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Guest c.mathis

s. Did he remove that too? Also in the area is a sign placed by ECV marking the highest place ever reached by a connestoga wagon. All trash - should be removed, and too bad for those of us that liked them.


 

Some people only see trash where they want to. I suppose we should remove the old wagon ruts that the pioneers made when crossing the prairie? No point in having our children see such NON-native tracks.

 

Don't worry about Mr. Trash. Just make sure your caches are well hidden so the casual hiker can't see them and keep on caching! icon_smile.gif

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Guest c.mathis

s. Did he remove that too? Also in the area is a sign placed by ECV marking the highest place ever reached by a connestoga wagon. All trash - should be removed, and too bad for those of us that liked them.


 

Some people only see trash where they want to. I suppose we should remove the old wagon ruts that the pioneers made when crossing the prairie? No point in having our children see such NON-native tracks.

 

Don't worry about Mr. Trash. Just make sure your caches are well hidden so the casual hiker can't see them and keep on caching! icon_smile.gif

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Guest tslack2000

I just checked out the cache page for the cache that "trash" stole! (Overlook Emigrant) At first I was just suprised to see that someone openly admitted to stealing someone's cache. But after having one of my own caches stolen just recently, I have since become more then suprised! This is quite disturbing and I hope it doesn't become a habit for this guy.

 

I have a question for trash if he's still reading these forums. Do you plan on returning to BB what is rightfuly his? He didn't leave that up there for you to take home with you. Did you throw it all away, or is it in the mail? BB must be a pretty nice guy...he didn't even sound very mad about it in his post. That's ok. I'll be mad for him! I say boo mad.gif to people who take what doesn't belong to them!

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Guest EyezOfTheWorld

quote:
Originally posted by c.mathis:

Some people only see trash where they want to. I suppose we should remove the old wagon ruts that the pioneers made when crossing the prairie? No point in having our children see such NON-native tracks.


 

How are wagon ruts trash? And when we hike should we bring a broom to sweep up our footprints?

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To bb,

I find it interesting that you would consider historical markers commemorating California's past with trash. I don't. Incidently, the USFS approved the installation of these markers. Your geotrash was not approved.

 

To c mathis,

The Mokelumne Wilderness Area was not in existence when the pioneers crossed the pass (in the 1840's) just west of the geotrash location. I have no problem with conestoga wagon ruts.

 

To tslack2000,

I did not steal nor did I admit to stealing someone's geotrash. I did what every hiker should do...."pack out trash and leave only footprints". I do not plan on returning this cache to bb. Instead, I plan on giving it to the local USFS representative when I meet with them regarding this activity in Wilderness Areas and National Forests.

 

To all geocachers,

I feel that the idea of a virtual cache is a very good one. Locate a natural feature, then provide the coordinates to others so that they may also locate this special spot. Nothing left behind, no trash and it's legal. What a great idea!

 

I located this geocache by hiking to the peak....it was laying out in the open. No gps was needed as it was plainly visible. Before I found it I had never heard of geocaching...now I'm sorry I had.

 

Perhaps all geocachers need to rethink their cache drops in the areas where it is not allowed. Maybe new policies would eliminate issues like this in the future.

 

I am not alone in my views.

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by EyezOfTheWorld:

How are wagon ruts trash? And when we hike should we bring a broom to sweep up our footprints?

 


 

It was a sarcastic reference to anything left behind that is not "native", such as the registers that are found on most peaks in the country. It's interesting how people decide at what is trash. If a cache remains on a peak for 20 years, is it now "historic"? Are the registers that were placed on the peaks trash or are they NON-native historic artifacts that can remain? Do the registers have to have been place before a certain date, and if so, what is that date? Can I place a new register on a peak that does not have one already?

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Guest jeremy

I can understand your concerns. Did you go and check with the park manager to see if permission had been given to place this cache? Many caches are, whatever your assumptions may be.

 

Call me crazy, but I think a well-marked well-documented container out in the wild would sit in a different category than someone's discarded camping trash. The fact that you found the site to post indicates that you had enough information to find out what it is. If we were throwing geotrash around (and considered it so) we could easily have just kept it unmarked so you didn't know anything about it.

 

And I apologize for assuming you were a troller. Apparently you're just a concerned but not too tactful individual. Hopefully you can keep an open mind on things that are new to you. A confrontational discussion is certainly not as fruitful as a rational one.

 

Jeremy

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by trash:

To c mathis,

The Mokelumne Wilderness Area was not in existence when the pioneers crossed the pass (in the 1840's) just west of the geotrash location. I have no problem with conestoga wagon ruts.


 

What about signs of human passing after the Wilderness was established? Should the summit registers that were placed after that date be removed?

 

A cache on a summit is no different than the registers that people have been signing for generations. that is, assuming that they are placed properly. In fact, most registers are placed in plain site so people can find them without coordinates. Caches are much more discreet if placed properly. And since most geocachers are environmentally aware, it's good to have them visiting an area to help cleanup the trash left by non-cachers.

 

Of course, I am biased in my opinion. icon_wink.gif

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by trash:

To c mathis,

The Mokelumne Wilderness Area was not in existence when the pioneers crossed the pass (in the 1840's) just west of the geotrash location. I have no problem with conestoga wagon ruts.


 

What about signs of human passing after the Wilderness was established? Should the summit registers that were placed after that date be removed?

 

A cache on a summit is no different than the registers that people have been signing for generations. that is, assuming that they are placed properly. In fact, most registers are placed in plain site so people can find them without coordinates. Caches are much more discreet if placed properly. And since most geocachers are environmentally aware, it's good to have them visiting an area to help cleanup the trash left by non-cachers.

 

Of course, I am biased in my opinion. icon_wink.gif

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by AZMark:

What is the USFS stand on clear cutting and subsidising the logging industry?


 

I think they are in favor of it as long as the timber companies don't leave any little tupperware boxes hidden after they clearcut. I think the exact wording is, "you can take all the trees, but you can't leave any trash behind". icon_wink.gif

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by AZMark:

What is the USFS stand on clear cutting and subsidising the logging industry?


 

I think they are in favor of it as long as the timber companies don't leave any little tupperware boxes hidden after they clearcut. I think the exact wording is, "you can take all the trees, but you can't leave any trash behind". icon_wink.gif

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Guest jaw2925

as many people who 'get' geocaching and become participants or just leave notes like the following....www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=2558 (look at the July 23rd log entry)

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Guest Sluggo

Mr/Ms Trash,

 

This is not a joke, it is not troll bait, it is a serious attempt to understand your position. Even though your demeanor in the first post was self-rightous and confrontational, I am VERY interested in trying to understand your point of view.

 

I noticed that you mentioned Tupperware several times. Is it the Tupperware that you feel is inappropriate, or the concept of hiding a cache (Geocaching aside)?

 

Your first post made it sound as if you were upset by someone using and defiling your personal paradise. Later you seemed to mellow and I got the feeling that you were just concerned about keeping the "wilderness" pristine.

 

If the cache container was a handmade wood product, would you have reacted differently?

 

Once again, I am only seeking to understand your point of view, so I can support and promote this activity called "Geocaching" without trodding on someone else's toes.

 

If you are uncomfortable discussing your feelings in this public forum, e-mail me through this site.

 

BTW: jaw2925, that was very well put.

 

Thanks,

Sluggo

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Guest wildman

If no one minds, I'll add my 2 cents worth. I'm a backpacker and canoeist, and I too, like so many, enjoy the wilderness experience. If I found a cache sitting out in the open in a wild area, I too would think of it as trash. Now, if it was hidden and I didn't know it was there, I could hardly object. As for Geocaching, I think the only responsible thing is to have permission before placing a cache, and all caches should be out of site, so as not to take away from the wilderness experience of anyone. The reason for permission is mainly to abide by the law, if nothing else. That's just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.

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Guest bob_renner

This question is for Trash.

 

What is your opinion on summit registers - either in wilderness areas or not?

 

These registers are quite often in the same type of container as a cache and except for not having prizes in them they are exactly the type of thing you are complaining about. They are normally out in the open so that someone reaching the summit can find them. They are not native. I doubt if every single summit register was placed there with permission (some may have been but not ALL). Have you taken it upon yourself to remove summit registers? If you do not object to summit registers then please explain why you would object to a cache which is placed with permission, as more and more caches are being placed WITH permission.

 

Bob Renner

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Guest wildman

FYI, in the High Peaks area of the Adirondacks in New York, they are removing the summit registers on trailless peaks, and replacing with a sign on some where the actual summit is not obvious. The peaks with trails had no summit registers.

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Guest bunkerdave

My experience with folks like Trash is this:

 

They are so starved for fame, and have so little esteem for themselves, that they have to find a soapbox upon which they feel they can stand and look down at someone else. It is obvious that Trash fits in this category. What he didn't count on, however, is that in a free society, everyone, including those that think he's a moron (me) has the same right, and is very likely do exercise it when a lunatic starts shooting off his mouth and behaving antisocially. There are procedures and processes involved here, Trash, why don't you try using them, as we do, instead of the means you have thus far employed. Your current methods will fail, but then, given the tone of your posts, I suspect that failure is something with which you are well acquainted. Get a life. mad.gif

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Guest Mattlandlover

they are doing to our free places. We need wilderness. All of us. And we can all share it together, but not when we have people who are blatantly taking and never giving. For that, we need education, which is why you will find trollers here.

 

There are so many things to do in the backcountry. There are so many places to go. But my question to you is, do you need to find these places with a computer monitor in your hand. What ever happened to the old walk in the woods? What ever happened to the solitude we once had? Anyone can go and find a place that someone has already found with a $100.00 computer, but can you find your own places anymore?

 

Can you really?

 

And yes I am a tree hugger so save your breath. I love the wild, as I should. I love the wilderness and I know most of you do too. But it is education that will only help newcomers. We don't need the kind of people in the woods that you have wasting there time telling a perfectly sane Mr. Trash that they love killing things and cutting down old growth forests. Afterall, they are why I am fighting so hard for restrictions.

 

Trash, that is what we are up aginst. Not the guys who dig this sport and see it for what it can be, but the lumberjack who got a GPS unit in his stocking and would rather drive his Jeep to the cach then have to do all that work and think and stay on the trail.

 

Now go ahead lumberjack, tell me what road kill you got on your redwood plate tonight.

 

Fuel my freind, fuel.

 

Matt

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Guest EyezOfTheWorld

To hell with people who don't like geocaching in some areas? Pass judgement without even knowing them? Boy, I guess people 'round here need to be careful not to speak on things others don't agree with or else they'll get sh!t on by some people.

 

Slam the environmentalists? Would John Muir have a price on his head?

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Guest Scaphites

Some areas are fine. Don't make it sound like all public land should be off limits.

Read the rules http://www.geocaching.com/articles/making.asp some areas are allready off limits. Is it the fact that some people are enjoying our public land by looking for a small box with a log in and maybe driving a jeep to get close. Surely one small box in the vast open spaces of the west didn't send you off the way it has. And as for some of the other posts to this thread, I'll bet it really hurts when you laugh, or you would do more of it, and know when to.

 

[This message has been edited by Scaphites (edited 15 August 2001).]

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"What ever happened to the old walk in the woods? What ever happened to the solitude we once had? Anyone can go and find a place that someone has already found with a $100.00 computer, but can you find your own places anymore? "

 

I can't see any possible difference --whether or not you have a gps unit in your hand or not- if you're enjoying a simple walk in the woods. My family is just starting to explore and enjoy the great outdoors--which we hadn't been doing before the advent of geocaching. We rarely see another human on our walks, but we see plenty of wildlife. When we're following a trail, we don't see hidden caches, nor would anyone else. How does NOT seeing them detract from the beauty of nature or the serenity of a walk in the woods? Just keep in mind that this land is your land--but this land is also MY land.

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Guest navdog

quote:
Originally posted by Mattlandlover:

Just remember geocachers, everything you say here will be here for a long long time. When the parks system sees the posts, such as the one about redwoods and the desire to destroy our natural lands, they will know what they are up against. You just keep adding more fuel to the fire that is burning fast.

 

Now go ahead lumberjack, tell me what road kill you got on your redwood plate tonight.

 

Fuel my freind, fuel.

 

Matt

 


 

Hey Matt,

 

ARE YOU SO IGNORANT as to think that the comments that you refer to are actually what these guys believe? Lighten up and get a life!! If you would spend any time reading these forums you would see how much all of us as geocachers care about the enviroment and how our sport impacts the land we use. I am sure any one of the persons that has responded to this thread would stand with you and hug a tree. You can't just pop into this forum and demand we stop placing caches. Step down off of your soapbox and take some time to see what we are doing to address the impact of our sport and the enjoyment individuals and families are getting by being outdoors.

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Guest tslack2000

quote:
Originally posted by Mattlandlover:

Just remember geocachers, everything you say here will be here for a long long time. When the parks system sees the posts, such as the one about redwoods and the desire to destroy our natural lands, they will know what they are up against. You just keep adding more fuel to the fire that is burning fast.


 

I'm sure that when the "park system" people read these posts they will see the jokes for what they were...JOKES!

 

quote:
There are so many things to do in the backcountry. There are so many places to go. But my question to you is, do you need to find these places with a computer monitor in your hand. What ever happened to the old walk in the woods? What ever happened to the solitude we once had? Anyone can go and find a place that someone has already found with a $100.00 computer, but can you find your own places anymore?

 

Can you really?


 

Of course we can find our "own places". And I'm sure most of us, like myself, have placed a cache there to share it with others. The World is so big! There is no way I could explore the entire World, nevermind the wilderness in my own "backyard" and hope to find some of the beautiful places that I've found on my own. I love that Geocaching takes me to places I would never have gotten to otherwise! A cache to me (most of them anyway) is like a notation in a guide book that says, "This is a beautiful place! Come and take a look!" And the fact that a hidden conatainer is in the area does not make it any less beautiful to me.

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by Mattlandlover:

Geocaching in our national parks is a bad idea and I have personally spoken to the many of the park leaders about goecaching in our parks.


 

You've spoken to them "personally"? Well, I'm sure scared now!. icon_biggrin.gif

quote:

Just remember geocachers, everything you say here will be here for a long long time. When the parks system sees the posts, such as the one about redwoods and the desire to destroy our natural lands, they will know what they are up against.


 

You are such an idiot!

If you couldn't tell those redwood comments were jokes, you have my sympathies.

 

Don't even start to impeach the integrity of the people on this site. You obviously haven't read very many posts or you'd know how environmentally aware geocachers are.

 

You have no idea how some of us have worked in the environmental field or what we've done to save places so you can visit them.

 

You never know, you might be talking to an old Earth First!er that used to spike trees and disable bulldozers. icon_wink.gif

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Guest c.mathis

quote:
Originally posted by Mattlandlover:

Geocaching in our national parks is a bad idea and I have personally spoken to the many of the park leaders about goecaching in our parks.


 

You've spoken to them "personally"? Well, I'm sure scared now!. icon_biggrin.gif

quote:

Just remember geocachers, everything you say here will be here for a long long time. When the parks system sees the posts, such as the one about redwoods and the desire to destroy our natural lands, they will know what they are up against.


 

You are such an idiot!

If you couldn't tell those redwood comments were jokes, you have my sympathies.

 

Don't even start to impeach the integrity of the people on this site. You obviously haven't read very many posts or you'd know how environmentally aware geocachers are.

 

You have no idea how some of us have worked in the environmental field or what we've done to save places so you can visit them.

 

You never know, you might be talking to an old Earth First!er that used to spike trees and disable bulldozers. icon_wink.gif

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Guest Paulwhy

Matt, Trash and Eyez:

 

Wilderness will remain wilderness only if the public supports it. Otherwise big money will have their way with it. Correct?

 

The more people who visit wilderness, the more people will support it. Correct?

 

If everybody visits the wilderness, the wilderness will be destroyed. Not a good Idea. Correct?

 

If we, together, increase wilderness visability with those who enjoy it and not destroy it, the wildernesses will grow and continued to be supported. Correct?

 

Read the cache logs of 20-30 existing caches in wilderness areas. You will find 95-99% of geocachers are wilderness supporters. And almost all wilderness geocaches attract new wilderness supporters.

 

We are all on the same side here!

(with the exception of those who eat condor on old growth redwood fires and are NOT kidding about it)

 

This is really true. Really! Please read some cache logs, it's really amazing how geocaching is helping the wilderness.

 

The national parks and forest management understand this theroy. That's why there are T-shirt shops in Yosemite and Yellowstone, and .00001% of their land is devoted to increasing public support.

 

Devoting another.000000000001% of National forest land to geocaching is also a good thing for YOUR cause.

 

Trash -Please let me know when you are going turn BB's cache over to the authorities. I really want to meet you and discuss this issue in a calm setting, with you and the wilderness management and without the heat of a hot internet forum thread. I'm sure we can come to a win-win agreement. You have my e-mail address.

 

--PaulWhy

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Guest jaw2925

Matt,

I appreciate your taking the time to express what seem to me to be valid concerns. You make an effective case for your viewpoints. Please post the names and numbers of the governmental employees and agencies you've been in touch with. This would allow conscientious geocachers in the Denver area to assist you in developing a dialogue to solve problems rather than exacerbate them. Thanks, Joe

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Jeremy,

Yes, I have checked with the USFS about this cache. No authority was given.

While you state that confrontational discussions are not as fruitful as a rational one... you and some of your fellow geocachers seem to thrive on confrontation (jokes or not). Tactfulness doesn't appear to be one of your traits.

 

c.mathis,

Peak registers are only for individuals to proclaim their ascents. It seems some people need to show others their conquests. I do not frequent summits just to sign the register. Isn't personal satisfaction enough? Yes, they too, should be removed.

 

jaw2925,

I did not employ brute force when I removed the cache. I employed common sense.

I agree that geocaching must be controlled/regulated before there are thousands of caches that people rarely visit, or worse yet, forget about. The more difficult a cache is to locate, the less likely it will be monitored. It will eventually be forgotten. Does a forgottten cache then become trash? You bet!

Numerous forums discuss junk in many caches. Perhaps the Goodwill, the Salvation Army and other, more useful organizations would benefit from the unwanted cache items that others have discussed placing in their own cache.

Better guidelines and policies will ensure less confrontation from others.

 

Sluggo,

Tupperware is only part of the problem. A cache should not be left in wild places where they are not allowed.

 

bunkerdave,

Perhaps you had better review your past posts (all 357 of them) to see just what kind of image you are sending to others about the character of geocachers. Don't you have better things to do all day?

You mention procedures and processes...well I am going through proper procedures as I contact the USFS. The person or persons who placed this cache certainly did not.

Have a nice day!

 

Mattlandlover,

Thanks for the support but I have good contacts that will assist me in this cause. I too, feel all geocachers need to learn appropriate ethics prior to placing a cache.

 

Paulwhy,

I have recently discussed this cache with the USFS. They are going to pick up the cache soon. They are also interested in all the responses that have appeared in this forum as well as other caches placed illegally. I'll keep you posted.

 

All geocachers,

You need to understand that leaving an unauthorized cache behind is illegal. It should be removed or placed elsewhere. Once again, a virtual cache seems like the best solution in these areas.

Your theme is "Cache in. Trash out". I applaud the "trash out" part but feel leaving a cache behind is no different than leaving candy wrapers, empty water bottles or other trash.

 

"Pack it in. Pack it out"

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Guest jeremy

t>


Originally posted by trash:

Jeremy,

Yes, I have checked with the USFS about this cache. No authority was given.


 

Thanks. Can I get their contact information? It's customary for me (or some other geocacher) to follow up. It's a common courtesy. Feel free to give out your contact and the main number so we can reach him or her. If you don't feel comfortable posting here you can send the information direct to me.

 

And yes, we all certainly have different opinions, from reactionary to tactful. That's what I suppose makes us all human. I suppose that folks who place caches have a certain emotional attachment to them, whatever your opinion might be. I certainly feel the same way about a discarded wrapper, so I can understand their frustration.

 

That was a joke, by the way. Sometimes us humans use humor to make light of a situation. I have heard that some park managers have a sense of humor too.

 

Jeremy

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Guest navdog

quote:
Originally posted by trash:

 

Peak registers are only for individuals to proclaim their ascents. It seems some people need to show others their conquests. I do not frequent summits just to sign the register. Isn't personal satisfaction enough? Yes, they too, should be removed.

 

Perhaps the Goodwill, the Salvation Army and other, more useful organizations would benefit from the unwanted cache items that others have discussed placing in their own cache.

 

Paulwhy,

I have recently discussed this cache with the USFS. They are going to pick up the cache soon. They are also interested in all the responses that have appeared in this forum as well as other caches placed illegally. I'll keep you posted.

 

 


 

After this last post by trash, I can only conclude he is a lonely person in search of attention. He has no concept of what he is talking about or what geocaching is. It sounds like he is trying to become a cache nazi and our continued dialogue with him is just proving he was trolling from the very beginning.

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Guest bunkerdave

quote:
Originally posted by trash:

bunkerdave,

Perhaps you had better review your past posts (all 357 of them) to see just what kind of image you are sending to others about the character of geocachers. Don't you have better things to do all day?

You mention procedures and processes...well I am going through proper procedures as I contact the USFS. The person or persons who placed this cache certainly did not.

Have a nice day!

 


First off, let me defuse this exchange by saying that I am not interested in fighting with someone who I believe is on the same side (albeit further left) as me. Your initial post seemed to me to leave no room for disussion or compromise, so I responded accordingly. As for the previous humor, I do not apologize. As Jeremy said, it was an attempt to put a better face on what had turned ugly. Only those who are familiar with the issues of wildlife and conservation would see that humor, and as far as I am concerned, the context should have been a clue that you are dealing with informed individuals.

 

Have YOU read all my 357+ posts? Talk about having nothing better to do. icon_wink.gif

 

Actually, I consider myself fortunate that I have as much time as I have to do something I enjoy as much as this.

 

I think I am in agreement with you on one thing, actually. Wilderness areas are not appropriate places for geocaches. I have found only one, (which I left) but it occurred to me that it probably would have been better placed elsewhere. As for USFS and BLM land, these are lands which are being managed to preserve their beauty, but not to the same extent as the wilderness. I think these areas are appropriate for geocaching. You may not agree, and if not, then I am wrong about you, and we have no common ground in this issue on which we can build. If we can agree on this, then there is room for discussion.

 

So there it is:

 

National Parks and wilderness areas are, IMO, out. USFS and BLM land is in. I have not placed any caches on NPS land or in a wilderness area. I have placed 2 on USFS land and 3 on BLM land.

 

It might be of interest to some that I have become increasingly involved in an emerging hobby called GeoDashing. The locations are coordinates generated at random by a computer, and the object is simply getting there to take pictures and write about it on the Internet. Geocaching will always be my "first love," as it was the reason I bought my GPS. I have found that those who enjoy Geocaching for the same reasons I do, (the adventure, not the trinkets) tend to gravitate toward GeoDashing. I will be the first to admit that there are some pigs in Geocaching, with 30-40,000 people participating, how could there not be? The containers provide, for some people, enough incentive to go out and find them and take what they want and leave nothing, or leave junk. These are not the kind of people I want to bo associated with, but as a public hobby, you have to take the good with the bad. I have enjoyed every one of my "dashes" (a grand total of 4, so far, compared to 123 caches) as much as almost all of my cache hunts, it is exciting to go out to a place you are almost certain, or at least it is easy to convince yourself, that no on else has ever been, even if it is only a few square feet of earth. I do not say that people need to see every place, or even have vehicular access to it, but if a person has the desire, however strange, and the stamina to reach a chosen destination, they should be at least allowed to do it.

 

I guess I am an explorer at heart. I love climbing summits and highpoints around my state, and while I do not sign summit registers myself(My group does this on the Internet) I respect the right of others to use them. I believe this is all anyone here is requesting of you, to respect the right of others to participate. There are 280 million people in the U.S., and a precious few of them care enough about wild places to do anything about preserving them. There is no sense dividing what is already a relatively sparse population into ineffective factions.

 

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 16 August 2001).]

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Guest bunkerdave

quote:
Originally posted by trash:

bunkerdave,

Perhaps you had better review your past posts (all 357 of them) to see just what kind of image you are sending to others about the character of geocachers. Don't you have better things to do all day?

You mention procedures and processes...well I am going through proper procedures as I contact the USFS. The person or persons who placed this cache certainly did not.

Have a nice day!

 


First off, let me defuse this exchange by saying that I am not interested in fighting with someone who I believe is on the same side (albeit further left) as me. Your initial post seemed to me to leave no room for disussion or compromise, so I responded accordingly. As for the previous humor, I do not apologize. As Jeremy said, it was an attempt to put a better face on what had turned ugly. Only those who are familiar with the issues of wildlife and conservation would see that humor, and as far as I am concerned, the context should have been a clue that you are dealing with informed individuals.

 

Have YOU read all my 357+ posts? Talk about having nothing better to do. icon_wink.gif

 

Actually, I consider myself fortunate that I have as much time as I have to do something I enjoy as much as this.

 

I think I am in agreement with you on one thing, actually. Wilderness areas are not appropriate places for geocaches. I have found only one, (which I left) but it occurred to me that it probably would have been better placed elsewhere. As for USFS and BLM land, these are lands which are being managed to preserve their beauty, but not to the same extent as the wilderness. I think these areas are appropriate for geocaching. You may not agree, and if not, then I am wrong about you, and we have no common ground in this issue on which we can build. If we can agree on this, then there is room for discussion.

 

So there it is:

 

National Parks and wilderness areas are, IMO, out. USFS and BLM land is in. I have not placed any caches on NPS land or in a wilderness area. I have placed 2 on USFS land and 3 on BLM land.

 

It might be of interest to some that I have become increasingly involved in an emerging hobby called GeoDashing. The locations are coordinates generated at random by a computer, and the object is simply getting there to take pictures and write about it on the Internet. Geocaching will always be my "first love," as it was the reason I bought my GPS. I have found that those who enjoy Geocaching for the same reasons I do, (the adventure, not the trinkets) tend to gravitate toward GeoDashing. I will be the first to admit that there are some pigs in Geocaching, with 30-40,000 people participating, how could there not be? The containers provide, for some people, enough incentive to go out and find them and take what they want and leave nothing, or leave junk. These are not the kind of people I want to bo associated with, but as a public hobby, you have to take the good with the bad. I have enjoyed every one of my "dashes" (a grand total of 4, so far, compared to 123 caches) as much as almost all of my cache hunts, it is exciting to go out to a place you are almost certain, or at least it is easy to convince yourself, that no on else has ever been, even if it is only a few square feet of earth. I do not say that people need to see every place, or even have vehicular access to it, but if a person has the desire, however strange, and the stamina to reach a chosen destination, they should be at least allowed to do it.

 

I guess I am an explorer at heart. I love climbing summits and highpoints around my state, and while I do not sign summit registers myself(My group does this on the Internet) I respect the right of others to use them. I believe this is all anyone here is requesting of you, to respect the right of others to participate. There are 280 million people in the U.S., and a precious few of them care enough about wild places to do anything about preserving them. There is no sense dividing what is already a relatively sparse population into ineffective factions.

 

 

[This message has been edited by bunkerdave (edited 16 August 2001).]

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Guest makaio

hat way. We have as much right to our public lands as hunters, fisherman, hikers, equestrians, and anyone else. We also take it upon ourselves to ensure the areas we use do not negatively impact the environment. If/when we discover or are made aware of areas that are causing erosion or sediment into streams or affecting riparian areas, we immediately take action to prevent further problems and devise plans to reroute activity to areas which will not cause problems. We also educate young people who are new to off-roading so that they understand the effects of ignoring the rules and straying from designated trails. We also have regular outings where we transport paraplegic and quadraplegic persons into the forest to see places they otherwise would never get the chance to see.

 

You may consider all off-roaders to be "beer drinking, hell-raising, red-necks", but if you do, you are only fooling yourself. The fact is these types are but minute faction. The majority of us are law abiding, family oriented, recreationalists who enjoy using our Jeeps and ATV's to take us to remote areas. We respect our public lands and we don't hesitate to show up in numbers to break a sweat and bust our backs working hard to keep them open.

 

This is contrary to your point of view that public lands should be accessible only by a chosen few. Thank goodness those with your point of view are few and far between and your numbers are dwindling due to internal dissention. Enviro groups have shown that their prime interest is the almighty dollar and that most of the money raised by their efforts does not go to saving the environment but into the pockets of those with the power. Your movement is a mile wide but only an inch deep. You spew the rhetoric and preach doom and gloom but when it comes to getting dirty to actually clean up the environment you all leave it to the next guy.

 

Thank goodness the majority of the population isn't as naive as your kind.

 

Access for All

Open Unless Posted Closed

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Guest Markwell

That ought to win trash over to our side icon_wink.gif I had been following this thread for a while. <> How many times can we all say the same thing without getting to any point of agreement.

 

  • For the most part, Geocachers are concerned about the environment we cache in. We do not want to disturb or despoil the land, but we do want to draw others to very cool spots.
  • There are individuals who have a more extreme view of the environmental impacts of people tramping through the woods. Sure 5 people coming to a cache in a month won't make any major difference to the environment, but what about 5 per day? Can any of us be sure that this isn't how Geocaching will move?
  • Name calling and generalizations do nothing to further the conversation. It simply puts everyone on the defensive and escalates an already overheated discussion.

 

Geocachers will never convince "trash" that we care about the environment. "Trash" will never convince the Geocaching community that their caches are litter. I feel this debate is at an impass, and hope that it moves further down the list on the Bulletin Board as other people get to the point that I'm at.

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Guest Markwell

That ought to win trash over to our side icon_wink.gif I had been following this thread for a while. <> How many times can we all say the same thing without getting to any point of agreement.

 

  • For the most part, Geocachers are concerned about the environment we cache in. We do not want to disturb or despoil the land, but we do want to draw others to very cool spots.
  • There are individuals who have a more extreme view of the environmental impacts of people tramping through the woods. Sure 5 people coming to a cache in a month won't make any major difference to the environment, but what about 5 per day? Can any of us be sure that this isn't how Geocaching will move?
  • Name calling and generalizations do nothing to further the conversation. It simply puts everyone on the defensive and escalates an already overheated discussion.

 

Geocachers will never convince "trash" that we care about the environment. "Trash" will never convince the Geocaching community that their caches are litter. I feel this debate is at an impass, and hope that it moves further down the list on the Bulletin Board as other people get to the point that I'm at.

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Guest Havasu Desert Rat

No matter what it is that you enjoy doing out-of-doors, there will always be someone trying to stop you from doing it. I could make a list of all outdoor activities and then find someone against every single one of them. As far as I am concerned, that isn't the issue here. In that respect, trash is just a statistic.

 

My problem with all of this is that trash is a thief. If you find a wrapper or beer can in the woods, it's obviously trash and you pack it out. No problem. When you find something that has any value at all, and can determine ownership, then you try to return it. The fact that trash is here shows that there was enough information to track down the owner. The cache should be returned.

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Guest Mattlandlover

Jeremy,

How many people are registered to this site? How has that number changed from a year ago. Two years ago? Now imagine if every single person regeistered to this site alone left a plastic box in the woods?

 

How would that look?

 

I climb and would never leave my gear on the walls for you to see when you geocach. And if I did leave something, I would not consider anyone a theif for taking it.

 

It's illegal to leave trash in the backcountry. And trash is anything left behind after a visit to the backcountry. Anything that was not there before you. Pack out what you pack in: the first leason at nearly every trail head.

 

Right?

 

So go and enjoy Geoching with your family, but understand that you will see a backlash if you take an arrogent approach to Geocaching. You can not leave boxes just anywhere in the wild. Trash took the cach because it was trash and perhaps to make a point here. I would too. If the box was illegally placed and out in the open, then it should be removed.

 

Come on you guys, be smart. Stick a stick in the ground and look for that. All you are really missing is a signature on a piece of paper. If the sport is truely about getting outside and being in the wild. And I know many of your posters have said that they never went out in the wild and now love it after they bought a computer to get them outside. Then forego the plastic boxes, take a few pics with your digital cameras and then send them to the person who set the course when you get home.

 

This should be a no-brainer for outdoorsman and people in touch with the environment.

 

Right?

Matt

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Guest Clanggedin

Why is it that I only get involved in controversial sports? First Ultimate Fighting, now Geocaching... I just can't win.

 

The crazy thing is that the UFC was just allowed back on cable PPV and has been sanctioned by the New Jersey, Nevada and California boxing commissions. The sport has never seen better times. Geocaching will probably follow the same route. It will be banned to leave caches pretty much anywhere, but there will be those that stay with the sport and help bring it back better than ever eventually getting permission to lleave caches everywhere.

 

Let Trash and his cronies be a nay-sayer now. The Geocachers will eventually win the war.

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Guest jjderoy1

There was a comment in another thread that the Texas Parks people don't have any official problems with the idea but that the local mangagers are to be consulted first .. soooooo if you find something in Texas it is nooooot safe to call it trash .. it might be there with permission

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Guest jeremy

I'm going to close out this thread because of its length. You're welcome to re-open another one on this subject.

 

Regarding Growth of Geocaching, there are two things to realize -

 

Geocaches are not permanent things. We have caches archived every day for many reasons (including our buddy trash's), but many more are archived by people who say "That's enough" and pick up their cache. Some are concerned that there are too many visiting a cache, can no longer maintain it, etc.

 

Geocachers are intelligent. We've already become concerned with the number of caches and their vicinity from each other. There have been several posts already regarding this. I've noticed that as the game has grown, people have started developing rules of etiquette, and I have been impressed with the concerns of folks who play.

 

Regarding Permission -

 

I already ask that folks ask permission of land owners and managers before placing a cache (read the guide to hiding a cache). If the park manager emails me and tells me that a cache is hidden without permission I either have the cache owner remove it or have someone else remove it if the cache owner cannot be contacted. We've had a darn good rapport with the park managers. Unfortunately I personally cannot check each cache to ensure that everyone is seeking permission. Being a young sport, each manager is trying to determine how they should address it. Some consider it casual use and don't require a permit, while others do.

 

Regardless of whether a cache owner received permission to place a cache, I doubt if trash would recognize that fact. Unless I get some information to the contrary (such as the land manager's contact info) I'll assume he'll remove any cache. That's unfortunate.

 

Overall Geocaching -

 

If I were to shut down the site today, geocaching would not die out. It exists and would continue to exist through other sites. Unfortunately as a result it would become severely fragmented and confusing, which is something none of us wants.

 

It has been my goal all along to keep the game as open as I can so it doesn't become an underground sport, and maintain one location for geocaches so they're easier to be well documented. I feel that the overall geocaching community have done a good job of self regulation. Regardless of what you feel about this sport, it will continue, and the best way to help is to keep your concerns vocal and your mind open.

 

Jeremy

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