Magellan Contest Rigged?

1.6k · August 5, 2003

Yeah, I'm pluggin Magellan because there are actually some folks who think they did us a disservice with their contest...

August 5, 2003

Wow Paranoia Runs Deep

Along with the Conspiracies of the World

Mzee ~~~ "And now where"

August 5, 2003

One thing I think this contest has helped point out to me is just how good of a job Jeremy is doing with the whole geocaching site/game. When you consider how many new people are always cycling through, most with little to no GPS experience, it's amazing the whole geocaching concept seems to work, let alone work as well as it does. As magellan has shown us, it's not necessarily an easy thing to do.

August 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:

...Garmin etrex loses signal more often than your Magellan did under moderate tree cover

As the owner of both a Magellan and Garmin, I consider statements like that to be nothing more than "urban legend."

This website claims that patch antennas are better, except for the Etrex. (less susceptible to metal influencing reception).

It doesn't say if the metal-detuning influence is temporary, or permanent.

I don't see why most GPS units don't have an external antenna jack!

Not sure if the author knows his stuff or not (I don't have enough experience to tell yet)...

http://gpsinformation.net/main/gpshiking.htm

Hukt un fonix werkt fur mee

2.5k · August 5, 2003

What it really says is:

quote:
Notes about GPS receivers for use in the woods:

1) eTrex models (due to their small size patch type antenna) have slightly less antenna gain and sensitivity and may not perform quite as well as others in difficult receiving conditions. They work just fine "out in the clear".

2) Helix type antennas tend to get "detuned" and have lower sensitivity if the antenna is placed close to a metal surface. Some detuning can result if the antenna is placed in a pocket or in a knapsack with metallic items or your body in close proximity. Patch type antennas suffer less and work better if you want your GPS to receive with the unit close to your body or in your pocket. NO GPS will perform properly in these conditions unless it has an external <maybe amplified> antenna out in the clear. GPS receivers are DESIGNED to operate properly WITH A CLEAR SKY VIEW. Any time you compromise with less than a full sky view, you are compromising the operation of the GPS and the accuracy of your position fix.

3) There is NO GPS which can be trusted to perform at all times in heavy tree cover or in steep and narrow valleys where GPS satellite signal masking can be present. If one GPS performs today and another does not perform tomorrow in "identical" circumstances, it proves nothing without further testing. The GPS satellites MOVE continuously and today they may be in an excellent position and tomorrow when you test they may be in a quite poor visibility situation. Except for the eTrex models noted above, there is little difference in "in the woods" performance between the various models recommended.

Since I go geocaching in the woods with my GPS in my hand, and not in my pocket, I have no use for the patch antenna. I'm not worried about metal detuning my GPS while in the woods.

August 5, 2003

Magellan Has Made a update on their page:

Thales Navigation apologizes for any inconvenience experienced as a result of an error in the coordinates posted for the "Brazilian Treasure" placed in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area in the Magellan GPS Treasure Hunt. We have taken great precautions to ensure the accuracy of the coordinates for all treasures. Regardless, errors can happen and we are working very hard to ensure problems are corrected as quickly as possible and do not recur, either for Pittsburgh area participants or for future participants at other treasure cache sites. The incorrect coordinates were removed as soon as we learned of the error and the correct coordinates will be posted soon. Additionally, we will be placing a second cache in the Pittsburgh area so that more of you can have a chance to participate and win.

We want to thank those geocachers who helped draw our attention to the error and we appreciate the concern expressed by participants for those who were impacted by the incorrect coordinates. We have already contacted the property owner at the incorrect coordinates to make amends. They were understandably concerned by the arrival of strangers on their property but have been accepting and gracious. Again, we apologize for any inconvenience and assure you that we are working to correct the situation in the best possible way.

9.1k · August 5, 2003

Thanks for alerting me to this, Puppyman. It's a more appropriate response by Thales... not perfect, but much better. I hope that everyone can move on and enjoy honest hunts for TWO treasures located at accurate coordinates! Good luck, everyone.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 5, 2003

Well we spent several hour today hunting the cache again then decided to at least log Lep's cache. Which I must say is my second favorite cache I've ever hunted. It was awful muddy though anyone seeking it should wear shoes with a gripping tread and waterproof. Thanks for the cache Lep it was the high point of another fruitless Magellan hunt.

A rocking chair or a porch swing with an old person in it is a histroy lesson.

9.1k · August 5, 2003

I am so happy that people are enjoying My newest Cache. Folks are having a great hunt, and I'm having a blast reading the logs and imagining all the muddy boots. That's what geocaching's all about!

And oh BOY am I glad that my coords are dead-on accurate!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

1.6k · August 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:
What it really says is:

Notes about GPS receivers for use _in the woods:_

1) eTrex models (due to their small size patch type antenna) have slightly less antenna gain and sensitivity and may not perform quite as well as others in difficult receiving conditions.

Thank you.

What I really would like is exactly what is mentioned, the ability to attach an external antenna...

2.5k · August 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:
It doesn't tell you that and just freezes the coords. Very annoying if you are not watching to see if it is still averaging!

I'm not sure what model you have, but on mine it's as easy as going to the alarm menu and turning it on. Another way to tell is to set one of your customizable fields to EPE. On the rare occasion that you might see the EPE field blank, then you will know you lost your signal.

3k · August 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:
Since I go geocaching in the woods with my GPS in my hand, and not in my pocket, I have no use for the patch antenna.

I go geocaching in the woods with my GPS in my hand as well ... I have NEVER failed to find a cache using my Vista due to a loss of reception. I guess I just don't know how to use it properly.

August 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:
Actually, I got really annoyed with my Magellan recently when it lost signal in the mountains and trees. It doesn't tell you that and just freezes the coords. Very annoying if you are not watching to see if it is still averaging! It caused me to look all around the wrong area for a 1/2 hour for a cache! I'm told that Garmin tells you when the signal is lost. I am about to upgrade and am now looking at Garmin!

What model?

Are the SporTrak models that way?

It seems the "Poor Coverage" message would be useful information.

I appreciate knowing that with my Garmin, though where I live

I see that message more often than not, except when I go sailing!

I do wish manufacturers would learn that good features,

no matter how helpful, need to come with the ability to

switch them off!

Hukt un fonix werkt fur mee

1.1k · August 6, 2003

2 points.

If a unit looses coverage and stops navigating then it should start ringing alarm bells. There is absolutely no reason not to and quite frankly poor information if it doesn't.

Auto-averaging, another userless feature, wonder when Magellan might actually make it so one can turn it off.

Cheers, Kerry.

I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

August 6, 2003

The suggestion that the contest is rigged or there is some conspiracy is ridiculous.

quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:
I tried Magellen's Brazilian Treasure cache which is or was supposed to be hidden somewhere near Pittsburgh. The coordinates posted this morning turned out to be wrong and the led me to some poor guy's garage. He got pretty scared by the first guy who showed up and pulled into his driveway thinking that his story about treasure hunting might be a scam for a home invasion. Fortunately, I didn't arrive until late in the day because I did four caches on the way and didn't expect that I would have had any chance at the grand prize since I live on the other side of the city. I met some other geocachers near the site that confirmed that I had the right coordinates and we discussed the matter with the property owner who told us something very interesting: Somebody first approched him on Thursday night with a GPS and a map saying that the treasure was hidden near his garage. This would have been about 48 hours before the coordinates were officially posted. Something fishy is going on here......

Johnny

2.5k · August 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kerry:
If a unit looses coverage and stops navigating then it should start ringing alarm bells. There is absolutely no reason not to and quite frankly poor information if it doesn't.

loses

Even worse is not knowing how to operate your equipment.

1.4k · August 6, 2003

quote:
If a unit looses coverage and stops navigating then it should start ringing alarm bells.

Well... my Sportrak does a have alarm which can be set to sound should it lose reception.

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

4.8k · August 6, 2003

quote:
Good luck then.
When your Garmin etrex loses signal more often than your Magellan did under moderate tree cover, you'll have even more time to read these three beautiful words:

'Lost Satellite Reception'

Good point, and I have considered that. But I have found from caching with people with Garmin that usually we both lose signal and at least their's tells them that it happened. I haven't made any final decisions, but I was originally thinking of only Magellan for an upgrade and now I will consider Garmin as well.

August 6, 2003

quote:
Good point, and I have considered that. But I have found from caching with people with Garmin that usually we both lose signal and at least their's tells them that it happened. I haven't made any final decisions, but I was originally thinking of only Magellan for an upgrade and now I will consider Garmin as well.

You said you have a 315 right? Have you perhaps tried consulting your 315 manual on page 39 where it tells you how to turn on and off the alarm? Then maybe you too could be made aware when you lose signal. Just a thougt....

And correct me if I'm wrong but the Etrex and Gecko lines don't have alarms either. Only the GPSMAP series and GPS 7x handhelds have alarms.

-beatnik-

[This message was edited by beatnik on August 06, 2003 at 08:06 PM.]

August 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hammack:
The suggestion that the contest is rigged or there is some conspiracy is ridiculous.

Ridiculous? It seemed like a resonable explanation at the time. I guess I gave them too much credit. They are too incompetent to pull off a conspiracy. Who would have guessed that they would get the numbers wrong *AND* publish them on a website that isn't secure enough to prevent amateur hackers from getting the coordinates ahead of time. Would I be surprized if there isn't also a security leak that gives someone a headstart in this rat race? Who knows?

How did this thread deteriorate into a debate of Garmin vs. Magellan?

Johnny

4.8k · August 6, 2003

Thanks Cachew nut and Beatnik. I hadn't considered the alarm possibility.

1.4k · August 6, 2003

I don't know about the contest being rigged, but I can say their website is horrible. It's like they have a pair of Apple 2e's as servers. I have never been able to log on without timing out and I have cable.

I just started caching and use a Meridian Platnium and I hope this game and website is not an indication as to the durability of my GPSr.

Whats up Magellan? Did the squirrels escape from the servers? Did you choose the lowest SAT/ACT scores for the folks in charge? SAT/ACT scores are not like golf scores...you want the HIGH ones.

Ok, my rant is done.

I guess Garmin will have an event next.

When in doubt...hit it with a big hammer.

1.6k · August 7, 2003

I was using my etrex Vista tonight, but it is hard to read (on the default setting)

Can someone tell me what page to read to make the text bigger?

August 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris&Cindy:
I don't know about the contest being rigged, but I can say their website is horrible. It's like they have a pair of Apple 2e's as servers. I have never been able to log on without timing out and I have cable.

I just started caching and use a Meridian Platnium and I hope this game and website is not an indication as to the durability of my GPSr.

Whats up Magellan? Did the squirrels escape from the servers? Did you choose the lowest SAT/ACT scores for the folks in charge? SAT/ACT scores are not like golf scores...you want the HIGH ones.

Ok, my rant is done.

I guess Garmin will have an event next.

When in doubt...hit it with a big hammer.

Don't worry about the performance of your GPS. All kidding aside, I think both the Garmin and the Magellan units are very durable pieces of equipment. I use the Meridian and my son uses the yellow etrek. We've never had any major problems with either unit.

JetSkier

August 7, 2003

Last night was the first time I used our new Magellan SporTrak Pro GPSr.

Man, what a huge amazing difference a few years of technology makes!

I was able to get a fix in areas I never would have dreamed possible. Instead of only being able to receive signal in the best places in the forest I jog in, I was able to get reception in all but a couple of really bad spots!

I'll have to find what manual page I can go to for enabling the alarm on my unit.

Here's the Magellan Online User's Manuals Link:

http://www.magellangps.com/en/support/products/

Hukt un fonix werkt fur mee

August 7, 2003

The whole corporate conspiracy theory trend in this thread put me in mind of Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

I for one, can't see how incompetance by a company's marketing department relates even remotely to its competence in making GPS products, so when I trade in my 310, it will likely be for another Magellan unless some other company comes up with a technical breakthrough other than being able to post correct coordinates on a contest page while trying to give away really nice things to a lot of people who sound like they don't deserve them.

Also, sounds like Alan is enterprising, not villainous.

As a dreamer of dreams and a travelling man, I have chalked up many a mile, read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, and I've learned much from both of their styles. -J. Buffett

August 7, 2003

I was one of the first to go through contest troubles, and have them resolved. I chalked it up to part of the challenge.

But, do you really expect a company to try to get involved again with us if after the first attempt, we rip them to pieces. Why don't we treat them as we do all newbies to our sport.

Oh, wait, scratch that. Let's treat them better than that.

I worked with them and got my problems here resolved. I also posted the number to reach the head of the marketing department. Other than that, why not offer some constructive criticism and work with them. They don't owe us anything, and after the way they are being treated here, I doubt that they try to give us something any time soon.

Game on!

Ever notice how anyone that caches more than you do is a maniac, while anyone that caches less than you do is an idiot? -Dru Morgan

9.1k · August 7, 2003

Dru, I think there may be several distinctions between your experience and what happened in Pittsburgh.

First, I can understand bumps in the road early in the process. Yours was one of the first treasure hunts. I would have hoped that Magellan would have learned from that experience, and taken greater care to ensure the accuracy of the coordinates published. The coordinates in Pittsbugh were 2.5 miles west of the correct park.

Second, we had some frustration with the delay before Magellan offered a helpful response (i.e., that Pittsburgh would receive a separate hunt that wasn't tainted by people having early access to the correct coordinates). How quickly was Southern California offered its second hunt? I don't recall. I do know that Thales' PR Department wanted to speak with me; I have called back twice and left very polite, businesslike messages giving my office and cellphone numbers, but I haven't heard back from anyone.

Third, how many people showed up en masse at the incorrect coordinates? One or two cars is different than the 10+ cars I saw at the Pittsburgh site. Our coordinates were released shortly after 10 a.m., not in the middle of the night. Those homeowners were pretty surprised! And that is what bothered me most. It was a preventable problem.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

6.5k · August 7, 2003

quote:
I was one of the early group to arrive at the incorrectly posted coordinates. Folks, take my word for it, with 340 finds and 15 hides, I do know how to navigate to a waypoint. This was Magellan's mistake, pure and simple. I strongly resent their lecturing me on the page for the Pittsburgh treasure hunt, where it says not to trespass on private property. I KNOW not to post coordinates that are on private property. I trust the HIDER to post accurate coordinates.

Hey Lep, how did you explain the live hamster trying to get out of your pocket to the garage owner?

These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes;

Nothing remains quite the same.

Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

9.1k · August 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by wimseyguy:
Hey Lep, how did you explain the live hamster trying to get out of your pocket to the garage owner?

Ummm, this is kind of embarrassing, but in my rush to climb the briar-infested hill leading to the posted coordinates, I slipped on a muddy spot and, ummm, crushed my trade item.

Seriously, I never did speak with the property owner, although I did see him from my car as I was driving. I stopped at the property line in his backyard, and returned to the woods after getting a cellphone call from a team mate who had seen the police arrive.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 7, 2003

Lep, I totally understand. Your well reasoned, polite toned, explanation of the problems is a lot different than personal attacks aimed at the company or people within it. I'm not saying we should ignore the problems, but discussing them and working on solutions will encourage them to work with us faster than slanderous accusations about their ability to find north on a compass etc. that I have heard others say.

Ever notice how anyone that caches more than you do is a maniac, while anyone that caches less than you do is an idiot? -Dru Morgan

9.1k · August 7, 2003

Dru, thanks for the kind words. In reading over the thread, I'll be the first to admit that not ALL of my words were well-reasoned and polite. Lack of sleep will do that to you!

And we won't even mention the name of my latest geocache hidden.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 7, 2003

So it *was* you, you irish bastard!!! I knew it. Don't you *EVER* make me be the voice of reason on these boards again.

August 7, 2003

But its still a good cache! Even if Lep did hide it with a bit of angst. lol

Being the brand faithful Magellan user that I am, I quit cursing magellan by the time we got home saturday night. I was a little displeased again on tuesday after searching agin, but at least I knew I was looking for something with no coords then. Now I just have to find a way to fix my SporTrak since I broke it on saturday.

Eeyore

A rocking chair or a porch swing with an old person in it is a histroy lesson.

August 7, 2003

Lep, you know I'm kidding, right? Talk to me!

Ever notice how anyone that caches more than you do is a maniac, while anyone that caches less than you do is an idiot? -Dru Morgan

9.1k · August 7, 2003

Irish bastard? Them's fightin' words, and I think the owner of this site will back me up on that point.

If you are man enough to emerge from behind your keyboard and call me that to my face, I'll open a can of elfin whup-a$$ on you. Meet me Saturday at high noon at N 40° 25.433 W 080° 09.666. Oh wait, you have a Magellan. Could you maybe get a map and meet me at the corner of Fifth Avenue and Wood Street in Pittsburgh?

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 7, 2003

There you go. I thought for a second you didn't have my sense of humor.

Oh, and BTW, I only own 2 Garmins.

Ever notice how anyone that caches more than you do is a maniac, while anyone that caches less than you do is an idiot? -Dru Morgan

9.1k · August 7, 2003

Two Garmins? You're twice the man I'll ever be. Feel the love.

I'm going caching now!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

1.5k · August 7, 2003

They've done it again.

Magellan released Hint #3 in the Loot from Mactan Island, and identified that they placed the cache in the McDowell Mountains (aka McDowell Sonoran Preserve), which has completely banned all geocaching, even if the container is sitting right NEXT to the trail. The McDowell Sonoran Preserve Commission voted in April 2003 to not allow any kind of off-trail activities, geocaching included. Suddenly, a marketing guy from Magellan shows up and places a cache on this land.

http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/preserve/currenttopics.asp

Brian

Team A.I.

August 7, 2003

There are plenty of places in the McDowell Mountains that are not part of the Sonaran Land Trust so don't be too hasty.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I want to see a sunrise, I'll STAY up for it!

1.5k · August 7, 2003

True. But a chunk of that which isn't part of the Preserve is State Trust Land, which requires a permit (thankfully I have one). What's left over is probably protected by some rogue yuppie driving his 14-ton SUV powered by the fat from baby seals because he/she/it claims it to be there due to the fact that it's within 1000 miles of their rock-line pool/spa.

Brian

Team A.I.

1.7k · August 7, 2003

Ok I'm scared. Keep in mind that Magellan placed a cache on NPS land in Atlanta, when I spoke to the VP of marketing they were unaware of the NPS ban on Geocaching. All its going to take is one cache placed by Magellan on some place like the Sonoran Land Trust and Geocaching as a whole gets a bad name. Its why vacation caches are not allowed, you have no idea about local guidelines and may be damaging relationships that are being built up.

August 7, 2003

I'm guessing it's hidden in McDowell Mountain Regional Park. This is a public park run by the county government. No permit is required. Many people mistakenly think of this park when reading about the Sonoran Preserve. Hopefully it is in this park and there will be no problem, although I'm sure some people will complain about the $5 entry fee at the park.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I want to see a sunrise, I'll STAY up for it!

1.7k · August 8, 2003

Cacheusout, I like your sig line. I feel the same way.

Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes

On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:

"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --

"Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"

Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898

August 16, 2003

Well it looks like Quest Master made the paper concerning this cache....

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/tribsouthwest/news/s_150106.html

August 17, 2003

Quote from the article....The value of items in caches frequently is less than $10.

Frequently?

Snortchuckleguffaw

william

9.1k · August 17, 2003

The newspaper article also reveals that Thales silenced a very vocal critic by asking me to work with them to fix things. It was at my suggestion that the treasure hunts did NOT occur this weekend, due to Geocaching picnics held yesterday in the Pittsburgh and Cleveland areas. When the coordinates for the original and bonus Pittsburgh treasures are released, I can assure you that they will be accurate within the normal range we're used to as geocachers.

I am, of course, disqualified from participating in the contest. I wish everyone else good luck!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 17, 2003

I was surprized that you didn't tell them to get bent Lep. After some of the things that have happened I was surprized you didn't let them twist in the wind. lol

A rocking chair or a porch swing with an old person in it is a histroy lesson.

2.4k · August 17, 2003

Just think, maybe if they'd asked people like you from the start, they wouldn't have made the mess that they did. Then maybe they'd have come off looking professional, instead of like babbling idiots.

Nothing to see here, move along.

1.7k · August 17, 2003

I agree with IV, they have made wide ranges of mistakes that could have been avoided if they had worked with the Geocaching communiyt to begin with. I called Thales after they hid the Atlanta cache on NPS land. I also asked them to stop posting coordinates at 3am, as people had gone into the woods with flashlights searching. It wasn't until they understood that the parks were closed at night and people could be arrested for trespassing before they agreed to end that practice.

I'm still confused behind the logic of a marketing campaign were most of the people who participate already own a GPS.

Magellan Contest Rigged?

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