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kelmar

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I just finished a few hours of catching up on some of the recent threads on this board, and my attention was caught by a comment by Xitron concerning the division of geocachers into "elite and riff-raff" by the use of MOC caches. Here are a few thoughts on the subject.

 

Sadly, there are riff raff in this world, and much of our time, energy, and money is spent to protect ourselves from them. All of us have experienced having a "good thing" ruined by the actions of vandals, criminals, or just evil minded people.

 

In a world where it costs $50 to take your family to a movie, or out to dinner, how oppressive is a cost of $30 a year to enjoy the sport of geocaching. If I were to look back over the last year, I would guess that would work out to about .25 cents an hour for me and my family.

 

Do you think a "pass word protected" access to the coordinates and descriptions of caches would cut down on cache losses, and vandalism?

 

Would a required fee to "play the game" seriously hurt the growth of geocaching?

 

Would geocaching be better off if "quality, rather than quantity" was its main focus?

 

I would be interested in hearing what you all think.

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At a time when one segment of the community wants open data, free for all to use and manipulate, there is another segment that wants controlled data, to make the experience more predictable and repeatable.

 

I see the points of both sides. But I cannot see a way to merge the two platforms.

 

My preference: controlled data, brand name caching, reasonable user fees, predictable experiences and GREEN is the colour!!!

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quote:
Originally posted by pkgef:

Would a required fee to "play the game" seriously hurt the growth of geocaching?


 

In my opinion, it absolutely would. It would in fact do more than just hurt growth - we would immediately lose a large number of players who are making positive contributions to the game simply by playing. I am quite certain that Jeremy and his crew have pondered the same question and have come up with the same conclusion as I have.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. geol4.JPG

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A 100% pay site *might* increase quality, but it would definately limit the growth of the sport... People are less likely to pay for a membership to a website/sport/game if there's no way to "try it before you buy it". Who would buy a GPS and pay a membership fee for something they have no clue whether they'd actually be able to enjoy it?

 

If it were a 100% pay site, there would need to be *something* that non-payers could browse... There'd need to be enough access to let potential players look at cacher experiences and confirm that there are enough caches in their area to bother paying.

 

However, being unemployed, living with my parents, barely/not really being able to afford gas and batteries, and also not having access to cheques or a credit card, I'd safely be disqualified as a possible geocacher if the site went 100% members only... at least until something changed in my current situation. If that makes me riff-raff, then so be it, and so long.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

I suppose the rest could go to the competition... However, since they appear not to have much function or population for Canadians etc, it doesn't seem to be an option for non-Americans.

 

A great serial killer once said, "Beauty is only skin deep. Trust me, I've looked..."

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I agree with Seneca. The main part of the game has to remain free (of pirates as well), but I also believe the MOC or some derivitive needs to be in place for those who do pay and support the site financially.

 

People should consider hiding more MOC caches as a start. 10 to 15% in an area seems like a reasonable target.

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I was sooooo glad to see this subject die off. Now please don't consider this as an attack on you personally. Last time I was pretty polite about this, today, I'll be somewhat caustic, but that's just to push a point regarding attitudes. I have nothing against you or anybody else here in any personal manner.

 

That said, let's visit this once more.

 

quote:
All of us have experienced having a "good thing" ruined by the actions of vandals, criminals, or just evil minded people.


 

This is a pretty general statement and a sad excuse to lock out the majority of people who do not fit this description, and yes, the attitude does become elitist when you commit to lock the majority out because of this. This generally labels everybody that doesn't pay to be riff-raff and only capable of being destructive. That's not what you said? Well, that is what is implied. I resent that just on general purpose alone.

 

Conversely, with this same attitude, let's just lock up all the parks to anybody and everybody for fear of the bad apples damaging the property so that the "leagues" can have their ballparks to play in at the expense of others and the efforts they contribute.

 

Let's also point out that according to some of the things I read about this pirating phenomenon also involved some paying members. So explain to me how a paid membership will keep out the riff-raff?

 

This is not to minimalize the paying members efforts, but people need to realize they are saying their contritbutions are more important than others by virtue of paid membership only. That's just wrong.

 

quote:
In a world where it costs $50 to take your family to a movie, or out to dinner, how oppressive is a cost of $30 a year to enjoy the sport of geocaching. If I were to look back over the last year, I would guess that would work out to about .25 cents an hour for me and my family.


 

You set your priorities for you, and I'll set them for me. Let's not presume that your priorities should be mine or anybody else's. How a person justifies it is up to them. Thanks for suggesting I should pay less attention to my wife and not treat her to a nice dinner and a movie now and then though.

 

quote:
Do you think a "pass word protected" access to the coordinates and descriptions of caches would cut down on cache losses, and vandalism?

 

Not really. Re-read my my statement regarding piracy.

 

quote:
Would a required fee to "play the game" seriously hurt the growth of geocaching?

 

Only the site that requires it. The point being everybody here on this site has tried for free what you are suggesting turning into members only. This free part is what has made geocaching.com the popular site it is today, and why so many people are willing to pay dues. Think about that.

 

quote:
Would geocaching be better off if "quality, rather than quantity" was its main focus?

 

I think that's what TPTB are trying to attempt with the changing guidelines in regards to the caches. A paid membership doesn't necessarily change the quality vs. quantity issue.

 

Cheers!

TL

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Ahhh, of course, I looked at this issue from the perspective of a person who has had nothing but wonderful experiences with geocaching from the start. (I should be glad that Jeremy doesn't take a lesson from drug pushers and tell me I need to pay $100 a cache from now on) icon_smile.gif

 

And I suppose trial memberships would not be the answer, as any vandals will most likely get tired of messing up caches after a year anyway.

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Hey TotemLake

Although this is only my first time posting on this board, it does not mean that I have never posted on any board.

 

You made several assumptions, and like most assumptions, they were wrong.

 

1. I did not say anything about "pirates" which I understand to be a completely different subject, and which is not a problem in my area anyway.

2. I did not offer any suggestions about what you should do with your wife. I could care less. The quote you referenced merely stated that geocaching, which is a good bargin at its current cost, would still be one for $30 a year.

 

I always tend to disregard the opinions of anyone who throws out catch words like "elitist" or "racist", and the like.

I did not intend this to be a discussion of political or social matters, nor do I spend much time trying to define what constitutes riff raff, and what doesn't. In my experience, riff raff usually are easy to spot, and they, and all kinds of other predators infest the internet, and any activity that has anything to do with the internet.

 

Prudent people take precautions to protect themselves, their families, and their property, as well as the things they value, such as geocaching, from them. And I am, if anything, a prudent person, if that makes me elitist, so be it.

 

Just as you were posting your "caustic" post, I was posting my above one, where I had listened to what the others had commented on, and realized that paid memberships were not a solution. Which is why I asked the question in the first place, and it was a question, and not a suggestion.

 

However, I will make this suggestion. Read people's posts a bit more carefully before you go off on them, especially if they are new to the forum. More sensitive people might have been scared off by your reply. icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers,

Paul

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quote:
Originally posted by pkgef:

Hey TotemLake

Although this is only my first time posting on this board, it does not mean that I have never posted on any board.

 

You made several assumptions, and like most assumptions, they were wrong.

 

1. I did not say anything about "pirates" which I understand to be a completely different subject, and which is not a problem in my area anyway.

2. I did not offer any suggestions about what you should do with your wife. I could care less. The quote you referenced merely stated that geocaching, which is a good bargin at its current cost, would still be one for $30 a year.

 

I always tend to disregard the opinions of anyone who throws out catch words like "elitist" or "racist", and the like.

I did not intend this to be a discussion of political or social matters, nor do I spend much time trying to define what constitutes riff raff, and what doesn't. In my experience, riff raff usually are easy to spot, and they, and all kinds of other predators infest the internet, and any activity that has anything to do with the internet.

 

Prudent people take precautions to protect themselves, their families, and their property, as well as the things they value, such as geocaching, from them. And I am, if anything, a prudent person, if that makes me elitist, so be it.

 

Just as you were posting your "caustic" post, I was posting my above one, where I had listened to what the others had commented on, and realized that paid memberships were not a solution. Which is why I asked the question in the first place, and it was a question, and not a suggestion.

 

However, I will make this suggestion. Read people's posts a bit more carefully before you go off on them, especially if they are new to the forum. More sensitive people might have been scared off by your reply. icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers,

Paul


 

Hi pkgef,

 

First I did read your message completely. Did I comprehend the intent? As I saw it, yes... as you saw it... no. That's ok though. How we work through our differences is what defines us. First let me address your bullets:

1. You didn't mention the pirates issue, but I did as an example to how the paid membership does not solve the problem.

2. You didn't suggest how I should treat my wife or my finances, I stuck that in there as an extension to the previous stream in the same manner you extended from the stream to renew this issue.

 

Fwiw, you did echo the same thoughts and wording as used in the previous thread that you said you read which did make assumptions. Trying to avoid the political and sociological polarizations is fruitless when these kinds of issues come up. If you try to ignore them, you will not find the right solution or compromise.

 

I'm sorry you misunderstood my intent. I was already verbose, and tried to shortcut. That's my fault as I do know better. That tends to lead to misunderstandings. I should have remained polite instead of going caustic, but I intentionally went there to address the emotional side this issue raises.

 

That said. How can this really be addressed? I don't have a good answer to that. What are the real issues?

1. How can the caches be protected?

Well... We already know accidental discovery by muggles is beyond our purview. So, web-wise, as we are signed on as members, both non-paying and paying requiring passwords, let's make the Hide and Seek capability for cache information retrieval based on same. That provides a log. Is this perfect? No. But it will help minimize the casual web surfer from accidental discovery and possible malicious plunder.

 

2. How do we keep the riff raff out?

You can't. So long as they can log in, paid or not, they will get in if they are determined enough to do so.

 

3. Make the caches Member Only?

Ok. The caches just become isolated. For some that's ok. For others... well... I have seen some become open to the general community because nobody was pursuing them.

 

4. How can geocaching.com make membership more desirable?

There's the rub. We all express how this is one big community, but the reality of it is, it is a community ruled by a very small group. There are general complaints regarding cache approvals or lack of, archiving while others are not, the general political structure of the approvers and owner, etc.

 

The only thing I can suggest that might weigh in to help make paid membership more desirable, is make this more a community effort by a board of members:

1. Automatic enrollement to qualify upon paid membership.

2. Regional representation by a paid membership anonymous voting process.

This can be broken down to smaller localized groups (e.g.) by county, township or province.

3. Active representation to be voted upon annually or every other year.

4. To be taken under advisement by the owner of geocaching/Groundspeak.

5. Create a secured forum that the BOM can discuss these issues.

6. Keep the general community advised of the progress of the issues.

 

Does this make the whole process cumbersome? To a point. But it would be less chaotic, and less inflamatory than posting in general forums.

 

Cheers!

TL

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Is this the part of the thread where two people start arguing about what they did or didn't say and how they did say that and this was mininterpreted using lots of quotes, quoted quotes, capitals and exclaimation marks?

 

Cool, hold on a second while I go pop some popcorn.

 

And thanks Xitron, I always wanted to become Elite, Charter Geocaching Elite as a bonus even.

 

Mickey

Max Entropy

More than just a name, a lifestyle.

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Being an underpaid English Pensioner living in France, would I pay in Euros or Sterling and to whom?

Geocaching is world wide and should remain so we should trust those involved. There are always "bad apples" in any organisation. Should Geocaching become pay as you go then I will have a GPS for sale.Any offers

 

col

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This is just an Idea. Like your comments where anything but.. Is it possible to give a 30 trial or so, based on an IP address or Email that has been verified for free and then start taking away functions.

 

I know from myself after a month I was hooked, and would be willing to pay. Leave a teaser up like everyting except the last two digits of the lat log.

 

Dont know if this is possible or not.

 

Mark.

 

Animated_MiGO_B88.gif

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If becoming a paid user of GC was required to play or continue playing after an evaluation period, I would likely continue to renew my membership but would probably list my cache and all future caches on both GC and the N-site so that they were available to everyone.

 

In fact, I think that if GC went to pay-to-play, it would be a huge shot in the arm for the N-site.

 

__________

Gorak

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

quote:

 

All of us have experienced having a "good thing" ruined by the actions of vandals, _criminals,_ or just evil minded people.

 

I would be interested in hearing what you all think.


 

I've been grouped with vandals and evil minded people. If that isn't a personal attack, I don't know what is. HEY! Where are the mods?!

 

icon_wink.gif

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/<HR></BLCOKQUOTE>

ROFL - Yah we gotta be careful of these personal attacks on Criminal whom finds himself in a special kind of class all by himself. icon_wink.gif

 

Cheers!

TL

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Do you think a "pass word protected" access to the coordinates and descriptions of caches would cut down on cache losses, and vandalism?

 

Nope

 

Would a required fee to "play the game" seriously hurt the growth of geocaching?

 

Yep

 

Would geocaching be better off if "quality, rather than quantity" was its main focus?

 

Yep, but who's to ensure "quality?" What is "quality?" Define "quality."

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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Think of it this way, If a paid membership was required, all of the caches that are placed by non-paying cachers would not exist. That's a lot of caches you'd never get to find. You have to remember that the "riff-raff" are out there placing some very nice caches too. Do they allow caching at the country club?

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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I wonder if TPTB can tell us what the premium member to non-premium member ratio is?

 

I don't think making he site a 100% pay site would ever work. However, Premium members should be entitled to the perks of MOC. This is obviously up to cache owners to set those up. I'd be willing to spend a little more to hide a cache that would be considered worthy of Members only. I don't think a cache should be members only just to be members only. It should be upgraded as far as the contents and/or location.

 

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

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The reason I am a Premium Member is to support an activity I enjoy. I haven't experienced any members only perks that I feel justifies the membership. Again, I pay the membership as a kind of THANK YOU. This is not to say that I am against any benies for membership. Other than pocket queries I am not aware of other member's only perks (MOC are just not available in my area). IMO the way to get more memberships is to keep the bulk of Geocaching free but come up with some COOL members benefits. More cachers will then see a membership as an upgrade but those who choose not to upgrade will still be able to enjoy the sport.

 

=========

"The Road goes ever on and on, out from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, Let others follow it who can!"

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Apparently GC has taken another step at enticing us riff-raff to get a premium membership. Yesterday, I had full use of the new map feature with the one exception that I did not get the check marks on the caches I've found. Today it seems that I can no longer pan nor zoom in or zoom out.

 

I really enjoy this sport, but as I have a full-time day job, a wife who works most evenings, a two-year-old son and a five-year-old son, a yard and house to maintain, and other obligations, I may get to go caching only one Saturday each month. Combine this with the fact that when I started three months ago the only caches near me were 45-60 miles away, and I think you can start to see my point.

 

I have now placed four caches in my local area and have four more I'm getting ready to go out. Also, last week I submitted an article about geocaching to the local paper to try to generate some interest since me and one other guy, who I introduced to geocaching, are the only cachers in our county (which is the fourth largest county in the state).

 

When I got started in this sport, I borrowed a very old GPSr because I just couldn't justify spending the money on something I didn't know if I would keep doing. The GPSr I borrowed was very limited, but after finding a few caches I realized that this was something fun for me and my kids to do in our spare time. I also figured I could use the GPSr for other things we do as well, so I broke down and bought one.

 

I say all this to make a point. Would I purchase a premium membership now, if the site went 100% members only? I'm still not sure. If it had been set up as 100% members only when I first discovered the site I know I would have never gotten started. So, if others in my area of the state are like me, and the site were to go 100% members only, I don't think the sport would catch on around here and the cache population would continue to consist of only my own caches. For that reason, I would probably just let this hobby, although I've enjoyed it very much, fall by the wayside.

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BTW, as it stands, most likely, I will eventually upgrade to a premium membership simply because I enjoy this sport and this website. I know how much it takes to produce and maintain a site like this I want to support it. However, I would much prefer to support the website by purchasing geocaching items from them. I just wish they would offer a larger selection of items to choose from.

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I am quite new to Geocaching having been on several cache finds with friends before getting into Geocaching.com and the community. I too feel it would have been a barrier if I had to pay up front to look at the caches we went to. I am now a premium member because I want to support geocaching and to gain access to the premium features. This should be the emphasis, access to premium features.

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quote:
Originally posted by btouch:

However, I would much prefer to support the website by purchasing geocaching items from them. I just wish they would offer a larger selection of items to choose from.


 

I agree with this and more sensible shipping choices. I tried to buy 2 patches and 1 micro pad and the UPS shipping was more than the items. I will have to wait until a sweatshirt is available in those 'earth tones' suggested in another thread.

 

Geocachers do it with coordinates!

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I can't imagine, for me personally, not paying for a premium membership as a contribution to the cause.

 

Makes no difference to me if other people buy the premium membership or not but I do want to see as many premium members as it takes to keep geo.com financially sound.

 

I can't imagine that I would ever place a member-only cache.

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Really just testing the avatar, but...

 

This is game we're playing here. Some may

take it too seriously (getting back into the flames

that were erupting earlier icon_eek.gif ).

 

I choose to pay my $30 a year, realizing that I

won't see much return on investment, except for

supporting a hobby that I truly enjoy. I don't

consider myself to be elitist, nor do I

consider those who don't pay to be riff-raff.

 

Some may not be able to come up with the money.

That's okay...

 

Personally, I would like to see some neat features

for the paid members (speel cheque icon_wink.gif ), but the

core of this game needs to remain free. I would

have never gotten into this if I had to pay up front...

 

Speaking of features, how can one preview their post

before posting?

 

<hr/>It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay

with problems longer.

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Being new to the sport, I'm really hooked. I spend enough time on the site to want to contribute the $30. I havn't been to any members only caches but I use the pocket querys. $30 is nothing to support an activity that gets me out of the house and gives hours of enjoyment.

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It just so happens my membership expires today. $30.00 a year = $2.50 a month. That's a bargin when you consider the cost of just the gas it takes to go caching. The way I figure it the membership is the cheapest part of this great hobby.

 

I'll be renewing tomorrow.

 

Larebel

 

"When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose". - Bob Dylan

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Speaking as a non-paying riff raff, I'd stop geocaching. We've spent plenty of money on cache items, even restocking a few raided caches with non-McToy goodies. We considered joining a short while ago, but a few things here on the forums caused us to reconsider. We decided that continuing to be part of the local community following hunting season would be a better contribution.

 

--------------------

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

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Well looking over the 43 pages of caches from the link of my zip code produce, of 835 caches that are generated, only 5 are members only.

 

Not one is called "This cache makes your poop smell better the rest of your life." Don't get me wrong, I'm sure all 5 are very nice, the one I found was, but I didn't laugh, cry, and have my life changed.

 

I paid 30$, and thereby support TPTB. Do I agree with them? Heckfire NO!

 

Would I have joined the sport if you had to pay up front to play? Ditto.

 

Would I quit if you had to pay to play? Well since only 5 out of 835 caches would still exist, I'd have to give a resounding WELL D'UH!

 

Who's idea of quality are we going by? Even in team Cat'N'Geo there is dissension in the ranks. She wants 1/1's you can scoop in like M & M's© I like 5/1-3's. Look at all the screaming over the "Coffee Table Book" clause in virts. Imagine that for every freaking cache.

 

Password protection helping to protect them? Might slow them down a little, but if they think it's fun, they'll pay the 30$. Fingerprint locks on the tupperware might do it though.

 

quote:

Sadly, there are riff raff in this world, and much of our time, energy, and money is spent to protect ourselves from them. All of us have experienced having a "good thing" ruined by the actions of vandals, criminals, or just evil minded people.


 

So you want something without chance? Something without risk?

 

Good luck with that.

I got 835 pieces of evidence that say people, mostly, are good & can play together.

 

Besides even if it is a passworded Padlocked cache, it still wouldn't leave it safe from risk. A lucky 6 yearold, a sharp eyed teen, a gaurd noticing something not quite right.

 

It's a game. Play or play something else.

I choose to play this. Till they pry the GPS out of my cold dead hands.

 

They say this universe is bound to blow,

I say we crank up the Calypso Control!

~Jimmy Buffett

 

~Someday I Will~

 

(edited for charecter reference)

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We don't go to ball games because by the time we've pd parking, refreshments, tickets etc multiplied by number in family, it's a $250 event, ditto shows, ditto many events. I borrowed my first GPS take the family out on a fun day for cheep. We are hooked. I can see where the user fee is going from here. Next year the price will go up, then well have to pay for each cache details page we visit. We then it will be a loss for many kids who today get to go out and get fresh air, excersice, a chance to out in nature, and quality time with mom and dad. Many will loose out because it will be a sport for those with money.

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quote:
Originally posted by pkgef:

Would a required fee to "play the game" seriously hurt the growth of geocaching?


 

I'm sure the geocaching groups out there would just put up a web site and continue with geocaching themselves for free. You cannot stop something like this. Nobody could put a fee on it, there would be people like me out there who would just start their own geocaching site for the locals.... eventually groups would cross polinate with other groups and it would be a web of geocaching organizations........ see where I am going with this?

 

That's stupid, like the rumor about charging for each email we sent. It wouldn't fly.

 

If it isn't hard, it isn't worth doing right?

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HEY , here is an idea. lets charge pro baseball players to playbase ball! That would protect the integrity of the game and stop all the wineing. Or better yet, lets charge children a fee to play outside. that way only the good kids will play. The truth is that most of the vandalism and cache stealing happens because geocachers don't properly rehide a cache, and it is then found by a passerbyer, and stolen. Putting a fee on geocaching to "protect the sport" from "evildoers" would be like banning guns. It would oppress the law abiders and the "evildoers" will not be effected. Caches will still be vandalized and stolen, but good and honest people would beharged for yet another thing they enjoy doing. The geocaching web site says" you'll never have to pay to play", and it they go that route and make it a pay to play sport...I hope the whole thing falls apart and ends. icon_frown.gif

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I started Geocacheing at the beginning of this year when I was living in California.Now if I had to have paid to partake in this very unique sport I wouldn't have paid a dime and would have only heard about it.I only paid the 30 dollars cause I got fed up spending money on ink and paper and packing around a binder stuffed with cache pages and notes.Every time I found a cache, I would create trash(cache in trash out??)how many others started out this way??I love the fact I have all the info in my ipaq now.But that cost money to buy.So does buying a gps.Maybe you're looking for revenue from the wrong people.If it wasn't for this sport they would be in a different boat.If it weren't for us this sport wouldn't be in over 180 countries.

 

 

SouthernCanuck

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