National Parks

June 14, 2003

I was amazed to find that Geocaching is not allowed in national parks. I have written the following letter to George Bush and would encourage you to write one of your own...

"I am writing to draw your attention to something that concerns me. I have recently taken up a hobby called "geocaching". It is a simple treasure hunt activity where an individual hides a cache, typically a small tin with a novelty or gift in it. The location is logged by GPS coordinates and other geocachers set out to find it. It is great fun for my two sons and I. Upon finding cache, you sign a log-book and swap some of the contents with a gift of your own. Some are easy to find; others are more difficult.

I have been informed that geocaching is NOT allowed in the national parks. I find it difficult to understand why such a wholesome and educational recreation would be banned in such a location. Hiking, navigating, journaling and sharing activity with a community of other geocachers seems like something that would be encouraged. Certainly it would have to rank as one of the least "naturally" intrusive activities in our parks. All geocachers make the effort to leave each location clean and free of debris - even if that's not the way they found it.

I know you are busy, so I will close now. If you could draw a bit of attention to a soultion that would allow us this simple recreation, I would be grateful. I have included a link to the geocaching web site to make research a bit easier - it is an example of a cache that was removed due to national park restrictions.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=17293"

You can wirte the President at president@whitehouse.gov

Pigue

June 14, 2003

Be sure to mention to ol' Georgie that people might discover OIL or GOLD while out cacheing. That'll get his attention for sure.

3.8k · June 15, 2003

It's a nobel idea, but "W." could care less. "W." and his friends have no concept ecology, the enviornment, or the "wholesome and educational recreation" of which you speak.

I think a better idea would be to vote him out of office.

June 15, 2003

Perhaps what you say is true, but this is one of those things that would be easy for him to handle and great as a publicity stunt for him to appear to be all of those things you say he is not....

Pigue

June 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pigue:
I was amazed to find that Geocaching is not allowed in national parks.

As much as I love Geocaching, I have to say that I agree that Geocaching in a national park is a bad idea.

While I would love to think that all Geocachers followed every rule and were 100% committed to keeping land as they found it, I can't say that everyone is. Geocaching, while it is a mainly non-intrusive sport, does involve some aspect of searching. That last 200 feet or so can be difficult and can involve a lot of stepping on twigs, turning over rocks, and such. Unless there was some way to guarantee that every single person could leave the park as they found it, I don't think it should be allowed. Remember, the goal of national parks is to

quote:
preserves unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the national park system for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations.

I've only had the opportunity to visit one national park (Acadia). In that park there are many signs blocking off land, saying that it is being trampled by humans and is currently being restored. Beside those are usually signs that say "stay on the trail". While you do for the most part of Geocaching, that last couple hundred feet has the possibility of being very destructive.

One more point: you're not completely right in saying that Geocaching is not allowed in national parks. Virtual caches are allowed and encouraged. If you're creative about it, you can find some really great places in national parks that keep people on the trail but lead them to a place they've probably never seen before. I've had that happen with a few caches in Acadia.

June 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by NightThree:
As much as I love Geocaching, I have to say that I agree that Geocaching in a national park is a bad idea.

Sincerely, this amounts to punishing the masses for the sins of a few. If the park rules limit you to a trail, the cache would have to be placed within those boundaries. In the national parks where I live there is a lot of land that is simply open for hunting and cycling and horseback riding. I fail to imagine geocaching would cause more damage than these activities.

Not all people involved in the other activities are 100% land friendly either - should their access be banned as well?

Pigue

4.1k · June 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:
It's a nobel idea, but "W." could care less. "W." and his friends have no concept ecology, the enviornment, or the "wholesome and educational recreation" of which you speak.

I think a better idea would be to vote him out of office.

Right, vote him out and get someone like ole Billie who tried to turn all of the country into NATIONAL MONUMENTS by presidental orders. Lets vote for Hillary and see if she does any better????

June 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:
It's a nobel idea, but "W." could care less. "W." and his friends have no concept ecology, the enviornment, or the "wholesome and educational recreation" of which you speak.

I think a better idea would be to vote him out of office.

But at least he can spell.

1.4k · June 15, 2003

I'd have to say that isn't the best cache to point him to. There is a very snide comment about the national parks in the short description.

I agree that National Parks should be off limits. Leave no trace applies with no exceptions. Some day as our sport grows I would hope the National Park system will start placing their own physical caches. That would allow them to moniter the cache closely and make sure it is not impacting the area.

The cache you reference is in a National Recreation area and I do agree that caches should be allowed in those areas. But if the Rec. Area is maintained by the National Park system, caches are usually not permitted.

Your intentions are great, maybe you can focus that energy in your local area. Join your local Geocaching club and work with them to make sure geocaching is welcomed in your state. If there isn't a local club, start one.

Geocaching is still a very new activity. It will take some time before it is widly accepted. We can speed that along by being proactive in our local communities. Actions speak louder than words. The more officials see geocachers pitching in to help our state and local parks, the more they'll realize we'll do the same at the national level.

TMJ

___________________________________________________________

Don't mind us, we're just looking for tupperware in this bush.

1.6k · June 15, 2003

See this topic

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nebraskache/

June 15, 2003

I disagree as well. Geocaching should not be permitted in National Parks. Parks such as Yellowstone have a very fragile ecosystem and many geocachers do not follow the principles of LNT. National Parks are the last place we have in this country where you can go and find no signs of man or technology. Heck, in some of them you can't even get a cell phone signal because they won't let them build towers in the park.

National parks only take up a small amount of land. There are millions of acres that are not on NP lands for you to geocache on.

________________________

I'm not saying we should kill all the stupid people in the world. I'm just saying we should remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself.

4.5k · June 15, 2003

While it's true that certain National parks or portions of these such as Yellowstone have sensitive areas that you might want to place off limits, the rule regarding National Parks is country-wide without exception. Why not leave it up to the local manage to decide if and where in his park caching could be allowed?

That seems more reasonable than an iron clad uber alles rule that might not apply to many areas.

Alan

3.8k · June 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by claypigeon58:

quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:
It's a nobel idea, but "W." could care less. "W." and his friends have no concept ecology, the enviornment, or the "wholesome and educational recreation" of which you speak.

I think a better idea would be to vote him out of office.

But at least he can spell.

Are you refering to a former VP, or did I misspell something. I take spelling very seriously.

2.7k · June 15, 2003

Seriously:

Did you mean "nobel"- referring to Alfred Nobel, inventor of dynamite and sponser of the Nobel prize? Then it should be capitilized and perhaps in quotes to refer to it as a pun.

Or did you mean "novel"- new or unique?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was a typo since the "b" and "v" are right next to each other.

That's a lot more slack than the liberal do-gooder Democrats granted Dan Quayle when he CORRECTLY spelled potatoe (an accepted, though uncommon spelling).

Tit-for-tat.

(Shame on me for turning this into a political discussion- but then I didn't start it, did I?)

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

3.8k · June 15, 2003

Thanks for the correction Dave and claypigeon 58. (I meant noble) Funny thing is: I first spelled it correctly, then actually looked it up in a spell checker dictionary. The format of the dictionary is a column of misspelled words next to a column of correctly spelled words. I obviously looked at the wrong column.

My mother (an English teacher) always told me to go with my first instinct.

2.7k · June 15, 2003

I put questionable words into WORD and see if they get underlined, then I cut and paste when necessary.

This still doesn't stop "fat fingering" or my junky keyboard that won't register double "o's" (and sometimes other letters).

Everyone makes spelling errors and typos. I saw it immediately because I am very sensitive to it too.

I only responded, in fun, after the other person pointed it out.

Spelling is not something we should be criticizing in the boards. But I couldn't resist when the other person had already brought it up.

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

3.8k · June 15, 2003

I don't consider it criticism. I consider it just another learning experience...(and let's face it...Quayle was an uncommon VP.

Hope to meet you sometime.

June 15, 2003

Pretty soon in my area we will only have urban caches. All of the mountains around us are "National Forest" and they do not allow caches on "their land". I just placed a cache last week that was rejected and told that they are now in the process of removing all the caches on "National Forest" Land. There are now caches within 2 miles of my home that are being removed.

My Area

I Understand protecting areas but they are trying to protect so much these days we can hardly use the Land. All the Forest Area by us is called the Uinta National Forest and they always have signs that say "Uinta National Forest - Land of Many Uses". The Other Day I saw a bumper sticker that said "Uinta National Forest - Land of no use."

June 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:
It's a nobel idea, but "W." could care less. "W." and his friends have no concept ecology, the enviornment, or the "wholesome and educational recreation" of which you speak.

I think a better idea would be to vote him out of office.

On the spelling issue - "enviornment" should be "environment"...

Of course in my letter to GW I spelled "solution" as "soultion", but that's okay because it was only transposing, your error was obviously mispelling, not simple transposition of the "o" and "r".

*grins and winks*

Pigue

38.2k · June 16, 2003

quote:
It's a nobel idea, but "W." could care less. "W." and his friends have no concept ecology, the enviornment, or the "wholesome and educational recreation" of which you speak.

What is "concept ecology". Is it a new type of ecology?

"Au pays des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois"

June 17, 2003

I like the idea of physical caches placed by the NPS. I can't actually see that happening but it would be a great compromise......

Here in the Smoky Mtns NP I've been very happy with the virtual caches - they're all at locations that don't require wandering off-trail, but all lead you to very interesting and beautiful places.

I hope the NPS doesn't decide take these type of caches away from us since they certainly do no harm. Maybe in a few years as caching becomes more accepted/widely known, things will change.

Sorta like skateboarding - when it was first gaining popularity it had a bad rep, "skateboarding is not a crime" was the anthem....... now there are parks built specially for skaters to roll in. Ok, its not exactly the same with caching, but still its funny to visualize herds of cachers running wild thru strip malls with GPS in hand

June 17, 2003

It would be impossible to stop virutal caches. There is no law against posting a location.

June 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by agentjack:
There is no law against posting a location.

Yet...

--

Random fortune:

sigimage.php

20.7k · June 18, 2003

Its funny how wildly off-topic some of these threads get.

The bottom line is this: If you think caches should be placed in national parks, feel free to write your congressman or the President to incite this change. If you feel strongly that they should remain forbidden, you can do the same. Kudos to Pigue for taking action.

Someone can feel free to markwell one of the many threads on poor spelling (or grammar) or one of the many liberal v. conservative threads.

June 18, 2003

I suspect that this may be a matter of educating the people at the highest level of the departments involved within the government. It isn't George Bush's fault that geocaching isn't allowed in National parks, that policy was in place during the Clinton administration. There are a couple of items to consider with this issue. One is that you are actually dealing with 2 different branches of the federal government. National parks are controlled by the dept of the interior, and national forests are controlled by the dept of agriculture. I suspect that few of the top policy makers in either department have ever heard of geocaching, let alone know what it is all about.

As far as environmental and ecological impact of geocaching, I absolutely agree that caches should not be placed in sensitive areas. But 100% of every national park in the country is not environmentally sensitive. Both federal agencies allow the clear cutting of forests and strip mining on many of these same lands. I think it is safe to assume that geocachers probably can't approach that level of environmental damage unless we drive bulldozers to the cache sites.

If we continue to work with local, county and state parks departments and build a good relationship with these folks, as geocaching grows and gets more positive publicity, the federal agencies will change their minds. Of course, taking your state senator or representitive on a cache hunt can't hurt either.

So, tell me again what a "Markwell" is.

June 18, 2003

quote:
100% of every national park in the country is not environmentally sensitive

I don't know if I agree with that one.

June 18, 2003

"I suspect that few of the top policy makers in either department have ever heard of geocaching, let alone know what it is all about."

Actually, yes they have, and issued policy on the subject.

"Both federal agencies allow the clear cutting of forests and strip mining on many of these same lands. "

National Park Service does almost no timber harvesting on their lands. The only time it is ever done is where it is necessary to protect or manage the Park resources, and then very rarely. Unless there is some older inholding mining is not allowed in National Parks.

This is not the place to discuss silvicultural systems and forest ecology, but clearcutting is appropriate and ecologically preferable in certain situations in certain forest types.

Mining is allowed and regulated by the 1872 Mining Law, not Forest Service or NPS policy. That law trumps virtually all other environmental laws. The clinton administration declined to attempt reform of the 1872 mining act when the dems controlled Congress.

===========================================================

"The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings".

38.2k · June 18, 2003

They also allow grazing of livestock in wilderness areas.

"Au pays des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois"

June 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by NightThree:

quote:
100% of every national park in the country is not environmentally sensitive

I don't know if I agree with that one.

Maybe I should rephrase that a little. Within all the national parks that I am aware of there are camping areas, picnic areas hiking/mountain bike trails etc. All of these activities have an equal or greater negative effect on the surrounding environment as geocaching. Please don't get me wrong, I am not advocating dropping a piece of tupperware with a log book into Ol Faithful. But I do believe within every park there exists places where caches can be placed without disturbing the environment more then is already occurring from other activities.

June 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Dave54:
"I suspect that few of the top policy makers in either department have ever heard of geocaching, let alone know what it is all about."

Actually, yes they have, and issued policy on the subject.

That is very interesting. Is this policy available to read on line? I would also like to find out what they based their policy on.

"Both federal agencies allow the clear cutting of forests and strip mining on many of these same lands. "

National Park Service does almost no timber harvesting on their lands. The only time it is ever done is where it is necessary to protect or manage the Park resources, and then very rarely. Unless there is some older inholding mining is not allowed in National Parks.

This is not the place to discuss silvicultural systems and forest ecology, but clearcutting is appropriate and ecologically preferable in certain situations in certain forest types.

I completely agree with you. I do not want to get into a debate about whether these acitivities are good or bad. My point is that geocaching as an activity has far less impact on the environment then clearcutting or stripmining.

Mining is allowed and regulated by the 1872 Mining Law, not Forest Service or NPS policy. That law trumps virtually all other environmental laws. The clinton administration declined to attempt reform of the 1872 mining act when the dems controlled Congress.

===========================================================

"The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings".

National Parks

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