Commercial Cache's

[Syn]

Does anyone know of any cache hunts where the cache is behind a counter in a store.

 

I remember at the Champoeg Rendesvous, the folks up from Klamath Falls spoke about a cache like this.

 

I planted a cache in Mosier and it was archived saying it was commercial. Even though nobody is under any obligation to purchase anything at this location and I made it very clear to the Museum Owner about this point.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=24536

[DisQuoi]

Is it a museum? Is it a store? Is it a museum gift shop? I can understand they a line must be drawn to avoid the path of store owners luring customers in this way. Also, it's a bit unorthodox to have to ask a clerk to see the cache ... Is there anything of interest outside that could be a worthwhile virtual? The map makes it appear to be an interesting place ... near the river?

[+The Cheeseheads]

This one is kind of like that. The cache owner got permission to place it, and it was themed to its location.

 

[Syn]

It is a private collection of Porsche's on display. It is in downtown Mosier and a bit aways from the river.

 

It is a one of a kind place in the entire area.

 

From reading the other post my hunch was correct that other caches in "commercial" nature exist.

 

I see no reason why this should not be approved as people are under no obligation to purchase anything. They can just go and look at the collection of Porsche's. There is no admittance charge, and on top of that, its a great stop on the way to other local area caches.

[DisQuoi]

Maybe there's more to this story but I'm guessing that the person who was given the task of approving caches doesn't understand that this is not a dealership or other store. I've found museum virtual caches in Washington DC. What a great idea that the manager of the museum agreed to keep a physical cache inside. It's not a traditinal cache but it's one-step better than a virtual. I think you should simply contact the person who dissapproved the cache and explain in more detail what the situation is.

 

You said that noone is obliged to buy anything. What is for sale ... who owns the museum?

 

p.s. The museum caches that I have done in washington DC required entering the museums to collect verification information. If entering a building violates the rules of geocaching.com, they should archive many others like it.

[Syn]

It has porsche merchandise for sale, keychains t-shirts etc.

 

It also has a small ice cream shop attached.

 

It is a great location with interesting stuff.

 

It has all kinds of info on porsches also.....just like a museum.

[+MattandLaura]

hey wayne

 

just put the coordinates down without the going into the store part..after it is approved edit the cache to include going into the store

 

[+yrium]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MattandLaura:

hey wayne

 

just put the coordinates down without the going into the store part..after it is approved edit the cache to include going into the store

 

http://www.sanzones.com/geosigbuscard.jpg

---

 

Or in other words ... "Hey Wayne, just trick the cache approval people...

 

--- yrium ---

[+Gloom]

Both are behind the counter at local Mom-and-Pop general stores. You have to go in and ask for the 'geocache container'. You're not required to buy anything, so I don't see them as commercial type caches. Especially since they are not advertising the name of the store. It would be different if you had to buy something, or the cache was like 'Mom & Pops store is the best'.

 

-Gloom

 

----

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

[Syn]

He said that he realy enjoyed the place and that the proprietor was extremely nice and helpfull.

 

I asked him to post a message in here describing in detail his experience....

[+Capt. Jack & 1st Mate]

This cache has been archived as it was considered a commercial cache. This was definitely not my impression as we walked in and looked over the Porsche collection and then asked the proprietor for the cache and he graciously produced it. We did not buy anything nor did he ask us to, and we found the total experience as a positive one. In fact he seemed to be elated that we had found the cache so soon and was amused with the concept. My vote is to keep this alive as it a very fun place to visit and the host is willing to keep it.

 

Capt. Jack & 1st Mate

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Syn Aka Waynepdx:

... Even though nobody is under any obligation to purchase anything at this location ...

---

 

This fact in itself does not define the cache as non-commercial. In fact very few commercial enticements have "an obligation to purchase" There are thousands of obviously commercial sites on the internet most of which have no "obligation to purchase". However, such sites do everything possible to entice you there in the hope that you may purchase. I think the reason behind the "no commercial cache" rule is to prevent persons using Geocaching.com for advertising or commercial enticement. When a particular cache, by its very location draws somebody to a place of business, the obvious presumption is that it has a commercial purpose. In the few cases where commercial promotion is not the intent (for the purposes of this discussion I will accept that the Porsche Museaum fits this category) it is very difficult to tell the difference, and I can understand if the approvers want to err on the side of not allowing it. As stated on previous threads about commercial caches, if they were allowed it would have a huge impact on Geocaching as we know it. (some might say for the better but that debate would be for another thread).

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[DisQuoi]

I'g glad that Capt. Jack (Charter Member) has visited this cache and logged his find in this forum. He has almost 60 finds so I am comfortable relying on his judgment of whether this cache is appropriate for geocaching. I agree that those entrusted to approve/dissapprove caches should err on the side of not allowing commercial caches but in this case, I think the cache should be approved at this point.

[+Moore9KSUcats]

Why was this not approved? Apparently there are others (in Oregon?) where the cache container is in a store. There is no admission fee for this museum, but there are admission fees for many of the state parks, etc. that caches are frequently placed in. There is nothing that is required to be purchased here, and you have the option of visiting (for free) an interesting museum. Have you written to the admin for a definite explanation of why this was disallowed? It sounds like a great place to visit. Granted, the museum is private, rather than "public" like a park is, but you have the option of whether or not to visit this cache. There are several in parks I would like to visit, but have been put off by the fee I would be required to pay (sometimes a per person fee, and that gets costly for 6 in the family), but as long as that information is stated in the cache description, I don't see a problem with it.

[+bubble_luscious]

I can't imagine why they wouldn't approve this cache. In my opinion they should have. They approved one for the Special Olympics in Tukwila. Why wouldn't that one be considered a commercial cache??? They even ask for donations! That just doesn't seem right. Not that I have anything against the Special Olympics, but why would they approve a cache that asks for donations and not tihs one???

Just my two cents worth.

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

The more rules we make the more complicated it gets. Before you know it the hobby isn't fun anymore.

 

I'm beginning to miss the simple times already.

 

I don't see anything commericial about having a cache inside a business. I've visited a couple of caches inside stores and guess what, I actually did spend a couple of bucks. So what? They weren't advertising their business. I just had a need for a corndog while I was there. It was a nice place to visit as I'm sure a Porche dealer would be.

 

Yep, better not put any caches on toll roads.

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

[Syn]

I sent the person who denied it a message stating my case with points being made that other caches exist and I also sent Jeremy a message. I have not heard back from either.

 

I do not expect to hear back from them, I have read several other threads and have come to the conclusion that once a decision is made then they pretty much never come back to the issue unless a whole bunch of cachers are discussing it.

 

The funny thing is I resubmitted this as a virtual and it was approved in less than 4 hours.

 

I bet if I sent a message to admin saying ..okay how big of a check do you want me to send you to have this cache approved...I bet I would get a response then.

 

And for all the people that are gonna respond to this...yes I know Jeremy is busy but as an active cacher and promoter of this game, It is my right to question the self appointed sanctioning body of the game.

 

Contrary to popular belief...geocaching is the peoples game that plays it. Yes Jeremy has done wonders in developing the game and I am sure he makes at least a small profit from it.

 

But, and a big but, without cachers participating in the game, then he would have nothing to promote.

[+lostinjersey]

... however the concept has merit. I know of one virtual cache tied to a naval vessel near me where the placer is seeking to establish a real cache inside the museum in much the same manner. I thought it was a wonderful idea then, and it still is. Difference is that a museum isn't commericial, whereas a Porsche dealership definately is. well.. sine they sell things in museum gift shops, it actually could bve considered commercial, but only if you're anal retentive.

 

What i want to know is how was this even broached to the proprieter? I have a hard enoguh time simply EXPLAINING geocaching to the unknowing, let alone asking someone to participate...

 

Caching with a 5 year old: takes twice as long, and is twice as satisifying (or aggrevating depending on your POV)

 

The faster you go, the worse your reception is.

[+lostinjersey]

... however the concept has merit. I know of one virtual cache tied to a naval vessel near me where the placer is seeking to establish a real cache inside the museum in much the same manner. I thought it was a wonderful idea then, and it still is. Difference is that a museum isn't commericial, whereas a Porsche dealership definately is. well.. sine they sell things in museum gift shops, it actually could bve considered commercial, but only if you're anal retentive.

 

What i want to know is how was this even broached to the proprieter? I have a hard enoguh time simply EXPLAINING geocaching to the unknowing, let alone asking someone to participate...

 

Caching with a 5 year old: takes twice as long, and is twice as satisifying (or aggrevating depending on your POV)

 

The faster you go, the worse your reception is.

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lazyboy & Mitey Mite: Too Many Rules

The more rules we make the more complicated it gets. Before you know it the hobby isn't fun anymore.

---

 

What new rules are you talking about? I am aware of virtually no new rules. When I first started playing (six months ago) the only posted rule about placing a cache was "Caches perceived of a commercial nature will not be approved." That is the one being applied in this case. From following the forums, it seems this rule has been applied quite evenly.

 

quote:

---

I don't see anything commericial about having a cache inside a business.

---

 

How about if the proprietor of the business placed the cache in his business as a method of attracting business? You don't see that as commercial?? If the "no commercial" rule is not strictly enforced, within 6 months 90 percent of all caches will be inside or at the door of a business - I guarantee it! It would become virtually impossible to tell a genuine cache from some cache placed by a hucktster waiting to take my money.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[Syn]

I simply went up to him and started by saying that I participate in a game called geocaching. And proceeded to explain what geocaching was. I showed him a cache printout and he knew all about it from there.

 

..also another response to the statement that all caches percieved to be of a commercial nature will be denied. Well what are the rules for percieved. Just because I put "you are under no obligation to purchase anything", some have said that that makes it a commercial cache.

 

BS....I put that there to make it plain and clear that it was NOT a commercial cache.

 

If I read a statement like that then I would think it was not a commercial cache whereas others would percieve it is.

 

So now that perceptions are different for each person...lets reapproach the statement ...caches percieved to be commercial will be denied.

 

There needs to be clearly spelled out rules regarding this and not "perceptions". Each cache approval is different..whereas one would approve something that another wouldnt.

 

There should be a set of clear guidelines that each approval must follow, otherwise let me have my choice of who I submit caches too.

 

After all we can make it like the court system, if an attorney knows that this judge is hard on the crime his client is accused of, he applies for a change of venue to get a different judge that is not so hard.

 

Yes, there is always bumps in the road regarding the Maturing of this sport, but to be completely inconsistent in types of caches ..IE approving caches that are clearly the same as this one and not calling them commercial while calling this one commercial, well anyway ..to be inconsistent with cache approval shows disorganization on the admins expense.

 

Just my two cents...and maybe a buck more.

[Syn]

I find it funny after looking at one of the caches you have placed.

 

Do you pick and choose only the rules of geocaching that you think you should apply to others.

 

I noticed on your cache that you placedhttp://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=12226

 

That there were some concerns regarding a private property sign.

 

Did you do research to ensure that one of the routes you were recommending was still private property and that the owner did not have a problem with people crossing his/her property.

 

Yes the sign may be decades old but it is still a sign.

 

Did you go to the tax assesors office or county surveyors office and verify who was the owner of the land.

 

There is allot of land around where I live that have signs that have been there for 15 years. They are still faded yet they are still private property.

 

The funny thing is I dont ever remember seeing anyone on these properties. So since so much time has passd does that mean I can just go on their property and have a hey day.

 

I eagerly anticipate your response to this.

[+MattandLaura]

sorry for the crosspost but I thought I'd post thiis here too,

 

Looks like I ticked off the admin. First off let me apologize for my remark made earlier in a post about the Porshe cache on ways to beat the system. I only read about it on another post in the General section and didn't think much about it. Now it seems I have a black mark (via e-mail "The admins are all well aware of your posting in the forums re. the PORCHE cache, so I wanted to give you a friendly warning that admins have their "watch lists" too. ") No names given but again I apologize to the admin and will be careful in the future about what I write.

 

[+erik88l-r]

Apology accepted, at least by this admin.

 

Jeremy has promised to post some rules soon. I hate to see rules at all with the fear that they'll stiffle creativity, but all games or sports have rules of some sort or there'd be anarchy. There are also a lot of things that we take for granted but a newbie would be unaware of, so to avoid misunderstandings and wasted time for all I think it would be good to post what's acceptable and what isn't. If you don't agree with a particular decision you can always post it in the forums and see what others think.

 

"Caches perceived to be of a commercial nature" is a toughie. We often pay a couple of dollars as we enter a park, but don't consider that commercial. There are caches that give no option but to pay for a ferry ride to the island to reach it for the cache hunt. Then again, if the location is clearly a business and the cache is placed with the intent of bringing people into the business it would without a doubt be a commercial cache.

 

It's all the gray areas in between those two extremes that make it hard. I would suggest that if there is any chance that a cache might be perceived as a commercial one that you run it by Jeremy before posting it. Ultimately he's responsible for what's on the site so let him decide up front.

 

~erik~

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

Why allow a cache in some stores but not in a car dealer?

 

Are you no longer EVER going to allow a cache in a store? I've been to a couple of stores where caches are held. I've been to Pizza joints where there is a virtual cache inside.

 

I suggest you moderators back off a bit on what is allowed in regards to these so called commercial caches as many of us have visited plenty of them. Now to deny some of them seems silly.

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Syn Aka Waynepdx:

I find it funny after looking at one of the caches you have placed.

 

Do you pick and choose only the rules of geocaching that you think you should apply to others.

---

As I said, there are virtually no rules to "pick and choose" from. And I think that's good.

 

(The cache of mine you refer to is not on private property. The trail generally used by the public to access the site is. I gave a warning to that effect and also made sure that two alternate routes which do not cross private property were provided in cache description. I am somewhat puzzled by your question, as it has nothing to do with this thread. I presume it was just a response to me ticking you off (which was not my intent).

 

I have nothing personally against your Porshce Museum cache - and as I posted in a previous thread, I acknowledge that it appears (from the discussion in this thread) not to have been placed there for a commercial purpose.

 

Now a question for you: If Geocaching.com wants to maintain its rule against commercial caches (which of course it their right), then what should the approvers do when they are considering approving a cache that requires one to enter a commercial establishment in order to find it (like yours)?

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

[+sbell111]

Thanks for giving your point of view, Erik. I think we all understand that the non-commercial requirement can be very difficult to determine.

 

For instance, in my area, we have had caches sponsored by sporting goods stores. These were not located at the store, but had merchandise with the store logo. I have no problem with this type of cache, largely because the cache was full of good 'junk' and it takes more than a logo or an offer to sell to make my money fly out of my pocket.

 

We've also had microcaches located inside our local zoo. Included on the cache page was the suggestion that one should purchase an annual pass. I think these get too close to the line. I have no problem with caches in the zoo, but the request for a purchase of the annual upgrade probably should not have been included.

[+M-D-M Explorations]

Maybe there should be a separate category for the "commercial" classified caches.

 

By the sounds of things there have already been a number of them that exist and people have been able to enjoy. And I think we are all grown up enough to realize if you don't want to buy something, then don't (unless of course it is more geo-caching gear!).

 

M-D-M Explorations

MrSki and DogMa

40º 07.874'N

88º 11.647'W

[Syn]

Seneca in response to your question:

 

Now a question for you: If Geocaching.com wants to maintain its rule against commercial caches (which of course it their right), then what should the approvers do when they are considering approving a cache that requires one to enter a commercial establishment in order to find it (like yours)?

 

What I would do if I was an admin is each cache that is of a possible commercial nature, is to email the placer and get more info. If the admin did his job and acquired more info from me then this thread would never have been discussed.

 

I completely disagree with his decision on so many levels which can be gotten with above posts by me.

 

I would also have a rule that if a cache has characteristics of being commercial:

 

1-Requires you to buy something.

2-Requires you to go into a specific place whether it be a business or a structure.

3-Is placed by a business.

4-Is sponsored by a business.

5-Promotes a specific business.

 

If a cache falls under rule 2, but rule one does not apply, then it is not commercial.

 

If rule 2,3,4 or 5 applies then it is commercial.

 

Yes there are exceptions to every rule.

 

I bet if a business wants to place a cache and throws some money to geocaching.com, it would be allowed if the price was right.

 

I think that Geocachers themselves should be allowed to dictate what rules should govern commercial cache's.

 

Lets face it, this game is still in its infancy and whenever any game is new the rules change all the time.

 

Usually a governing body regulates the rules of a game, but if that governing body is just picking the rules without listening to the players, then they are not doing there job.

 

I did not ever think I would be in a position to question the admin of geocaching.com.

 

But It is my right to do so as a player of this game.

 

And for those that say, geocaching.com is a private company and since they run the website then they have the right to run it how they seem fit.

 

I say geocaching is a game that is played by its participants, and should reflect their wishes.

 

Case in point...There was an overwhelming demand for locationless caches. I myself of not a big fan of them and neither is Jeremy. His position on them was clear in forum threads.

 

But the participants wanted them and he had to give them to him. This was not a decision made based on his viewpoints of them, because clearly he doesnt like them.

 

It was a business decision. The participants wanted this and he gave it to him.

 

Looking at his decision from a business viewpoint, he had no choice.

 

When you make a decision that you dont want to, yes it sucks, but when you think about the repercussions if you dont, that is what drives the decisions.

 

In this case, how much more activity in geocaching has been done since locationless has been done.

 

Sure people that wanted it are going to be happy, but the people that didnt want them are not going to be happy.

 

Well the classic geocaching is still here so people just choose not to do locationless if they dont like them.

 

Ive been rambling long enough.

 

Bring on the flames.

(Am I becoming a troll)..should I move under a bridge...I know one that would make a cool cache location.

[+CT Trampers]

I am thinking of placing a multi cache. To obtian the coordinates to the final cache, two other caches must be found first. Each of the first two caches will contain one half of the coordinates to the final cache.

 

We were thinking of placing one set of coordinates inside a local donut shop. (the owner has given us permission)

 

The coordinates would be on one of those cork boards where people would put business cards, offer things for sale, etc. It would basically be a note with a few "tear off" sheets with the coordinates on them. No need to bother the clerks or to buy anything. What do you think?

[+sbell111]

CT Trampers-

 

I like it. But then again, I never met a donut I didn't like and therefore, may be tempted to purchase. My choice, though.

 

Syn-

 

I disagree that it is the approvers responsibility to contact cache owners for mre info. Give the approver as much info as you can on the front end. If your cache is disallowed, contact the approver to plead your case. If that doesn't work take it to the peeps in the forums.

 

I also disagree with your logic regarding what should automatically be disallowed as commercial. As explained in my previous post, there are currently existing caches that were sponsored by sporting goods companies. In my mind, these should not necessarily be disallowed. Your argument could be extended to include caches sponsored by park systems if the park required an entry fee. Surely it could be argued that if a park sponsors a cache but requires an entry fee than it is a cache that profits the placer monetarily and therefore is commercial. We must not go down that road.

 

I want to make it clear to you that I agree that your cache seems appropriate and should be approved. Let me ask you this, however. If I owned a business (any business) and placed a cache inside. Would this cache be commercial? Would it matter if I required you to inquire about the cache or if you could access it without talking to me? Would it matter if the cache was outside my building, but still on my property? What if it could be accessed without being viewed from inside my business?

 

As you see, whether or not a cache is commercial is a very complicated issue.

[NetDep]

Just a short (famous last words) comment here. Just got done reading Jeremy's "rules" and they seem extremely fair. This is, after all, a game/sport/hobby. It seems that from a couple of postings above on the "clarification" of commercial caches - we would need Mr. Seneca (Attorney at Law) to unwind all of them. Know what? The approvers made a judgement - let it be - seems a lot of time was taken to object (pun) to something that will not be overruled (really killing myself here). Yes, I am new and my opinion matters little - but let's keep it light & fun - and not take ourselves too serious - that is the fun of this: it still is - fun. (And Mr. Seneca - did you recently start adding the tag line about your sig being a joke??? Was someone offended?? Is there no end???) HAPPY CACHING!!!

[NetDep]

Just a short (famous last words) comment here. Just got done reading Jeremy's "rules" and they seem extremely fair. This is, after all, a game/sport/hobby. It seems that from a couple of postings above on the "clarification" of commercial caches - we would need Mr. Seneca (Attorney at Law) to unwind all of them. Know what? The approvers made a judgement - let it be - seems a lot of time was taken to object (pun) to something that will not be overruled (really killing myself here). Yes, I am new and my opinion matters little - but let's keep it light & fun - and not take ourselves too serious - that is the fun of this: it still is - fun. (And Mr. Seneca - did you recently start adding the tag line about your sig being a joke??? Was someone offended?? Is there no end???) HAPPY CACHING!!!

[+mtn-man]

Frankly, the cache indicated above should be archived. It is a commercial cache by someone who list their Geonick as "waiter". Uhhh, do you think he works there? It most likely slipped through the admins.

 

I have posted this before, but if you want to post waypoints for a commercial location go to The GPS Waypoints Registry at www.waypoint.org and post your suggestions there. They even have a category for restaurants and museums and many other categories for you to choose from. Please post your advertisements there and lets keep this site for Geocaching. Heck, the waypoints wherehouse WANTS you input.

 

I support the Georgia Geocachers Association, or the GGA!