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Alan2

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The issue isn't member’s only caches. The issue is allowing money to decide how geocaching, the hobby/sport, should be organized. And allowing one person to decide for the entire community.

 

It is true that running web pages cost money. It is also true that a person is allowed to use his hard work and desire to create a business and run it how he sees fit.

 

However, we the geocaching community, must decide what we want. Next year, the business owner (whoever that may be) could decide that "all" members must join. Maybe after a "free" 30 day trial or whatever so the newbies can be hooked. And the owner will decide how geocaching is going to be run.

 

I believe we should decide - through membership participation and voting like any other non-profit organization. Sure there will be need for membership fees, but the members decide how much, and where it's spent and how the organization will be run. The voting membership will decide on mochaches. The membership, in another example, will decide how approaches to people in the National Park Service boosting geocachoing in parks should happen. Orgainized approaches through a national organization would have more power rather than "ad hoc" contact by individuals Or whatever it is we as a community by everyone voting on where and how we move forward. Just like thousands of other hobbyist groups.

 

Otherwise the rather minor item of "mocaches" will be just a ripple in a tide that will sweep over all our last remaining input and independence on how this will be run. The "almighty" dollar and profit motive will run it and it will lose it's community outlook and standards.

 

So here’s my suggestion. I don’t know enough about web pages. But after reading the posts over 6 months, I know there are brilliant technical people out there who do. I don’t belong to any other hobbyist group. But I’m sure others out there do and can contribute organizational standards. And others can handle setting up a non-profit organization. I’m willing to contribute my time to help get this started in whatever capacity I can help. If others are interested please contact me at alank2us2002@yahoo.com or better yet respond to this post in the forum so others can see your thoughts and ideas.

 

Thanks.

 

Alan

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Will you give it a rest?

 

Jeremy and geocaching.com are not GEOCACHING. They just happen to be the best tool and resource IMHO for cachers. But they are not a requirement to go out and hide/find a cache, so lay off the crap about how one person (Jeremy) is deciding for the whole community. If you don't like the policies and practices of this site, then by all means LEAVE, PLEASE!

quote:
and voting like any other non-profit organization.
Neither geocaching.com, nor the sport/activity/hobby of geocaching are non-profit organizations, so your statement make no sense at all.

 

Why bother starting your own site when alternatives already exist. The sooner you head over to them the better...

 

Member:

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

 

The issue isn't member’s only caches. The issue is allowing money to decide how geocaching, the hobby/sport, should be organized. And allowing one person to decide for the entire community.


I don't see that happening. This site is not the only goecaching site, but it is by far the most popular. If the geocaching public decides tomorrow to go elsewhere, this site will dry up and blow away, like so many dot-coms before it. So ask yourself, who's really in control here?

 

This site is supported because it currently fills the needs of the geocaching public. You apparently think it's the other way around.

 

Remember, Sony thought they had a lock on the home video machine market. They failed to realize (until it was way too late) that people would gladly trade off a tiny bit of picture quality in exchange for double the recording time. Someone else read the market better than Sony did, and Sony paid the price.

 

Market forces will shape the future of geocaching as well.

 

PS_sig.gif

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To apply a seldom used (now-a-days anyway) phrase, "can't we all just go caching?" Its amazing how none of the charter membership stuff really matters when you get away from the discussion boards for a while, and get outside with GPSr in hand. Instead of getting all worked up about all of this stuff, pick a cache you haven't found yet, and go hunting. It'll make you feel a lot better.

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Whether you are a "member" or not, any geocacher can use this website for their enjoyment. Remember, Jeremy is the owner of this website, not you or anyone else. Ultimately it is his right to decide what policies or features to implement. And up until now he has done a wonderful job of listening to our needs.

 

I just looked out the window again, and trust me, the sky is not falling on our geocaching world.

 

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be."

-Douglas Adams

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quote:
Originally posted by Team CacheCows of Wisconsin:

 

Jeremy and geocaching.com are not GEOCACHING.


 

You are right there.

 

quote:

lay off the crap about how one person (Jeremy) is deciding for the whole community. If you don't like the policies and practices of this site, then by all means _LEAVE, PLEASE!_


 

Wow! icon_eek.gif another you don't agree with me get out.

 

quote:
and voting like any other non-profit organization.

quote:

Neither geocaching.com, nor the sport/activity/hobby of geocaching are non-profit organizations, so your statement make no sense at all.


There's abosoutly no reason that there for there to not hava a nonprofit geocaching organization. There are lots and lots of nonprofit groups form for more reasons than you or I can think of.

 

quote:

Why bother starting your own site when alternatives already exist.


 

Maybe a nonprofit organization would could insure that Jeremy and this site could continue. A nonprofit organization has the ability, if they have the funds, to hire people the same as any business. Jeremy could be paid in an agreed upon manner.

 

Maybe this needs a little further examination. A nonprofit organization with dues and other types of fund raising could insure a long life of geocaching.com. A nation wide clean up of public parks or some such thing to bring positive publicity thus possibly enabling more access to areas to place caches. An action groups to communicate with all grovernment issues as they apply to geocaching.

 

Since this has been suggested once here, it's only a matter of time until somebody organizes geocaching (under some other name) or we organize it under the geocaching name with Jeremy's permission to use the name. icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Team CacheCows of Wisconsin:

 

Jeremy and geocaching.com are not GEOCACHING.


 

You are right there.

 

quote:

lay off the crap about how one person (Jeremy) is deciding for the whole community. If you don't like the policies and practices of this site, then by all means _LEAVE, PLEASE!_


 

Wow! icon_eek.gif another you don't agree with me get out.

 

quote:
and voting like any other non-profit organization.

quote:

Neither geocaching.com, nor the sport/activity/hobby of geocaching are non-profit organizations, so your statement make no sense at all.


There's abosoutly no reason that there for there to not hava a nonprofit geocaching organization. There are lots and lots of nonprofit groups form for more reasons than you or I can think of.

 

quote:

Why bother starting your own site when alternatives already exist.


 

Maybe a nonprofit organization would could insure that Jeremy and this site could continue. A nonprofit organization has the ability, if they have the funds, to hire people the same as any business. Jeremy could be paid in an agreed upon manner.

 

Maybe this needs a little further examination. A nonprofit organization with dues and other types of fund raising could insure a long life of geocaching.com. A nation wide clean up of public parks or some such thing to bring positive publicity thus possibly enabling more access to areas to place caches. An action groups to communicate with all grovernment issues as they apply to geocaching.

 

Since this has been suggested once here, it's only a matter of time until somebody organizes geocaching (under some other name) or we organize it under the geocaching name with Jeremy's permission to use the name. icon_smile.gif

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If you want to start a non-profit organization, go ahead. If you want to start another web site, go ahead. I already look up and do caches on other sites. The more, the merrier.

 

However, this site is Jeremy's site, and Jeremy gets to decide how it's run. And he's doing a terrific job at it!!! So unless Jeremy wants to make his site a non-profit organization run site, it isn't going to happen.

 

If you actually do start a non-profit organization, and do a good job of it, I suspect Jeremy will be fully supportive of it, as long as the organization is supportive of geocaching.com. If the organization takes an antagonistic stance against geocaching.com, Jeremy will probably just ignore you.

 

25021_1200.gif

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I believe we should decide - through membership participation and voting like any other non-profit organization. Sure there will be need for membership fees, but the members decide how much, and where it's spent and how the organization will be run. The voting membership will decide on mochaches. The membership, in another example, will decide how approaches to people in the National Park Service boosting geocachoing in parks should happen. Orgainized approaches through a national organization would have more power rather than "ad hoc" contact by individuals Or whatever it is we as a community by everyone voting on where and how we move forward. Just like thousands of other hobbyist groups.

 

*****************************

 

Do you have your start up money ready or are you counting on membership to take over geo-caching? Have you done your market research? Are you willing to live at your computer and do you have a support team ready? How much will they cost? Who will be your liason with the NPS and do you have the lobbyist to do the behind the scene work this will entail (as all successful government negotiations do)? Can you afford the attorney to set up your non-profit organization? Will you trade-mark the name Geo-caching?

 

Just some points to ponder while you are crying over this website.

 

**************************

 

Originally posted by navdog:

Whether you are a "member" or not, any geocacher can use this website for their enjoyment. Remember, Jeremy is the owner of this website, not you or anyone else. Ultimately it is his right to decide what policies or features to implement. And up until now he has done a wonderful job of listening to our needs.

 

_I just looked out the window again, and trust me, the sky is not falling on our geocaching world._

 

***************************

 

Normally I hate being redundant BUT like it has been said before:

 

GIVE IT A REST.........PLEASE!

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Why are people jumping on Alan? Because he dares to propose another way to organize and fund the sport we all love? Because he wants more of a voice? Because he is willing to donate his time and energy?

 

I think we should all encourage people who want to do something for the sport. If you don't think the plan is quite right, give some *constructive* criticism and don't just knock the person or try to push them away.

 

Thanks Alan for posting your thoughts and if you decide to proceed further, please don't hesitate to let the rest of us know (comments to the negative nonwithstanding).

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Thankyou Julie. I wanted to say that a few posts ago, but I believe I may have already been labeled as a "whiner" so I didn't bother.

 

Your comments came just in time, Julie. I was just about to give up on these forums. Thank goodness there is still somebody who agrees that DISCUSSING things is not a bad idea.

 

For everyone who is telling everybody to "give it a rest," please realize that people need to just talk this out. And for every 1 person who dares to voice their opinion in these forums, there are at least two more that don't because they so desperately still want to be involved with geocaching despite the changes that are happening, and don't want the brutal retaliation that is being dealt out here. I was completely shocked at so many of the comments in this thread. Thank you Julie, for being woman enough to stick up for one mans opinion, albeit a very unpopular one at the moment. You are the kind of person I thought every geocacher to be before this controversy started, but you stuck with it. You've renewed my hopes. Like I've said before, I'm not here to make enemies. We can all work this out, but we need to give eachother a chance.

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Does anyone ever get tired of my libertarian diatribes? If you don't, here's a juicy one!

 

People, starting another site isn't a bad thing - it's a good thing. Competition is good. Change is good!

 

I, for one, strongly encourage those of you who do not like (for any reason) the job that Jeremy is doing to start a new web site. It's hard work, and often a very thankless job, but perhaps you will learn some valuable lessons. Perhaps, even, you will create a viable alternative to geocaching.com. But don't just talk about it - talk is cheap. Do it.

 

Regarding the concerns over voting/non-profit ...Again, I personally see no need to change. As the leader of geocaching.com, Jeremy actually represents my views of what I think should be going on. Although I'd personally charge the heaviest geocachers the most money, but this is a small point of contention. When Jeremy stops evolving the web site or ceases his style of being personally involved in discussions (and the development of the web site) ...that's when I'll investigate alternative web sites or possibly having a voting body of some sort.

 

At any rate, Alan, I wish you luck in getting an alternative going. I'll stick with geocaching.com as long as I think it's the best thing out there. Membership fees haven't swayed me, and more membership fees wouldn't make me leave either. MOC's certainly don't bother me in the least. A lack of responsiveness on Jeremy's part, a lack of evolution of the web site ...that's the sort of thing that will make me leave.

 

"What you do today will cost you a day of your life." --jabber's sig on /. and k5.

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

 

However, we the geocaching community, must decide what we want....

 

...I believe we should decide - through membership participation and voting like any other non-profit organization.

Alan


 

Alan,

 

A lot of People have decided -- "through membership participation" that they like www.geocaching.com the way it is. What I mean by that is www.geocaching.com is by far the most used geocaching site so everyone using it has in essence - voted

 

And we vote every time we access the site. Those that used to access it but no longer do... They have also voted.

 

Formalizing a voting process seems redundant to me.

 

--- yrium ---

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A love it or leave it attitude is perfectly justified here. This is not our site, it is Jeremy's. It doesn't get any simpler.

 

He asks our input, asked for donations, and came up with a way to raise funds to avoid annoying (and pointless as countless site shut-downs have proven) advertising.

 

This is not geocaching. It is geocaching.com, a choice amongst others. So, yes, if you don't like it, go away. Find something that you do like.

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quote:
Originally posted by Exocet:

------Does anyone ever get tired of my libertarian diatribes? ---------

 

------People, starting another site isn't a bad thing - it's a good thing. Competition is good. Change is good!------

 

------But don't just talk about it - talk is cheap. Do it.-------

 

------When Jeremy stops evolving the web site or ceases his style of being personally involved in discussions (and the development of the web site) ...that's when I'll investigate alternative web sites or possibly having a voting body of some sort.-----------

 

------I'll stick with geocaching.com as long as I think it's the best thing out there.----------


 

RIGHT ON!! Exocet said it perfectly! I for one am tired of all the *****ing. If all of these people who dislike what's happening here, team up, or better still do their own thing, we will have TONS of great sites to choose from.

 

Bottom line is that Geocaching.Com is the BEST geocaching site around...if it wasn't we probably wouldn't be having this discussion! When it isn't anymore, we will probably go elsewhere.

 

Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Jake.Hazelip:

This is not geocaching. It is geocaching.com, a choice amongst others. So, yes, if you don't like it, go away. Find something that you do like.


 

Yes. It's a choice just like the choice to use Microsoft Windows. (Why does Word keep crashing like that?) ... It's not as simple as "like it or go away". Jeremy successfully built a great database of peoples individual efforts. I'm sure it was fueled by the fact that initially, there weren't enough caches to justify multiple databases (this may be the case now as well). By the time there are enough to justify multiple databases, there are some significant barriers to entry for someone else to create one. Navicache? ... why leave geocaching.com when Navicache may just as well decide to change the structure of it's service like Jeremy did? Alan only sugested that we look at a way to collectively maintain a database. Remember, our real asset is our collective effort in creating and hiding caches for each other, not whether or not you can see who's read your cache description and when (although, that is pretty cool!) ... now why isn't my Excel spreadsheet working?

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Keep talking.

 

Yes, I hate re-reading the same old crap over and over, but I hate it when someone gives their opinion and then ends an argument (discussion) with "I don't want to talk about it anymore!" Sure, it seems that it has all been said, but perhaps maybe a kernel of info may spark a new idea.

 

I happen to disagree with the "community" telling Jeremy how to run his site. Can't imagine the AOL "community" telling AOL how to run their site. Jeremy runs the most responsive site I have ever visited. He actually listens. The site has evolved because Jeremy listens to the community. But don't think for a moment that that gives anyone the right to tell Jeremy how to run his site.

 

I am reminded of my brother who constantly complained of how one of my friends was running the union where he worked. Always complaining. My friend told him if he could do it better then go ahead. "Oh, no! I don't have the time. I have a family." My friend eventually stepped down because he didn't need the grief (he had a family too).

 

So my message is "go ahead" start another site. But do it, don't just talk about it.

 

As my father would say --

 

"Put up or shut up"

"Fish or cut bait"

"Sh*t or get off the pot."

 

geospotter

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I think my post is delayed for review because I used the N-word. That's okay, I understand. But before it's posted, let me say ... there will be people that put up, cut bait and that get off the pot. But the nature of how this hobby/sport/activity (hortivity) has evolved, there are tremendous barriers to anyone who wants to build a competing database ... no matter if it's an ad hoc community or someone looking to cash in (no pun intended) on all of our idividual efforts. Jeremy's done a great job and god speed to him. But as long as he (as moderator) is willing to let people discuss this ... stop berating people for "complaining". Criminey!

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quote:
Originally posted by Julie:

Why are people jumping on Alan


Because the issue is dead. Geocaching.com is not going back to the way it was. Enough of the geocaching.com community (note I did not say the 'geocaching' community) has voted with their cash to accept the changes.

 

What we have left is a number of folks that keep climbing up on their soapbox for one of two goals:

  1. To try and find a ways and means to revert the site back to pre-membership conditions.
  2. To propose an alternate community/association/site.

 

As I already said, the first goal ain't gonna happen, that horse is dead, leave it buried, the rest of us are tired of it.

 

As to the second goal, more power to you if you can do it, but, these forums are not the place to discuss it! If I didn't like the way my local McDonalds was doing things, I do not have the right to stand in their store and try and incite others to go build another resturant. Likewise, those that are proposing starting a new site do not have the right to use Jeremy's property to try and incite others to go start up an alternate group or caching site.

 

Go somewhere else and do it.

 

Member:

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No body's jumping on Alan ... but the team from the great cheese state are correct ... Jeremy started this and Jeremy runs it ... we hunt caches ... it's the same activity ... free ... some added features if you want to support it ... and all the whiners you can stomach in the forums ... (by the way Byron & Anne ... I thought you were boycotting us icon_confused.gif ) ...

 

Hey great weekend weather wise in NC ... LET'S GO HUNT TUPPERWARE! icon_biggrin.gif

 

348_1002.gif

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No body's jumping on Alan ... but the team from the great cheese state are correct ... Jeremy started this and Jeremy runs it ... we hunt caches ... it's the same activity ... free ... some added features if you want to support it ... and all the whiners you can stomach in the forums ... (by the way Byron & Anne ... I thought you were boycotting us icon_confused.gif ) ...

 

Hey great weekend weather wise in NC ... LET'S GO HUNT TUPPERWARE! icon_biggrin.gif

 

348_1002.gif

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I have said my peace on mocaches in earlier post but this thread really steamed me for other reasons so I going to rant. icon_razz.gif

 

Rant Warning!

 

I just realized what bothers me about membership other than my concerns about mocaches. It is that fact that the Jeremy lemmings (If you take this personally then stop reading now it is not directed at anyone person but the feeling I get from some.) are so willing to give Jeremy their money to make their decisions for them. Don’t get me wrong Jeremy has done a great job here SO FAR and probable deserves our support but its creepy how willing some people are to give their money (yes, it is a small amount even to my grad. student stipend) to support Jeremy without any say in how and what it is used for, but on top of that they vehemently put down all people that criticize and question Jeremy weather it is well thought out or not. The Jeremy lemmings seem afraid to talk about it in a civil manner now that they have gotten things their way. And since getting things their way they throw it in the faces of anyone that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. It makes the Jeremy Lemmings look like brats in my book.

 

So right now the only input, that can’t be censored or ignored, to geocaching.com is weather we chose to send our thirty bucks (This may or may not be an appropriate amount of input.). I think the original poster of the thread just wanted a bit more constructive and maybe non-ignorable input to geocaching.com for his thirty bucks. I understand that it probable won’t happen soon if it does happen at all, but the Jeremy lemming instead of discussing the pro and cons of the suggestion beat the original post like a dead horse. Beating a dead horse should be reserve for the issues not posters to the board. I find it embarrassing that SOME (not all) of the charter members that have gotten everything their way and now act like spoiled brats beat up some poor geocacher for making a reasonable (but maybe impractical) suggestion. If you are tired of discussion the issues then don’t, but don’t attack a poster just because you are fed up with it, and if you are going to reply there is no need to attack the poster as part of your reply. Just state why you think it will or will not work. You don’t have to belittle the person even if you hate their suggestion. This applies to the persons that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. Don’t attack someone with your criticism.

 

Grumpy

mcb

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I have said my peace on mocaches in earlier post but this thread really steamed me for other reasons so I going to rant. icon_razz.gif

 

Rant Warning!

 

I just realized what bothers me about membership other than my concerns about mocaches. It is that fact that the Jeremy lemmings (If you take this personally then stop reading now it is not directed at anyone person but the feeling I get from some.) are so willing to give Jeremy their money to make their decisions for them. Don’t get me wrong Jeremy has done a great job here SO FAR and probable deserves our support but its creepy how willing some people are to give their money (yes, it is a small amount even to my grad. student stipend) to support Jeremy without any say in how and what it is used for, but on top of that they vehemently put down all people that criticize and question Jeremy weather it is well thought out or not. The Jeremy lemmings seem afraid to talk about it in a civil manner now that they have gotten things their way. And since getting things their way they throw it in the faces of anyone that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. It makes the Jeremy Lemmings look like brats in my book.

 

So right now the only input, that can’t be censored or ignored, to geocaching.com is weather we chose to send our thirty bucks (This may or may not be an appropriate amount of input.). I think the original poster of the thread just wanted a bit more constructive and maybe non-ignorable input to geocaching.com for his thirty bucks. I understand that it probable won’t happen soon if it does happen at all, but the Jeremy lemming instead of discussing the pro and cons of the suggestion beat the original post like a dead horse. Beating a dead horse should be reserve for the issues not posters to the board. I find it embarrassing that SOME (not all) of the charter members that have gotten everything their way and now act like spoiled brats beat up some poor geocacher for making a reasonable (but maybe impractical) suggestion. If you are tired of discussion the issues then don’t, but don’t attack a poster just because you are fed up with it, and if you are going to reply there is no need to attack the poster as part of your reply. Just state why you think it will or will not work. You don’t have to belittle the person even if you hate their suggestion. This applies to the persons that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. Don’t attack someone with your criticism.

 

Grumpy

mcb

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That's all. Not a non-profit corporation. Not a business.

 

Groundspeak is another story, but that's not what we're talking about.

 

Geocaching.com is a service. A means to play a big game. You can pay if you want and you don't have to if you don't want to. You can make suggestions for improvement. If you don't like them, quit whining. Come up with a better plan and start your own website.

 

Meanwhile, I say it's his website and he can do what he wants. I pay because I first and foremost don't want to see this site go away. Frankly, I think this site can be run much more efficiently and cheaper without all those fancy pictures, maps, and stuff. But people want them, so I go along.

 

But back to the original topic of this thread: This is not an organization. It is not a corporation. It's a service. Plain and simple.

 

Where's that dead horse when you wanna beat him?

 

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

 

So here’s my suggestion. I don’t know enough about web pages. But after reading the posts over 6 months, I know there are brilliant technical people out there who do. I don’t belong to any other hobbyist group. But I’m sure others out there do and can contribute organizational standards. And others can handle setting up a non-profit organization. I’m willing to contribute my time to help get this started in whatever capacity I can help. If others are interested please contact me at alank2us2002@yahoo.com or better yet respond to this post in the forum so others can see your thoughts and ideas.

 

Thanks.

 

Alan


 

when I read this, the drift I get is this:

a) you don't like the idea of Jeremy having so much control

:) You don't know how to make a website like this one, but you're sure there are other people who do.

c) you don't know how to set up a non-profit org but you're sure there are other people who do.

d) You don't know how much money it takes to run a website like this, but you're sure there are other people out there with money.

e) You really want the people (:D, ©, (d) to get together and put together a website and non-profit to replace www.geocaching.com. Your contribution will be that you'll tell them how to do it *right* instead of the way Jeremy has done this one.

 

Is there no one else besides me who percieves the terrific irony of all these people who are using the web site, discussion forum, servers, and bandwidth provided by Jeremy and Groundspeak, Inc. to complain about how Jeremy and Groundspeak are going to be the death of Geocaching?

 

Get a clue. If you don't like this website, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use it. Go try Navicache, or better yet, go build your own website. It will be bloody hard work for virtually no pay, and in all likelyhood if you get something as good as www.geocaching.com together, you'll be treated to a bunch of people using the resources you provide to complain about how you're hijacking the sport.

 

I don't think people realize just how much Jeremy and Groundspeak have done. This is a terrific website - great functionality, great UI, it's fast. As far as I can tell, availability is 100% except for announced downtime. It's under continuous development and it's continually getting better. Jeremy listens to requests for new functions and seems to implement the good ideas promptly. If people have problems, support response is swift and friendly.

 

What, exactly, do you see a non-profit site doing that this site doesn't do?

 

-Paul

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Whoa! You say "don't criticize" and then you call us "lemmings"? (I think I'll change my title to "lemming".)

 

From the postings so far it appears to me that the lemmings (like me) that so easily follow Jeremy are the ones who have some experience in either web site creation, design, etc. or at least have some systems background. We KNOW what Jeremy is going through. We KNOW what it takes to produce a site of this caliber. We've been there. Actually, I think most of us are amazed that Jeremy has gotten this far without funding.

 

What's NASA charge for a space ride? $20 million? How dare they! They don't own space! Nope, but it's still $20 million if you want to ride. Of course, you could always build your own rocket...

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quote:
Originally posted by mcb:

It is that fact that the Jeremy lemmings (If you take this personally then stop reading now it is not directed at anyone person but the feeling I get from some.) are so willing to give Jeremy their money to make their decisions for them.


 

No Jeremy doesn't make my decisions for me ... he does however make decisions ... based on member input ... on the site ... I do give him money, because I approve of what he is doing ... if I don't ... I quit giving money ... sort of like the free market economy, huh.

 

quote:

Don’t get me wrong Jeremy has done a great job here SO FAR and probable deserves our support but its creepy how willing some people are to give their money (yes, it is a small amount even to my grad. student stipend) to support Jeremy without any say in how and what it is used for ...


 

"SO FAR" .. what do you think he's about to do ... suggest we all move south of the ecuator and mix grape koolaid in the jungle? Come on now ... you're in grad school ... think about it .. we do have a say in it ... if we don't like it we move on or do something else. Sorry Jeremy ... I approve of what you're doing ... but can't follow you off the cliff icon_biggrin.gif

 

quote:

 

... but on top of that they vehemently put down all people that criticize and question Jeremy weather it is well thought out or not. The Jeremy lemmings seem afraid to talk about it in a civil manner now that they have gotten things their way. And since getting things their way they throw it in the faces of anyone that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. It makes the Jeremy Lemmings look like brats in my book.


 

The only folks that "vehemently" anything are the ones that keep whining ... oh, and if that qualifies as "vehemently putting you down or throwing it in your face" ... sorry ..

Getting things our way icon_confused.gif ... I missed the big secret meeting where I told Jeremy to do it my way or else icon_biggrin.gif ... I SENT HIM MONEY ... BECAUSE I ENJOY THE WAY HE RUNS IT ... I can translate that into multiple languages if it'll help icon_biggrin.gif

 

Look I've kind of grown tired of this ... so just let me say ... if everyone will loosen up on their attitudes and enjoy the activity ... it'll be fine ... NOTHING HAS CHANGED to the original game ... IT IS GROWING and in order to grow new things are offered ... and believe it or not funds are required ... and if you don't like what is being done ... don't contribute ... just do what you were doing before ... if something changes you just can't live with ... move on ... it's really that simple.

 

I do find it funny that as the attacks on MOC's came out ... the one's that defended ... awh , nevermind ... just go cach hunting ...

 

Mean while me and a bunch of my furry little buddies have to go follow Jeremy over a cliff icon_biggrin.gif ... HEY Jeremy ... got the coordinates on that cliff there bud?

 

348_1002.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by mcb:

It is that fact that the Jeremy lemmings (If you take this personally then stop reading now it is not directed at anyone person but the feeling I get from some.) are so willing to give Jeremy their money to make their decisions for them.


 

No Jeremy doesn't make my decisions for me ... he does however make decisions ... based on member input ... on the site ... I do give him money, because I approve of what he is doing ... if I don't ... I quit giving money ... sort of like the free market economy, huh.

 

quote:

Don’t get me wrong Jeremy has done a great job here SO FAR and probable deserves our support but its creepy how willing some people are to give their money (yes, it is a small amount even to my grad. student stipend) to support Jeremy without any say in how and what it is used for ...


 

"SO FAR" .. what do you think he's about to do ... suggest we all move south of the ecuator and mix grape koolaid in the jungle? Come on now ... you're in grad school ... think about it .. we do have a say in it ... if we don't like it we move on or do something else. Sorry Jeremy ... I approve of what you're doing ... but can't follow you off the cliff icon_biggrin.gif

 

quote:

 

... but on top of that they vehemently put down all people that criticize and question Jeremy weather it is well thought out or not. The Jeremy lemmings seem afraid to talk about it in a civil manner now that they have gotten things their way. And since getting things their way they throw it in the faces of anyone that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. It makes the Jeremy Lemmings look like brats in my book.


 

The only folks that "vehemently" anything are the ones that keep whining ... oh, and if that qualifies as "vehemently putting you down or throwing it in your face" ... sorry ..

Getting things our way icon_confused.gif ... I missed the big secret meeting where I told Jeremy to do it my way or else icon_biggrin.gif ... I SENT HIM MONEY ... BECAUSE I ENJOY THE WAY HE RUNS IT ... I can translate that into multiple languages if it'll help icon_biggrin.gif

 

Look I've kind of grown tired of this ... so just let me say ... if everyone will loosen up on their attitudes and enjoy the activity ... it'll be fine ... NOTHING HAS CHANGED to the original game ... IT IS GROWING and in order to grow new things are offered ... and believe it or not funds are required ... and if you don't like what is being done ... don't contribute ... just do what you were doing before ... if something changes you just can't live with ... move on ... it's really that simple.

 

I do find it funny that as the attacks on MOC's came out ... the one's that defended ... awh , nevermind ... just go cach hunting ...

 

Mean while me and a bunch of my furry little buddies have to go follow Jeremy over a cliff icon_biggrin.gif ... HEY Jeremy ... got the coordinates on that cliff there bud?

 

348_1002.gif

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I'm not saying it would replace this site, but there are common interests which would probably be better served by a collective voice. For example, when dealing with Land Managers (USFS, USPS, BLM, etc.) about access issues.

 

A non profit could also build relationships with other groups that might, in the absense of discussion and understanding, be generally opposed to caching (Sierra Club, Wilderness Fund, etc.)

 

Having been involved in something similiar for another sport, I can attest it is quite a bit of work to get going, but that might be a more productive use of time and energy than arguing about Mr. Irish's business decisions.

 

Just a thought...

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

I'm not saying it would replace this site, but there are common interests which would probably be better served by a collective voice. For example, when dealing with Land Managers (USFS, USPS, BLM, etc.) about access issues.

 

A non profit could also build relationships with other groups that might, in the absense of discussion and understanding, be generally opposed to caching (Sierra Club, Wilderness Fund, etc.)

-jjf


 

I completely agree with this sentiment. A nonprofit could indeed provide a collective voice that we are currently lacking. I'd personally support this type of move.

 

I will say, however that if the intention of such an organization was such that they intended to try to compete with this or any other cache listing site, I would not be in favor of it. I don't see that as a need and am happy enough with geocaching.com as my preferred posting site.

 

So, anyone else think a nonprofit association organized to promote the sport and be a voice for us in dealing with land use agencies would be a good thing?

 

I think I'll post a poll to see how others feel.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott / Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

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quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:

quote:
Originally posted by mcb:

It is that fact that the Jeremy lemmings (If you take this personally then stop reading now it is not directed at anyone person but the feeling I get from some.) are so willing to give Jeremy their money to make their decisions for them.


 

No Jeremy doesn't make my decisions for me ... he does however make decisions ... based on member input ... on the site ... I do give him money, because I approve of what he is doing ... if I don't ... I quit giving money ... sort of like the free market economy, huh.

 


I agree and further along in my post I suggest that maybe the original poster was suggestion slighly more input then the binary state of to give or not to give. It was just a suggestion to be discussed.

 

quote:

 

quote:

Don’t get me wrong Jeremy has done a great job here SO FAR and probable deserves our support but its creepy how willing some people are to give their money (yes, it is a small amount even to my grad. student stipend) to support Jeremy without any say in how and what it is used for ...


 

"SO FAR" .. what do you think he's about to do ... suggest we all move south of the ecuator and mix grape koolaid in the jungle? Come on now ... you're in grad school ... think about it .. we do have a say in it ... if we don't like it we move on or do something else. Sorry Jeremy ... I approve of what you're doing ... but can't follow you off the cliff icon_biggrin.gif

 

quote:

 


And what if he does? What if suddenly he does somethink you don't like, really really don't like. What can you do? You have already given you $30 bucks for the year. If you post negatively to the web site you may be ignored if he chooses too. So the worst thing you can do is not give your $30 next year. You have to wait a whole year before your protest make even a dent. Again it was just a suggestion to make this input less binary.

quote:

 

... but on top of that they vehemently put down all people that criticize and question Jeremy weather it is well thought out or not. The Jeremy lemmings seem afraid to talk about it in a civil manner now that they have gotten things their way. And since getting things their way they throw it in the faces of anyone that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. It makes the Jeremy Lemmings look like brats in my book.


 

The only folks that "vehemently" anything are the ones that keep whining ... oh, and if that qualifies as "vehemently putting you down or throwing it in your face" ... sorry ..

Getting things our way icon_confused.gif ... I missed the big secret meeting where I told Jeremy to do it my way or else icon_biggrin.gif ... I SENT HIM MONEY ... BECAUSE I ENJOY THE WAY HE RUNS IT ... I can translate that into multiple languages if it'll help icon_biggrin.gif

 


 

I didn't say you told Jeremy what you wanted but for what ever reason you are in the group that likes everything that Jeremy has done. I am happy that you are not made uncomfortable by the changes more power to you. But is it so difficult to understand that not every one agrees with your opinions. There are jerks on both side of the issue but it seems that you are treating every one on the opposing side of the issues as a jerk. They are mearly stating opinions and concerns is it such a stretch to look at it from the others sides point of veiw and understand there concerns? Even if you don't agree?

 

quote:

 

Look I've kind of grown tired of this ... so just let me say ... if everyone will loosen up on their attitudes and enjoy the activity ... it'll be fine ... NOTHING HAS CHANGED to the original game ... IT IS GROWING and in order to grow new things are offered ... and believe it or not funds are required ... and if you don't like what is being done ... don't contribute ... just do what you were doing before ... if something changes you just can't live with ... move on ... it's really that simple.

 


Again you state that nothing has change and yet alot has change. In your opinion the original game is in tact and yet some would disagree. I do not think it is as cut and dry as you would like it to be. Some of the changes are good, some bad, some to soon to tell. Why is it that we have to accept or reject it all and why do we have to accept or reject it now? Why can't the discussion continue? If you have grown so tired of it then it is probably good you go find some tuperware.

quote:

 

I do find it funny that as the attacks on MOC's came out ... the one's that defended ... awh , nevermind ... just go cach hunting ...

 

Mean while me and a bunch of my furry little buddies have to go follow Jeremy over a cliff icon_biggrin.gif ... HEY Jeremy ... got the coordinates on that cliff there bud?

 


I never meant that as a personal attack and now I regrete I wrote the lemmings part, it was mearly meant to illustrate a point. :)

quote:

 

http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/348_1002.gif


 

mcb

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:

quote:
Originally posted by mcb:

It is that fact that the Jeremy lemmings (If you take this personally then stop reading now it is not directed at anyone person but the feeling I get from some.) are so willing to give Jeremy their money to make their decisions for them.


 

No Jeremy doesn't make my decisions for me ... he does however make decisions ... based on member input ... on the site ... I do give him money, because I approve of what he is doing ... if I don't ... I quit giving money ... sort of like the free market economy, huh.

 


I agree and further along in my post I suggest that maybe the original poster was suggestion slighly more input then the binary state of to give or not to give. It was just a suggestion to be discussed.

 

quote:

 

quote:

Don’t get me wrong Jeremy has done a great job here SO FAR and probable deserves our support but its creepy how willing some people are to give their money (yes, it is a small amount even to my grad. student stipend) to support Jeremy without any say in how and what it is used for ...


 

"SO FAR" .. what do you think he's about to do ... suggest we all move south of the ecuator and mix grape koolaid in the jungle? Come on now ... you're in grad school ... think about it .. we do have a say in it ... if we don't like it we move on or do something else. Sorry Jeremy ... I approve of what you're doing ... but can't follow you off the cliff icon_biggrin.gif

 

quote:

 


And what if he does? What if suddenly he does somethink you don't like, really really don't like. What can you do? You have already given you $30 bucks for the year. If you post negatively to the web site you may be ignored if he chooses too. So the worst thing you can do is not give your $30 next year. You have to wait a whole year before your protest make even a dent. Again it was just a suggestion to make this input less binary.

quote:

 

... but on top of that they vehemently put down all people that criticize and question Jeremy weather it is well thought out or not. The Jeremy lemmings seem afraid to talk about it in a civil manner now that they have gotten things their way. And since getting things their way they throw it in the faces of anyone that would question, make a suggestion or criticize the way things are. It makes the Jeremy Lemmings look like brats in my book.


 

The only folks that "vehemently" anything are the ones that keep whining ... oh, and if that qualifies as "vehemently putting you down or throwing it in your face" ... sorry ..

Getting things our way icon_confused.gif ... I missed the big secret meeting where I told Jeremy to do it my way or else icon_biggrin.gif ... I SENT HIM MONEY ... BECAUSE I ENJOY THE WAY HE RUNS IT ... I can translate that into multiple languages if it'll help icon_biggrin.gif

 


 

I didn't say you told Jeremy what you wanted but for what ever reason you are in the group that likes everything that Jeremy has done. I am happy that you are not made uncomfortable by the changes more power to you. But is it so difficult to understand that not every one agrees with your opinions. There are jerks on both side of the issue but it seems that you are treating every one on the opposing side of the issues as a jerk. They are mearly stating opinions and concerns is it such a stretch to look at it from the others sides point of veiw and understand there concerns? Even if you don't agree?

 

quote:

 

Look I've kind of grown tired of this ... so just let me say ... if everyone will loosen up on their attitudes and enjoy the activity ... it'll be fine ... NOTHING HAS CHANGED to the original game ... IT IS GROWING and in order to grow new things are offered ... and believe it or not funds are required ... and if you don't like what is being done ... don't contribute ... just do what you were doing before ... if something changes you just can't live with ... move on ... it's really that simple.

 


Again you state that nothing has change and yet alot has change. In your opinion the original game is in tact and yet some would disagree. I do not think it is as cut and dry as you would like it to be. Some of the changes are good, some bad, some to soon to tell. Why is it that we have to accept or reject it all and why do we have to accept or reject it now? Why can't the discussion continue? If you have grown so tired of it then it is probably good you go find some tuperware.

quote:

 

I do find it funny that as the attacks on MOC's came out ... the one's that defended ... awh , nevermind ... just go cach hunting ...

 

Mean while me and a bunch of my furry little buddies have to go follow Jeremy over a cliff icon_biggrin.gif ... HEY Jeremy ... got the coordinates on that cliff there bud?

 


I never meant that as a personal attack and now I regrete I wrote the lemmings part, it was mearly meant to illustrate a point. :)

quote:

 

http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/348_1002.gif


 

mcb

Link to comment

Geocaching certainly needs a collective voice for land managers. And if it's non-profit they tend to listen more (or perhaps ignore you less).

 

But my experience with non-profits is even with the election of officers, they ultimately end up being run by just a few people.

 

And, of course, you'd eventually have to collect dues (probably in the neighborhood of...$30 per year).

 

And unless we get A LOT more geocachers joining the association (tens of thousands), Garmin or Magellan would have more pull with the land managers than we would.

 

And whether it starts out that way or not, I think eventually there would be enough disagreements between the association and Geocaching.com that the relationship would turn ugly. I don't want to see that.

 

geospotter

 

Es nadda tooma

Link to comment

I don't contribute to the forums much but I do read the posts all the time. One thing great about this forum is how everyone seems to be level-headed and well-"spoken". And just like Julie, I wish to encourage people to throw in their ideas for the betterment of this activity (which I sooooo enjoy!). Other people may not always agree with it but that's what discussions are for.

 

Jeremy, you've done a great job and I thank you for all the enjoyment I've gotten from using your website. I would also like to thank ALL of the geocaching.com community who have contributed so much to making geocaching what it is today. After all, without you guys hiding caches, then how will I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and discover all these wonderful spots? And without cachers hunting my caches, then how can I derive pleasure from reading their experiences at finding/not finding my caches? And people's suggestions at hiding caches, cache containers, cache sites, etc. ---- I have learned so much from people contributing to these forums. Not to mention getting a glimpse of the latest in outdoor fashion wear [e.g., the famous Anders(?) leopard suit].

 

Again, thanks to Jeremy and his website, the best of the geocaching community has flourished through the individual contributions of geocachers posting their caches, finds, and ideas on geocaching.com.

 

I will continue to use geocaching.com. Will I become a Charter Member? I don't know yet but I will definitely contribute (monetarily) to Jeremy's efforts. In fact, I just saw an option in one of the geocaching.com links to send a donation to geocaching.com via PayPal/amazon.com.

 

It is sad that there have been such vehement, sometimes hostile discussions that have gone on due to the introduction of the charter membership fee. My thought on this matter is that it is Jeremy's right as it is his website. I can take it or leave it. But at the same time, please let others (such as Alan, et. al.)who oppose it have their say. If approached with the proper attitude, discussions on this topic can lead to newer ideas (such as a non-profit organization that Alan proposed and Broken Wing is doing a poll on) which will hopefully lead to the betterment of geocaching.

 

Also, if you think that a topic has been overly discussed, then simply ignore it. Don't contribute to it and it will simply go away. But if others continue to react/join in the discussion, then maybe the issue at hand is still worth discussing. Maybe it's just a horse of a different color...

 

Happy Geocaching!

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Look mcb ... nothing personal .. but what gets my goat ... anytime you get a group of people together ... for whatever reason ... there seems to be a faction that wants to tear things up with a negative view toward anything that changes ... doesn't change ... whatever ... you see it politics, business, organized religions, you name it ... I guess it's just the nature of humans ... that's why I make a point of making light of it.

 

This activity is fun ... it is not history in the making ... it is not life or death. It's just something to do. Period. Now with that said ... it needs to run itself smoothly and provide the most benefit possible for those that participate. Jeremy seems to have DONE A GOOD JOB so far ... so when I paid my $30 ... I basically ... in my mind ... just paid for what I've ALREADY enjoyed and participated in since I read about it in Dec of 2000. So in the next 12 months ... if all decays and falls apart ... I won't pay for that 12 months and go do something else ... or continue to do this with the local area cachers in another format! Win/win for me ... it's just a matter of perspective. I get to participate ... then make the judgement of if it's worth paying for. So far I've gotten a bargain! You wouldn't believe the people I've met and become friends with ... all over the country ... a couple three ... I email regularly, I talk to on the phone, cache with, and have dinner with! My pals Triffid and Jerry (El Diablo) have a great competition on tough caches and first finds! It's really been of benefit to me ... especially the last 9 months.

 

The real triggers seem (to me) to have been paying for the service .... and the MOC's. Well, the first is just plain clear to anyone other than those that think everything is free and/or should be due to them in someway. Those in the real world understand the way things are. The second ... the MOC's ... who cares ... if they fail or hurt the sport ... THEY WILL GO AWAY ... or www.geocaching.com will go away. If they turn out to be an asset ... they will be here from now on. Either way the world keeps turning and we go on ... I just hate seeing so many people getting all agrevated over nothing ... I wish my life was so simple that all I had to take on as a cause ... something such as MOC's icon_biggrin.gif. I mean ... there's a recession (about over), a war ... you know things like that and putting food on the table!

 

Anyway ... MCB ... hatchet buried ... at least on this side of the fence ... if you ever have the opportunity to visit NC ... drop us a line ... we'll share a beer ... and if the leader of the JL's comes up with an ultra secret cache society ... we'll figure a way to break the code just to piss them off! icon_biggrin.gif (that's a joke by the way)

 

348_1002.gif

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Look mcb ... nothing personal .. but what gets my goat ... anytime you get a group of people together ... for whatever reason ... there seems to be a faction that wants to tear things up with a negative view toward anything that changes ... doesn't change ... whatever ... you see it politics, business, organized religions, you name it ... I guess it's just the nature of humans ... that's why I make a point of making light of it.

 

This activity is fun ... it is not history in the making ... it is not life or death. It's just something to do. Period. Now with that said ... it needs to run itself smoothly and provide the most benefit possible for those that participate. Jeremy seems to have DONE A GOOD JOB so far ... so when I paid my $30 ... I basically ... in my mind ... just paid for what I've ALREADY enjoyed and participated in since I read about it in Dec of 2000. So in the next 12 months ... if all decays and falls apart ... I won't pay for that 12 months and go do something else ... or continue to do this with the local area cachers in another format! Win/win for me ... it's just a matter of perspective. I get to participate ... then make the judgement of if it's worth paying for. So far I've gotten a bargain! You wouldn't believe the people I've met and become friends with ... all over the country ... a couple three ... I email regularly, I talk to on the phone, cache with, and have dinner with! My pals Triffid and Jerry (El Diablo) have a great competition on tough caches and first finds! It's really been of benefit to me ... especially the last 9 months.

 

The real triggers seem (to me) to have been paying for the service .... and the MOC's. Well, the first is just plain clear to anyone other than those that think everything is free and/or should be due to them in someway. Those in the real world understand the way things are. The second ... the MOC's ... who cares ... if they fail or hurt the sport ... THEY WILL GO AWAY ... or www.geocaching.com will go away. If they turn out to be an asset ... they will be here from now on. Either way the world keeps turning and we go on ... I just hate seeing so many people getting all agrevated over nothing ... I wish my life was so simple that all I had to take on as a cause ... something such as MOC's icon_biggrin.gif. I mean ... there's a recession (about over), a war ... you know things like that and putting food on the table!

 

Anyway ... MCB ... hatchet buried ... at least on this side of the fence ... if you ever have the opportunity to visit NC ... drop us a line ... we'll share a beer ... and if the leader of the JL's comes up with an ultra secret cache society ... we'll figure a way to break the code just to piss them off! icon_biggrin.gif (that's a joke by the way)

 

348_1002.gif

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Hawk-eye,

 

I also for the most part agree with you. It seems people like to look for the bad side all the time. I guess my point in my first post got lost in my bad ranting engineering grad student writting. Don't worry all my colleages give me a hard time about my bad writting too. icon_smile.gif

 

I Personlly like to aurgue for the most part. I enjoy arguing over the issues but what brought about my above rant is when it gets personal. I try very hard, although not always successful, to not go at some one personally but just argue the fact and opinions. It seemed that this thread had gotten personal and that is what got me steamed.

 

I meant to wield no hatchet and if I did I will bury it here also.

 

I would just hope that both side of any issue can state there points and opinions without personally attacks and as best we can ignore the trolls.

 

mcb

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Hawk-eye,

 

I also for the most part agree with you. It seems people like to look for the bad side all the time. I guess my point in my first post got lost in my bad ranting engineering grad student writting. Don't worry all my colleages give me a hard time about my bad writting too. icon_smile.gif

 

I Personlly like to aurgue for the most part. I enjoy arguing over the issues but what brought about my above rant is when it gets personal. I try very hard, although not always successful, to not go at some one personally but just argue the fact and opinions. It seemed that this thread had gotten personal and that is what got me steamed.

 

I meant to wield no hatchet and if I did I will bury it here also.

 

I would just hope that both side of any issue can state there points and opinions without personally attacks and as best we can ignore the trolls.

 

mcb

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by mcb:

...I would just hope that both side of any issue can state there points and opinions without personally attacks and as best we can ignore the trolls.

 

mcb


 

You got it amigo .. and the offer of the beer (or beverage of your choosing) stands ...

 

348_1002.gif

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Choberiba:

If I'm ever in NC, I'll buy you a beer, but you'd have to stop waving your shirt like a helicoptor and put it back on.


 

Now stop that ... Southern's don't do that ... it'd scare away the UFO's ... now how you goin'a get ab-ducted doin' a fool thang like that? icon_biggrin.gif

 

348_1002.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Choberiba:

If I'm ever in NC, I'll buy you a beer, but you'd have to stop waving your shirt like a helicoptor and put it back on.


 

Now stop that ... Southern's don't do that ... it'd scare away the UFO's ... now how you goin'a get ab-ducted doin' a fool thang like that? icon_biggrin.gif

 

348_1002.gif

Link to comment

Wow! I could use a beer about now too.

 

I thought this was going to be a lively topic when I started it – but it seems to have gotten everyone’s juices flowing.

 

First let me thank everyone for his or her response. I read them all. And I agree with many of the things said on all sides. (I do admit though that some of the personal attacks stung!)

 

Let me clear up one thing right away. The topic title .com or .org was not meant to imply or suggest that Jeremy should change his commercial site to a .org or non-profit. It’s his site and terrific one at that. When I first started logging on back last October, I sent Jeremy an email complemented him on how great it was. And it’s gotten a lot better. I appreciate his talent, hard work and excellence, as I’m sure we all do.

 

The .org or .com was an idea or vision not for geocaching.com but for us – the geocaching community in how we wanted to move into the future. In reading the forum after the recent changes and checking my own feelings, I felt that a healthy discussion of a Vision for the future might be important. I expressed my feelings and concerns and asked others to join me and/or express their views as well.

 

I may have muddled the thing up by combining two issues however. The first issue had to do with having a collective voice through some sort of non-profit organization. It would attempt to congeal and promote geocaching and keep it healthy. Similar to organizations like Sierra or the NY and NJ Trail Conference and others. Many posts hit upon the positive aspect of this including a very good summary by Webling in Scott’s poll topic: “Support for a Nonprofit Association?” Please check it out and vote there on what you think.

 

The other issue and the one that caused the most heated debate centered on the “profit” angle or commercial aspect. First let me state as a former business owner, I believe that for profit sites will probably always outclass non-profit sites. The profit motive always causes people to do better. Having said that, my concern was and is that profit motives also cause people to want to maximize them. That too is human nature. And in the process it could damage the nature of geocaching. And my concern was to somehow “protect” where the community might want to go by creating its own site. I don’t know enough about that process maybe to judge it. Many have expressed the great difficulty in that –and I’ll accept that. It’s just that I don’t think it’s healthy for the reasons I gave (and you can and have disagreed) for a businessman to decide the sport, who gets to see what cache and when and things like that.

 

So, where do we go from here? I’d rather not open the second issue again. I don’t think that would be productive. We could focus on the first issue – one of creating an organization that promotes various aspects of geocaching. It could work hand-in-hand with all the .coms. The organization would stay out of the website business and leave that to the Jeremy’s of the world who will probably do a better job than the organization. This would leave the organization to focus on promoting the sport, setting standards and good practices that would be appreciated by land managers for example.

 

This time I’m not volunteering for anything. If someone else wants to organize – go to it. I’ll help but frankly I don’t want to run anything. For me I’m interested in keeping low key.

 

Now where’s that beer?

 

Alan

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