cache rating

[ifranz]

I just returned from a climbing trip where I created a cache. I feel that it a 5 difficulty and terrain, I’d like other peoples opinion.

 

click here for the cache page

 

Here are a few other points to consider:

 

At minimum it takes 3 hours for a veteran climber to safely climb to the top. The max speed you could achieve is 500 ft per hour. It could easily take twice as long for a climber not familiar with the area.

 

Planning the climb takes extensive research and preparation; you have to research each pitch that you will be climbing and have the appropriate climbing equipment.

 

The cache is out in the “open” but go 5 feet in any direction from the cache and you’ll fall 50-1000 feet. We were watching hawks surfing the breeze 200 feet below us. It’s a very unique area.

 

The cache can’t be reached by an individual - unless they had a death wish

It requires that a team of two or more to coordinate their communication and movement to maintain safety.

 

Lead climb (climbing where there is no support from above) takes a tremendous amount of physical ability, specialized knowledge, and hundreds of dollars in climbing equipment. A cacher with no climbing experience could easily spend a year learning how to safely attempt this cache.

 

I feel that from a safety standpoint alone the cache warrants a 5/5. I completely support maintaining high standards, but I don’t want anyone to have any misconceptions about what they’re getting into.

 

[This message was edited by ifranz on August 04, 2002 at 06:49 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by ifranz on August 04, 2002 at 09:56 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by ifranz on August 05, 2002 at 10:46 AM.]

[+mrplug]

Dude,

 

I don't know what the problem is. I could find this one blindfolded with one hand tied behind my back and no gpsr.

[mtnsteve]

I have had questions like this on my level 4/5's as well, I used the "ratings" page to check, then adjust as I think necessary...

http://www.clayjar.com/gcrs/

 

I would think it would be a 1/5...the terrain difficulty is obviously a 5 and the cache is right there when you do finally get to it.

 

I get confused too because the "overall difficulty" sounds like it would combine the two rating's, but it doesn't seem to.

 

____________________________________________________________

It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

[+OzzieSan]

Well I would say 1/5 just because the cache is out in the open.

 

"Locating the ammo box is simple once your there b/c the summit is about the size of a small bedroom and the cache is out in the open."

 

1 being difficulty in actually finding the cache and 5 being the difficulty of the terrain.

 

5/5 would lead me to think I would have to search extensively for the cache after arriving at the cache location using specialized equipment.

 

But thats just me reading the rating guidelines.

 

[ifranz]

I think that the difficulty rating needs more definition. According to clayjar’s scale I think it qualifies as a 5 b/c the cache is “A serious mental or physical challenge.” and “ Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.”

 

You’d kill yourself trying to find this one without the skills and equipment to climb there. As for the mental challenge, add 1000 feet of exposure to the most simple climb and it becomes mental challenging very quickly.

[scooterj]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ifranz:

I think that the difficulty rating needs more definition. According to clayjar’s scale I think it qualifies as a 5 b/c the cache is “A serious mental or physical challenge.” and “ Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.”

 

You’d kill yourself trying to find this one without the skills and equipment to climb there. As for the mental challenge, add 1000 feet of exposure to the most simple climb and it becomes mental challenging very quickly.

---

 

Yeah, but it's only the terrain that requires the specialized skill and equipment. In order for the difficulty to be a 5, one would have to have special skills or equipment to actually find it after arriving at the cache site.

 

The terrain rating rates what it takes to get there, the difficulty rating rates what it takes to find it once you get there. This sounds like a cut-and-dry 1/5 cache to me.

[+culpc]

I'd vote 5/5

 

Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son!

[Team Dragon]

If you get to the site and it's very hard to find, then the difficult goes up. If you get there and it's sitting out in the open, then it shouldn't have a high difficulty rating.

 

A true 5/5 would be to climb three peaks, and using surveying equipment, triangulate the position of the cache on a 4th peak. The cache would then be hidden inside a hollow or fake stump in the middle of a bush.

[ifranz]

Cache #1 Terrain 5 difficulty 1

 

The cacher must climb 10,000 flights of stairs to the top of a giant tower where the cache is located. Food, water, and a cot will be provided by magical geocaching sherpas as needed by the cacher. The terrain is insane, but difficulty is limited to the cacher knowing how to climb steps and having the endurance to do so.

 

Cache #2 Terrain 1 difficulty 5

 

The cacher parks his/her car and walks three feet into a small air-conditioned room containing a lazyboy recliner where they sit and have to solve 10 problems from the “mensa problem solving riddles – deluxe edition” to receive the cache. Snacks and naps will be provided as requested by the cacher. The cache requires knowledge not physical endurance or ability.

 

Cache #3 Terrain 5 difficulty 5

 

A Terrain 5 difficulty 5 would require both skills, I believe that South Peak Summit does just that. The 5 terrain is not an issue, as for difficulty:

 

There are 274 routes in the guidebook for the South peak summit area. Which ones do you choose to get to the top?

 

Each pitch requires an incredible amount of problem solving. You have to mentally track the amount of rope you have left so that you can anchor to the wall and the rest of your team can climb safely.

 

You are oftentimes out of visual contact with the other climbers on your team and have to rely on verbal commands shouted from 100 feet away.

 

What equipment should you take? Where do you place protection as you climb? You will probably be carrying 15-30 different devices with unique properties for stopping a fall, which one do you choose.

 

How should you orient the protection devices in the cracks, you have to take into consideration the line of the rope and how it will load if you fall.

 

You have to answer these questions while standing on tiny rock nubs hundreds of feet in the air, holding onto the rock with one hand while removing gear from your rack and placing it as you climb. Your also carrying all of the equipment you will need for the climb so add about 10-15 pounds on your back as you do this.

 

Scootererj – the climb is the cache site as I see it, and it’s all about problem solving under severely stressful conditions.

 

-ifranz

[+OzzieSan]

Well then why did you ask? Seems like you are very proud of your 5/5 so leave it at that.

[mtnsteve]

Not to rain on your parade, but......

 

I and many of my friends occasionally climb 5.3 without ropes, yes even 3 pitches of it. I understand what you are trying to say, but try seeing it this way......

 

If this is rated at a level 5/5 because of 3 pitches of 5.3, what would you rate it if it was 10 pitches of 5.14b, with a couple pitches of A4 thrown in the mix?? If climbing gear is required it is usually assumed that the person using it knows the difference between a #4 Friend, a Bashie and a Beta.

 

I put a cache on Mt Shasta last winter that was rated at 2.5/4..I got some flack from some folks (they never even went for it) because it required skis/snowshoes and a certain amount of mountaineering experience and they thought it should be a level 5...my response was ......."I have a hard time putting a cache that you can ski to, in the same category as one on the summit"....

 

The 2.5 rating was because the cache was rather well hidden in the top of a snag and because of the constant snow fall...I had a picture of my partner placing the cache with a warning that looking at the photo would lower the difficulty rating from a 2.5 to a 1.

 

I applaud your higher level caches, I wish more folks around here would do the same.

Keep up the level 5 caches!

 

____________________________________________________________

It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

 

[This message was edited by mtnsteve on August 04, 2002 at 07:21 PM.]

[ifranz]

Fair enough team 5-oh, maybe I was picking a fight with this topic. I suppose I think that cachers often seem to think that difficulty is only a function of exotic trivia or the ability to search an area for hours to find an obscurely hidden cache. Bushwhacking and turning over every stone demonstrates persistence and endurance but I don’t see it as a required component for defining difficulty.

[+briansnat]

People seem to confuse difficulty with terrain.

In short, the terrain rating tells you how hard it is to get to the cache site and the difficulty rating measures how hard it is to find the cache.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

[+JAR]

You're obviously determined to rate this as a 5/5. Your choice. But I think it's a clear 1/5 for the reasons already stated by the previous posters.

 

quote:

---

Don't even consider this one unless...if you fall without protection you can, and probably will die...Planning the climb takes extensive research and preparation...death wish...a tremendous amount of physical ability, specialized knowledge, and hundreds of dollars in climbing equipment...You’d kill yourself trying to find this one...

---

 

You're obviously very proud of your climbing prowess to resort to such bombast. I'm glad you enjoy the sport. Believe it or not there are other geocachers who understand the demands of technical climbing. The fact remains that all of the difficulty is encountered during the "reaching the cache site" phase; no physical ability or skull sweat is required once the climber summits. Similarly, a cache that required scuba gear to reach, or a vacuum suit, or was located on the Artctic ice pack, would all rate a 5 for terrain. But if the cache itself is obvious and easily accessible once the cacher arrives at the location, it's a 1 for difficulty.

 

quote:

---

The coordinates listed are for the parking lot where you hike in to the climbing area.

---

 

Ah, there's your problem. If the cache coordinates were for the top of the peak -- where the actual cache is located -- the rating issue would be clear.

 

quote:

---

I didn't place the ammo box, so please make this a take nothing leave nothing cache

---

 

So you're simply directing other cachers to a location. This isn't a traditional container-based cache at all. You didn't put that ammo box there and you're not acting as the cache owner to stock it and maintain it as needed. Since you just want others to reach a specific destination, this might be better listed as a virtual cache:

 

From the geocaching glossary:

 

quote:

---

So a virtual cache means ... It's the location that is the cache itself. Nothing is normally traded, except photos and experiences.

---

 

I'm not attempting to downplay the difficulty of the climb; it sounds interesting and challenging. A 5 rating for terrain should be plenty; not many will attempt this one!

[+Belleterre]

Reasoning already explained by others.

[ifranz]

Excellent point mtnsteve…

 

One thing... 3 pitches of anything with exposure deserve protection. I wear a bike helmet too…(when cycling) . just my two cents on safety.

 

quote:

---

If this is rated at a level 5/5 because of 3 pitches of 5.3, what would you rate it if it was 10 pitches of 5.14b, with a couple pitches of A4 thrown in the mix?? If climbing gear is required it is usually assumed that the person using it knows the difference between a #4 Friend, a Bashie and a Beta.

---

 

I think that I’d rate anything requiring leading a 5/5. I’ve seen several rappelling caches that are rated 5/5, do I see it as a 5 difficulty? No, but I think it fits for the majority of the cachers out there. I think I see the 5/5 as a big warning sign saying that the cache is way beyond the traditional ammo box hidden in a tree stump and potentially fatal without the right skill and equipment. I would rather see ratings err on the side of caution.

 

So where does it fall? (no pun intended) I agree it’s not the most difficult cache in the world by any stretch of the imagination, but for the masses it’s a very difficult and dangerous cache. I think a 1 for difficulty is way off base.

[+Bluespreacher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ifranz:

I just returned from a climbing trip where I created a cache. I feet that it a 5 difficulty and terrain, I’d like other peoples opinion.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=31249&Nocache=0.7055475

 

Here are a few other points to consider:

 

At minimum it takes 3 hours for a veteran climber to safely climb to the top. The max speed you could achieve is 500 ft per hour. It could easily take twice as long for a climber not familiar with the area.

 

Planning the climb takes extensive research and preparation; you have to research each pitch that you will be climbing and have the appropriate climbing equipment.

 

The cache is out in the “open” but go 5 feet in any direction from the cache and you’ll fall 50-1000 feet. We were watching hawks surfing the breeze 200 feet below us. It’s a very unique area.

 

The cache can’t be reached by an individual - unless they had a death wish

It requires that a team of two or more to coordinate their communication and movement to maintain safety.

 

Lead climb (climbing where there is no support from above) takes a tremendous amount of physical ability, specialized knowledge, and hundreds of dollars in climbing equipment. A cacher with no climbing experience could easily spend a year learning how to safely attempt this cache.

 

I feel that from a safety standpoint alone the cache warrants a 5/5. I completely support maintaining high standards, but I don’t want anyone to have any misconceptions about what they’re getting into.

 

[This message was edited by ifranz on August 04, 2002 at 06:49 PM.]

---

 

Here's how I see it after reading the info: It's an easy find, once you get there. Getting there is of course, a real booger. From what I read, a 5 for terrain means that special equipment is needed ( climbing gear, scuba gear, etc,). A 5 for difficulty means that special problem solving skills are required. These might be Calculus, Astro Physics, FORTRAN, or Mayan mythology. Maybe all of the above.

 

Some like the really hard terrain, some like devilish problems of the mental sort. Some like a combo of both. Some like me are under-equipped for either of those!

 

Keep on Caching,

 

Bluespreacher

 

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

[ifranz]

I am showing it off a bit. It’s the first real multipitch climb that I’ve done (I’ve been top roping for years) And I’m still swimming in the excitement of the experience. I can’t wait to get back down there to climb again!

 

I debated on the same issue of virtual or traditional. I didn’t want to post the coordinates b/c I wouldn’t want anyone who just downloaded waypoints to try and bushwhach there way up there and get stuck. To log it is virtual, but there’s a cache up there. So I opted for a “normal cache” b/c you can sign the log.

 

I suppose I really believe that there is a tremendous amount of problem solving required to get up there and that it easily ranks above a 1….

 

- ifranz

 

[This message was edited by ifranz on August 04, 2002 at 08:43 PM.]

[+georgeandmary]

A 5/5 would require a climb and then a metal detector. If it's out in the open it's a 1. Even if there are 200 plus ways to get there.

 

There are an infinite way's to get to any cache you want depending on where you start. There is a cache 4 blocks south of me. Theoretically, I could get there by going north a really really really long way.

 

If you want to go back up and hide it under a rock I can see bumping it up to a 1.5/5

 

george

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

[+Lil Devil]

Please do a spell check on the cache description.

 

For one thing, 'straight up' is not spelled 'strait up'.

 

Oh and I would call it a 1/5.

 

Lil Devil

[mtnsteve]

Your first lead.... now I understand the exuberance, I should have seen it.

 

Congratulations! ! ! a 5.3 or 4 on lead is like 5.9 or 10 on plastic....

 

 

It's still 1/5 though.......

 

 

and I do wear a helmet....lol

 

____________________________________________________________

It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

[ifranz]

I’m going to drop this one a couple of points on the difficulty scale. I have to admit it’s not a 5 by geocaching standards. It did push me mentally and physically to my limits - I’ll call it a personal 5

 

-ifranz

[+niskibum]

If you rate this one a five/five with the cache out in the open clearly visible, what would you rate a cache placed right next to it that is camoflaged and requires a two hour search to find? Terrain and picking a route have absolutly nothing to do with how well hidden the cache is.

 

On the other hand, I can say without a doubt that you will never find me signing that logbook. If God had intended me to climb mountains he wouldn't have made chair lifts and helicopters.

[+JAR]

ifranz,

 

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. You worked hard to achieve something difficult, and I understand your enthusiasm. Congrats on the climb, and I hope each one in the future brings you as much pleasure and feeling of accomplishment.

 

Now let's try a little thought experiment. Imagine you have just reached the top of the south peak as you describe on the cache page...and you discover the following:

 

The ammo box is welded to the top of a 3-meter metal pole embedded in the rock. The pole is completely smooth, about 8cm in diameter. When you get up to the box, you discover that it is sealed with a combination lock.

 

There are four clues to help you determine the combination. These clues are all readily accessible from the cache location.

 

Clue number one is a simple geometry puzzle based on the shadow cast by the pole (it makes an effective gnomon) at local noon. Of course the shadow points to a different place on different days. I hope you're here on the right day. Oh, those aren't just scratches in the rock -- they mean something? With your watch and compass handy, you figure this one out in no time.

 

Clue number two is written right on the side of the cache box; you just didn't notice it at first because you didn't have your polarized glasses on. Why, that's plain old Morse code! And it spells out a line from a famous poem by William Butler Yeats. I'm sure you know the one.

 

Clue number three is chiseled into the stone somewhere on the summit, and you stumble across it before very long. Nothing hidden, not time-dependent, this one is sitting right out in the open waiting for you. A giveaway! As long as you recall how to solve incomplete elliptic integrals of the third kind...

 

Clue number four isn't on the summit at all. No, it's right across the way on the north peak. Unfortunately it's reflectorized, only readable after dark by shining a powerful light across the way. Since it's totally unreadable during the daytime, you'll have to camp up here over night (unless you want to try that descent after dark... Don't even think about it!). Your high school German is a little rusty, but you can still chuckle over this ribald limerick. Now what year was Kaiser Wilhelm's coronation again?

 

Of course nobody would ever design a cache that made you solve a variety of puzzles. One that required mental and physical agility. One that might require special preparation to find or open. One that might only be accessible on certain days, or at certain times. One that might require several visits to complete. Would they?

 

I hope you see my point. An unlocked ammo box sitting out in plain sight is a 1 for difficulty.

[ifranz]

Jar,

 

I feel that the level of Logical-Mathematical, Spatial, and Bodily-Kinesthetic problem solving skills required to find the cache rank the cache above a 1.

 

I will respectfully agree to disagree.

 

I think a rubric for rating caches based on Gardner's Theory of multiple intelligences might solve my rating dilemma. Maybe in my spare time…..lol

 

btw - I’d love to try that cache, the reflector idea is fantastic I’ve been thinking about a complex Halloween multicache and your idea would be a perfect (and spooky) way to require that the user cache at night – awesome!

 

I’m going out to buy some reflective tape…

 

-ifranz

[+JAR]

"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."

 

quote:

---

I feel that the level of Logical-Mathematical, Spatial, and Bodily-Kinesthetic problem solving skills required to find the cache rank the cache above a 1. (Boldface is mine.)

---

 

But the cache isn't at all hard to find. By your own description it's sitting right out in the open.

 

This thread raises an interesting question. If the "Difficulty" rating applied to reaching the cache, you'd certainly be correct. From what I've seen, most cachers have decided that the Difficulty/Terrain ratings translate into "How hard is it once you're there/How hard is it to get there." Granted, nowhere (that I could find) is that precise interpretation spelled out. I don't know if that was Jeremy's intent, and different cache hiders do seem to interpret them differently. Perhaps the titles "Difficulty" and "Terrain" are ambiguous. But that's the common usage, as reflected in ClayJar's rating page and the comments of other cachers above. (Yes, I know, by that interpretation it would make more sense if the numbers were reversed; but like many aspects of geocaching, the original concepts have been stretched and adapted as the popularity of geocaching has grown.) By this "common law" standard, your cache is a major challenge to reach (climbing the peak) but dead easy once you arrive.

 

Nobody is doubting the physical and mental effort required to reach the cache. (Although niskibum has a point. Why not just chopper up?)

 

I also meant to comment on one of your other points:

 

quote:

---

I didn’t want to post the coordinates b/c I wouldn’t want anyone who just downloaded waypoints to try and bushwhach there way up there and get stuck.

---

 

As far as I'm concerned that's strictly a case of caveat emptor. Sure, some cachers just download a bunch of waypoints without reading the cache descriptions or plotting the coordinates on a map. Occasionally they might bite off more than they can chew.

 

And lastly the reflector-at-night idea. I deserve no credit for that one, it's been used on several caches such as After Dark. If you search you'll find several threads about caching at night and caches designed to be hunted at night. Sometimes the darkness serves a different purpose. There are an amazing number of creative people out there hiding caches. The more cache descriptions I read (often from comments in forums), the more I'm surprised and intrigued by the clever things people have done.

[+OzzieSan]

Obviously you had you mind set on rating this a 5 from the beginning. I see you have dropped the rating to a 3. So are you now agreeing that the cache is not a 5? And if so why not make it a 1 as the posts have indicated it should be? Don’t get me wrong it’s your cache (almost) and you can do with it as the real owner see fit. But as has been stated it is a 1/5 cut and dry.

 

“(hmm if it looks like a cache and smells like a cache?)”.

 

(hmm if it looks like a 1 and smells like a 1?).

 

“I feel that from a safety standpoint alone the cache warrants a 5/5. I completely support maintaining high standards, but I don’t want anyone to have any misconceptions about what they’re getting into.”

 

When I go on a cache hunt where the terrain is rated 5 I know exactly what I am getting into. It tells me I am going to have to put in some extra prep time to compete the hunt and use some specialized knowledge/equipment. It also means I better read the description top to bottom and understand what the hazards are. If the description is botched and does not provide enough detail then it is my decision to proceed or scrub the hunt when I get to the location.

 

“There are 274 routes in the guidebook for the South peak summit area. Which ones do you choose to get to the top?”

 

Whatever number the guidebook says you can always add 1 to it! And if I ever get out there I will attempt to use the 1.

 

“I didn't place the ammo box, so please make this a take nothing leave nothing cache, the log is great take a few minutes and read some of the entries.”

 

“To log the cache email me the letters printed on the two stickers on the top and sides of the ammo box.”

 

Do you provide any type of maintenance for this cache?

 

I think your question should have been (Is this cache traditional or virtual?)

 

” Virtual Caches

A virtual cache is a cache that exists in a form of an object at a location which was already there. Depending on the cache "hider," a virtual cache could be to answer a question about an item at a location, something seen at that location, etc. The reward for these caches is the location itself and sharing information about your visit.

1. A virtual cache must be of a physical object that can be referenced through Lat/Lon coordinates. That object should be semi-permanent to permanent. Objects in motion (such as people, vehicles) do not count as a virtual cache, unless that item can be adequately tracked and updated on the web site (For example, a link to a tracker for a vehicle would be ok). If I post the cache today someone else should be able to find it tomorrow.

 

A trail is a trail, a beach is a beach, a view is a view; but a trail/beach/view is NOT a virtual cache. A cache has to be a specific distinct GPS target - not something large like a mountain top or a park, however special those locations are.

2. A virtual cache must be novel, meaning of interest to other players. Items that would be in a coffee table book are good examples. A flagpole, manhole cover, tree, etc are poor examples (with an exception: A flagpole at a memorial or a particular novel flagpole would be ok, or an especially unique tree would count). If you don't know what is appropriate, post to the forums first.

3. Virtual caches are not commercial. For example (but not exclusive), a coffee house, pizza parlor, ice cream shop are not acceptable.

4. There should be a question that only the visitor to that location will be able to answer. The questions should be difficult enough that it cannot be answered unless you physically visit the spot.

5. A photo is acceptable way to verify a find, or an email to the owner with the answer. In *no* cases should answers be posted in the logs.

6. Understand that although the virtual cache is not something you physically maintain, you must maintain your virtual cache's web page and respond to inquiries. You should also return to the web site at least once a month to show you are still active. Virtual caches posted and "abandoned" will be archived by the site.”

 

I don’t think I have ever seen a virtual cache with a 5 terrain rating that would be kind of cool. Anyone know of any 5 terrain virtuals?

 

I am happy to see your cache added to the database and am in no way trying to discourage you from hiding caches I was simply replying to your question.

 

[+Runaround]

This is pretty straitforward. Look at the cache rating system on the entry form.

 

Yes the cache is physically and mentally challenging to reach, but once you're there, it's easy.

 

Don't underestimate the mental challenges of the terrain rating. Terrain is more than physical prowess and training in specialized outdoor skills.

 

If you want the difficulty to be higher, run back up there on your lunch break and cover the box with some leaves and sticks.

 

Now where did I park my car???????