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Unofficial statement about STATS


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quote:
Originally posted by Chris&Cindy:

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:

Whew! You had me worried there for a minute. I thought I was in the heavyweight tv forum.

quote:

Hehehe, actually, that's why I use the Finland reference, cause I like Divine.... the cacher, not the former heavyweight transvestite.....



Heavyweight transvestite? OMG I am not sleeping tonight with those images in my head LOL icon_biggrin.gif


Here's some more pictures to take to bed with you.icon_biggrin.gifWarning, some of the contents of that site could be disturbing to someone.

 

Breaktrack: You're da man!icon_biggrin.gif

 

To keep this topic on the rail I'd like to point out there's also other kind of 'non-competitive' stats that would be neat to have on gc.com, like caches per square area broken down by state/country, caches per capita/members broken down by state/country etc. Preferably sortable like in Seti@Home's country stats. And yeah, I still give my vote - for what it's worth - for similar personal stats Dan had.

 

As we also have discussed about things that should be free for all gc.com members and on the other hand for premium/charter members, IMO these 'extra stats' or 'for fun stats' could be available to paying members as 'added value' for their money. I do agree that the game should be free for everyone, but the stats requested are not necessary for being able to search caches. I know many non-paying members won't like this suggestion as Dan was free for everyone. But if people insist that gc.com should build stats for them, I think gc.com is justified to serve them as a premium membership feature. Everyone else is still able to log to the site, download waypoints, print cache reports and log their finds. I.e. play the game.

 

My 2 Eurocents worth (= 0.021718 USD with today's exchange rate)icon_biggrin.gif

 

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

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It seems to me that the solution (if stats are implemented) to it immediately becoming a competition would be to make it more like Dan's site... Instead of linking directly to it on the site, announce it on the forum when it's ready for use, and from then on make people find it if they want it...

 

I didn't know about Dan's site until a few days before it died, and it was going extremely slowly, so I didn't get to play too much with it, but it was neat to see where people were at, and although I am quite competitive by nature, I didn't see stats turning geocaching into a competitive sport for me, mostly because I'm excited enough about it to go out at every possible moment to find a new cache anyways.

 

If something does happen with it, another solution to those who are going to whine about whether benchmarks/virtuals/locationless caches should count might be to have checkboxes for each type of cache on the stats retrieval page, so there's an option to see the overall stats of what each individual thinks "counts".

 

I see stats as more of a curiosity satisfier than competition builder.

 

A great serial killer once said, "Beauty is only skin deep. Trust me, I've looked..."

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Why doesn't someone take over where Dan left off? There are plenty of people with the knowledge here and i'm sure they could find the time to do it.

 

Like I stated, I don't have a problem with it, I would not opt for it if it were a feature on this site, but that is my opinion. As BrianSnat stated about people sneaking a peek, well yeah I probably would. It may be a large undertaking right now for Jeremy or something that would be on the backburner. Something to add to the list, but I may be wrong.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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quote:
Originally posted by Divine:


http://www.dreamlandnews.com/divine/index.html some more pictures to take to bed with you.icon_biggrin.gif _Warning_, some of the contents of that site could be disturbing to someone.

 

Breaktrack: You're da man!icon_biggrin.gif

 

My 2 Eurocents worth (= 0.021718 USD with today's exchange rate)icon_biggrin.gif

 

Thanks Divine, back at ya!

 

Several ideas seem worth merit here. A seperate page like Dan's was is a great suggestion, and having someone with the skills necessary to maintain it and the bandwidth to support it, would be great as well.

 

Look, Jeremy, take over Dan's page, improve it, and make it available. I'll be the very first one to up my dues to $35.00, what do ya think? Make it a log on site, paying members only, etc, etc, whatever you think appropriate. The basic work is already done, he's already offered to allow someone else to take it over if they wish, seems like a great solution all the way around. Then those that wish ti partake may, those that don't, won't.

 

Well, back to the Blaster battle... 300+ computers to patch in the Detention Bureau alone and there are two of us patching.... sigh.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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Several ideas seem worth merit here. A seperate page like Dan's was is a great suggestion, and having someone with the skills necessary to maintain it and the bandwidth to support it, would be great as well.

 

I know of one person that is ready, willing and able to take this role on. All he needs is Jeremy's blessing.

 

GF

 

********************************************

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

 

logo_small.jpg

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I like to be able to compare my progress with others, especially those in my home area. It's nice to see where the top cachers are (BruceS/CCCooper) in relation to those in my area as well.

 

It's not a competition thing for me. The competition is hiding containers better than the next guy.

 

Having readily available stats (like those on Dan's site) is great for comparison purposes.

What's the difference between comparison and competition? There is no prize for having your name at the top of the stats list. Only those that are interested in comparing stats actually visit the stats page.

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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You know, I stand behind my "opinion" now. They aren't for me. Just like using a PDA and downloading waypoints either. Now look at me...i'm a mess...I got cables coming out of the back of my computer to my GPS and my pocket pc...making pocket queries for a cache event for tomorrow...uploading them...uploading maps of Bridgeport Ct to my pocket pc, exporting the the GPX file to the pocket pc map program...geez!

 

Ok, now I wannaa see some stats...where are they? Why aren't they around any more? Why isn't Jeremy doing it? lol.... icon_biggrin.gif

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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Stated differently (for the geeks among us):

 

stats <> competition

 

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

I like to be able to compare my progress with others, especially those in my home area. It's nice to see where the top cachers are (BruceS/CCCooper) in relation to those in my area as well.

 

It's not a competition thing for me. The competition is hiding containers better than the next guy.

 

Having readily available stats (like those on Dan's site) is great for comparison purposes.

What's the difference between comparison and competition? There is no prize for having your name at the top of the stats list. Only those that are interested in comparing stats actually visit the stats page.

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ihazeltine/bandbass.gif


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Has anyone else noticed that Jeremy, Heidi, and several other of TPTB have deleted their finds from their profiles? (You can still view them by searching for caches found by username.)

 

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

 

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

 

.

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OK, I read enough to realize something.

 

1) Place everyone in the queue for stats, but if you haven't opted-in, you won't even be aware they are available.

 

2) If you want to opt-in, do so. If not, don't.

 

Using a scraper like Dan was using pulled all relevant (at least as much as could be) information from the site. Those of you who wanted to look, could. Those of you who didn't, didn't.

This is a fairly simple solution to what you have all been discussing. Check the box to be able to get the stats page link shown on your profile. Don't check the box, no link!

 

At least with this, you who are interested, get your full level of info, even if the "real" #1 isn't opted in!

 

I can go anywhere!! ... (if my wife lets me)

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quote:
Originally posted by drat19:

Seems to me if the "real #1" in your state isn't opted in, then he/she isn't part of the "competition", and thus is not relevant to said competition, you think?...


 

True they would not be part of the competition, but that's like winning gold at the Olympics because your nemisis broke their leg in the trials. Sure the gold is great but it will be tarnished knowing that your victory wasn't truly tested agasint the one who mattered.

 

Thats my take on it anyway. People who don't want to compete will probably want to be able to opt out though and that will take some of the fun from those who do. The nemisis could be out there and you will never know...

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quote:
I don't give a rat's a$$ who is ahead or behind of me.

 

This suggests an obvious compromise. Create a stats page that is made up of all cachers whether they opt in or not, BUT only display the name of the cacher if they opt in. E.g.,

 

AREA RANKINGS

 

Name Finds

--------------------------------------

1. southdeltan 1.345 zillion

2. <anonymous> 1.244 zillion

...

23234. <anonymous> 9,943

23235. garmini 5

 

This would give the stats junkies the numbers they crave while respecting the privacy of those who don't want to be entered into a competition without their consent.

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quote:
Originally posted by Team Mixster:

anonymous if you wish, I like that... still shows there's someone above/below you but if they don't care to let you know, they don't. icon_wink.gif What say you Jeremy?


I think if there is going to be time spent to develop a leaderboard, then it should be done right the first time, with all users included.

 

Having holes in the stats or anonymous entries is pretty silly if you ask me. Why not include all of the information and those who couldn't care less don't have to feel obligated to look at them.

 

At this point, to ease some of my frustration, I might be happy if the totals were restored to the profiles and ''how many months ago'' would be finally fixed to display the actual date a cache was found on, but maybe it's just me who thinks an actual date would provide more accurate information.

 

I think what I miss most about the leaderboard is a feature that was never available here, and that was the ability to type in another users name and see all of their latest logs, both finds and not finds.

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Good grief, anonymous entities in the stats page... give me a break.

 

My entry would be under Breaktrack, not my name, not my home address, no home phone number, no info on what kind of insurance I'm carrying, how many times I've been married, who my weird cousin is, or any other damning information. Any of that is in my profile if I choose to place it there. It is getting a little bit silly now isn't it?

 

The black helicopters will be hovering overhead any time now....sheesh.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:

Has anyone else noticed that Jeremy, Heidi, and several other of TPTB have deleted their finds from their profiles?


No.
]

 

There is something strange going on here. Two days ago, I received an email drawing my attention to the fact that Jeremy's and Hydee's find stats had been revomed from their profiles. Being the curious one that I am, I checked the profile pages and they were missing. I didn't think too much about it at first, then it occured to me that maybee TPTB were setting a physical example for noncompetitive geocaching.

 

The stats were missing from their profiles for at least 48 hours. (I checked several times.)

 

I also notice that Jeremy's bio info is different from last week.

 

Maybe they just like to edit their profiles and change stuff to keep us guessing? Or maybe I'm getting older than I think.

 

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

 

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

 

.

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I know we can say there are no outs and give EVERYONE a gold medal and say everyone is number one, and everyone gets an A+, and everyone is special, because that is how life is, right? Life is like that? There isn't anyone who caches morethen others, Just put 1.56 Trillion in everyones profile. Dump the logs, forget log books, and give everyones ego a h**d j*b.

 

When in doubt...hit it with a big hammer.

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I like the idea of an "official" stats page on Geocaching.com. It would eliminate the need for other sites scraping the data and doing it themselves.

 

Is geocaching competitive? For some, no. For others, yes. There should be options for both groups. It's not like you win a medal or anything. icon_wink.gif

 

I like the idea of listing all cachers on a stats page, with opt-out cachers listed as <anonymous>.

 

Stats are just stats. They do not make the game a competition. Those of us that are competitive will be that way whether we have stats or not. Those that are not competitive won't care if there are stats or not.

 

In order to conserve server workload, static stats files could be generated daily at off-peak times. The stats wouldn't be real-time, but close enough.

 

web-lingbutton.gif ntga_button.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Web-ling:

I like the idea of an "official" stats page on Geocaching.com. It would eliminate the need for other sites scraping the data and doing it themselves.

 

Is geocaching competitive? For some, no. For others, yes. There should be options for both groups. It's not like you win a medal or anything. icon_wink.gif

 

I like the idea of listing all cachers on a stats page, with opt-out cachers listed as <anonymous>.

 

Stats are just stats. They do not make the game a competition. Those of us that are competitive will be that way whether we have stats or not. Those that are not competitive won't care if there are stats or not.

 

In order to conserve server workload, static stats files could be generated daily at off-peak times. The stats wouldn't be real-time, but close enough.


 

I agree kinda. "an "official" stats page on Geocaching.com." is what I would like to see, and I am guessing that it is what most who are asking for stats would like to see as they would be "The Stats".... straight 'from the horses mouth'.

 

As to the <anonymous> thing goes, I can live with it, but that is not what I want to see. One of the main reasons I look at the "stats" for is to see who is "knowledgeable" in an area other than my local area. If I am going on a trip to an area 'I Don't know', I would of in the past, look at the LB to see who was the top several people in the area I was heading. I could then ask then any questions I might have about planning my trip.

 

But... I would gladly take <anonymous> over no stats. I have spent the better part of 100 hours try'n to do a manual 'Local Top 25', and that is NOT the way to go. It is WAY to much work to do by hand.

 

Zahrim....

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night.

Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

 

[This message was edited by Zahrim on August 23, 2003 at 09:07 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Zahrim:

One of the main reasons I look at the "stats" for is to see who is "knowledgeable" in an area other than my local area. If I am going on a trip to an area 'I Don't know', I would of in the past, look at the LB to see who was the top several people in the area I was heading. I could then ask then any questions I might have about planning my trip.


 

WELL SAID! As I mentioned in some other threads, I've been contacted by many folks heading for or passing thru the Miss. Gulf Coast area specifically because the stats indicated I was a leading cacher in the area. Besides the little ego boost (I'm not going to deny that), it was sincerely my pleasure to help folks get oriented and point them in the direction of the kind of caches they might have wanted to go after (like most areas, we have a nice cross-section of quickies, longer hikes, virts, and multi-virts around here). It's very gratifying that the stats (specifically) have made it so that folks know when they're heading for this area, to "contact Dave in Biloxi...he's a good guy and a good cacher". Y'all know in all of your respective areas that that is the case with your local leaders as well...they're not just stats leaders, they're (we're) ambassadors of our sport.

 

In addition, when I was still a newbie over a year ago, I used the leaderboard to learn who the top dogs were at that time, and I picked their brains about the sport and about our area. As time has passed several of these folks have become good, valued personal friends of mine, beyond just the caching which brought us into contact.

 

And it was the state leaderboards that made all this possible. The friendly competition is just a by-product...another fun aspect, and yes, oftentimes a motivational tool. It's a GOOD THING!

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

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I have to agree that without Dan's page it's quite a bit harder to keep track of what's going on and who's doing what. Now you have to dig to find out who's active and who's not.

 

That was one of the most useful things about it. Several people have suggested having a directory of geocachers here by state but TPTB have shot that down several times. I'm not sure why, it would make locating people a lot easier. It's already possible to do so. I think that getting to know other geocachers is one of the best parts of the sport. The leaderboards really helped in that aspect.

 

It's also a lot harder to look up archived caches (there are lots of reasons for needing to do this). Sometimes you need to know about archived caches. If you haven't found the cache (or didn't own it), it's hard to locate an archived cache. I used to look through the complete list of caches in MS and the archived caches had a wealth of history behind them.

 

Again, it's not necessarily about who's in what position. The leaderboard had lots of uses.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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quote:

If your cheating to up your numbers, your just cheating yourself.

 

Like what's been said, their is no trophy or award to be on top. It's just a tool to see where everyone is at. Why cry about what someone did wrong, why should you even care? It's not a big deal. Can't we all be mature about it? Maybe not, from what I've seen in the forums lately.

 

GF

 

********************************************

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

 

http://www.chicagogeocaching.com/img/logo_small.jpg


 

The discussions I've had face to face with geocachers on the subject of stats (or most anything else for that matter) have all tended to be mature. The whiners and crybabies all seem to come out when veiled by an avatar in a forum. Just my opinion......

 

As for stats - stats are fun! What's wrong with that? We have had a great time good naturedly ribbing each other on cache logs, at get-togethers, cacheing campouts, etc. At those functions, the whiners and crybabies usually keep to themselves and keep their mouths shut. Why? it's simple - a person would look like a fool throwing a wet blanket on all the fun. And to what purpose? Maybe to satisfy a "purity of the sport" fetish? I don't get it. If you don't want competition - then don't compete! I know for a fact that all of the top cachers in Jacksonville, FL (according to Dan) are all fine friends that help each other find caches to the point of going with other cachers on caches they've already done! Is that some horrifying bit of competition? I don't think so. It was FUN! Did we still compete? yes... I am certain that any of the negatives described for overly competitive cachers (cheating, etc.) would be dealt most harshly by their peers at local events.

 

Anyway... to end my tirade I will put my money where my mouth is. (this should stir up the whiners) I'd be willing to raise my yearly membership to $35 to pay for the code and computer time necessary to implemeent a stats page. I'd really be willing to pay more but I'm trying to purchase a little flame insurance by only adding $5 to keep the cheapskates quiet. Of course - they will want to "opt out" of even $5 more. C'mon guys - we really do have a good deal only paying $30 a year.

 

BTW.... for you flamers out there - how about just flaming me directly through my profile so everyone else doesn't have to read it?

 

Jim

 

Get yo' mama to push the car!

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My own take on this is that the negative connotations of *competitive* geocaching have been overblown. In my little corner of the world there are several active cachers, and it was just plain old FUN to keep tabs on who was finding what, and when. And the *recent logs* list was absolutely invaluable for doing just that. My top two bookmarks are/were Dan's log list page (#1) and GC.com. I think the opt-in solution is a bit silly - the information is already there for all who care to dig for it. Presenting it in summary form as Dan's site did is a convenience, not an invasion of privacy. If you log your finds on line for all the world to see, why would you care if they were catalogued in some way???

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I'm thinking that maybe TPTB don't see the necessity of having stats the same way we do because they are more involved in running the site than actually geocaching. I might be wrong, but if Jeremy was just a geocacher like the rest of us and someone else was running the website, he would probably want to have the stats too. Maybe not for competetiveness, but at least for following the activity of friends.

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I beleive no matter what the decision of Jeremy and the gang is, people aren't going to be happy with it. I think that "having more" is better than "having less". So I would say go ahead and do it. Like others said, the info is out there when you post a find anyway. People can close their eyes as one put it. lol...

 

I would have no problem with it, but I know some will be against it. There's really no identity revealed or anything, no more than there already is. I guess they can take it with a grain of salt. After going to the cache event this weekend and meeting some great folks, many with way more finds and a probably a couple with less than me, I can see where it would be convienant to pull up something real quick where everyone is listed and see where they are at.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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Posters keep mentioning that if I don't want to compete then don't look at the stats. No harm done. Except for the fact that you want me and other premium members to pay for your little competition. Now, suddenly, I am involved and I don't want to be.

 

Also, I WAS a little peeved to see MY stats on DAN'S site. I felt my privacy had been invaded by someone I didn't know. I didn't give him permission to use that info, heck, he never asked!

 

So to those who say no one complained about Dan's stat site, you're wrong. To those who say competition hurts no one, you're wrong.

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quote:
Originally posted by geospotter:

Posters keep mentioning that if I don't want to compete then don't look at the stats. No harm done. Except for the fact that you want me and other premium members to pay for your little competition. Now, suddenly, I am involved and I don't want to be.

 

Also, I WAS a little peeved to see MY stats on DAN'S site. I felt my privacy had been invaded by someone I didn't know. I didn't give him permission to use that info, heck, he never asked!

 

So to those who say no one complained about Dan's stat site, you're wrong. To those who say competition hurts no one, you're wrong.


 

Here's my problem with your post. I'm not looking to flame - just to offer a counterpoint that I hope you would think about.

 

1. I didn't ask YOU or anyone else to pay. I think it's worth more. "I" would pay more for stats.. Quite frankly, compared to other sites - geocaching offers WAY more bang for the buck. $30 a year and that is optional - it's worth $50 a year - even $60 a year TO ME. I'd pay $100 a year to be a SUPER SUPREME DOUBLE PREMIUM CHARTER member if it included lots of nifty extras like detailed stats, personal cache maps, state cache maps, etc.

 

2. Regarding your privacy complaint, I think you should reconsider. You placed your information in the public domain by posting your logs. I see nothing wrong with someone compiling what others have freely made available to the world to see. If privacy is a true issue you must go all the way and remove all public references to yourself and not place any more. You can't straddle the fence on this issue. e.g. you can't go to a nude beach and then complain because someone took your picture.

 

3. I can't see what harm was done to you? Sure you're peeved because Dan didn't ask to include you on the stats page but that is the way of the world. Did you really expect him to? I don't mean this to be sarcastic at all. There are things that others do that make me mad but I am in charge of my own emotions. I decide if I will let it hurt me. I decide if it is worth fighting for. In this case, the stats page was a great source of light hearted amusement, friendly ribbing, good natured competition, and personal enjoyment to me and many other cachers in Northeast Florida. It was fun and I miss it. In my opinion it is worth fighting, cajoling, sweet-talking, bribing, etc. for.

 

Again, this is not meant to be a flame - just wanting you anti-competition types to see the value in some good clean fun and re-think what the negatives are. The only negatives I see are more work for Jeremy. That is why I brought up the money issue.

 

Jim

 

BTW.... for those of you who are saying why doesn't HE just kick in some extra money to the site. I do that in the form of purchasing a pretty good amount of loot from Groundspeak businesses and partners. I love this sport and want to support it. I'm looking forward to Jeremy making the Forbes 400 and I intend to help him get there.

 

Can I get an AMEN!?

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You may want to read the "Terms of Use" here on the site. Here's what it says about "Privacy"..

 

quote:
2. Privacy

Groundspeak will use Your personally identifiable information collected in connection with this Site, including without limitation Your name, e-mail address, or other information unique to You (“Personally Identifiable Information”), in the following ways:

 

(a) Groundspeak may use Personally Identifiable Information to contact You about new caches in Your geographic area; to keep You notified of developments in the geocaching related activities; to give You updates on changes to the Site; and to allow You to log Your cache finds and share Your experiences with other users of the Site.

 

(:) Groundspeak may also use Personally Identifiable Information to statistically analyze usage of the Site; to improve Groundspeak’s product and service offerings; to customize the Site’s content and layout; and to otherwise improve the Site.

 

Groundspeak uses cookies and other types of Site user tracking technology to recognize Site visitors and to customize certain Site features and functions for repeat visitors. Information collected using cookies may be combined with Personal Information but may only be used as described in Section 3 above. Cookies are required in order to log caches on the Site, and disabling the use of cookies may impact some of the Site features.

 

Groundspeak will not sell, rent, or otherwise disclose Personally Identifiable Information to any third party, except: (a) in connection with any merger or acquisition of Groundspeak (or Groundspeak assets), including without limitation any restructuring activity with another legal entity; or as (:D as required by subpoena, search warrant, or other valid legislative or judicial process. Groundspeak may, however, disclose non-personalized, aggregate data to third parties as may be collected and processed in connection with the Site.


 

It's between GC and the others if the info is posted elesewhere. You are supplying the info publicly. It's no invasion of privacy.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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Brian,

 

I didn't say it was an invasion of privacy (legally), I said I felt like my privacy had be invaded.

 

Paintfiction,

 

I didn't take your post as flaming at all. But I would like to respond to each statement made. I am also NOT flaming.

 

quote:
1. I didn't ask YOU or anyone else to pay. I think it's worth more. "I" would pay more for stats..

 

1. You say that it is worth money to you to have the stats available, specifically for you and your friends in Florida. Then why not use that money to create your own site for you and your friends?

 

quote:
2. ...You can't straddle the fence on this issue. e.g. you can't go to a nude beach and then complain because someone took your picture.

 

2. Actually, I CAN complain about someone taking my picture at a nude beach as any number of celebrity lawsuits have proven. But, again, I'm not looking at the LEGAL definition of privacy. I stated that I was "a little peeved" and "felt" that my privacy had been invaded.

 

quote:
3. ... Sure you're peeved because Dan didn't ask to include you on the stats page but that is the way of the world.

 

3. Dan used info about me without my permission. That is NOT the way of the world, it is the way of a few.

 

But...

 

If TPTB decide to include stats then I will go along with their decision, but I will opt out.

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Why should caching be different from other sports or games as far as stats are concerned?

 

Baseball, football, golf, bowling, etc all have plenty of stats.

 

Jeremy stated earlier in this thread - "my golf handicap isn't posted for all to see". Actually if you're in a golf league your handicap is posted for all to see in the clubhouse. Same thing with bowling.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by geospotter:

Posters keep mentioning that if I don't want to compete then don't look at the stats. No harm done. Except for the fact that you want me and other premium members to pay for your little competition. Now, suddenly, I am involved and I don't want to be.

 

Also, I WAS a little peeved to see MY stats on DAN'S site. I felt my privacy had been invaded by someone I didn't know. I didn't give him permission to use that info, heck, he never asked!

 

So to those who say no one complained about Dan's stat site, you're wrong. To those who say competition hurts no one, you're wrong.


 

I've seen more than a few people say that they'd join instantly if there was a leaderboard. You and other premium members would not fund this by yourself. In fact, there are premium members that would welcome this addition. I'm not a programer but the fact that Groundspeak already has all of the data in a DB would make it a lot easier to make a leaderboard. BTW - I am not a premium member yet but I have bought merchandise. Premium membership is not the only way to support this site.

 

As for being 'peeved' because you saw your stats on Dan's site - what's the difference between that and me clicking on your name, then your profile, then your stats page - I can see your totals there and know where I stand against you. Anybody can. The lack of a leaderboard does not prevent competition. They could remove the totals and it wouldn't prevent competition. They would have to make log entries show up up only for the owner and the hider. That wouldn't necessarily stop it (and it'd be incredibly foolish) - because I'm sure lots of people keep track of their own finds.

 

If that's what you mean by competition hurting you (being peeved) I am confused because you supply this information to Groundspeak and the public can view it - including nongeocachers. I see no difference in it being on Dan's site or this one - the info is still the same. The only difference is Dan compiled it fairly neatly for those who were interested. You can still find the same info here, but it's a pain in the rear. It doesn't have to be that way.

 

Again, it's not necessarily about competetion - but an activity such as this is naturally related to numbers and statistics.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Stats *should* be here, because it adds a fun level of competition to the sport. Would high school/college/pro football be any fun if there wasn't a point system?

 

Would racing really matter if nobody won?

 

Sure, there's people who are going to take it far too seriously, but that's their own dadgum fault. I could care less if my neighbor is going to try for a 72-hour caching marathon just to pass me up in standings.

 

Taking only the first few columns into consideration, a stats list like this would be great. It would also be wonderful if the stats could be regionalized by state, which can be done easily given parameters found here, checking the geography link for each state.

 

Now, I understand that IP addresses found to be scraping information are being banned almost as quickly as they pull data. Why does this have to be a case of the few ruining it for the many, as so many things are in this society? Why not ban the specific offenders, like the ones who don't know how to setup a proper cron job to pull said data? Why not establish a set period daily when users or separate state sites can grab data to maintain locally?

 

Yes, there will be those that gripe over not being able to pull the data. It would be a perfect opportunity to inform them of the error so they are able to fix it. It would also be an opportunity to set parameters for the amount of data that is allowed to be pulled from the site (ex. XXMB/day). In most cases, we're talking simple text data being pulled from the site. Text data compresses EXTREMELY well (up to 98% or better), and uses little overall bandwidth. Another alternative would be to create some sort of application process for individual sites (state sites) that would allow them to provide the gc.com admins with what data they would like to have pulled, which could be setup locally then FXP'd to their respective system.

 

I just think that the recent actions taken were a bit heavy-handed, and more than likely out of frustration than anything. Of course, I could be dead wrong, but I still think it was knee-jerk in light of recent problems.

 

Brian

Team A.I.

 

[This message was edited by Brian - Team A.I. on September 05, 2003 at 11:39 AM.]

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Ok, I'm going to throw my two cents in here.

 

For those of you that like the stats that's great. Read em, and love em. For those of you don't then don't read em, go out on your own and forget about the people who like them.

 

Now, as for the stats page itself. Regardless of where it's housed you need one thing. Data. To date Jeremy has kept this data to himself. It's not surprising either because after all it's his site. What annoys me is that for those of us that fork out the $3.00 a month (of which there are probably thousands... you do the math) you don't get a whole lot in the way of upgrades to the features of the site.

 

*I* have volunteered my time to Jeremy to create stats pages or point scoring. I was told "The game was never intended to be point based." - That having been said it's clear Jeremy perceives that Geocaching is HIS game (although the site lists a different creator) and not that of the users. I've been working with websites, SQL and databases for over 14 years and I *volunteered* my time to get stats up.

 

I also emailed Dan about his stat page and taking it over before it went down. I received no response from him. The scuttlebutt I heard was that there was talk about integrating it into gc.com.

 

Bottom line - we've all sat here and talked about it yet the one person that has the power to either appease or displease remains silent. I see Jeremy pipe up for lesser conversations why does he avoid this one?

 

Where's Jeremy in all this? Your customers are calling...

 

--

SpongeRob

rwmech@keenpeople.com

www.keenpeople.com

WPWU826

 

Cache'n Retrievers

crlogo.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by SpongeRob:

Regardless of an individuals view on this, I think the majority of people here have spoken on what they want.


I think you can't substantiate this claim of a "majority."

 

There are a lot of us who don't want stats but have given up on wasting time trying to explain the problem with stats to the mindless drones who do want them.

 

In any event, my point had nothing to do with stats. If you think geocaching should be run the way the guy who created it thinks it should be run - and that's what you implied with the bit I quoted - then you think we should only be hunting virtuals. I encourage you to archive all of your traditional caches.

 

pirate.cgi.gif

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quote:
In any event, my point had nothing to do with stats. If you think geocaching should be run the way the guy who created it thinks it should be run - and that's what you implied with the bit I quoted - then you think we should only be hunting virtuals. I encourage you to archive all of your traditional caches.


 

Neither did mine. My point is that the community controls geocaching not one individual. I encourage you to expand your narrow vision.

 

--

SpongeRob

rwmech@keenpeople.com

www.keenpeople.com

WPWU826

 

Cache'n Retrievers

crlogo.gif

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If you are a stats athiest then by all means do not worship at the alter of stats.

 

However you shouldn't care if your numbers are included either because "stats don't matter" in the stats atheist world.

 

Now if you are anti stats thats another ball of wax.

 

The beauty of stats is that if done right, there are a thousand spins that can be done. Can't be #1 it the USA be #1 in your state. Can't be #1 in your state, go for your city. Only like remote caches, beg Skydiver for his point system where odds are you will be king. Or at least a member of the mile high club.

And so on.

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