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Removal of caches from the Lake Tahoe Desolation Wilderness


tahoeberne

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quote:
Originally posted by TahoeJoe:

This is not your yard we are talking about but land which is designated for the public to enjoy. Mr. Snazz you have people camp out on your yard? Your gardener must not being a very good job.


 

The land may be owned by the public, but it is MANAGED by the forest service, and it is up to them to make decisions based on policy.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Are you saying the park officials KNEW about the caches and asked these people to remove them?

 

OR

 

Was the communication initiated by the Ski folks?


 

Does it matter? If somebody is camped out on my lawn, and I don't notice, but my gardener does, is it wrong for me to ask that my gardener request the intruder depart?


 

Your yard?

 

A better analogy would be you or your gardener seeing a homeless person sleeping in a city park that’s clearly marked “CLOSED AT DUSK”, and calling the cops on them. Again, MYOB. When you stick your nose (or any other appendage) where it don’t belong you run the risk of making enemies who may whack it right off. If you MYOB you make no enemies. The park really doesn’t care if there is a cache there or not. The “problem” is a man-made one.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

The park really doesn’t care if there is a cache there or not. The “problem” is a man-made one.


 

Those who manage the park may very well care about it, and in this case, if they asked for the caches to be removed, doesn't that indicate that they care?

 

If you don't believe the parks should be managed, say so and be done with it.

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Managed? Yes.

 

Micro-managed? No.

 

I get the impression from the first thread that there was implicit permission at best and casual disregard at worst. That’s why I say it is a “created problem”, created by someone who feels vastly superior to the rest of us apparently.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

I get the impression from the first thread that there was implicit permission at best and casual disregard at worst. That’s why I say it is a “created problem”, created by someone who feels vastly superior to the rest of us apparently.


 

Perhaps you missed the quoted message from ski3pin, posted by disquoi:

 

I am an Eldorado National Forest volunteer. I am lucky enough to be able to help the Forest with all kinds of projects, large and small. As part of this volunteer work I was asked to pick up geocaches placed in the Wilderness when I was in their vicinity.

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Come on, Criminal. This thread has really taken a turn for the wilderness port-o-lets.

 

We live in a society that is governed by the rule of law. Your land, my land, their land, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how you feel. What matters is the LAW and the delegation of the responsibility to enforce that law.

 

It is the blantant disregard of authority that creates chaos.

 

Disagreements, misunderstandings, disputes, etc. can all be handled through diplomatic channels. This not only is the proper thing to do, but sets the precedent that we are not a wild bunch of wilderness destroyers, but rather a concerned group of citizens seeking to show the authorities that over regulation can be unnecessary and that our activity can co-exist peacefully with the mission of the land they are entrusted with.

 

If there is a homeless person on a park bench after posted hours, it is NOT my responsibility to kick the dude out of the park. There is nothing wrong if I choose to call the police and allow them to make the decision whether or not the person should be removed.

 

This entire thread is not about minding someone else's business. It's about respecting property and following guidelines.

 

You don't have to use the radio buttons. But if a cache is truly located in an improper location, it is your duty to inform the powers that be of your discovery. It's only fair to the next cachers who may otherwise get a shotgun shoved in their face for trespassing.

 

It really comes down to this:

 

Cache is in a place commonly off limits to geocaching. Permission to hide, though, is granted.

Someone else in same position of authority tells volunteer/cacher they can remove the caches 'cause they're illegal.

Person removing cache gets an overwhelming sense of authority and jumps the gun in the confiscation process and doesn't seek communication with cachers who placed caches to see why they're there.

 

---------------

wavey.gif Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

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quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:

Cache is in a place commonly off limits to geocaching. Permission to hide, though, is granted.

Someone else in same position of authority tells volunteer/cacher they can remove the caches 'cause they're illegal.

Person removing cache gets an overwhelming sense of authority and jumps the gun in the confiscation process and doesn't seek communication with cachers who placed caches to see why they're there.

 

---------------


 

'cause they're illegal

 

I would like to see chapter and verse of the laws and regulations that make goecaching illegal in a wilderness area. Also where's EIS indicating that they should be illegal?

 

Byron

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Differentiate between “private property”, owned by an individual, and “public property” regulated by the gvt. Unless you run out onto the flight line here on base, you aren’t going to get a cap busted in your @ss, the risk is considerably higher on “private” property. Are you SURE all your caches are on your personal private property and not someone else’s?

 

Here in the forums we can rant and rave and bang our heads on the keyboard if we want. Out in the big world we temper our actions with the desire for safety. I stand by my position, if it ain’t yours – don’t *uck with it.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Differentiate between “private property”, owned by an individual, and “public property” regulated by the gvt. Unless you run out onto the flight line here on base, you aren’t going to get a cap busted in your @ss, the risk is considerably higher on “private” property. Are you SURE all your caches are on your personal private property and not someone else’s?


 

You may, however, be asked to leave the base, as dictated by policy and the interpretation of the policy by those who manage the base.

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Dear Mr. Snazz:

I still fail to see the prohibition in the Wilderness Act that this Ski3pin cites. In fact, the passage I cited earlier (see below) would allow something like Geocaching.

 

Its obvious to me that Ms. Ski3pin is trying to force her own idea of what a wilderness area should be down the rest of our throats and went out of her way to find a sypmathetic ear in the USFS.

 

As several posters here said, the local USFS employees were aware of the existence of the caches and had no problem with them. This means that the caches had at least tacit, or implicit approval. I would think that the local authorities should know best as to what is appropriate in the area they manage. Ski3pin seems to have had other ideas and acted on them.

 

 

Again, here it is:

 

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment.

 

Here is the rest of the act for those who have the time to read it http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/wilderness/wilderness-act.htm

 

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

I would think that the local authorities should know best as to what is appropriate in the area they manage. Ski3pin seems to have had other ideas and acted on them.


 

Jesus H. Christ.

 

Did NOBODY else see the post by Disquoi in which ski3pin indicated that she was asked to remove the caches by her superiors? Aren't THEY the local authorities?

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

 

snazzsig.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

 

Jesus H. Christ.

 

Did NOBODY else see the post by Disquoi in which ski3pin indicated that she was asked to remove the caches by her superiors? Aren't THEY the local authorities?

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

 

http://geo.mrsnazz.com/snazzsig.jpg


 

Did you not see the previous posts where the locals had ask skibum for the names of the peoples of the people who asked her to remove the caches. Anyone who would yank caches like that without trying to contact the owners FIRST might have a bit of a credibility issue.

 

george

 

39570_400.jpg

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

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Jesus H. Christ.

 

Did NOBODY else see the post by Disquoi in which ski3pin indicated that she was asked to remove the caches by her superiors? Aren't THEY the local authorities?

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

 

 

Maybe most feel her comments are suspect.

 

I get the impression that she might enjoy the power trip, otherwise why not pre notify the cache owner BEFORE she grabs it? What ever happened to manners?

 

Just a thought....

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In reading all of the posts, Ski3pin had Forest Service authorization to remove geocaches, Tahoenerne has first hand approval by Forest Service managers to place geocaches. Ok, which of these 2 stories do you believe? They both can't be true.

I truly believe that we do have to look after and preserve our wilderness areas. For the most part, our forests are not a re-newable resource.

Everything has it's 'extreme'. This Ski3pin sounds like an 'extreme', metal spike driving, pain in the @$$, tree hugger.

As to whose story I believe, it sounds to me like Tahoeberne does have Forest service approval for wilderness caches. Ski3pin sounds like a Self-Righteous busy-body who thinks that she/he is the judge, jury, and executioner. I don't believe that Ski3pin had Forest Service authorization to remove caches.

This business of cache nabbing 'legit caches' is quite serious! I hope that it is stopped and that it does not catch on in other places.

 

Keep your powder dry...

Team Smoke

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

Did NOBODY else see the post by Disquoi in which ski3pin indicated that she was asked to remove the caches by her superiors?


 

I saw it. I didn't believe it. Especially since ski3pin has so far refused to name the individuals who told her to remove the caches.

 

Even if she was asked to remove the caches by the appropriate authorities, common courtesy would dictate that she contact the owners first.

 

So either she's a liar or she's a jerk. Either way, she doesn't look too good.

 

For the record, I would never place a cache in a wilderness area without written permission first. My objection is not to the removal of the caches if that is the desire of the authorities; it is to the entirely inappropriate way in which it was done.

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Let me try this again. Unless you have written authorization for all of the caches you've hidden that are NOT on your own property, your caches are in violation of the rules and possibly the law.

 

It's all about degrees of illegality, shades of gray if you will. Every square inch of dry land in this country above the high tide line belongs to someone. The rules say, “get permission”, right? Nothing about trying to get permission or wanting to find the rightful land owner. Say I find a great location just outside the boundary of the city park. I choose to place it here instead of inside the park so that I don’t have to get permission from the city manager. Someone owns this land though, and I don’t have permission to plunk down anything here and you don’t have permission to be there finding it. Suddenly, your whole geocaching world comes crumbling down in a heap of ammo cans, Tupperware, and garbage bags. Jeremy has to be careful in this area; practically the whole game is in the “gray area”. I know there are some really studious folks out there getting permission for every hide (forgetting their finds may be against the rules) but that is the exception.

 

Do you want to venture a guess at how many caches are “properly” hidden? I would say less than 10%. To say the Tahoe caches are wrong and the other 90% are not is hypocritical! You have to place yourself in a position of superior intellect, morality, and knowledge of the rules to make this determination. If there is not a sign at the park entrance that says, “Geocaching is not authorized in the park limits” then I, as a reasonable person of reasonable intellect, will believe it is OK to plunk down my cache. If I am told that there is a reg in place that forbids geocaching by name, I can (and probably will) pull my cache out. If I know from within my intellect that geocaching is specifically forbidden at a given park and I learn there is a cache belonging to someone else then I will mention it in the “not found” log and be done with it.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Let me try this again. Unless you have written authorization for all of the caches you've hidden that are NOT on your own property, your caches are in violation of the rules and possibly the law.


 

I agree with you, Criminal, of course. Personally, I havn't gotten permission for any of the caches that I've placed.

 

My overall point is that, if a person is asked by those who manage/own land to remove caches located on that land, and the caches were placed without permission, the person removing the caches is right in doing so, all questions of courtesy and/or politeness aside. Certainly it would be nice if they contacted cache owners first, or kept their noses out of it entirely, but that's not relevant to whether or not they can "rightly" remove the caches.

 

If somebody removed one of my caches, from an area in which no permission was obtained, I'd certainly feel a sense of loss, but I'd own up to the decision not to get permission.

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quote:
Originally posted by Judy&Dick:

In one of the posts, it indicated they did.


 

Please point out the post in which they indicate that actual permission was obtained (not just implied permission, or "I know for a fact", etc). Maybe I'm missing it.

 

quote:

Do you know this Ski3pin person?


 

No, I don't.

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We are not so far apart on this are we? Nonetheless, a park ranger cannot compel a “volunteer” to any action.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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Part of the problem I see here is that all this mention of asking for permission someone is going to talk their way right in to making that mandatory for all caches placed which will bring things down. I don't know how that would be enforced but I'm sure someone inventive enough will figure it out. So can we please stop arguing that issue.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

Coming Around, New Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

We are not so far apart on this are we? Nonetheless, a park ranger cannot compel a “volunteer” to any action.


 

I tend to agree with most of what you post, actually. icon_smile.gif

 

Can a park ranger ask a volunteer to pick up some "garbage"? icon_smile.gif


 

They can "ask" anything they like I suppose.

 

RangerDick: "Yo Criminal, gwine on out deah an picks up awl de caches yo mights be finin"

 

Criminal: "Bite me."

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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I like the comment by Tahoejoe. Is Ski3pin going to be targeting the ammo boxes at the summit of many mountain peaks next? Where I live, many mountain tops have a pile of rocks and an ammo box with a pencil and notepad inside. When you get to the top you register your conquest. Everybody enjoys doing that, I have found.

 

But I suppose she'll be climbing peaks and stealing those next. Hey, why not, according to her thinking -- they aren't natural up there. If they weren't up there probably nobody would climb the mountains and disturb the flowers and animals. (Just an analogy).

 

How much more enjoyable to have an inconspicuous Geocache in the wilderness. A few people seek it out, carry out any trash they find, and no wilderness is harmed.

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After contacting the Pacific District Ranger Station in Pollock Pines and speaking with the Distric Resource manager, Rich Plate, about his position on geocaches in the Desolation Wilderness area, he stated that his rangers do not go out of their way to remove caches, but if they run across them by chance, they will remove them, and store them in the ranger station for the owner to retrieve them. Mr. Plate is even a casual geocacher and says he enjoys it. He is familiar with our geocaching website and has found several nearby caches in the national forest near to where he lives.

His role as district resource manager is to enforce the law, and it is clear that regulations that are currently effective prohibit geocaches in wilderness areas. This, of course, is the position and rule of the geocaching.com website.

Thus, even though ski3pin has done some volunteer work for the Pacific District Ranger Station, he has actively sought out to remove caches, when in fact this is not the policy of the mentioned ranger station.

As any new information becomes available, I will surely post it.

I also agree with Gear Junkie (posted October 23, 2002 04:36 PM):

 

"Part of the problem I see here is that all this mention of asking for permission someone is going to talk their way right in to making that mandatory for all caches placed which will bring things down."

Even the Pacific Distric Resource manager agrees that asking permission or trying to make it legal to place geocaches in wilderness areas might back-fire and escalate further restrictions--national forests possibly being the next areas for increased regulation.

David Berne

 

[This message was edited by tahoeberne on October 23, 2002 at 05:54 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by tahoeberne on October 23, 2002 at 08:59 PM.]

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There is explicit and implicit permission. If the land managers know of Geocaching activity in their region and do nothing to stop it, then they are giving their tacit approval. Individual rangers often give this approval by not acting to remove Geocaches that they are aware of. They do this because they realize that the benefits of the sport outweigh the negatives. They also know that to go through the bureaucracy to obtain official approval "from above" could take years of debate (see the Northeast forum re caches in PA State Parks).

 

However, once someone complains about the existence of a cache, or asks for an explicit approval, it puts these officials on the spot. It seems to me that the former is what happened here. I still believe that this self-moral, busybody decided that these caches were inappropriate and removed them.

Whether or not she had official approval for her actions is debatable. She hasn't appeared in this forum to defend herself, so we won't know until she does.

 

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on October 23, 2002 at 06:03 PM.]

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quote:
is role as district resource manager is to enforce the law, and it is clear that regulations effective in 1998, that geocaches are not permitted in wilderness areas.

 

Kindly cite these regulations. I haven't been able to find them anywhere.

 

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Ah, so more information comes to light. A do-gooder, whether on her own or not, removes three caches from a national forest, where even a geophyte like myself knows is a no-no.

 

Sounds a little like a situation of over-zealousness meets not playing by the rules.

 

Certainly, Ski3pin is no spokesperson for our pasttime and she could have done things a little differently--a lot differently actually. But still rules are rules.

 

Situations like this are not good for us as a whole. My wife just today placed a cache in an archeological area. She asked for permission and was met with stiff opposition. After explaining what geocaching was all about he allowed the hide--with reservations. It is one where you don't even have to step off the trail--something he was very concerned about. She was restricted to only certain areas of the park because of the sensitivity of the area. We're going to have to make it clear on our page to not step off the trail and make it a multi so not just anyone with coordinates could walk up to it and tromp around. Abuse of the area would most certainly get caches banned in that park.

 

When wind of actions like those in this thread get out to people like those my wife met today we will see fewer and fewer managers willing to allow caches in their area.

 

CR

 

-- Insert pithy aphorism here --

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

Has anyone from here emailed her to try and get some clarification?

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

Coming Around, New Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02


 

Yep, and got the same response as what someone else has already posted.

 

CR

 

-- Insert pithy aphorism here --

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quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

Ah, so more information comes to light. A do-gooder, whether on her own or not, removes three caches from a _national forest_, where even a geophyte like myself knows is a no-no.


 

Apparently you don't know as much as you think you do. Geocaches are, generally speaking, permitted in National Forests. They are forbidden in National Parks, which is probably what you "knew."

 

National Forests are managed by the USDA, while National Parks are managed by the Department of the Interior. Quite different parts of the government.

 

The geocaches in question here were placed in a wilderness area, which is a specially protected part of a National Forest, in which many activities (for example, the use of motor vehicles) are forbidden.

 

Thanks for playing, though.

 

[This message was edited by fizzymagic on October 23, 2002 at 07:03 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

Ah, so more information comes to light. A do-gooder, whether on her own or not, removes three caches from a _national forest_, where even a geophyte like myself knows is a no-no.


 

Maybe it's just semantics but I thought there was a difference between National Parks and National Forests. I was under the impression that it was the National Parks that were forbidden, not the National Forests. I just took a look in Jeremy's own backyard and there are real traditional caches in both National Parks, and National Forests. Certainly if it's allowed in the state that made geocaching famous, then it must not be bad. Unless of course that state is exempt from the regulations that apply to the rest of the country.

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We all know that Geocaching is banned in National Parks. There is some question as to what is a National Park. Generally its any area that is controlled by the National Park Service. In addition to National Parks this would include:

 

National Historic Parks

National Monuments

National Seashores

National Battlefields

National Preserves

National Historic Sites

National Recreation Areas

 

The US Forest Service (USFS) does not administer National Parks, NRA's etc... They administer National Forests, National Grasslands and Wilderness Areas. To my knowledge, there is no ban on Geocaching in USFS administered areas...unless Ski3pin and her ilk get their way.

 

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

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quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

 

Thanks for playing, though.

 


 

There was no point in being rude. You were only partially correct yourself. Wilderness Areas can be found in any nationally administered lands, including National Parks, National Forests, and BLM land.

 

Also for clarification, the National Park Service and the BLM are part of the Department of Interior. The USFS is part of the Department of Agriculture.

 

Thanks,

Brokenwing

 

Scott / Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

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I am not commenting on whether or not caches belong in a National Wilderness Area at this point and I am not commenting on the behavior of the cache placers or ski3pin. I wanted to address the citation from the Wilderness Act quoted by BrianSnat. It says:

 

Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources

 

I added the emphasis of course. No activity connected with evaluating mineral or other resources is disallowed. It doesn't say every activity is allowed. For instance, motor vehicle use or commercial enterprise are specifically prohibited.

 

I have not finished reading the act yet, nor have I even attempted to read related laws and regulations that are able to be legally drafted by the administrative agencies for the purpose of carrying out the agencies' defined functions. I have not yet gotten to the code most likely being cited as banning of caching activity. This being the case, I am certainly NOT saying that such code will not be something completely open to interpretations. I'm just saying that the citation BrianSnat offered is NOT the one that pulls our bacon out of the fire.

 

T-storm

 

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

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Again, it all misses the point. Almost ALL geocaches are in some way or another, illegal, (as in against the rules or against the law) because for the vast majority of them, no permission was ever obtained. It's pointless to argue the legal aspects.

 

The real question is, was this person "right" for taking that which does not belong to her? I say NO.

 

It is not my place as a player of the game to interpret or enforce the rules so I keep my dadgum cakehole shut. Should the sudden desire to place a geocache atop the water tower surrounded by the chain link fence overtake me, I sure as hell don't need some nitwit narking me out. You "find" it if the adventure is to your liking. If not, you don't.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

We all know that Geocaching is banned in National Parks. There is some question as to what is a National Park...

 

One other worthwhile tidbit to add is that (I think) NPS is under the Department of the Interior and USFS is under the Department of Agriculture. Hence the refs in the Wilderness Act to the two agencies working together.

 

Oops, Brokenwing already said that. Echo.. echo... echo....

 

T-storm

 

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

 

[This message was edited by T-storm on October 23, 2002 at 08:04 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

Part of the problem I see here is that all this mention of asking for permission someone is going to talk their way right in to making that mandatory for all caches placed which will bring things down. I don't know how that would be enforced but I'm sure someone inventive enough will figure it out. So can we please stop arguing that issue.


 

I see it from 180 degrees. I think that where geocachers make no attempt to obtain acceptance/permission from land managers they risk creating an enemy for all cachers. Use Georgia State Parks as an example. As I understand it, the Parks dept. there became aware of caches and didn't care for some of the cache contents they found so an anti-caching policy was established. Don't know if they went so far as to write code to support it. No one likes to find out that they have been unaware of something within their purview, especially when there's some sort of flap over it. They tend to feel that it makes them look bad and sometimes vigorous irradication of the offending bit occurs. Like they decide to ban caches. And maybe even sponsor code to provide a force-of-law ban rather than a simple policy of prohibition. And then pursue removing caches and fining (or worse) cachers.

 

No, it's not easy to get code in place to specifically allow something or to change a coded prohibition. I've been a part of an effort to do this kind of thing before, and it took YEARS, lots of worker bee types and even scientific studies to get it done. Often folks in these administrative positions DON'T want to mess with it because they recognize the effort it will take on their part as well and they may be underfunded and understaffed for making that effort. Not to mention how afraid folks are of liability and litigation these days. So if the administrator you approach or the boss they go to for support/confirmation/approval/CYA feels that they have to obtain or change code to give you the go-ahead things could get complex. But some land managers are going to be darned glad that you gave it the thought and effort and tried to understand their position as resource managers, and some of them are going to say YES. There has been great success in Texas State Parks so far and with Army Corps of Engineers in the north Texas area. I'll continue to ask. I haven't been told no yet, and when I someday am, I'll do my best to work to change minds and minimize the impact of that refusal.

 

T-storm

 

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

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quote:
Almost ALL geocaches are in some way or another, illegal, (as in against the rules or against the law) because for the vast majority of them, no permission was ever obtained. It's pointless to argue the legal aspects.

 

The absence of specific permission to place a geocache on public land does not make a geocache illegal. On the contrary, there are few existing laws, or regulations that govern our sport specifically . Some bureaucrats have made the specious argument that geocaches are either litter, or abandoned property and have applied those regulations to geocaching.

 

There is legitimate debate as to whether or not these regulations are being applied properly by the authorities, but to blanket all "unauthorized" geocaches as illegal is just plain ridiculious.

 

Gosh, what kind of country are we living in? Is it really true that unless our government grants sanction to our activity, then it is illegal? We have to say "Please Sir, may I?" This concept frightens me and goes well beyond Geocaching.

 

I changed my trailer specifically for this thread:

"You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind-legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men."

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on October 23, 2002 at 08:16 PM.]

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There has been some misunderstanding in this thread about federal laws as relates to geocaching. I’d like to shed some light on this if I may. Please note that I am not a lawyer and none of this should be considered legal advice. If you have a question about federal law, I recommend talking to a competent attorney.

 

National Park Service:

Currently, there is a national ban on geocaches in National Park Service controlled land. This is not due to any law specifically banning geocaching. It is simply a self imposed ban based on a "morning report" issued by the National Park Service to all offices. The particular morning report in question seems to have been removed for the NPS website, but you can read the text (and more about this issue) here. There have also been reports of individuals being fined by park rangers for "abandoned property" in connection with geocaching in NPS controlled lands. Search the forum archives for more info on that. The best advice I have is avoid all NPS land unless you have deep pockets and want a fight. Also keep in mind that cache listings on geocaching.com will not knowingly be approved if they are on NPS land.

 

US Forest Service:

There is no national ban on geocaching in USFS controlled land. Various USFS regions and stations have banned geocaching for various reasons. This is within their legal right because the law grants to them the authority to control what happens in their forests.

 

Bureau of Land Management:

Pretty much the same as USFS. This I find interesting in that BLM and NPS are both in the Department of Interior. In other words, they share a common boss.

 

Federally Designated Wilderness Areas:

These lands are under the control of the overriding land management area where the WA is. For example, if the WA is within a National Park, then National Park Service rules apply. The Wilderness Act of ’64 is moot. There is not really anything specifically banning geocaching with that law. (Also, the stuff BrianSnat is quoting has nothing to do with geocaching, it grants the USFS the right to do otherwise banned activities if they deem it necessary to manage Wilderness Areas within their control.)

 

What does this mean? In means all agencies have "loopholes" within their federal mandate that give them the authority to issue directives at both the national and local level that have the force of law. In other words, they can create rules for use of the land within their control. It does not require that "laws" be passed for this to happen.

 

The bottom line is that if the agency responsible for this Wilderness Area wants to, they can change their mind 5 times a day on whether or not geocaching will be allowed and there isn’t much we can do about it. I would certainly hope that would be consistent, but they don’t have to be.

 

My best advice is to get written permission for all caches, or don’t complain if they get removed.

 

That said, I think ski3pin was out of line. Even if s/he was legitimately tasked with removing these caches, (there is some doubt about this) it could have been handled better.

 

One final issue: I find it bizarre that tahoeberne has quoted the ranger as stating that regulations made in 1998 prohibit geocaching. Since the sport did not exist until May 2000, how is this possible? We need to get some clarification on this I think.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott / Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

 

[This message was edited by Brokenwing on October 23, 2002 at 08:30 PM.]

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One thing that should be illegal is the avatar brian is using. It keeps scaring me.

 

The only person who has talked to the people in charge is tahoeberne. The rangers KNEW the caches were there and decided to look the other way. Since they were making no active effort to go after the caches, or even email the owners of the cacher to let them know of their concerns it's obvous that geocaching is not high on the priority of 'illegal' activity in the wilderness areas. Kind of like many of those sodomy laws so many states have. When was the last time you had a cop knock on your door to ask if you were sodomizing anyone?

 

Now what if you neighbor turned you in because they saw you going at with your wife through you bedroom window that was accidentally left open? Who expect the neighbor to turn them in? It is against the law isn't it?

 

Skichick is a nosey neighbor that needs to keep her granola crunching atitude to herself.

 

george

 

39570_500.jpg

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

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I’m referring to the extremist view that you have to obtain permission before placing a cache. In reality it is not so. In relevant part:

 

____________________________________________________________

We're assuming that you asked permission to post your cache. However, if we see any listing description mentioning ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing will be automatically archived.

Caches will be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

· Caches on National Park Service maintained lands

· Caches that are buried - If a shovel/trowel/pointy object is used to dig - in order to hide or find a cache - it's not appropriate.

· Caches hidden by active railroad tracks

· Caches near or in military installations

· Caches under public structures deemed targets for terrorist attacks

 

The “rules” are ambiguous at best. I still think those ski folks should mind the own business. That’s the last I have to say on this subject.

 

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Again, it all misses the point. Almost ALL geocaches are in some way or another, illegal, (as in against the rules or against the law) because for the vast majority of them, no permission was ever obtained. It's pointless to argue the legal aspects.

 

The real question is, was this person "right" for taking that which does not belong to her? I say NO.


 

I'm with BrianSnat on this. I don't think that lack of specific permission means the cache is illegally placed.

 

I don't think it's pointless to argue the legal points. I think they are an important part of the conversation. If we could find, for instance, the code a ranger seems to have cited to TahoeBerne and it clearly prohibited the kind of activity required to set a cache, then I believe that complaining about ski3pin is not entirely fair. If she did not, as some have supposed, point out to authorities that caches were placed in the NWA but rather they noticed, knew she was a cacher and asked her to pick them up (seems possible given the info that the ranger is a casual cacher), then complaining about her actions is not entirely fair. Could she have contacted the cachers? Sure. For that matter, do we know for sure that she didn't try? I'm surely not thrilled with the way this whole situation appears to have come down. But we still don't have all the details either.

 

T-storm

 

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

The absence of specific permission to place a geocache on public land does not make a geocache illegal. On the contrary, there are few existing laws, or regulations that govern our sport specifically . Some bureaucrats have made the specious argument that geocaches are either litter, or abandoned property and have applied those regulations to geocaching.

 

There is legitimate debate as to whether or not these regulations are being applied properly by the authorities, but to blanket all "unauthorized" geocaches as illegal is just plain ridiculious.

 

Gosh, what kind of country are we living in? Is it really true that unless our government grants sanction to our activity, then it is illegal? We have to say "Please Sir, may I?" This concept frightens me and goes well beyond Geocaching.

 


 

Well said. I agree completely. An analogy I've used before is that I don't have to specifically ask if it's OK to play frisbee in my local city park; why should I have to do so for geocaching? The whole concept that something is illegal unless specifically made legal is foreign to our legal system.

 

The catch is that some places do consider geocaches "abandoned proberty" or "litter" and act accordingly. It's all about interpretation. I think the best policy may be exactly what the geocaching.com policy states: Ask first. This generally prevents frustration. I would also state that when asking, I generally take the approach that geocaching will be allowed, and I just want to insure they know about it prior to placement.

 

Scott / Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Again, it all misses the point. Almost ALL geocaches are in some way or another, illegal, (as in against the rules or against the law) because for the vast majority of them, no permission was ever obtained. It's pointless to argue the legal aspects.

 


 

Legalalities can be argued if somebody would quote laws by chapter and paragraph that makes anypart of gocaching on public land illegal. So far I not seen any such thing.

 

As far as the USFS is concerned I don't believe there is a real law or section in the wilderness act that makes geocaching illegal. I also believe that inorder to change the law or rules governing the actions of anybody on USFS lands, including wilderness areas require an Environmental Impact Study (EIS) before they can be changed. In the cases where the USFS is trying to stop geocaching in wilderness areas, it appears to me, they trying to make rules with no basis other than somebodies wanting to say no.

 

Byron

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