Caching in US Forests illegal

[Guest Geezer]

Probably old hat, but I just heard about this thing called "geocaching," and I thought that people should know that leaving items behind on US Forest property (including wilderness areas) is illegal:

 

From Title 36 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 261, Section 10 :

 

The following [is] prohibited:

 

(e) Abandoning any personal property.

[Guest Geezer]

OK, so this is an HTML-dumb website. The URL for the regulation in question is:

 

http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=36&PART=261&SECTION=10&TYPE=TEXT

[Guest mrgigabyte]

quote:

---

OK, so this is an HTML-dumb website. The URL for the regulation in question is:

---

 

Not so. Click Here for the instructions.

[Guest navdog]

Date Registered: 25 September 2001

Status: Geocacher

Total Posts: 2

Current Email: Not available.

Homepage: http://

Occupation: professional malcontent

Location:

Interests:

ICQ Number

 

I THINK HIS PROFILE SAYS IT ALL.

[Guest jeremy]

Abandoned property, meaning "to leave without intending to return"? I don't think by definition caches are indeed abandoned. They are certainly maintained by both the owner and the community of geocachers.

 

But to be less trite, all the documentation (at least on the geocaching.com site) asks that geocachers seek permission before placing a cache in public or private lands. Many folks do this.

 

And yes. This is old hat.

 

Jeremy

 

Ps. Your link seems to work fine.

[Guest c.mathis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer:

OK, so this is an HTML-dumb website.

---

 

Web sites can't be dumb. Only inept people can be dumb.

[Guest c.mathis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer:

OK, so this is an HTML-dumb website.

---

 

Web sites can't be dumb. Only inept people can be dumb.

[Guest CaptHawke]

From the American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000

 

abandon

1. To withdraw one's support or help from, especially in spite of duty, allegiance, or responsibility; desert: abandon a friend in trouble. 2. To give up by leaving or ceasing to operate or inhabit, especially as a result of danger or other impending threat: abandoned the ship. 3.To surrender one's claim to, right to, or interest in; give up entirely. See synonyms at relinquish. 4. To cease trying to continue; desist from: abandoned the search for the missing hiker. 5. To yield (oneself) completely, as to emotion.

 

A geocacher has, in no way, surrendered his claim to, right to, or interest in a cache.

If fact he has actually generated increased interest in the cache. So Geezer, explain how your posting is nothing more than flame bait.

 

Cephas 'I'm no lawyer, but I play one while Geocaching' Hawke

Bedford, NH

 

 

[This message has been edited by CaptHawke (edited 25 September 2001).]

[Guest Robereno]

Hi,

Welcome to geocaching and thanks for pointing that out. Yes it has been discussed a little here.

 

Let me refer you to a page on this web site: http://www.geocaching.com/articles/making.asp

 

Along with other things it states:

· Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You may be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks.

 

Thanks for dropping by!

 

[Guest Robereno]

Hi,

Welcome to geocaching and thanks for pointing that out. Yes it has been discussed a little here.

 

Let me refer you to a page on this web site: http://www.geocaching.com/articles/making.asp

 

Along with other things it states:

· Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You may be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks.

 

Thanks for dropping by!

 

[Guest Geezer]

"A geocacher has, in no way, surrendered his claim to, right to, or interest in a cache."

 

According to the US Forest Service (who administers most wilderness areas), "abandoned personal items" are any items left unattended for a period of more than 48 hours. After that period, the original owner has no right to the property in question, and, in fact, is in violation of the law.

 

I don't care about "geocaches" left in other areas, but I'd hate to see our wilderness areas get cluttered with things like containers, cans, what have you, for the enjoyment of a select few. Nothing would bum me more on a gorgeous day in the Bridger Wilderness (for example) than to find somebody's geocache on the summit of a mountin that I've just climbed.

[Guest Iron Chef]

hing would bum me more on a gorgeous day in the Bridger Wilderness (for example) than to find somebody's geocache on the summit of a mountin that I've just climbed.

---

 

Don't be silly. That is not how the game is played out. Before you skip all reason and proceed to the third degree, please think about educating yourself on the topic of which you are attacking.

 

First of all, geocaches don't "litter" the earth like some kind of deadly virus. Secondly, they are never out in the open (that would be too dadgum easy and people would lose interest quickly). And thirdly, cluttered is a bad choice of wording as it makes it sound like there are several of these things within a short distance of each other. Each geocache presents a unique challange to the finder.

 

My suggestion to you is that you try out something before making rash decisions on it's validity in the world. Sorry if I was a bit harsh, but your posts, Geezer, really got to me in a bad way.

 

------------------

-Iron Chef

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

agefive.com/geocache/ ~ Fe-26

Lets Drive Fast and Eat Cheese!

[Guest CaptHawke]

(Hawke to self: Remember MaryPat King and bite your lip!)

[Guest Geezer]

"Don't be silly. That is not how the game is played out. Before you skip all reason and proceed to the third degree, please think about educating yourself on the topic of which you are attacking."

 

It wasn't my intention to attack geocaching so much as to voice my concern about keeping it out of wilderness areas. That's all. BLM land, for example, would be fine. But even you admit that "each geocache presents a unique challange to the finder." What better challenge than to hide one twenty miles from the nearest road within a wilderness area?

 

Given our ability to act individually in mob numbers, I can imagine a scenario in which, within ten or twenty years, PVC pipes and tupperware containers could become commonplace trash in out-of-the-way places.

 

Whole petrified trees were removed from Yellowstone (and other parks), a little piece at a time, by individuals like us who couldn't see the effect they were having at the mob level. It's to prevent this sort of activity that certain regulations exist regarding the use of wilderness areas, and one of those regulations is that we aren't supposed to leave caches in them.

 

The only reason I mentioned this in the first place is that I heard today of someone's plans to place a geocache in the Bridger Wilderness. This is a pristine dry environment in which something like a PVC pipe will last ~ 100 years (or more). When only a few people are doing it, then I guess it's no big deal, but the way we are, I can imagine that a lot of people will be doing it pretty soon, and then it could get out of hand.

 

Sorry if I offended, but that's the way I see it.

[Guest Robereno]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CaptHawke:

(Hawke to self: Remember MaryPat King and bite your lip!)

 

---

 

(Rob to self: ?OUCH, I think I pulled a muscle!?)

[Guest martinp13]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer:

According to the US Forest Service (who administers most wilderness areas), "abandoned personal items" are any items left unattended for a period of more than 48 hours. After that period, the original owner has no right to the property in question, and, in fact, is in violation of the law.

---

 

So does that mean that a ranger watchtower that isn't visited every two days has to be torn down?

 

------------------

> Martin

Magellan 330 (1.56/WAAS enabled!)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo !

[Guest Geezer]

"So does that mean that a ranger watchtower that isn't visited every two days has to be torn down?"

 

No.

 

Forest Service Wilderness Manual

 

However, I think the Forest Service is in the process of decommissioning and dismantling its existing ranger stations located within wilderness areas...

[Guest AZMark]

It's my pretty land, and I want to keep it that way for me.

 

Wilderness areas, get way more abuse from ATV'ers than they will see from cachers in 1000 years. No ATV's are not allowed in Wilderness areas, but!!!!

 

National Forests are harmed way more by clear cutting and strip mining yet these activities are allowed!

 

Consider the impact! Fight your fights where they'll do the most good. I've spotted, Dead Cars, Dead Vending Machines, Raw sewage on BLM lands.

 

Consider the impact??!!!!!

[Guest drydune]

brought under this kind of scrutiny. I hope that you do not use any kind of paper products because the destruction of trees seems to pose a certain environmental problem.

 

Have you ever hunted a CACHE? If not I would challenge you to try it out before becoming an obviously un-informed basher of geocaching.

 

Don't take my comments wrong and I do respect you for being concerned about impacts to the environment. If you research our forums and try to understand what geocaching is about I believe you will see geocachers are just as concerned as you are. Additionally, I challenge you to look at everything in your life that could impact the environment from washing cleaning agents down your sink to flying in an airplane. Think hard about this. I can guarantee that some of these things I have outlined affect the environment more so than geocaching. Thanks for your input but please try and do some research.

 

Drydune

[Guest Geezer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AZMark:

 

Wilderness areas get way more abuse from ATV'ers than they will see from cachers in 1000 years. No ATV's are not allowed in Wilderness areas, but!!!!

---

 

I've been backpacking in wilderness areas since the 60s, and I can recall only two times that I've actually seen a motor vehicle within the confines of a designated wilderness. One was a guy on a moped.

 

The other was in the form of a mule pack train that was hauling parts of a dismantled jeep that was confiscated from its driver by the Forest Service! The ranger accompanying the pack train explained to me and my friends that the driver had been busted after being reported to the ranger station by a couple of backpackers. Since it's illegal to operate a vehicle in a wilderness area, the owner was not allowed to drive it out. He then offered to tow it out with a horse team, but that would've required "operating" the brakes and steering wheel - still no go. Actually, the rangers just wanted to stick it to him, and they did!

 

quote:

---

National Forests are harmed way more by clear cutting and strip mining yet these activities are allowed!

---

 

Not in wilderness areas.

 

quote:

---

Consider the impact! Fight your fights where they'll do the most good.

---

 

I couldn't agree more. That's why I've chosen to make my point regarding wilderness areas.

 

quote:

---

I've spotted dead cars, dead vending machines, raw sewage on BLM lands.

---

 

Again, exactly my point...

[Guest logscaler]

As per Robereno, logscaler biting lip, tounge, inside of mouth, left leg. Might need stitches before it is over.

[Guest Growley]

O.K. lets see if I've got it right:

 

No BLM Land

No NPS Land

No Private Property

No U.S. Forestry Land

No N.C. State Parks

 

That leaves...My frontyard! OOps, I forgot the city "right-of-way", make that my backyard (lefthand corner, I forgot about the swimming pool).

[Guest jeremy]

Hey. It's a free country.

 

... wait a minute!

[Guest Ranz]

Geezer;

 

If I may add my two cents to the issue. Many Geocachers actually help the environment during thier hunts. I myself have hauled garbage out of an area that I was hunting in and I know for a fact that many other do as well.

 

I hope you don't have the impression that we are a wild mob crashing through the woods. The main reason I cache is much the same as why you backpack. To get back to nature. I don't like it spoiled any more than you do. Most of us feel that way.

[Guest logscaler]

Any bets this person also gripes about the trail fees?

I also have to wonder what his personal agenda is?

I would also have to ask him his thoughts about limiting backpacking into the wilderness areas?

Only one time through each wilderness area per lifetime? After all, if you have seen it once, what's left?

It seems to me that those area's are for people to enjoy.

He can do it in his style and we will do it in ours.

I also have to wonder which has more impact on these area's, his staying out for a long period of time or one of us dropping in and out once a month, or probably less.

 

Enough for now, have to go back and gnaw on the other leg and lip for a while. {{{Disclaimer:Some of these comments have been made in jest. sort them out.}}}}

TTFN, logscaler

[Guest Cache-potato]

since this thread is currently at the top .... i just wanted to say 'here we go again' please don't do the troll the pleasure of bumping it back up......

[Guest Markwell]

Isn't this fun?

[Guest exConn]

h does not impact the environment negatively?

 

The regulations can be interpreted differently by opposing viewpoints, but can't we just use common sense? It seems *both* sides are concerned about the environment and Geocaching poses no harm...

 

-exConn

http://www.libertyunites.org

[Guest Baston]

Why is it, that a large number of people who like to cast stones at us for being enviromentally insensitive, have to hide who they are? What are they afraid of?

Maybe, we might geocache in their backyard. ooohhh. Please.

I live in southwestern Ontario and through my "backyard" is part of the Bruce Trail. This trail run 750km from Niagara-on-the-Lake to Tobermory. There are a number of very rare flora species ie. 700 to 1200 years old cedar trees and walking ferns, to name a few.

In our area the same people who berate the general day hiker or geocacher as being enviromentally insensitive tend to be the same person who like to ride their mountian bikes on the trail and like to tie off their climbing ropes to the same 700 year old trees that they are trying protect. I am a scout leader and as such; I teach my scout to take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but thanks and to leave the trail better that you found it, no trash no trace. Last year I had one of these enviromental superman on a bike berated myself and some of my scouts for walking in a group of 5 on the trail. One of my serior scouts then pointed out that mountian biking on that part of the trail was forbidden due to the damage done by the tires. Never point out to an enviromental superman his short comings. Do as I say not as I do.

I have no time for people that portray themselves as nature's superman. The real enviromentalist is the day hikers who picks up the trash that others have left behind, the person who is out there teaching the youth to respect nature, the family that spends a sunday helping a trail assocation

repair the hiking trails. Those people are the real enviromentalist, they are caretakers not superman.

 

Baston - John Rothwell, Scout Leader, Geocacher.

[Guest Nemesis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baston:

Those people are the real enviromentalist, they are caretakers not superman

---

 

Too right.

 

Cheers,

Donovan.

[Guest Nemesis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baston:

Those people are the real enviromentalist, they are caretakers not superman

---

 

Too right.

 

Cheers,

Donovan.

[Guest bunkerdave]

Ty -

 

You know, I have decided that I really could care less what direction all this goes. I have better things to worry about, and all this debate really only serves to make caching LESS enjoyable. I have deleted all my posts from this forum, since any response to this thread was ill-advised, at best. I have erroneously turned my involvement in caching into a platform for land issues and various other things, at times, and it was all a mistake. From now on, I am going to hunt caches, and maybe hide one now and then. This other stuff is just a load.

 

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 27 September 2001).]

[Guest jonser]

bunkerdave i have to agree with you. lets have fun.

jonser

[Guest trash]

I also have grown tired of all this talk about caches littering the forest. My solution is to remove them. There are, of course, far too many throughout the country for me to remove them all. I'm starting with those that are the most irritating to me. Maybe other concerned individuals will do the same...."anticachers". Here's to leaving only footprints!

[Guest Ranz]

trash;

 

I understand your concerns. I also get upset at trash I find in wilderness areas. While I don?t share in your belief that a geocache is ?litter?, I agree that a wide open cache placement might detract from the natural view. However; if carefully placed and possibly even disguised as part of the environment it is in, it offers no more of a distraction than a trail marker or historical marker, and it is there for the same reason. For the recreation and enjoyment of the public. I respect your opinion and our wilderness areas and I will remember that there are others that share your views when I choose containers and locations for my caches. I hope that you will do the same when (or if) you might come across a cache in the future. I believe that we can both enjoy our wilderness areas in our own way without detracting from the others enjoyment. I hope you agree.

 

Ranz

[Guest Markwell]

I?m only the smallest Billy Goat Gruff. I?m much too tiny for you to eat, and I wouldn?t taste very good. Why don?t you wait for my brother, the second Billy Goat Gruff? He?s much bigger than me and would be much more tasty.

 

[This message has been edited by Markwell (edited 28 September 2001).]

[Guest Reservoir Dog]

ck out in the badlands on foot.

 

Semper Gumby, Bros'!

 

------------------

Terry (Reservoir Dog)

[Guest navdog]

quote:

---

Originally posted by trash:

I also have grown tired of all this talk about caches littering the forest. My solution is to remove them. There are, of course, far too many throughout the country for me to remove them all. I'm starting with those that are the most irritating to me. Maybe other concerned individuals will do the same...."anticachers". Here's to leaving only footprints!

---

 

SHAME ON YOU FOR TAKING SUCH AN IGNORANT AND SELF SERVING ATTITUDE !!!

 

This whole country is grieving because certain individuals have acted out of ignorance just like you.

[Guest K2]

Geezer/Trash I'am going to give you my thoughts on your post and they are in no way to offend you.I started caching about 6 months ago and I think if you try it you would see it's not at all what you perceive.First kids love it,its a natural for them giving the high tech world they are growing up in.My youngest son has become very good at reading Topo maps thanks to Geocaching.I have been apart of 7 Lake Lanier clean sweeps that lasts for 2 days,almost 1000 volunteers.I've been on 12 Chattahoochee River clean ups and I have a Cub Scout den that helps clean up parks.Caches are in no way close to being abandon trash that will harm the land.trust me I know what trash looks like.The containers are in good taste and very cleverly hidden.People who don't Geocache never know they are there and they are in most cases mantain by other cachers when they find them.I have meet other cachers on 4 trips,3 of them they were packing out trash.The motto is "Cach in trash out"I have allways been an outdoors person and I can tell you that backpacking has far more impact than Caching when you consider camp fires that burn thousands of acres a year.I won't go into what happens when it's bathroom time,not that it really hurts anything but most people are not going to pack it out. he he.Go get you a gps and give it a try,you will love it and you won't find a better group of people to share your experiences with.Go Caching,we would love to have you.Okay sorry if I was long winded so I will shutup now.Thanks for reading.

 

[This message has been edited by K2 (edited 29 September 2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by K2 (edited 30 September 2001).]

[Guest mtn-man]

Geezer and trash... the nicks say it all.

 

ASKING FOR PERMISSION is the key. Being a Forest Service Volunteer for more than 12 years, I have busted up hundreds of poorly placed fire rings and picked up at least a ton of trash. Considering that I have seen the damage thousands of hikers have done in Wilderness areas, Geocachers seem to have a better understanding of preservation. Caches I have seen have been placed to draw people to unusual areas that they know... and want to share! Caches are hidden and not in the open. My first cache was somewhat in the open so the Ranger could go to it and approve the location. It was gone in less than six days. My next one was WELL HIDDEN. It has not been touched by hikers and Geocachers cleaned up some of the trash that has been thrown in the area by careless hikers. I wished all hikers were like you, Geezer, and were concerned about their beautiful secret spots in the woods. Many hikers are not! (I know, I constantly pick up their trash.) I think Geocachers should be welcomed because at least most of us are trying to clean things up!! I see so many kids coming into my favorite Wilderness area, partying until 1:00 AM and then leaving their beer BOTTLES all over the area they camped in. Then I get to carry that out!

 

Of course there is always a *Geezer and trash* in every crowd. You will not even indicate where you are. I have even seen four kids trying to drive a Jeep though a creek to get around a locked FS gate, and hikers packing sawed off shotguns, 9mm pistols with five or six full clips per person, and many assorted knives in a Wilderness area (was that you Geezer?). Would you would prefer those kinds hikers to people looking for a little box with toys inside?

[Guest logscaler]

Hey Mtn-man, As a sidebar, how do you explain why a full bottle or can weights less then a empty? It seems a most people can pack lots of full container but empties weight way to much to bring back. Also, myself and Red have earned about 300 bucks this summer from turning in the bottles and cans we have brought back from cache hunting. Got to love those nickel deposit on returnables.

TTFN, logscaler

[Guest Chris Juricich]

Poor ol''Geezer'.

 

Still, he seemed to hold his own on the topic and managed (as far as I could stand to read this stale old topic) to keep his cool.

 

Could someone explain the difference to me between BLM and Wilderness areas?

[Guest mtn-man]

quote:

---

Could someone explain the difference to me between BLM and Wilderness areas?

---

 

Yes, it is explained on this thread...

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001094.html

 

And logscaler, the empty bottle weighs more to a person with an empty brain!

 

[This message has been edited by mtn-man (edited 01 October 2001).]