Can I place a cache without a GPSr?

June 9, 2003

How vital is it to give accurate coordinates? Can a cache be placed with approximate lat/long from a map, with good directions given in the notes - the directions would get you to within the same sort of distance as normal GPS accuracy would?

At the moment there is only one cache on the island where I live, and the only way to attract more players here is to place more caches. However, I don't have a GPSr and it's a Catch 22 because I'm not going to invest in one unless it all takes off!

Can I do this, or would I have to go my own way with my own website instead?

Obviously, as soon as someone with a GPSr finds the cache, they can supply the precise coordinates - so there's not much lost in the long run.

Any thoughts? Thanks

June 9, 2003

As a rule of thumb the cache approvers won't approve a cache submitted without accurate coords. In the dark ages of the sport we had someone submit virtual caches consisting of the peaks of mountains in his state, and challenged people to climb them. Map coordinates can be inacurate, or use a different coordinate system leading to inaccuracies. There was so much room for error, and danger, that it began the precedent of not accepting cache submissions unless the cache hider had obtained coords with a GPS.

In your case I'd recommend purchasing an inexpensive basic GPS, or borrowing one from a boat owner, and using it to place your cache. If you purchase the GPS you'll find yourself taking it on holiday off the island and finding caches. It won't be money wasted.

erik - geocaching.com admin

June 9, 2003

Join Geocaching -

The sport where YOU are the search engine.

A GPS device and a hunger for adventure are all you need for high tech treasure hunting. Here you can find the latest caches in your area, how to hide your own cache, and information on how to get started in this fun and exciting sport. - from the home page

1.6k · June 9, 2003

I knew a guy who found his first 25 caches without a GPS, and it seems common for people to try. I think erik does as well.

But hiding them requires one.

Unless you happen to place one a specific distance away from a known and verified survey (that is accurate to WGS84 standards), and then project the exact coordinate using an online tool, you can't hope to be accurate enough for most folks liking.

It's bad enough that error can be about 15m for some folks at times.

canadazuuk

38.2k · June 9, 2003

Finding, sure. Hiding, no.

"Au pays des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois"

June 9, 2003

Reminds me of a local cacher who didn't have a a GPS. He'd hide the cache and use map coords. In the cache discription he'd say something like "GPS wasn't working too well this day, please provide coords when you find this cache". This would be followed by a very detailed description of where the cache was. When someone with a GPS found the cache, and gave the correct coords, he'd modify the coords on the cache page and remove the detailed description.

There you go: How to hide a Geocache without a GPS.

Every hour spent geocaching is added to the end of your life

[This message was edited by boreal jeff & sons on June 09, 2003 at 06:24 AM.]

June 9, 2003

quote:
There you go: How to hide a Geocache without a GPS.

I should have thought of that! Bit late for me now, if I try it they'll smell a rat, LOL.

Ah well, there goes another potential hobby. I'll just enjoy the nice unusual bits of the island with people I already know then. Pity it couldn't be more flexible but if that's the way you all want it, fine.

"you can't hope to be accurate enough for most folks liking." - even as I said "the directions would get you to within the same sort of distance as normal GPS accuracy would?"

Does this really matter in this instance, considering that everyone looking over here would be newcomers?

Do you really think I'm going to spend 100 quid or more just to try and kickstart this thing in an island well known for its apathy? When I never get lost or have any other possible use for a GPSr? (this island is 5 x 9 miles - know it all very well!)

How typical. It's supposed to be hobby, a FUN thing to do and after only 3 years it's clogged up with rules!!

I was all fired up with enthusiasm, and now it's dashed. Maybe it wasn't for me after all. How will I ever know...

*sigh*.

[This message was edited by Iwuzere on June 09, 2003 at 06:57 AM.]

1.4k · June 9, 2003

I hid my first couple of caches before I bought a GPS. I used a map to get it close, then arranged for another cacher to be the "first finder" and to supply me with adjusted coordinates.

I actually prefer to find caches without my GPSr. I only use it about 1/3 of the time.

1.6k · June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Iwuzere:

Ah well, there goes another potential hobby. Goodbye all. I'll just enjoy the nice unusual bit of the island on my own then. Pity it couldn't be more flexible but if that's the way you all want it, fine.

Seeya

Huh? Why not try finding a few caches (without a GPS) to see what's going on here first anyway. It is generally accepted that someone ought to have found a few caches before hiding any, and not that that is an ironclad rule, but if you're not interested in finding any caches, then to what degree are you making this a hobby?

No offence intended, but you sound like some of our (few) disgruntled ex-enthusiasts.

canadazuuk

24.7k · June 9, 2003

You know I know the home page says you need a GPS but you don't need one to find it and I really don't think you need one to place it.

A letterbox hybrid is a perfect example. Letterboxes have these strange directions like "Start at the cemetary gate and walk 100 paces north, from there..."

Anyone within 300' of a landmark can find the landmark and you can do better than that off of a topo or an arial photograph. However when you are going to be the exception you had better plan on being a good exception.

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

1.6k · June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Iwuzere:

How typical. It's supposed to be hobby, a FUN thing to do and after only 3 years it's clogged up with rules!!

What?

I guess you have no caches you could find based on your description of where you are. You must be reading our many wonderful forum pages...

canadazuuk

June 9, 2003

This guy is hilarious. He get's all pouty that he cannot hide a cache without a GPS, when a GPS is like, hmmmmm, let's see, about 99.99% of what the game is about as far as hiding caches. Then he disses us, and this site by saying there are too many rules, and that he'll move on. Wow, I'll miss whatever stimulating cache that a newbie who can't afford a GPS could bring to the game.

See ya, don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.

Make a sanity check.

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
Huh? Why not try finding a few caches (without a GPS) to see what's going on here first anyway.

..

if you're not interested in finding any caches, then to what degree are you making this a hobby?

There is only one cache on the island so far - which I've found was a fair old trek for this unfit slob, and I didn't want go scrabbling about in all the bracken that has sprung up since the cache was planted.

I'd like to place some more, of my own, to see if I can stimulate more interest here, but if they wouldn't be 'approved' I'll just give up now.

Thanks for replying.

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TMAN264:
This guy is hilarious. He get's all pouty that he cannot hide a cache without a GPS, when a GPS is like, hmmmmm, let's see, about 99.99% of what the game is about as far as hiding caches. Then he disses us, and this site by saying there are too many rules, and that he'll move on. Wow, I'll miss whatever stimulating cache that a newbie who can't afford a GPS could bring to the game.

See ya, don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.

Thanks for your kind comments.

If people can find caches without a GPS, is it really that vital when hiding them?! I'm not talking about vast homeland USA here, I'm on a tiny rock in the middle of the English Channel with 100,000 people clinging to it.

I don't believe I've 'dissed' anyone, forgive me if I'm crabby (6 week old baby disturbing my sleep patterns somewhat), just saying how this rule seems a little harsh to a newcomer. (Especially if people have done this in the past, claiming that GPS wasn't working well that day, etc.)

Forgive me for pleading for a bit of flexibility for a region of the world where your game hasn't yet taken off.

"Wow, I'll miss whatever stimulating cache that a newbie who can't afford a GPS could bring to the game." - You'll never know what you're missing if you never come to Jersey.

"See ya, don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out." LOL. Pouty on, dude!

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Iwuzere:
Ah well, there goes another potential hobby. I'll just enjoy the nice unusual bits of the island with people I already know then. Pity it couldn't be more flexible but if that's the way you all want it, fine.

Ummmmm, it's the way it has evolved so I guess it is the way it is wanted. Yeah, we all agree that too many rules would be a bad thing but it is important to hold to the ones that are there. The difference between rules and guidelines is that rules are defined and that is the only way to avoid constant confrontation. An unfortunate effect of 'rules' is that sometimes we fall on the wrong side of them but that is the way of things. We need to accept that if we are to have any kind of form to this pastime. If the rules can be bent for one then they can be bent for all and they might as well not exist at that point. Sorry if that seems hard but if geocaching is to continue then it has to be this way.

quote:
How typical. It's supposed to be hobby, a FUN thing to do and after only 3 years it's clogged up with rules!!
I was all fired up with enthusiasm, and now it's dashed. Maybe it wasn't for me after all. How will I ever know...

You were fired up with enthusiasm for something but it was not geocaching!!! The definition of geocaching was there before you became 'fired up'. Your enthusiasm seems to lean more toward letterboxing.

quote:
Do you really think I'm going to spend 100 quid or more just to try and kickstart this thing in an island well known for its apathy?

Is apathy catching?

Only nuts eat squirrels,

Snake

June 9, 2003

quote:
Do you really think I'm going to spend 100 quid or more just to try and kickstart this thing in an island well known for its apathy?

I hear there are quite a few ghosts in your area (Jersey, GB Channel Isles), at least I just saw a movie documenting such things (The Others). Maybe a virtual cache for virtual people? Spectral coords?

June 9, 2003

I have a similar problem. I am thinking of taking up skydiving, but there are not very many places to do it around here. I don't want to invest in a parachute unless it "takes off". Would any of you geocachers out there mind if I try it without one?

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
I have a similar problem. I am thinking of taking up skydiving, but there are not very many places to do it around here. I don't want to invest in a parachute unless it "takes off". Would any of you geocachers out there mind if I try it without one?

I know what you mean - I have been trying the 'hang gliding with no hang glider' variant - running down all these hills trying to lift off. dadgum, if I can get off the ground I will buy a hang glider next week!

Only nuts eat squirrels,

Snake

1.6k · June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
I don't want to invest in a parachute unless it "takes off". Would any of you geocachers out there mind if I try it without one?

Hey, where did you come from?

If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving...

canadazuuk

June 9, 2003

Apology accepted Iwuzere, I am moving on. Was you are suggesting really does fall in the letterboxing realm.

Dammit it Seneca, I was going to do a similar missing equipment post, but you beat me too it. I guess I won't be entering my 1988 Cadillac in the Michigan 500 this year.

Make a sanity check.

June 9, 2003

TMAN264: "Apology accepted" - I wasn't aware I really had, the 'forgive me' was just a figure of speech, but hey, *grin*

"What you are suggesting really does fall in the letterboxing realm." - I don't think so. Letterboxing doesn't appeal. I've no problem with GPS and lat and long coordinates, I just find that using a map is a lot easier than buying a GPS, right now. If others are perfectly happy searching without a GPS, why do I need one for the moment?

If I give an approximate position and note that in the information given, just who is it hurting? Nobody's forcing people to look for it. Even if it was MORE of a challenge, isn't that just as good?

I can almost see the point that this whole thing is about GPS, but I've seen it from a different perspective perhaps. To me, it's the coordinates that are important, and GPS could just as easily be some other nav system, even DECCA!

Isn't the fun in the search? Would my caches be any less fun without an electronic gadget in your hand? Even if so, what I'm proposing is only a stopgap until someone would kindly provide the proper fix.

I really can't see what the fuss is about. Any further comments, anyone?

June 9, 2003

Sure-- stiff upper lip, nose in air, straight back, rigid inflexibility--typical symptoms of a pole stuck in the usual place.

Borrow a GPS (unless boaters are beneath you) and be on with it!

38.2k · June 9, 2003

quote:
If others are perfectly happy searching without a GPS, why do I need one for the moment?

Its a very small group of geocachers who don't use a GPS to find caches. I know of two out of the many thousands of geocachers who do it on a consistent basis. That's their choice, but the sport is designed by and for GPS users.

Sometimes it's hard enough to get good coordinates when placing a cache with a GPS. Most geocachers expect to find a cache within 10-40 feet of the posted coordinates. Anything further off than that often generates complaints.

You'd have to be VERY lucky to get that kind of accuracy using maps.

Go ahead and post your caches. But it's going to be hard to "jumpstart" the sport in your area, because what you'll wind up with are a bunch of frustrated newbies, who probably won't be able to find your caches.

"Au pays des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois"

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on June 09, 2003 at 09:19 AM.]

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cachetrotters:
Sure-- stiff upper lip, nose in air, straight back, rigid inflexibility--typical symptoms of a pole stuck in the usual place.

Borrow a GPS (unless boaters are beneath you) and be on with it!

That was really not called for. Prejudicial stereotyping sucks. If I paid any attention to the stereotype for the typical American (as is often described in both Canada and the UK), I would despise all of you (which I do not).

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Sometimes it's hard enough to get good coordinates when placing a cache. Most geocachers expect to find a cache within 10-40 feet of the posted coordinates. Anything further off than that often generates complaints.

You'd have to be VERY lucky to get that kind of accuracy using maps.

Go ahead and post your caches. But it's going to be hard to "jumpstart" the sport in your area, because what you'll wind up with are a bunch of frustrated newbies, who probably won't be able to find your caches.

I think you've missed my point by a good 10-40 feet!

1) The clues would make up for it.

2) It's only a temporary inaccuracy - until someone gives the right numbers!

I wish people try and understand each other before arguing!

June 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Iwuzere:

I think you've missed my point by a good 10-40 feet!

1) The clues would make up for it.

2) It's only a temporary inaccuracy - until someone gives the right numbers!

I love #2. I am going to hide something, but I need somebody to find it so I know where it is.

I agree with the fact you do not need a GPS unit to find caches. But I truly believe you need one to hide a cache, as it is an inherent part of the game.

Your profile shows you have zero finds, so you haven't experienced what it is like to find a cache, therefore you do not have the basics of what a properly hiden cache with co-ords looks like.

Even if it were someone that had a lot of experience in the game, it still wouldn't be different, co-ords need to be included in the description.

I am not disagreeing with your method, if there were a site that had this type of game, it might be fun. But a GPS unit in the hiding of caches is what this game involves.

Make a sanity check.

3.8k · June 9, 2003

Why not contact ADMIN with your problem. Maybe they'll have a suggestion. Maybe they'll approve your cache. I've found them to be quite helpful.

If you decide it's too much trouble, oh well, your loss.

June 9, 2003

TMAN264: "I love #2. I am going to hide something, but I need somebody to find it so I know where it is."

- Argh!!! (bangs head on desk).. Read #1 again!!

"I agree with the fact you do not need a GPS unit to find caches. But I truly believe you need one to hide a cache, as it is an inherent part of the game."

What??! It's MY part of the game (hiding my own cache) so what difference does it make?! If you don't need a GPS to find it, you don't need a GPS to hide it!

"Your profile shows you have zero finds, so you haven't experienced what it is like to find a cache, therefore you do not have the basics of what a properly hiden cache with co-ords looks like."

I really hope this isn't the mentality of the majority here.

"co-ords need to be included in the description."

Which part of temporary are you having trouble with?

Make a sanity check.. please do

I've just seen on the one and only Jersey cache page, that visitors said it was a shame there was only one cache over here! There could very easily be more, showing them even more delights off the beaten track, but if it isn't to be... that's life.

I do hope someone in charge of this thing has time to comment.

3.8k · June 9, 2003

Like I said, why don't you contact them? (ADMIN)

June 9, 2003

You have asked the group what they thought and they have told you. You now have several choices.

You can forget it.
You can wait for geocaching admins to chime in.
You can email contact@geocaching.com and ask. But depending on how busy they are you may or may not get a quick response.
You can go hide the cache, report it on the site, then the admins will tell if it is acceptable or not.

The choice is yours.

8.9k · June 9, 2003

First off, let me say welcome, and I hope that the frustration you're seeing doesn't waiver your intent to play this wonderful game/hobby/activity.

I understand that you intend to give explicit instructions to the people on how to get to the cache for the first few finders, then have the finders tell you what the coordinates are so you can update the page. But it's this way of thinking that has brought so much frustration from the forum readers.

You are using the finders to do the work that is expected from you: to provide the most accurate coordinates available when the cache is listed. By not using a GPS, you are providing poor coordinates, and relying on the good nature of others. What happens if someone gives you REALLY bad coordinates?

GPS units are fairly cheap in the realm of electronics. Used ones on EBay are even cheaper. And heck, there's a whole Garage Sale section in the forums devoted toward getting people together to buy and sell used GPSs.

If you're going to hide a box without accurate coordinates, and use clues to find it, that's a letterbox. Hiding a cache expecting others to use their GPS, IMHO, requires that you show good faith by using a GPS in the most accurate way possible to secure good coordinates. Maps alone, cannot sufficiently provide the accuracy you need.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

8.9k · June 9, 2003

There is one other option: provide coordinates for a well-documented position. A lighthouse, a geographical marker. Sometimes these have extremely accurate coordinates.

Then create an "offset" cache - which are quite common. Start at the well-documented position and create the cache by having them go 400 feet at 302° or whatever. That's perfectly acceptable, IMO.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

22k · June 9, 2003

Hey, I used play that game where you looked for something armed only with a map. It was called driving through a big city. I got tried of playing it so I moved on to the next level, I got myself a GPSr and joined Geocache. I don't think I would be interested in going back.

[This message was edited by Team X40 on June 09, 2003 at 12:12 PM.]

June 9, 2003

Pros - wants to create more caches in a beautiful area.

- seems enthusiactic about the game in general

Cons - Cannot read rules

- doesn't grasp the SIMPLE concept that GPS units are what the majority of the players of this game use to find caches, therefore they (we) need the co-ords.

- too cheap to buy a GPS unit

- wants others to do his/her job

- is an inexperienced cacher (0 finds), yet wants to revolutionize the game

- very insulting person

Let me see if you can understand this if I put it other terms. I have been invited to play golf in the British Open. I show up with a duffle bag containing a rake, a billiards cue, and a bowling ball at the first tee. They won't let me play. Why?

I was going to let it go, but you keep insulting me, so let the arrows fly.

Make a sanity check.

June 9, 2003

Iwuzere, Makes no difference what you think of those who have tried (at the start of this and through out it) to answer your basic question. What you are trying to do is letterboxing with an add on. If you want to go letterboxing then do so. If your clues are going to be good enough to find the caches then why change them later for numbers? Just leave out that step and be a letterboxer.

The group has answered your question in many and various ways. What more do you want? Don't be surprised if you are getting rude comments when you won't accept the answers coz they are not what you want them to be.

TMANs comment regarding your inexperience and your desire to change the whole nature of the game is well made. Most of the people on here have tens and even hundreds of caches found to their credit. If you are not prepared to go with the judgement of such people then perhaps this is not for you. Perhaps you need to do as you suggested at the top of this thread - "Can I do this, or would I have to go my own way with my own website instead?"

Only nuts eat squirrels,

Snake

June 9, 2003

Hey I like the idea, and since we aren't going to be using any of these electronic devices then we shouldn't use computers or the internet to post it.

We can draw a crude map with "X" marking the spot, then place it in a bottle and throw it into the water.

Would this be considered littering? not if it was for the good of the sport

:&gt

4.7k · June 9, 2003

i think we're getting some of the issues tangled.

issue 1) is a GPS really necessary? well, yes. waiting for someone else to provide the required information is kind of cheesy. it would not be cheesy to ask somebody to find the coordinates for you. this is not manipulation, and it's not cheating your responsibility. this could be done before the cache hits the site's posting. many cachers get their locations field tested for whatever reason.

issue 2)is what you're proposing really a geocache? from the way you seem to want to do it, it sounds more like a letterbox. i'm aware you are not enthusiastic about letterboxing, but each sport has its own set of rules, and if you're not playing by them, then you're playing something else.

i don't think it really would be a letterbox hybrid; my inderstanding of those is that they are geocaches that contain letterbox-style stamps but are otherwise more like geocaches. please correct me if i'm wrong on this; i have read the guidelines, but i think i remember a proposed change. i'd like to know what the correct information is.

issue 3)should you take up an activity that you are already considering quitting? that one has to be up to you, but if you already think the current guidelines are too restrictive, you may not enjoy this.

issue 4)is it acceptable to be snooty to people? no. it happens sometimes. even when people are doing their best.

go ahead and buy a GPS. you'll find plenty of things to do with it. people WILL come find your cache. you'll probably end up going to others.

congratulations on the child. sorry about the sleep.

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

1k · June 9, 2003

Why not just contact the person who has hidden the one and only other cache on the island and work together as a team to spread the word on the island???

Oh yes, Congrats on the new arrival!!

June 9, 2003

great idea... ask the other guy to help!

here's another: buy a GPSr, place the cache, then return it!

I also like Markwell's idea. Find a spot that has defined coords, such as a benchmark or the UK equivelant, then lead them to the spot in other ways.

It might also be an interesting exercise to find a topo map for your spot, determine the lat/long from the map, then translate for different datum. I'm not even sure if this can be done, but since software can switch, I'm guessing there's a mathematical formula somewhere.

Oh, one more: rent a car with a GPS in it, drive as close to your location as possible, then give the lat/long for the parking lot.

As for the opinions & tone of responses you're getting in this topic, allow for the following mitigating circumstances:

1. electronic correspondence is often harsher than face-to-face, as people cannot convey context as easily (also people are freer to be rude, much as they are in their cars)

2. when venturing into a new community, it's usually wisest to listen a while and pick up the vibes & general context of the group before challenging anyone, even if you're 100% correct in what you're saying

3. you yourself may appear ruder than you intend in your posts. Remember that you have the context of your intent in your head, and we do not. It seems that nearly all misunderstandings & disagreements stem from a simple difference of opinion as to what was said & meant. Electronic conversation merely increases the chance for miscommunication.

That said, welcome!

June 10, 2003

I'd swear I've looked for some caches hidden without a GPS and it isn't fun. I found one almost 100' off that several others couldn't find (I can't imagine why) and someone else posted the coordinates that were almost exactly the same as mine (within .001' on Lat and the same on Lon). I do have to say that the trees were pretty thick so that might account for some of the error.

Why don't you buy a used Mag 315 or a Meridian Green. They're great units and will get you started at not a lot of cost. You could also check the GPS garage sale.

June 10, 2003

Right then, one final post, if I may.

timpaula : "you may appear ruder than you intend in your posts"

yes, that must be it!

I set up a lighthearted user name based upon 'I was here' with an avatar I find amusing. I read all the FAQs and spent an age reading all sorts of forum topics. Despite what some here have said, I don't believe my original question is clearly dealt with anywhere. So, I asked my question, in good spirits. I thought it was entirely reasonable, and I ended it with a Thanks. (the bit about having to go my own way was a bit hyperthetical - I'm not sure I'd bother)

So far so good, I thought. The first replies were dismissive, but hardly the Official Line, so I persevered, a bit disappointed with the negativity. My second post started with a LOL, and although it may look bad (I must admit!) it really wasn't anything more than mild disappointment, ending with a world-weary sigh.

It was worse to start with, so I edited it.

Next, all hell breaks loose when TMAN264 makes no effort at all to understand my position. He was rude and turns out to be arrogant and dismissive of 'newbies' - hardly a great welcome. Still, I'm used to that in other hobbies. A minority are sometimes so proud of their own achievements that they look down their noses at lesser mortals. Sad, but usually I try to leave them to it when I can summon up the self restraint. Sleep deprivation may not have helped here!

Next I admit I'm an unfit slob and thank people for replying, again I'm not sure if I've let myself down here yet.. and I gently take the mick out of TMAN264 with "Pouty on, dude".

I wouldn't say I'd lost it.

Next comes a load of taking-the-**** back at me, but still I keep my cool, making light of TMAN264's wrong assumption that I had anything to genuinely apologise for. I asked for further comments.

Next, some unwarranted abuse flung at me. This was really starting to be unbelievable. People simply couldn't understand what I think is a totally reasonable request, or they simply can't be bothered to read what I'm saying and understand. My frustration finally surfaced with "I wish people (would) try and understand each other before arguing!"

Back comes TMAN264 still missing the point, and to my amusement seeming to say that I couldn't possibly know how to do something as trivial as hiding a small box. LOL. Is getting late in the day now, and this has worn me out. I express my frustration with a fairly restrained "(bangs head on desk)". I could lose it here, but after a mild rebuke to TMAN264 I STILL appeal for sensible comment, and head home for the evening.

This morning I find better replies, thank goodness. Apart from TMAN264 yet again being rather nasty, saying I can't read rules (show me where my first question is dealt with, PLEASE), I'm too cheap (of course I am, 150 quid would be far better spent elsewhere at the moment, what do you expect?!), and apparently *I'm* very insulting and want to change the game having just joined it! What a laugh. This guy simply cannot see my reasoning.

Next, more abuse, and Missing Of The Point.

Listen, PLEASE. I don't want to do letterboxing! I want to help GeoCaching to take off here, but I'm not going to spend until it does. If it's clearly stated what the reality is, it's up to the next newcomer over here to decide whether they want to help or not. It's not 'unfair' on them. If this doesn't happen they will still only have one cache over here!! Is this too difficult to understand or am going mad?!

It's not letterboxing, I just want a small bit of help placing more caches. Caches that would, fairly rapidly, BECOME TRUE GEOCACHES, NOT LETTERBOXES!!!!!!

I will try and contact the placer of 'Jersey number One' and see if I can enthuse him into finding some of my caches with approximate locations. If so, all well and good, maybe we'll get somewhere. I assume that he's looking forward to more caches over here too. We'll see.

If not, as I said, time to give up for a while. Thanks to those of you who have been helpful, and ta for the congrats. Only got up once last night .. but still 'cream crackered' (rhyming slang)

Cheers.

June 10, 2003

Hey if Geocaching takes off on Jersey people (ie some of the 100k residents) are going to be buying GPSrs yes? So you take a walk down St Helier High Street and visit some of the yacht chandlers and ask them if they are willing to hire or loan you a demo unit so you can place some caches. You then set up a simple web site say JerseyGeocaching.com, make sure it's listed on all the search engines and have it consist of two simple pages - one that directs you to the shop that very kindly loaned you the GPSr and one that directs you to Geocaching.com where they can find and log their caches. Simple. Also email everyone who has found the one cache on the island (and the placer of course) and set up a meet in a local pub to discuss how you can take the sport forward. And be prepared for some walking, because a lot of really cruel people like me plant caches that involve long walks and hills because that's why we do geocaching. But most of all have fun!

Lizzzzzzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Why is it that when you're out for a walk carrying a map everyone asks if you're lost?

June 10, 2003

Thanks Liz, but I hope it doesn't come to that! I doubt they'd lend me any, really.

BTW everyone, my other reason for wanting to delay spending on GPS, is this new EGNOS thing. I'd rather wait until any unit I buy can use it, for more accuracy. Or have I missed something, and all units will work with it anyway?!

As another point, I can't help wondering if EGNOS with 1m accuracy will spoil things? If you can just keep going until you're RIGHT BY the cache - does that make it all too easy?

Cheers

June 10, 2003

I cannot believe this guy, when you take up a new sport you need to get the proper equipment to be able to participate in that sport.

For example if you take up basketball then you will need a basketball (or a friend with one) and a rim somewhere, and to really enjoy it you need others to play with and against.

If you take up boating as a hobby then you would need to buy or rent a boat in order to enjoy it.

So let me be blunt (since it seems you are too dense to understand otherwise) if you want to geocache then buy the GPS, if you wait until all the new devices are out then you will wait forever since there is always new and better devices coming out.

Heck if it makes you feel better then hide the dadgum cache, and don't be surprised if nobody seeks it out, I know I wouldn't waste my time with one like it.

June 10, 2003

More abuse?

While I can see what you're saying, you need to think it through. If I turned up at an EXISTING cycle club with a heavy old bike (no gears) I'd expect to be laughed at.

If, however, there wasn't even a club to start with, I'd by trying to find other cyclists to form a club before I spent tons on a proper lightweight 21-gear racing bike.. with no-one to race against!

yes?

"Heck if it makes you feel better then hide the dadgum cache"

Calm down... the problem would be, that I couldn't get it 'approved' to show up here.

"and don't be surprised if nobody seeks it out"

No loss there, surely? Without my efforts perhaps there will still be only one cache in the island for a while, if I get to plant some they'll have a choice. Just one finder giving me the position and the whole issue is over, it's then a real geocache. I'm staggered that this is a problem for some people!

"I know I wouldn't waste my time with one like it."

Are you having a bad day?

This seems odd. If you can walk straight up to a cache with WAAS accuracy and find it with no effort it's worth doing, whereas getting to the right area and following a clue or two and sudddenly it's a waste of time?! I have to wonder why you bother at all!

June 10, 2003

Just a thought Iwuzere,

Is there a Dixons over there? They have a no quibble money back in 14 days thing I believe. You could buy a GPS, place the cache, and return the GPS all in a day.

Alternativly, is anyone going there on holiday this summer? Why can't people help the guy out instead of kicking him?

I think it's completely reasonable for someone to not go out and buy all the kit first. The parachuting and hang gliding analogies are wrong. You will not find many people in the world that bought either a parachute or hang glider for their first jump/flight.

You can't get experience of caching without caches and you can't borrow a GPS if you don't know someone who has one. Catch 22 (or should that be cache 22)

I reckon your best bet is to do a couple of offset caches as suggested earlier. The coords of a carpark can be very rough and I've seen plenty of caches like that.

Don't take the attitudes of people on these forums as indicative of all people in the game.

3.1k · June 10, 2003

If you'll review this thread, you'll see that no one was nasty with you until your second post which, intentionally or not, comes off as condescending, telling us this clearly isn't a fun activity anymore, and that we foolhardy mortals will now never enjoy the fine fruits of your heavenly island. Prior to that, you were given simple and frank responses to your question, which you shouldn't have asked if you weren't willing to accept "no" for an answer. That is why you are receiving the sort of response you are, not because you're a newbie or trying to find alternative ways to play.

That said, I sincerely hope that you will stop concentrating on the insults here and consider the three or four viable options people have posted here and not abandon your interest.

June 10, 2003

Thanks Icenians

Cache 22 - LOL, like it!

I'm still having trouble with the concept of offsets, with vague directions, being any better than what I was suggesting, though!

No, no Dixons, Argos, Comet or anything remotely like it, over here.

"Don't take the attitudes of people on these forums as indicative of all people in the game."

yes, there is similar unpleasantness in Amateur Radios forums too, so I'm quite familiar with it.

Cheers

June 10, 2003

Iwuzere, it's not that I don't encourage newbies in the sport, it's that I find it offensive that a newbie thinks that he/she knows so much about Geocaching that they can make their own rules.

An example would be if I were to go on the ham radio boards you mentioned, and start trying re-invent some method of the process.

I understand that it is a new hobby where you live, but someone has to start it, so maybe you should step up to the plate, and buy a GPS unit. You could be the pioneer geocacher on the Jersey islands.

I truly do not appreciate your comments about me. Yes, I was rude. But I also think your reasoning is SO off the charts, rudeness is an acceptable reply, especially after you keep pushing on with the laziness of your idea. And I know you won't believe this, but I REALLY do understand what you are asking. You just don't like the answer that others have given you.

I love this sport, and have help start 2 other cachers start by taking them out on hunts. I really do hope you can get geocaching going in your area, it sounds like a great place to be.

Make a sanity check.

June 10, 2003

Thanks for the reply TMAN264. I'm glad we're being civil today, because let's face it, rudeness is something that really ought to be avoided if possible. I've found myself being VERY rude to people when I thought they deserved it, but really it's not something I look back on with any pride.

I'm not trying to make my own rules though, just bend them slightly for a SHORT WHILE to get things going. Besides, I don't believe The Rules were set in stone by Moses, but evolved over time to meet peoples' requirements. Well, here I am with a new requirement. It's up to democracy whether rules can be changed - often they can over time (i.e. Formula 1 racing, the first example off the top of my head. Or how about Ammendments to The Constitution, etc).

Anyway, we'll see. A friend of mine might be able to borrow a GPS off another friend, so all's well that ends well.

Cheers

Can I place a cache without a GPSr?

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