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Caches banned in wilderness areas?


briansnat
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Since when were geocaches banned from federally designate wilderness areas? The last I heard, wilderness areas were managed by the USFS, whose policies have generally been favorable toward geocaching. I did read where the management of several individual wilderness areas found geocaches to be inappropriate and banned them, but I thought it was on a case by case basis. I was not aware of a blanket ban and was wondering when it was announced.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Since when were geocaches banned from federally designate wilderness areas? The last I heard, wilderness areas were managed by the USFS, whose policies have generally been favorable toward geocaching. I did read where the management of several _individual_ wilderness areas found geocaches to be inappropriate and banned them, but I thought it was on a case by case basis. I was not aware of a blanket ban and was wondering when it was announced.

 

_"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm_


 

My understanding is the same as yours. There was some discusion of this some time ago and there were quotes of the law about Wilderness Areas. These quotes led me to believe that it was OK to cache in at least some of these areas.

 

Here in Indiana there is only one Federal Wilderness Area. It is managed by the USFS. Hunting, fishing, horseback riding, and hiking are permitted. Nothing mechanical is allowed. There are a few remote caches in the area.

 

FWIW,

 

Bluespreacher

 

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

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I just sent the following email to the approver who posted the note on the cache page.

quote:
The comment you posted on the cache page for GC7EC9 has raised a question in the General forum topic "Caches banned in wilderness areas?"

 

Your entry ("This cache is in a Wilderness Area. Physical caches should not be left in Wilderness Areas.

 

Take only pictures. Leave only footsteps.

 

Will the next finder please remove this cache, and enter a 'Cache Should be Archived' log.

 

Thanks.") appears to announce a new restriction that many (most?) of us were not aware of. Please visit the topic and provide rationale for your determination that this cache and others placed in Wilderness Areas should be archived.

 

Thanks.


Hopefully, he will post his answer here soon.

 

worldtraveler

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The odd thing is that that cache isn't in a designated wilderness area from what I could see. It's in a "primative area", which is different. Not that it should matter.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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Yes, overzealous is an understatement it appears...

 

It's bad enough areas are outlawed by those who feel it's *their* land, but now we are going to limit ourselves when unneccessary?????

 

Hiking, camping, etc are allowed in such areas, please tell me how a few Geocaches are going to have more impact than those activities...

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Look at the hider's stats, zero finds and one hide. No mention of a logbook. I was asked to go into a remote are and retrieve a gatorade bottle someone left there with a TB. No log, no intention of maintaining it, just dropped the bottle and ran.

 

Might be more here than the where...

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

 

Crimnal, you have a point. However, if it needs to be removed because it's a crappy cache, then that should be the reason stated, not that it's in a *Wilderness Area*.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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quote:
Hiking, camping, etc are allowed in such areas, please tell me how a few Geocaches are going to have more impact than those activities...

 

Yep, hiking, camping are allowed. Also grazing livestock, hunting, rock climbing, horsepacking (ever see the damage horses do to trails?), mining, prospecting, and "treasure hunting" are also accepted uses of wilderness areas. Comparatively, geocaching is quite benign.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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quote:
Don't know of a policy, but there is this thread.

 

In that thread Mtn Man said the ranger told him that they were banned from wilderness areas in Colorado. He didn't say anything about about a blanket ban in all wilderness areas.

 

But isn't it ironic that in a wilderness area, I can bring in 600 head of cattle for a meal, or take a shovel and pick-axe to dig for gold, but I can't hide some Tupperware in a tree stump.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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I know the young lady who placed this cache and I am familiar with the area. I'm going to call the Rangers today and find out what their policy is on caches in this lcation. I'll get back to ya.

 

 

The blanket statement about kinves is silly, I can understand it in some caches, but I doubt that the knife placed here is going to see much activity by childeren. I think comman sense should decide.

 

____________________________________________________________

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

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I don't understand what all of this noise is about, especially the bashing of approvers part. Enough is enough.

 

No where was it said that there is a 'blanket ban' on geocaches in wilderness areas. Where are you getting that from? The cache you linked to? It doesn't state it there. Maybe thats the case in that wilderness area in CA?

 

If I told you that wildlife and game areas are off limits to geocaches here in MI are you going to assume that its worldwide?

 

migo_sig_logo.jpg

__________________________

Caching without a clue....

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Caches in Wilderness Areas in GA and MN are banned also. The Wilderness Ranger in CO was very specific about the fact that they do not want people off the trail if at all possible. Off trail hiking is not banned, but placing a cache out encourages formation of social trails that they don't want. Cachers are suppose to ask for permission to place the cache and it would be interesting to see if the person who place the cache linked above actually did that.

 

I have never heard of any mining without a permit in a Wilderness Area unless it was a site that was grandfathered in before the Wilderness Act. I would be interested in documentation of where that is allowed.

 

The Wilderness Act

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The Wilderness Act

 

Public Law 88-577 (16 U.S.C. 1131-1136)

88th Congress, Second Session

September 3, 1964

 

Seems like 39 years ago yesterday that the Wilderness Act went into effect. And on the National perspective its only 5% of U.S. land mass.

And we have lots of them here in CO, nice places, they are part of the USFS lands but special regulations exist in these areas. These regulations are in place to keep it as it is for many generations to come. There is enough National Forest to place caches in, so why fret when someone tells you to take your box and take a hike. Take a hike and put you box in some other place.

Even though I'm an avid cacher, caches just don't belong in Wilderness Areas. On the map that belongs to this Cache notice the change of color on the map, but is their a color change on this map and from experience only take the color changes as a grain of salt and get a current map from the USFS. For more information on Wilderness Areas look *here*

 

And it's true that horses cause trail damage but there is the 12 heartbeat rule that helps eliminate this problem. But there is no hearbeat rule on the size of the Elk herds and one should see the damage they can cause.

 

Tahosa - Dweller of Mountain Tops.

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OK, as it stands now, caches are considered litter in the Trinity Alps Wilderness area.

 

I am still talking to the rangers, but I doubt if this is going to change. What is interesting is they have never heard of Geocaching, so there is no official policy on this. I am suppose to hear from a supervisor for further discussion.

 

____________________________________________________________

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

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quote:
These regulations are in place to keep it as it is for many generations to come. There is enough National Forest to place caches in, so why fret when someone tells you to take your box and take a hike.

 

It's just silly that they allow so many activities that cause far greater, and often permanent damage in wilderness areas and something relatively harmeless like geocaching is frowned upon.

 

quote:
I have never heard of any mining without a permit in a Wilderness Area unless it was a site that was grandfathered in before the Wilderness Act. I would be interested in documentation of where that is allowed.


 

OK you or I can't just walk in there and open up a mine, but the activity is allowed.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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quote:
In that thread Mtn Man said the ranger told him that they were banned from wilderness areas in Colorado. He didn't say anything about about a blanket ban in all wilderness areas.

 

That was the thread I was thinking of. I misread it at the time to mean that they were banned in all wildreness areas. Hopefully this thread will clarify exactly where and where not there is a ban.

 

pokeanim3.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

It's just silly that they allow so many activities that cause far greater, and often permanent damage in wilderness areas and something relatively harmeless like geocaching is frowned upon.


Beleive me, I don't like it either. I placed one with permission and a short time later was asked to remove it. I did it in an area where social trails would not form and it was almost a quarter of a mile off of the trail. I hoped that would encourage people to take different ways in and out to the cache. I think caches could be properly done in Wilderness Areas, but I wish an FS Ranger would approve any that were allowed to make sure they would be properly done.

 

quote:
OK you or I can't just walk in there and open up a mine, but the activity is allowed.
It is allowed but only under certain circumstances:

 

"Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment."

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quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:

quote:
"...there is the 12 heartbeat rule that helps eliminate this problem..."

Showing my ignorance, what exactly is the "12 heartbeat" rule?


 

The 12 hearbeat rule is just that 12 heartbeats to a group that travels in the Wilderness areas. Eg. 1 rider with 11 stock = 12 hearbeats, or 6 riders and 6 stock. Group size is limited to 12. Dogs are excluded even though they have a big heart.

 

Tahosa - Dweller of Mountain Tops.

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You know, as a little side note I have a confession to make.

 

All of these 'discussions' about where caches are allowed or not allowed, getting approval or not getting approval, too close to this or too close to that, the wilderness must be kept pure so no one should be here, etc., has caused me to be Very reluctant to place a new cache.

 

I've had an ammo box with the sticker on the outside and stuffed with initial goodies in the back of my truck now for probably 4 months.

 

I just haven't had the will (read gonads) to place it because each time I find an interesting area during my travels I wonder, 'who the heck would I need to get permission from for this' or 'am I going to be flamed by this group or that group, or whatever.

 

I'm talking about areas that I know currently don't have a cache so at least I'm not worried about the .1 mile rule. I'm also quite aware of private property restrictions.

 

I know you shouldn't have a vacation cache but I don't want to have to take a couple of hours out of my weekend on someone else's whim either.

 

Has anyone else passed up on a area because it's just not clear who you'd have to ask (read kiss) to get a cache location approved?

 

It's a dang shame that we can't just use our common sense and now we feel like we have to get some bureaucrat's permission in order to take a walk! icon_mad.gif

 

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

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Caches in Wilderness Area in Utah are banned. What is fustrating for me though is the mountains that are only 2 miles from my house are wilderness area. I spent 5 hours hiking up one mountain to place a cache (at the time I did not know about the wilderness rule) and it did not get approved. In the next few years I plan on getting cache box sometime.

 

120878_1400.gif

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There has been quite a bit of confusion regarding the hiding of physical caches in designated Wilderness Areas. We approvers have had an ongoing discussion about this in our private forum. This discussion seems to have cycled between a conservative interpretation of the Wilderness Act and Leave No Trace ethic, and a more liberal interpretation.

 

We have tried to maintain a list of Wilderness Areas known (or alleged) to specifically forbid geocaches:

 

o All 54 Wilderness Areas managed by the National Park Service

o All in Colorado

o All in Georgia

o All in Arizona (unsubstantiated)

o All in Utah (mentioned by DapperDanMan above - more info would be welcome)

o Three Sisters Wilderness in Oregon

o Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness in Minnesota

o All in the Mark Twain National Forest in Missouri

o All in the Los Padres National Forest in California

o All in the Lolo National Forest in Montana

 

We have also found a zoomable map that shows the approximate boundaries of all the Wilderness Areas. Purple areas are managed by the National Park Service and must be avoided.

 

With all these prohibitions, I personally tend to take a conservative view on geocaches in other Wilderness Areas. I had no specific info to cite regarding this cache, but mtnsteve's findings from talking to the rangers (''as it stands now, caches are considered litter'') appear to back up my view. Mtnsteve, please let us know anything else you find.

 

Hemlock - The alternative to purple frownies. frog.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by DapperDanMan:

Caches in Wilderness Area in Utah are banned. What is fustrating for me though is the mountains that are only 2 miles from my house are wilderness area. I spent 5 hours hiking up one mountain to place a cache (at the time I did not know about the wilderness rule) and it did not get approved. In the next few years I plan on getting cache box sometime.

 


 

Do I understand you to say that you have left the container there, and will eventually retrieve it 'in the next few years'? Why the delay? Would you have not returned more quickly if there had been a problem reported?

 

Ron/yumitori

 

---

 

Remember what the dormouse said...

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After reading all this I only have one thing to say:

 

Thank God I have only dealt with reasonable land managers up here so far. They all have been positive about Geocaching. Several would like to encourage it.

 

If I ever loose my mind and decide to move to the lower 48 I give you guys permission to shoot me. icon_eek.gif

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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Is it possible that non-geocaching park rangers are logging on to the website to find unauthorized caches? If so, I wonder if the park officials are required to occassionally log-on to Geocaching.com to see if any caches were hidden in there patch, lately? If the park officials wanted to, they could do a very good job of eliminating all 'hidden loot' type caches. icon_frown.gif Then we could set-up a bunch of virts and see what they think of those. icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:

Good grief....

 

We are once again protecting our wilderness areas for *future generations*, so that they can't use them either.....


 

Unfortunately, this seems to be the truth!

 

Has anyone contacted their political representatives about this and heard back from them?

 

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow action-smiley-076.gif

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Thanks for responding, Hemlock. If the cache owner is no longer active, the cache may be a candidate for adoption; but no facts have been presented to justify archiving at this point.

 

Thanks also for the links. I looked at the one for Colorado and was disappointed, but not surprised, by the discrepancy between the law and a bureaucrat's misrepresentation of it.

What she said:

quote:
...according to Beth Boyst, wilderness manager...“After some discussion, we came to the conclusion that geocaching is a non-permitted use because you are not allowed to leave caches in our wilderness areas,” she says. “By the definition of the Wilderness Act, you are not allowed to leave evidence of your passing behind in wilderness areas, and, with geocaching, evidence is left behind.”
What the Wilderness Act says:
quote:
DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS

 

...An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this chapter an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation...


The Act also requires that wilderness areas
quote:
...shall be administered for the use and enjoyment of the American people in such manner as will leave them unimpaired for future use and enjoyment as wilderness, and so as to provide for the protection of these areas, the preservation of their wilderness character, and for the gathering and dissemination of information regarding their use and enjoyment as wilderness.
Geocaching, when practiced responsibly, is compatible with these requirements.

 

If the above source is correct, it appears the current policy banning caches in Colorado wilderness areas came about as a result of "some discussion" based on an inaccurate interpretation. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

worldtraveler

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quote:
By the definition of the Wilderness Act, you are not allowed to leave evidence of your passing behind in wilderness areas, and, with geocaching, evidence is left behind.”

 

I've read the entire act and never interpereted it that way. Besides, horse packing is specifically allowed. Horses leave a little evidence of their passing behind, no? Not to mention the damage and erosion they cause on trails.

 

And I won't even bring up mining, which is an accepted use under some circumstances.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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I understand what you're saying, worldtraveler, but there is no point in second-guessing the bureaucrats. They may be misguided at times, but just because we don't agree with a law or the reason behind it, there's no justification for breaking that law.

quote:
If the cache owner is no longer active, the cache may be a candidate for adoption; but no facts have been presented to justify archiving at this point.
I disagree. mtnsteve asked the rangers for permission, and was denied. That justifies archiving in my book.

 

You quoted part of the Wilderness Act, and highlighted a few parts to argue your point. Allow me to take the same paragraph, and highlight some different parts:

quote:
Definition of Wilderness

 

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable;


This only proves that the act is sufficiently vague to allow different people to interpret it in different ways.

 

I don't understand why we're arguing about less than 5% of the land mass. Surely there are plenty of places in the other 95% to hide our caches.

 

Hemlock - The alternative to purple frownies. frog.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Hemlock:

There has been quite a bit of confusion regarding the hiding of physical caches in designated Wilderness Areas. ....

 

We have tried to maintain a list of Wilderness Areas known (or alleged) to specifically forbid geocaches:

 

o All 54 Wilderness Areas http://nwps.wilderness.net/advresults.cfm?STATE=AllTypes&SOURCE=form&AGENCY=National%20Park%20Service&ACREAGEOPERATOR=AllTypes&YEARDESIGNATEDOPERATOR=AllTypes

o All in http://www.independentdaily.com/art.php?uid=778&date=2003-06-09

.....


very nice list, it is good to know this. However, I do not see where it says all of the Colorado wilderness is prohibited. The links mention the NPS controlled areas and a few in summit county. This is not ALL of Colorado.

Personally, I am for the ban in wilderness areas, but it is important to know where the ban is from.

If there exists a document stating the 'full ban' in Colorado please reference it.

thanks

 

PS I know what mtn-man said about what the fs worker said. No offense to mm but I consider that hear-say.

off topic: On trail is nice, but climbers are elsewhere.

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quote:
Originally posted by Hemlock:

...where man himself is a visitor who does not remain.


Geocachers are visitors that do not remain after they place or find the cache.

quote:
without permanent improvements or human habitation...

Geocaches are not permanent, and are not necessarily improvements. They certainly aren't used for human habitation.

quote:
...with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable

A geocache is substantially unnoticeable (unless you are looking for it)

 

Wilderness areas are used for many things, including hiking. Geocaching is hiking to a specific point and letting others know you made it there by signing a logbook. Would you rather we spray-paint 'Kilroy was here' on a rock, or use a pencil and paper?

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by DapperDanMan:

Caches in Wilderness Area in Utah are banned. What is fustrating for me though is the mountains that are only 2 miles from my house are wilderness area.


Could you post coords / hints for your Lone Peak stash? I plan on going to the area soon, could as well fetch your ammobox.

The USFS main point has been about leaving some objects behind. They didn't object to off trail hiking, and virtuals in the wilderness were never in any danger (same holds for NPs).

What beats me is that the caches in *substantially man-altered* areas within wilderness are not approved / forced into virtuals. Come on, there is nothing 100% pristine about these areas!

The mountain where DapperDanMan got a denial already has 2 BM disks and a summit log (and until recently American flag flew over it too).

Please check my 5/12/03 entry on Neffs Cave cache. There is a metal grate, the creek has been diverted, yet the "pristine, no trace" argument is made all the same.

But we have to be *extremely* cautious here in Utah because Wasatch-Cache NF moved against caches on *all* Forest Service lands (Check this virtual set up to lobby the USFS officials to change their mind)

 

[This message was edited by MOCKBA on September 04, 2003 at 01:31 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

quote:
Don't know of a policy, but there is this thread.

 

In that thread Mtn Man said the ranger told him that they were banned from wilderness areas in Colorado. He didn't say anything about about a blanket ban in all wilderness areas.

 

But isn't it ironic that in a wilderness area, I can bring in 600 head of cattle for a meal, or take a shovel and pick-axe to dig for gold, but I can't hide some Tupperware in a tree stump.

 

_"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm_


 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhh!!!

 

This topic is near and dear to me. The willingness of SOME people to police the affairs of groups that they don't understand, or that don't have a state congressional lobby never ceases to amaze me. The reactionary nature of geocaching's self regulation amazes me as well.

 

How many of you have seen the impact of the @##$$% pack stock in the backcountry. The areas where these people camp are appalling! The people who don't have to hump 60lbs or more of camping gear, on their backs, have no appreciation for the rewards of being that far away from civilization!

 

I have maintained caches of useful items in the Sierras for over 15 years now. I am not the only person who does this. How does that differ from geocaching? Not bloody much!

 

Before all this crap about wilderness areas started, I hid 4 caches in the Recess Valley near my home in Mammoth. I did this to share some particularly beautiful places with fellow geocachers. How is THAT wrong? I never submitted the caches, because I chose to wade through the bureaucratic red tape for approval. Still no answer. Yet some pack train a$$ can leave literally tons of crap behind in areas that they frequent?

 

SO, ONCE AND FOR ALL, WHAT THE HECK IS TRUELY OFF LIMITS AND WHAT ISN'T????!!!!

 

Snicon_razz.gificon_razz.gifgans

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Sacred cows make the best hamburger....Mark Twain.

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Was wondering with the mention of Mammoth. Arrowhead is a decent place too. All that area is beautiful and I miss it. Wish I was still out there. It seems I got more into the outdoors stuff after I left there... icon_frown.gif

 

Edit: I meant that area there near Bishop. I had a friend who was from that area. Arrowhead is nice too, but it's several hundred miles south...lol I was thinking the right place, but putting the wrong name with it.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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quote:
Originally posted by Hemlock:

quote:
Originally posted by Snoogans:

SO, ONCE AND FOR ALL, WHAT THE HECK IS TRUELY OFF LIMITS AND WHAT ISN'T????!!!!


That's something we would all like to know. The list I posted above is all we have to go by at this time.

 

Hemlock - The alternative to purple frownies. http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ws/emoticons/frog.gif


 

Thanks, I have been keeping counsel with SoCal Admin on this matter. Any news is appreciated.

 

The owner of Vermilion Valley Resort is a friend/GeoMinion of mine who wants to promote geocaching in the area as a regular activity. That is how I discovered this great sport. He holds a lease from the forest service to do business, so we have a foot in the door for approval. If we get it, he is considering some specials on services just for geocachers.

 

Snicon_razz.gificon_razz.gifgans

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Sacred cows make the best hamburger....Mark Twain.

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

 

Wilderness areas are used for many things, including hiking. Geocaching is hiking to a specific point and letting others know you made it there by signing a logbook. Would you rather we spray-paint 'Kilroy was here' on a rock, or use a pencil and paper?

 


 

I'll take Door #3, Monte...

 

Folks, what some of you are missing is that an imperfect system does not grant anyone else the option to make it even less so.

 

Just as you cannot justify your new cache based on what has been approved in the past, you cannot justify geocaches in the wilderness based on other uses currently allowed. Those old, no-longer-legal caches are grandfathered in, and so too are most all of the activities you are using as comparisons.

 

Geocaches in wilderness areas will stand or fall on their own merits, not on what else is currently legal. Arguing the 'real' meaning of the Wilderness Act on these forums will not change that. If you wish the restrictions to change, work with the folks with the power to change them, not the administration of Geocaching.com. It's not their regulation.

 

Ron/yumitori

 

---

 

Remember what the dormouse said...

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