story). Furthermore, no one from GeoGamer made any of the phone calls mentioned in one of the earlier comments. GeoGamer does not and never did intend to change the way the game is currently being played. We do believe if something isn’t broken, don’t fix it, and as far as we can tell, Geocaching doesn’t seem to be broken. Out of respect for Jeremy’s site, I will not go into detail here about GeoGamer, but I will say that our intention was to reward everyone who wanted to play, so everyone can be a winner.

It was a comment of mine that started it all a few months back when I said, "I wish there was a way my dive club could sponsor an underwater cache dive as a fundraiser.” From there, Ben and Stan came up with the concept of how it could be done and CacheCoins were born. We wanted to take this idea to the clubs, churchs, etc., (like the Revlon walk for cancer I participated in). It was fun, AND its purpose was to raise funds for a good cause. We first had to introduce to the public to see how it worked before we could take it any further.

GeoGamer allows players to do exactly what they are doing now, for FREE. But for those interested, it also offers a way to track points from a competitive stance and a way to earn merchandise for those efforts. Later it will give organizations a way to sponsor events and raise money. The mailing in of the coins was for the players benefit, not ours. We plan on holding drawings which would give the winners additional points and/or merchandise depending on revenue. We are not benefiting at all in the mailing of the coins. Obviously, the more people that play with CacheCoins, the more revenue generated to buy and give away better merchandise. We must have done a poor job explaining our concept since few of you seem to understand it and only think that GeoGamer is a scam run by a bunch of crooks. I can’t say enough how disappointed I am with the venimous welcome we’ve received from most of you. We had good intent and spent a lot of time and effort on this site, and we are not what you have judged us to be.

I am sure all of you are intelligent enough that if you knew the entire business concept, you would agree our planned contributions to this sport is a good thing and not a scam. Nor is it a MLM like Amway (as one of you so cleverly categorized). We so hoped that the people already playing the game would embrace it and inspire others to do the same. It is truly our fault that you don’t completely understand it very well. I am truly sorry for that and we are working on correcting it.

I am registered in the Yahoo GeoCaching group under associate2forppl if any of you have further questions or wish to engage in further discussion.

June 18, 2002

I think it's generous of Jeremy (or current modifier of this thread) to allow the posting of a sales pitch from a commercial geocaching site.

June 18, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by joedohn:
I think it's generous of Jeremy (or current modifier of this thread) to allow the posting of a sales pitch from a commercial geocaching site.

[Previously posted personal comment deleted, I apologize]

I appreciate that LovinPPL took the time to explain away much of what has been dispiuted here. I doubt Jeremy is concerned that another commercial geocaching site is being discussed here. I did not interpret LovinPPL's post as a "sales" pitch. If you interpreted it that way, then stop reading this thread. THE TOPIC IS INHERENTLY ABOUT GEOGAMERS.

[This message was edited by DisQuoi on June 18, 2002 at 07:33 AM.]

June 18, 2002

You're getting personal again. Send me an email if your desire is to refute me specifically.

1.1k · June 18, 2002

LovinPPL,

I think the issue here is the way that you went about contacting individuals who play, effectively spamming them with your introduction through email, which is very poor netiquette. At least that is what my issue is with it.

I understand that when a community gets large enough it becomes a viable target for products/services. That's something that can't be changed, and truly many services are designed to fit a "need" and embraced by a community.

Unfortunately, having a concept that isn't easy to understand, then soliciting feedback (to a community that you already spammed) in order to make your business plan work is pretty insulting. You could be Mother Theresa, but speaking through your previous actions doesn't instill trust in your brand or your offering.

If some enlightened geocacher has any more salient points to make on this topic, feel free to open another thread. I'm closing this one.

Jeremy

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Geogamer.com -- anyone else seen this yet?

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