Discouraging plundering...

1.6k · December 3, 2002

Markwell me if this has been covered, but...

Had another DNF - Hilton Head's only real fishin' hole. Note the original cache contents. Waterbaron has some pretty good hides and he's into coin collecting and some of his hides have coins that might start someone into the hobby. This one could have (probably) been plundered simply because of the cache contents. He's a member and we're members so if he made the cache member-only that would help, but...

What about non-members? Or members who might plunder?

I though of something this morning that could help limit access and possibly reduce plundering on some caches.

Make it a offset and you have to email the owner to get the real coordinates. Of course I've thought of ways to defeat this, but I won't go into that now for obvious reasons. You'd have a list of the people you've emailed to and they knowing that may be less inclined to plunder.

It's work, but you could do it manually so you can make a decision if you want to send the mail to them or not. You could also set it up as an autoresponder--less work and still have a list of who got the mail.

What do you think? More trouble than it's worth to protect a cache like that? A good scheme that will let non-members play? Been discussed to death in an earlier thread?

CR

3k · December 3, 2002

Sounds like a lot of work but may help. I can also think of ways to get around it but it really sucks that a cacher would do such a thing.

35mm film container, hard to find = good. So thats why you think its a cacher because nobody would just happen upon it. Hmmm

I wonder if making it a multi cache where you have the first stage setup with a log book of where the rest of the caches are and whats in them along with the coords for each. Such as hide each coin separatly in a 35mm film container at a great distance appart. Now the true finders would have to decide which they would want to trade before hand and know what they are going to trade for it so that they can write it in the log book at the first stage. That doesn't seem like it would be too big of a problem with a coin cache like this. Now maybe each leg could be miles apart so you would have to drive to each making it harder. Now obviously it would be harder to place and maintain but its just a thought.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

3k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
... Waterbaron has some pretty good hides and he's into coin collecting and some of his hides have coins that might start someone into the hobby. This one could have (probably) been plundered simply because of the cache contents. He's a member and we're members so if he made the cache member-only that would help, but...

I though of something this morning that could help limit access and possibly reduce plundering on some caches.

Make it a offset and you have to email the owner to get the real coordinates. Of course I've thought of ways to defeat this, but I won't go into that now for obvious reasons. You'd have a list of the people you've emailed to and they knowing that may be less inclined to plunder.

I don't like the idea of having to contact a cache owner for correct coordinates or offset information. Wouldn't it be extremely frustrating if the cache owner was slow or negligent in responding to requests for the information?

Also, it seems to me that (too) many people don't read cache descriptions; they've simply downloaded coordinates. I read logs all the time from people who didn't know they were:

1. doing a virtual cache, and didn't know what verification information was required

2. doing a multicache

3. doing an offset cache

4. doing a puzzle cache that required the cache page.

I am not suggesting that people shouldn't read the cache descriptions ... I think they should, and if they don't they nobody to blame but blah, blah, blah.

The suggested method could also be used by cache owners to discriminate against certain geocachers without good cause.

So I think in this case the potential negatives outweigh the positive.

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on December 03, 2002 at 06:56 AM.]

December 3, 2002

Regrettably I think it is something we have to live with. A number of vandalised caches I have found (or not found) could only have been victims of genuine geocachers who get some sort of perverse satisfaction from spoiling it for others. It is irritating though, you always spend that little bit longer hoping that your luck will turn. Only later does it transpire that the cache was never there to be bagged. It is particularly so when the opportunity to bag the cache in foreign parts is a diversion from the main business of the day. The lot of a geocacher I am afraid.

6.5k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
...I though of something this morning that could help limit access and possibly reduce plundering on some caches.Make it a offset and you have to email the owner to get the real coordinates...

I wouldnt like this type of cache, mainly because it depends on someone elase being there to respond. I think it would drive me nuts waiting for someone that may be gone, inactive, or just doesnt check their email that often. Or even worst this person desides its the 3rd Tuesday of the month and they dont like me so they dont respond....

FYI- this idea has been brought up before, one time was in this thread, it starts out as a discussion about MOCs.

2.6k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

I don't like the idea of having to contact a cache owner for correct coordinates or offset information. Wouldn't it be extremely frustrating if the cache owner was slow or negligent in responding to requests for the information?

Or on vacation, out of town.

quote:
Also many people don't read cache descriptions; they've simply downloaded coordinates. I read logs all the time from people who didn't know they were:

1. doing a virtual cache, and didn't know what verification information was required

2. doing a multicache

3. doing an offset cache

4. doing a puzzle cache that required the cache page.

The suggested method could also be used by cache owners to discriminate against certain geocachers without good cause.

So I think in this case the potential negatives outweigh the positive.

All very good points. I would like to add that everyone using pocket quarries, loads them to their PDA to be read later. Usually out in the field. Maybe even parked near the cache ready to go hunt for it. Only to find that you have to email the owner for the real coords. BUMMER!

Even the traditional way of printing out the cache pages and taking them with you. Reading them for the first time in the field. Nothing spoils a cache hunt more than not even being able to hunt for it.

I think others fit into this cache at home category. Puzzle caches, where you have to search for info on the internet or at the library. Math caches, where you have to know an extended education form of mathematics just to figure out the coords. Like forcing someone illiterate to learn how to read before they can participate.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

1.6k · December 3, 2002

I have posted this before, so if you get De ja Vu, don't panic.

This has been a part of my concern, both plundering and cache decay (loading up with garbage that no one wants).

I have experimented with a signature cache requiring finders to leave only signature items or leave something and label it with their name.

(labels are in the cache). So far, this has worked pretty well. Its still only a few months old, but is staying true to the theme.

This would be another alternative.

A second version of the offset cache would be a very small microcache. Petco sells little dog tags that could be used as the micro with directions to the real cache that isn't listed in the website. A finder would get 2 logs, which would appeal to those who count numbers.

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

1.5k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
_Or on vacation, out of town._

etc etc etc

I just wanted to jump in, and say that your use of bold and italics drives me absolutely batty.

3k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

I just wanted to jump in, and say that your use of bold and italics drives me absolutely batty.

But the flashing Sig pic is fine????

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

1.5k · December 3, 2002

What about that blinky leatherman icon? It takes everything I have to fight off the seizures when I read those posts.

The Toe Pages

Some people didn't like the geobanana... but so far I've gotten no complaints about the flag)

2.6k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

I just wanted to jump in, and say that your use of bold and italics drives me absolutely batty.

OK

Point taken.

I guess it could be similar to all caps.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

2.6k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by umc:

But the flashing Sig pic is fine????

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

December 3, 2002

For many of the reasons listed above I too am not a fan of this. If I wake up at 6:00am and decide I want to go caching I can't until I figure out which ones I want to do and e-mail them, wait for a response etc. I want to be able to go. Between being back in school and working full time my time is limited and I don't want to waste more to find a McDonalds toy!

6.4k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
you can thank BrDad for the sig pic.

Great! Like we needed another reason to hate that crossdressing lumberjack!

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

2.6k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

Great! Like we needed _another_ reason to _hate_ that crossdressing lumberjack!

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

1.6k · December 3, 2002

So, I guess it comes down to one of only a few choices:

1- Openly hide the cache and hope it doesn't get stolen.

2- Make it a MOC and lose non-members and those who don't hunt MOC's out of principal.

3- Make people email you for permission and lose those who wouldn't ask for permission.

4- Don't place the cache. Lose everyone.

Having said that, I guess it really boils down to how bad you want people to hunt your cache and how much risk you're willing to take with the cache contents.

Personally, I wouldn't place a cache that valuble.

As for MOC's, from now on, I think I'm gonna be placing my new caches as MOC's for the first month or so. This way the people who've at least made the commitment to this site get rewarded with getting the first shot at them.

Thanks for input to my "scheme."

CR

6.4k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
That's cold.

OWWW!

Seriously, we all LOVE brdad......

.

...... and you can too, for $2.99 a minute!

Just call 1-900-LUMBERJACK from any touchtone phone.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

3k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
So, I guess it comes down to one of only a few choices:

1- Openly hide the cache and hope it doesn't get stolen.

I take it you mean 'hide the cache and post the coordinates for all to see.' We could use more caches that were well hidden, and fewer caches that had been left out in plain view.

1.5k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
2- Make it a MOC and lose non-members and those who don't hunt MOC's out of principal.

There are members that won't hunt MO caches on principle? What is their beef? I didn't realize that people would be bothered by MO caches.

quote:
Having said that, I guess it really boils down to how bad you want people to hunt your cache and how much risk you're willing to take with the cache contents.

I've had a few caches stolen, and I believe it comes down to the caches being too easy. Easy to find, so they have lots of activity - and lots of activity leads to many more chances for someone to be seen with the cache. I think the best way of keeping your caches from getting looted is to make it difficult to get to. People that would steal a 1/1 cache probably wouldn't go on a mile long hike into a 3/3 deep woods cache in order to do the same to it.

The Toe Pages

3k · December 3, 2002

I think umc had a good idea with the multi cache thing stated in his post above. He usually does have good ideas as you all know.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

2.6k · December 3, 2002

Love your Selfless Self promotion.

The third person thing is a little spooky.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

1.5k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by umc:
I think umc had a good idea with the multi cache thing stated in his post above. He usually does have good ideas as you all know.

You'd lose the lazy unmotivated bastards, such as myself, who can't find the energy to go after several caches while only getting credit for one.

(No, I'm not competitive with others on the site... but I do like seeing my own find total rise. I feel like I'm actually accomplishing something. *laugh*)

The Toe Pages

2.6k · December 3, 2002

Yeah, and sitting in front of a computer arguing with each other doesn't help either.

I'm so ashamed, I should be outside or something.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

December 3, 2002

Perhaps the best solution to this problem is to avoid putting valuables or other things that dishonest people "crave" in caches. Collectable coins seem to be a particular problem. Personally, I like cache prizes that make good souvenirs, either unusual objects or things related to the cache theme. These things often have very little "hard cash" value. If we make stealing from caches worthwhile, it is our own fault. Having said all that, I think that multi-caches and more difficult caches are less likely to get plundered. Dishonest jerks are also usually lazy.

CharlieP

1.6k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

There are members that won't hunt MO caches on principle?

Apparantly, after reading an above referenced post, there are people who just won't hunt an MOC.

~shrugs~

CR

December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:
What about that blinky leatherman icon? It takes everything I have to fight off the seizures when I read those posts.

Heh...heh, LoL

1k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:
Great! Like we needed _another_ reason to _hate_ that crossdressing lumberjack!

What was the first reason?

I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

December 3, 2002

Several things,

one... having backpacked many years, the quality of the hiker greatly goes up with the distance required to do the hike. On long hikes, hiker trail encounters are almost like greeting real human beings. I've met some fine folk that way. Thus dificuilty is likely going to be a large block to the skum bag jerk looters. ... trouble is this cuts out the fine disabled folk who would never dream of looting a cache. #4 has a good answer to that problem.

two... what IS a MOC? ..guess I should really ferret it out in the site. looking down in disgrace ... inquisitive look.

three... I can not believe this has been going on for some time and I have been hiking and backpacking right amoung the caches and had NO IDEA they existed!!!! What a kool way to add zest to a hike trip, and makes a perfect silly excuse to go hike. So... point being I bet many of the looters are cashers.

four... I see in national parks people do virtual caches. Hou have to locate the area and collect a clue you would never get if you did not go there or take a picture of yourself at the cache. Now the picture is a perfect way to prove you were there and get credit for the cache. .. requires an e-mail to the cache host before you are validated.

... thanks for being quality enough to listen to a total newbee.. ..a virgin newbee...

... but the weekend IS on its way...!!!

... no.. dauh.. been married 36 years to my first wife. .. not THAT kind of virgin

38.2k · December 3, 2002

The best way to discourage plundering is to make your cache somewhat difficult to get to and after that, well concealed.

I've found many caches where my first reaction was "I can't believe this wasn't already plundered". In many cases they eventually were.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

1.6k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
So, I guess it comes down to one of only a few choices:

1- Openly hide the cache and hope it doesn't get stolen.

I take it you mean 'hide the cache and post the coordinates for all to see.' We could use more caches that were well hidden, and fewer caches that had been left out in plain view.

Almost missed this post!

Yeah, it was kind of an oxymoron, wasn't it?

Waterbaron places quality caches that are well hidden. The one in question was well hidden as well.

That's was what I meant. Quality hide openly posted on the site.

CR

6.5k · December 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by poksal, grand kids & wife:
two... what IS a MOC?

A Memeber Only Cache, that only can only be hidden by charter members, and whos cache pages can only be view by charter members. Run a search for more background info.

quote:
three... I can not believe this has been going on for some time and I have been hiking and backpacking right amoung the caches and had NO IDEA they existed!!!!

Geocaching (as we know it)has only been been going on since May of 2000. A search would bring up forum discussions about the start of geocaching. There is also a very brief history of geocaching on the "about geocaching" page.

quote:
So... point being I bet many of the looters are cashers.

Perhaps, but caches have also been found non-cachers who stumbled across them. Again running a search would bring up several threads discussing the matter...

quote:
four... I see in national parks people do virtual caches. Hou have to locate the area and collect a clue you would never get if you did not go there or take a picture of yourself at the cache. Now the picture is a perfect way to prove you were there and get credit for the cache...

yes, and some caches do require pictures or other forms of "proof". But a virtual is different from a tranditional. Mainly the lack of container & log book.

3k · December 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

Apparantly, after reading an above referenced post, there are people who just won't hunt an MOC.

~shrugs~

As I understand it, another reason some folk won't seek MOCs is because they aren't picked up as "finds" on Dan's Leaderboard.

December 4, 2002

How big of problem is this really? Say there are 50 caches hidden and 10 get hit that is 1/5 of them being plundered. On the other hand if 1 gets hit then that is 1/50th. There may not be specific numbers but if you look at the thousands of caches that are out there how many are lost? I know the feeling of having a cache lost since I have lost a travel bug which stinks so I can imagine that losing a cache is worse.

9.4k · December 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by poksal, grand kids & wife:
I see in national parks people do virtual caches. Hou have to locate the area and collect a clue you would never get if you did not go there or take a picture of yourself at the cache. Now the picture is a perfect way to prove you were there and get credit for the cache. .. requires an e-mail to the cache host before you are validated.

Sending an email before you are allowed to hunt for a cache is much different.

December 4, 2002

why not use a "virtual" placement for any items that are of a higher value. Something like an IOU slip. Place the IOU in the cache, not the actual item. The slip would state exactly what it can be redeemed for, and how it was to be redeemed. The most likely redemption method would be logging the find and then sending email to the person that placed the IOU into the cache. The IOU would not necessarily have to originate from the cache owner. After the person that placed the IOU is notified, they could send additional directions (like a mailing address to send the original IOU). This idea would eliminate the worry about plundering, because the person redeeming the IOU could not remain anonymous.

Oh come on....where is it ?????

2.6k · December 4, 2002

Cool idea.

The IOU slip could have an ID number on it. You have to email the hider to get a new set of coords to find a single valuable prize.

The slips are like the ones you have to take to the checkout counter at computer stores.

Just one per finder.

You whouldn't even have to own the cache. It could be a trade item. A cool looking business card-like treasure slip.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

1.6k · December 4, 2002

I do something like an IOU, but I call them a coupon. It's for a free custom unmounted stamp--just send me the image you want, I'll make it, and send it to you. All you have to do is mount it to a peice of wood or whatever and you're ready to stamp.

CR

2.6k · December 4, 2002

That's pretty cool.

Do you hand carve them?

I've been wondering where to have a Gx made.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

1.6k · December 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
That's pretty cool.

Do you hand carve them?

I've been wondering where to have a Gx made.

Naw, I'm working as an engraver--plaques, awards, and personalized items--and we have a laser engraver. I bought my own rubber material and make the stamps that we use for letterboxing and the one's we put in our caches.

If I can print it from CorelDraw in a solid black, pretty much I can make a stamp out of it.

CR

December 4, 2002

or a coupon, or script, or a chit, or a promise slip, or whatever you want to call it, is the correct concept. As far as placing an ID number on them, then redirecting the finder to the "real" item, hidden elsewhere, I foresee a few problems. First, if it were my IOU, I would want the physical IOU in my hands, I would not want to have to buy 2 or more of the promised item, should that slip go somewhere else, and be found by someone else. Second, if the caches are being plundered, how would placing another cache remedy this? Third, without shipping an item to a known address, or meeting with the finder, face-to-face, while delivering the item, you would lose the chance to develop a contact. Lastly, if there were some Groundspeak supported method to automate the "real" coordinate retrieval, you might end up with a few greedy people plundering all the good stuff. You know what I mean....5 IOU's in one cache, all for good stuff, but one jerk takes all 5 coupons, gets the numbers, and "steals" all the neat items. Personally I would prefer to spend a bit more time and have a LOT more control.

Oh come on....where is it ?????

38.2k · December 4, 2002

quote:
Say there are 50 caches hidden and 10 get hit that is 1/5 of them being plundered. On the other hand if 1 gets hit then that is 1/50th.

I don't see plundering to be a major problem, at least around here. I've lost 1 of my 30+ real caches and that one was one I expected to lose eventually. I think if you hide it well enough where it won't be discovered by non-geocachers, it's unlikely your cache will ever be plundered. I bet the vast majority of plundered caches are taken by people who accidently find them. I know there are people out there who use a GPS to specifically go out and steal caches, but I'm willing to bet that relatively few caches are lost this way.

As I said in an earlier post, I've found many caches that were just asking to be accidently discovered. You can't hide a cache just off the trail in a heavily visited park and expect it to last very long.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

1.6k · December 4, 2002

quote:
I think if you hide it well enough where it won't be discovered by non-geocachers, it's unlikely your cache will ever be plundered.

True, but the cache that prompted this query was well hidden and well away from any trail.

I think what prompted the theft was the cache discription.

But, then again, he was saying animals had been into the cache, so it may be in some critter's burrow. :|

CR

38.2k · December 4, 2002

quote:
I think what prompted the theft was the cache discription.

But, then again, he was saying animals had been into the cache, so it may be in some critter's burrow. :|

It was an interesting list of stuff...but most likely, not particularly valuable. I put similar items in my micros. Indian head pennies, mercury dimes, buffalo nickels, Ike dollars and Kennedy halves. Most of these things aren't worth much more than their face value. But I guess to someone who doesn't know anything, they may think they are valuable.

I stopped listing the cache contents and container long ago. I did so to prevent someone heading out specifically to steal the contents if they found them appealing, or the container (I usually use ammo boxes...shhhh).

As far as the animal aspect, that is a possibility. Someone mentioned that it was chewn by some animal. Perhaps whatever it was came back and moved it.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

December 4, 2002

I know a problem is trying to be solved and that this is brain storming. While these are good ideas I hope they don't make it to WI. For me to go somewhere to get an IOU or to e-mail someone for the cords. is too much work.

With the IOU say you visit 10 caches that means you have 10 IOU's to collect on! The e-mailing I addressed before. I do accept change since it is a part of life but I'm not a fan of any suggestions listed here.

I will admit I have nothing to complain about since my 3 caches are all virtuals and I have never placed an actual cache. When I do place my actual that I have in the works I realize it can be stolen. To me that is a risk in the sport.

Like a few others here in WI I stopped trading items since you get tired of the garbage in the caches but that is a different story. The point being it is part of caching. Just my 2 cents...

December 5, 2002

IOU's in every cache. I just suggested using them for placing some items that have a particularly high value, desirability, or that are too large to fit in the cache container. I understand that theft is, and always will be, a potential problem. Personally, I like to take my 2 small children with me, and to them, all that cheap stuff is TREASURE. If all that we ever found was a bunch of IOU slips, they would quickly lose interest. This concept also works for micro caches.

Oh come on....where is it ?????

Discouraging plundering...

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