Pre signing the log

June 30, 2002

When two different Geocachers go out together and one of them puts out a cache, is it ok for the other one to presign the cache log. Then go and log it on the internet as a first find. It happens regular around here. When you get to the cache thinking you are going to be the first finder, you read the cache log and you are third. The cache hidders freinds have already signed it. I think the freind should sign the 3rd or 4th page of the log book and wait to log it on the internet untill real first finders find it. What do you think?

2.6k · June 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Rooster_KF & Double C:
When two different Geocachers go out together and one of them puts out a cache, is it ok for the other one to presign the cache log. Then go and log it on the internet as a first find. It happens regular around here. When you get to the cache thinking you are going to be the first finder, you read the cache log and you are third. The cache hidders freinds have already signed it. I think the freind should sign the 3rd or 4th page of the log book and wait to log it on the internet untill real first finders find it. What do you think?

That's just so wrong I don't know what to say. Signing the log before it's been hidden?

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

1.3k · June 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

That's just so wrong I don't know what to say. Signing the log before it's been hidden?

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

I have to agree. In fact I just went out on a hide today. Not only didn't I sign the log book, but I didn't log it as a find on the internet either.

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

5.3k · June 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Rooster_KF & Double C:

I think the freind should sign the 3rd or 4th page of the log book and wait to log it on the internet untill real first finders find it.

I don't think the friend should log it as a find, period.

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:
I don't think the friend should log it as a find, period.

My knee was jerking right there with you FizzyMagic, and then I realized that something else might be happening here.

Cache hiders that do this might be playing it safe and hiking with a buddy.

They tell the buddy "Wait here, I'll hide the cache and you can find it after I get back."

The buddy sits down on a nice mossy log and starts to count bugs while the hider takes whatever time is need to find a good spot and grab some reasonably accurate coordinates.

The hider verbally passes these coordinates to the buddy (since we still can't &^%$ Ir them back-n-forth) who then hunts the cache in the traditional way.

The buddy carpooled to the spot and had to spend twenty minutes on their keister, but may not have done anything wrong in our eyes.

Or maybe it's 2AM and I really need to get to sleep before I post more tripe?

38.2k · July 1, 2002

That's pretty dishonest. I've put out a few caches with fellow geocachers and wouldn't think of logging theirs as my find, nor have they logged my caches as their find. The type of people who do this are just in the game for their find numbers.

I've also heard of people logging finds on their own caches when they do maintenance. Hey, if these people can live with themselves, then what are you gonna do.

July 1, 2002

You need to start a local geocaching association in your area so it can put peer pressure on those who are "pre-signing" logs. Around here we wouldn't think of doing something like that. In fact, my wife recently hid a cache and although she listed it as a "Ken & Robin" cache, it's actually under her own I.D. I wouldn't think of logging it as a find because it would look so fishy, even though I have no clue where it's hidden and it keeps showing up on my list of nearest unfound caches.

July 1, 2002

You need to start a local geocaching association in your area so it can put peer pressure on those who are "pre-signing" logs. Around here we wouldn't think of doing something like that. In fact, my wife recently hid a cache and although she listed it as a "Ken & Robin" cache, it's actually under her own I.D. I wouldn't think of logging it as a find because it would look so fishy, even though I have no clue where it's hidden and it keeps showing up on my list of nearest unfound caches.

20.7k · July 1, 2002

Ken may have hit on an alternative reason for the friend to log the cache.

If he doesn't log it, it stays on his 'nearest caches' list.

Perhaps less people will do this if (when?) we have the ability to ignore caches that we don't intend to hunt.

July 1, 2002

Some how it just doesn't seem right....

I have gone out with several newbies that I have introduced to Geocaching, they were using my GPS on several occasions and since they found the cache and not I, I have them post it. Because of that, my "page" shows about a dozen caches around my house that I have not found, but I have seen.

It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

2.6k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Eric O'Connor:

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:
I don't think the friend should log it as a find, period.

My knee was jerking right there with you FizzyMagic, and then I realized that something else _might_ be happening here.

Cache hiders that do this might be playing it safe and hiking with a buddy.

They tell the buddy "Wait here, I'll hide the cache and you can find it after I get back."

The buddy sits down on a nice mossy log and starts to count bugs while the hider takes whatever time is need to find a good spot and grab some reasonably accurate coordinates.

The hider verbally passes these coordinates to the buddy (since we still can't &^%$ Ir them back-n-forth) who then hunts the cache in the traditional way.

The buddy carpooled to the spot and had to spend twenty minutes on their keister, but may not have done anything wrong in our eyes.

Or maybe it's 2AM and I really need to get to sleep before I post more tripe?

Finding a cache is more than just finding something hidden in the bushes.

It's figuring out the best route in, figuring out which trail leads there after taking 2 wrong turns, it's not being sure you're in right area since the tree cover is so thick and you're gettin really poor acuracy.

And you don't get FTF's for just being there. You earn a FTF because you decided to go get the new one instead the long list of honey-do's. Dirty looks from the wife area expected.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

3k · July 1, 2002

I don't know about your specific experience, but I have heard of many instances in which cache owners have e-mailed the coordinates to friends so they could do a "test run" prior to submitting the cache for approval. I don't see a problem with that; the "insiders" may discover problems that require remedy, thereby potentially saving everyone else a lot of time, trouble and disappointment.

2.6k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
I don't know about your specific experience, but I have heard of many instances in which cache owners have e-mailed the coordinates to friends so they could do a "test run" prior to submitting the cache for approval. I don't see a problem with that; the "insiders" may discover problems that require remedy, thereby potentially saving everyone else a lot of time, trouble and disappointment.

I don't see a problem with that at all. That is a legitimate find.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

July 1, 2002

Does it really matter who gets the First Find? Just like most people agree that the total number of caches found by a cacher is not a competition, so in my mind is the FTF not a competition. If I get one great, but it is not something I normally look for. Especially since FTF is so dependent on so many other factors (personal responsibilities, jobs, families, etc.), it is not something I attribute great value to. If there are people who can go caching on a moments notice when a nearby cache is posted, great, but because my job won't allow me to that, I don't worry about it.

So the separate question is 'What constitutes a find?' and should be logged as such.

quote:
I have gone out with several newbies that I have introduced to Geocaching, they were using my GPS on several occasions and since they found the cache and not I, I have them post it. Because of that, my "page" shows about a dozen caches around my house that I have not found, but I have seen.

In my mind this scenario still represents a find for everybody there. Just because a group of people is caching together, it is not just one person out of the group that will get credit for the find. Should a person going along with the hidder get credit for a find? I don't know. But then again I don't really care as I am not too concerned with other people's find counts.

But I do believe that it is okay for someone who hides a cache to eventully log their own cache as a find. I have done so with all of mine. I make a point to let several other people log first, and I only do log a find after I make a maintenance visit to the cache location. Since hides do not show up in the find count I think logging your own caches is okay. Plus it removes your cache from the search page which is important to me until there is some other way to mark caches as such.

2.8k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Plus it removes your cache from the search page which is important to me until there is some other way to mark caches as such

Logging your own cache is certainly not in the spirit of the sport/hobby/activity.

Caches hidden and caches found are clearly delineated on the search page. Also, wouldn't logging it just move it from one group to the other.

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by pdxmarathonman:

Logging your own cache is certainly not in the spirit of the sport/hobby/activity.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I think it is very diffcult to say what is the spirit of the game, as it is up to each of us to define the game. And I think this is a particular subject where there is some disagreement. I guess I will let the cache hider make the rules on this one. Interestingly enough this subject has not been discussed much in the forums.

quote:
Caches hidden and caches found are clearly delineated on the search page. Also, wouldn't logging it just move it from one group to the other.

You're right. I imagined that the cache would be in the unfound list, and not listed in a third category.

1.9k · July 1, 2002

if i was to go on a fide i'd wait months to go find it so that my brain is foggy as to the route.

only dual hid one and i may go get it some time soon to do cache maitenence but a find on the internet, probably not.

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

3k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chloew:

But I do believe that it is okay for someone who hides a cache to eventully log their own cache as a find. I have done so with all of mine. I make a point to let several other people log first, and I only do log a find after I make a maintenance visit to the cache location. Since hides do not show up in the find count I think logging your own caches is okay.

I totally disagree. Some people have presented the argument that on a maintenance visit, their cache was far from its original placement, so they claimed a find. I consider that a specious argument, at best ... but I see that you have placed a virtual cache and even claimed that as a find. Sorry, but in my opinion that's padding at it's worst.

July 1, 2002

quote:
georgeandmary:
Finding a cache is more than just finding something hidden in the bushes.

It's figuring out the best route in, figuring out which trail leads there after taking 2 wrong turns, it's not being sure you're in right area since the tree cover is so thick and you're gettin really poor acuracy.

If only because I'm ornary, I'll ask....

Cacher A (AKA - "The Hider") decides to hide a cache on a sunny Saturday.

There is this wonderful park about an hours drive from where she lives, but it's remote and she doesn't feel safe going alone.

She invites a buddy, Cacher B (AKA "The FTF") to tag along with her.

The plan is that "A" will hide a cache while "B" seeks another cache hidden in a different part of the park. They agree to stay within radio contact throughout their visit to the park.

What if the two geocachers are a mile apart and communicating on radios?

That seems entirely reasonable to me and doesn't change anything I've said previously other than the distance apart.

A mile is more than sufficient to be unsure of how to best get to a cache location.

Another thing that bothers me about your definition is that it implies that prior knowledge is forbidden, that someone with a mapping GPSr loaded with topo maps hasn't reaaaaly found the cache. I know this isn't what you're saying but it seems to hint in that direction.

--

Hipsters, Flipsters, and Finger-Poppin' Daddies - Knock me your lobes!

I came here to lay Caesar out, - Not to hip you to him.

The bad jazz that a cat blows, - Wails long after he's cut out.

The groovy, is often stashed with their frames, - So don't put Caesar down.

- Lord Buckley

July 1, 2002

I don't think finding it first means a whole lot anyway. It's no different than finding it fifth.

July 1, 2002

I don't think finding it first means a whole lot anyway. It's no different than finding it fifth.

July 1, 2002

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

... but I see that you have placed a virtual cache and even claimed that as a find.

I forgot about that one and changed it to a note. I personally think the find number shown with the find notes should include finds and hides, which is one of the reasons I have logged some of my own. But then again I know what my number is and I really don't care what number is next to other people's names.

Where do you stand on logging your own event caches?

July 1, 2002

Until the day that Geocaching.com enables multiple owners of a cache, I don't see how someone who puts a lot of effort into a joint project to place a cache can get credit for it.

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

2.8k · July 1, 2002

quote:
But then again I know what my number is and I really don't care what number is next to other people's names

If you just want to be able to see your finds -vs- hides, that's available on your profile. Now if you want others to see a higher number next to your name then I guess I understand the logging of your own caches.

Haven't heard a better reason yet

2.8k · July 1, 2002

quote:
But then again I know what my number is and I really don't care what number is next to other people's names

If you just want to be able to see your finds -vs- hides, that's available on your profile. Now if you want others to see a higher number next to your name then I guess I understand the logging of your own caches.

Haven't heard a better reason yet

38.2k · July 1, 2002

Now in some of the scenarios discussed above, logging it is fine. But what Rooster seemed to be talking about is one cacher accompanying another while he hides a cache and the non cache owner, subsequently logging the cache. That's pretty lame.

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Snifferer:
I don't think finding it first means a whole lot anyway. It's no different than finding it fifth.

dove.gif

Oh, I will eventually be able to write a book about what you can run into trying to be first to a cache. My current favorite is the hider writing "Lots of houses in the area". They later updated the description to say "House lots in the area"!

WR

"Why worry when you can obsess?"

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Snifferer:
I don't think finding it first means a whole lot anyway. It's no different than finding it fifth.

dove.gif

Oh, I will eventually be able to write a book about what you can run into trying to be first to a cache. My current favorite is the hider writing "Lots of houses in the area". They later updated the description to say "House lots in the area"!

WR

"Why worry when you can obsess?"

3k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chloew:

... I personally think the find number shown with the find notes should include finds and hides, which is one of the reasons I have logged some of my own.

Dan Miller's Leaderboard lists cachers by combining the number of finds and hides. Geocaching Sweden has separate lists for both finds and hides. Something for everybody!

quote:
Originally posted by chloew:
Where do you stand on logging your own event caches?

There's an exception to every rule, isn't there?

My opinion is that event caches are a "horse of a different color" ... attending an event cache is a unique situation; collecting a find on an event cache is sort of like receiving a "gold star."

Yes, I feel it is proper for both attendees and arrangers of event caches to claim their "gold star."

3k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chloew:

... I personally think the find number shown with the find notes should include finds and hides, which is one of the reasons I have logged some of my own.

Dan Miller's Leaderboard lists cachers by combining the number of finds and hides. Geocaching Sweden has separate lists for both finds and hides. Something for everybody!

quote:
Originally posted by chloew:
Where do you stand on logging your own event caches?

There's an exception to every rule, isn't there?

My opinion is that event caches are a "horse of a different color" ... attending an event cache is a unique situation; collecting a find on an event cache is sort of like receiving a "gold star."

Yes, I feel it is proper for both attendees and arrangers of event caches to claim their "gold star."

3k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by WaldenRun:

Oh, I will eventually be able to write a book about what you can run into trying to be first to a cache.

Indeed. While the majority of my "first finds" have been nothing out of the ordinary, a good half dozen were definitely sneak previews of what hell must be like ... to put it politely, I've come across some pretty "creative" errors and omissions.

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
I don't know about your specific experience, but I have heard of many instances in which cache owners have e-mailed the coordinates to friends so they could do a "test run" prior to submitting the cache for approval. I don't see a problem with that; the "insiders" may discover problems that require remedy, thereby potentially saving everyone else a lot of time, trouble and disappointment.

I don't see a problem with that at all. That is a legitimate find.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

I have to diverge here. When your friends help you verify your cache, it's just part of hiding the cache, kinda like averaging coordinates from your GPSr.

This whole thing seems weird, like insider trading or something. It's just not right! ;-)

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:
I don't know about your specific experience, but I have heard of many instances in which cache owners have e-mailed the coordinates to friends so they could do a "test run" prior to submitting the cache for approval. I don't see a problem with that; the "insiders" may discover problems that require remedy, thereby potentially saving everyone else a lot of time, trouble and disappointment.

I don't see a problem with that at all. That is a legitimate find.

george

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

I have to diverge here. When your friends help you verify your cache, it's just part of hiding the cache, kinda like averaging coordinates from your GPSr.

This whole thing seems weird, like insider trading or something. It's just not right! ;-)

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Eric O'Connor:

quote:
georgeandmary:
Finding a cache is more than just finding something hidden in the bushes.

It's figuring out the best route in, figuring out which trail leads there after taking 2 wrong turns, it's not being sure you're in right area since the tree cover is so thick and you're gettin really poor acuracy.

If only because I'm ornary, I'll ask....

Cacher A (AKA - "The Hider") decides to hide a cache on a sunny Saturday.

There is this wonderful park about an hours drive from where she lives, but it's remote and she doesn't feel safe going alone.

She invites a buddy, Cacher B (AKA "The FTF") to tag along with her.

The plan is that "A" will hide a cache while "B" seeks another cache hidden in a different part of the park. They agree to stay within radio contact throughout their visit to the park.

What if the two geocachers are a mile apart and communicating on radios?

That seems entirely reasonable to me and doesn't change anything I've said previously other than the distance apart.

A mile is more than sufficient to be unsure of how to best get to a cache location.

Another thing that bothers me about your definition is that it implies that prior knowledge is forbidden, that someone with a mapping GPSr loaded with topo maps hasn't _reaaaaly_ found the cache. I know this isn't what you're saying but it seems to hint in that direction.

--

Hipsters, Flipsters, and Finger-Poppin' Daddies - Knock me your lobes!

I came here to lay Caesar out, - Not to hip you to him.

The bad jazz that a cat blows, - Wails long after he's cut out.

The groovy, is often stashed with their frames, - So don't put Caesar down.

- Lord Buckley

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Eric O'Connor:

quote:
georgeandmary:
Finding a cache is more than just finding something hidden in the bushes.

It's figuring out the best route in, figuring out which trail leads there after taking 2 wrong turns, it's not being sure you're in right area since the tree cover is so thick and you're gettin really poor acuracy.

If only because I'm ornary, I'll ask....

Cacher A (AKA - "The Hider") decides to hide a cache on a sunny Saturday.

There is this wonderful park about an hours drive from where she lives, but it's remote and she doesn't feel safe going alone.

She invites a buddy, Cacher B (AKA "The FTF") to tag along with her.

The plan is that "A" will hide a cache while "B" seeks another cache hidden in a different part of the park. They agree to stay within radio contact throughout their visit to the park.

What if the two geocachers are a mile apart and communicating on radios?

That seems entirely reasonable to me and doesn't change anything I've said previously other than the distance apart.

A mile is more than sufficient to be unsure of how to best get to a cache location.

Another thing that bothers me about your definition is that it implies that prior knowledge is forbidden, that someone with a mapping GPSr loaded with topo maps hasn't _reaaaaly_ found the cache. I know this isn't what you're saying but it seems to hint in that direction.

--

Hipsters, Flipsters, and Finger-Poppin' Daddies - Knock me your lobes!

I came here to lay Caesar out, - Not to hip you to him.

The bad jazz that a cat blows, - Wails long after he's cut out.

The groovy, is often stashed with their frames, - So don't put Caesar down.

- Lord Buckley

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Bluespreacher

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

3k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Bluespreacher:
This whole thing seems weird, like insider trading or something. It's just not right! ;-)

Well, apparently then, "it's the American Way."

3k · July 1, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Bluespreacher:
This whole thing seems weird, like insider trading or something. It's just not right! ;-)

Well, apparently then, "it's the American Way."

4.5k · July 1, 2002

Let me see if I got this right.

First you hide a cache and sign in the first page and go home and Bingo - you post your 1st find on the web.

The next week you go to your cache to perform maintenance, return home and BINGO - you post your 2nd find on the web.

A few days later, you go to your cache, plunder it, relocate it 50 feet away, sign the log book return home and Bingo - you post you 3rd find.

Hey. That's pretty neat. what a deal!!

It's kinda like masturbation or playing chess with yourself, but what the heck.

Alan

1.8k · July 1, 2002

If I went out to hide a cache with somebody, I'd log it as a find just to get it off my ''nearest 25'' list.

'''I wonder what Latitude or Longitude I've got to?' (Alice had no idea what Latitude was, or Longitude either, but thought they were nice grand words to say.)'' -- Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

20.7k · July 2, 2002

My gut feeling is this: If you help someone hide a cache or are present when it is hidden, you should not log it as a find.

You should never log your own cache as a find. If it has been moved, finding it is part of cache maintenance and should not be logged as a 'find'.

Only if it is specifically approved by the cache owner should you log a cache multiple times (or log as a find if you did not sign the log. EXCEPTION-Caches without pens.)

That being said, the log count of others is really not impotant to me. This has recently been made more so as a local fellow has gotten a burr up his butt and deleted my 'find' logs on all of his caches. It bothers me that there are now a million 1/1 micros showing up on my 'nearest caches' list, but it doesn't affect my 'find' count because I know how many I've found.

5k · July 2, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:
...a local fellow has gotten a burr up his butt and deleted my 'find' logs on all of his caches.

Tell us more about this. Interesting.

Jamie

20.7k · July 2, 2002

This guy has decided that I'm his enemy. Therefore he has taken it upon himself to 1) send me threatening emails, 2) get his friends to send me irritating emails, 3) delete my finds, and 4) steal my cache http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=9090

8.9k · July 2, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by travisl:
If I went out to hide a cache with somebody, I'd log it as a find just to get it off my ''nearest 25'' list.

You wouldn't have to. They're already segregated just like finds.

The list groups are in this order of grouping...

--caches unfound

--caches you found

--caches you hid

--caches currently unavailable

I presume you're only interested in getting caches off your "caches unfound" group. Your hidden caches show up below your found caches.

Markwell

Chicago Geocachers

5.3k · July 2, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:

quote:
Originally posted by travisl:
If I went out to hide a cache with somebody, I'd log it as a find just to get it off my ''nearest 25'' list.

You wouldn't have to. They're already segregated just like finds.

Umm, no. Geocaching.com currently has no way to credit a placement to more than one person. SO if you go out with somebody else to place a cache, and it is placed in his or her name, then that cache will show up on your page as an unfound cache.

That's no excuse for logging it as a find, but at least he has a point.

5k · July 2, 2002

sbell,

Now... it's his cache and all, and as the owner, he should be able to maintain it how he likes, but deleting your found logs? That's just immature, and an abuse of hiding priveledges.

Of course, we haven't heard his side of the story, but I feel this should be brought to the attention of geocaching admin. This guy should not be allowed to own caches if he deletes found logs just because he doesn't like you.

Jamie

20.7k · July 2, 2002

I sent an email to admin, but I haven't heard anything.

5k · July 2, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:
I sent an email to admin, but I haven't heard anything.

Mmmm... yeah, they must be busy. I sent an email about a month ago, haven't heard back... so I sent another email asking for confirmation that they'd eventual look at my request, but I haven't heard about that either.

Just being patient.

Good luck. I think this guys cache hiding priveledges should be yanked.

Jamie

7.4k · July 2, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

I sent an email to admin, but I haven't heard anything.

Just to clarify, do you mean that you sent a mail to Jeremy (the Geocaching.com owner and webmaster), or one of admins (of which there are several)?

Jeremy is the one who handles issues of account abuse and the like. The admins are involved in cache acceptance, archiving, etc. I know that Jeremy is very busy and gets a LOT of mail, so be patient!

Moun10Bike's Geocaching Pages

20.7k · July 2, 2002

I actually sent an email to an admin who replied that he would forward the issue to Jeremy.

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