Removal of caches from the Lake Tahoe Desolation Wilderness

October 22, 2002

A self-appointed cache remover--Ski3pin--has infitrated the Desolation Wilderness area which is my home now for 26 years. Ski3pin's rationale, of course, is that these wilderness caches are violations of stated regulations. However, most of the caches have existed for over a year, are known by some of the local forest service personnel and are not perceived any envionmental concern.

Having worked with the forest service on educational projects in the areas of biology, wildife habitat, and trail maintenance -- and discussing geocaching with them -- their response was positive and that it poses no significant problem, especially since the real concern is that Desolation Wilderness receives the highest number of visitors who camp, hike, fish, and swim. The forest service's concern is the impact of erosion, waste contamination of streams and lakes, campsite alterations and misuse, etc. Hence, the few cachers that frequent the area make a neglible impact, or even improve the area by "cache in, trash out" behavior. Yet, Ski3pin brazenly announces his systematic removal of the caches with posts on the website. Ski3pin's flagrant disregard of first contacting both the cache placers and/or the forest service authorities shows no attempt toward a more ethical and cooperative manner. Rather, direct and untempered theft is their behavior. I hope this issue invites a rich response.

TahoeBerne of the TahoeCachers.

David Berne

[This message was edited by tahoeberne on October 22, 2002 at 08:10 PM.]

2.6k · October 22, 2002

Does this person even have the decency to contact the cache owners before hand. How about returning the caches to the cache owners. Or do they just keep the caches?

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

October 22, 2002

Maybe, Ski3pin is a tightwad. You know too cheap to spend $5 on an ammo can, so he/she steals other's to take advantage of the "premade cache" someone else has worked hard on.

Just my irritated input.

___________________________________________

It's not what you fling,

It's the FLING itself.

October 22, 2002

As a resident of Lake Tahoe and also a member of the TahoeCachers, I’m also very irritated at the behavior of **Ski3pin** and their blatant lack of self decency for other geocachers. What a shame for the geocachers who took the time to place these caches for others to enjoy and to watch and maintain these caches for over a year only to have someone come in take them because they didn’t like where they were placed. I’m also a teacher in Lake Tahoe who worked with the Forest Service this past summer in the area of biology and the restoration of historic sites and I know for a fact that there were no problems with the location of these caches. Being the most used wilderness area in the United States, geocachers practicing the policy of trash in and trash out are helping to keep Desolation Wilderness a great place for visitors to enjoy. If the Forest Service would have had a problem with the caches (which they didn’t) then it is up to them to deal with the situation and not the responsibility of **Ski3pin.** Let’s hope that Ski3pin does the right thing and puts the caches back where they belong. What they did in my opinion is nothing short of thievery of caches.If I were a member of the geopolice I would fine them and revoke their right to geocache! I hope that others feel the way I do.

TahoeJoe of the TahoeCachers

October 22, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by TahoeJoe:
If I were a member of the geopolice I would fine them and revoke their right to geocache! I hope that others feel the way I do.

TahoeJoe of the TahoeCachers

October 22, 2002

Set a trap cache. Nothing to hurt anyone just say its a day one only and watch it to see who shows up looking for it.

October 22, 2002

I looked up the caches found by Ski3pin. Looks like there have been 65 found and 3 hidden. The last found was 10/6/2002. Nothing more recent was listed. Couldn't find any posts to the forum. Which makes me wonder where this person is posting the removal information.

Byron

October 22, 2002

The caches that have been removed are:

ALOHA BABY (California)

Stop Grousing (California)

Halfway There! (California)

October 23, 2002

I wish Ski3pin would show his/her/their face here and give an explanation as to what directly gives them the right to remove these caches outright. I could see them notifying a Park Ranger or something to that extent if they saw it as a problem, or perhaps even contacting the cache maintainers notifying them of the problem. Their direct removal of these caches without any sort of consideration from outside sources disgusts me.

Doug

5.3k · October 23, 2002

Here are the appropriate links:

Aloha Baby

Stop Grousing

Halfway There!

In my opinion, this user should get kicked off this site and all their logs should be deleted. Removal of other peoples' caches without authorization is unacceptable behavior.

October 23, 2002

One of the caches set by ski is in the Toyobe National Forest in Nevada. Why don't we email the person and get their side. I agree they shouldn't be doing this.

You can't be lost if you don't care where you are.

1.6k · October 23, 2002

I reminds me of the uppity people that live in the neighborhood who are always into your business. Half the junk they spout that you've supposedly violated doesn't even exist in the covenents and restrictions. Then they don't bother coming to YOU with their concern, they call the cops, code enforcement, or walk around the neighborhood trying to get petitions against you.

I'm sure glad they moved--as are most of the neighbors. They moved to a neightborhood where you can't leave your car in your driveway overnight or leave your garage door open for more than 15 minutes.

This turkey is a common criminal, simple as that. It's simply theft of personal property.

In fact, I think I'm gonna email them and invite them over the explain their actions.

CR

-- Insert pithy aphorism here --

38.2k · October 23, 2002

When I first started reading this thread, I figured Ski3pin was a self-appointed anti-Geocacher. After checking her profile, I was surprised to find that she was a real Geocacher with a number of finds and several hides.

If she has a problem with the placement of a cache, she should first contact the cache owner, then this website and if her concerns are still not allayed, the park authorities. Instead, this pompous, horse's rear has appointed herself cache cop. In reality she's nothing but a thief. Sadly, there isn't really much we can do outside e-mailing this self-righteous, jerk and letting her know what we think.

Her name gives her away. She's one of those granola chomping, hippie, telemark skiers and probably a member of some psuedo-environmental org. such as Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, Earth First, or ELF. But I digress...

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on October 23, 2002 at 05:18 AM.]

2.6k · October 23, 2002

Since she's taken 3 cacahes and has hidden three caches, some one should take her 3 caches and place them where the ones she took were.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

October 23, 2002

From Ski3pin:

"I can understand [Tahoeberne's] anger, but I believe we probably share some pretty solid common ground and that is the belief that Wilderness is indeed a pretty special place. The Wilderness Act of 1964 describes the qualities that define Wilderness and the various regulations and rules that our land mangers come up with are put in place to help preserve those special qualities. On the surface, I’d probably agree with you about what does a geocache hurt and what’s the big deal. It is kind of a little issue in the big picture. But here’s the rub, how do we choose which rules to bend? And if we bend this one, how about the people who like wood fires, should they be able to bend that rule? Or how about the snowmobilers who say they never touch the ground because they are on top of the snow and therefore do no damage? This is how I handle this decision-making dilemma. I go back to a habit I have learned from many years of backcountry travel: err on the side of caution. Therefore, if there’s a question about the appropriateness of placing geocaches and meeting the spirit of Wilderness regulations, I say geocaches should not be in designated Wilderness. And, on top of this, we are blessed living in such a great area that gives us so many neat places outside of Wilderness to put geocaches. This way we don’t even have to push the issue, especially since it’s such a small issue. Thanks for the reminder to help clean up and watch what we do to protect Wilderness. We can never be reminded too much to do that. I am an Eldorado National Forest volunteer. I am lucky enough to be able to help the Forest with all kinds of projects, large and small. As part of this volunteer work I was asked to pick up geocaches placed in the Wilderness when I was in their vicinity. I have done that and turned them in to the USFS folks. The owners of the geocaches have been notified about where they can pick up their geocaches. I hope I have clearly stated my argument and shown respect for your different viewpoint."

(I have added the bold)

If she was asked by the Forest Management, I'd say she is authorized to perform this service. If the cache placer has some kind of permission to have placed the cache (a stated requirement by Jeremy's policy), then those in forest management need to communicate between themselves better.

October 23, 2002

...Don't enforce the speed limit yourself by driving 5 MPH under the speed limit in the left lane. You're not a cop. Let the authorities handle the situation. (NO, this wasn't something I did - just some defensive driving conversation)

If not doing something illegal, she certain is being nothing less than disrespectful and downright hateful.

If she IS doing something legal and under the authority of the USFS, she should have the decency to ask first.

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

38.2k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Therefore, if there’s a question about the appropriateness of placing geocaches and meeting the spirit of Wilderness regulations, I say geocaches should not be in designated Wilderness.

Note the statement in bold. I wonder if the USFS was really concerned about the presence of these caches, or if Ski3pin made a big deal about them, then volunteered to fetch them. Since Tahoberne says the local USFS authorities were aware of the cache's presence and had no problem with them, I wonder who gave her the go ahead to steal the caches. She must have gone over someone's head to do this.

Anyway, as others mentioned here, she should have contacted the cache owner with her concerns, rather than appoint herself guardian of the wilderness; or at the very least, she should have mentioned on whose authority she was removing the caches in her logs.

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

October 23, 2002

So, I wonder what she DID do with the ammocans? Maybe keep them? Maybe dump them in a stream?

And the contents... Are they now hers? Distributed amongst the other 'volunteers'?

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

October 23, 2002

I question if Ski3pin actually had permission to remove these caches. If you read their description of their cache The Crotchety Cache they state their stand on caches in wilderness areas quite well, "Because we believe that geocaches should not be placed in official Wilderness areas, this cache is outside the Desolation Wilderness Boundary (by a few yards!).Have fun! "

I would like the names of the officials who asked them to remove the caches so that I can contact them and verify this information.

38.2k · October 23, 2002

I just looked up and read the entire text of the Wilderness Act of 1964 that Ski3pin cites. I could find nothing banning "caching". In fact the practice of caching is one used by many long distance backpackers. I did find this however:

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment.

I think Ski3pin is trying to force her own concept of wilderness on others, so I still believe that she is a pompous, self-righteous, jerk.

BTW, here is the entire text of the act if anybody is interested.

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on October 23, 2002 at 09:16 AM.]

38.2k · October 23, 2002

quote:
If the cache placer has some kind of permission to have placed the cache (a stated requirement by Jeremy's policy )

This website has no requirement to obtain permission to place a Geocache, unless its on private land. They only ask that you contact the land manager to find out what their policy is.

October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
This website has no requirement to obtain permission to place a Geocache, unless its on private land. They only ask that you contact the land manager to find out what their policy is.

To hide a new geocache in your area...

Please make sure to obtain permission from the landowner or land manager prior to placing your geocache.

Source: http://www.geocaching.com/hideseek/

What's unclear about this? If the cache placer had permission, he should present this to the managers who asked Ski3pin to remove the caches in question. Is the problem that she didn't ask the cache placer first? Would you expect the land manager to ask first?

As a fellow geocacher, I think it would have been the polite thing to do. If, in fact, permission was granted by the proper authority to place the cache, it would be nice to have a chance to present it prior to removal. However, assuming that she was asked to remove these caches (as she claims), I support the removal of the caches.

Also, no need to throw names. We are adults.

38.2k · October 23, 2002

I was looking at a different page on the website which says:

If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules.

I guess they have conflicting info on the site.

Anyway, I still question whether the land manager here really was concerned about these caches, or if Ski3pin was the one making a stink about them.

"Men don't stop playing because they get old, they get old because they stop playing" Oliver Wendell Holmes

October 23, 2002

The issue here is Ski3pin stole these caches from Desolation Wilderness. Ski3pin is not an employee of The National Forest Service and therefore has no right to remove these caches. If I did volunteer work for the police department, does that give me the authority to go out and give tickets to people jay walking or littering? What's next on Ski3pin list, to remove the log books on mountain summits in Desolation areas because they don't fit in Ski3pins idea of a perfect environment.

I'm still waiting for the names of the officials who told them to remove these caches. I'm also not aware of any current volunteer projects which would take Ski3pin into Desolation Wilderness. The last official project I know of was the placement of animal track plates which was finished in mid August. It looks like Ski3pin went knocking on enough doors until she found someone who shares her way of thinking. If we had more geocachers like her, pretty soon there would be no more caches left to find.

[This message was edited by TahoeJoe on October 23, 2002 at 11:05 AM.]

1.5k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by TahoeJoe:
If I did volunteer work for the police department, does that give me the authority to go out and give tickets to people jay walking or littering?

Volunteers for the National Forest Service are often tasked to perform functions such as employees would normally perform. Were this the case for police services, your analogy would be substantive; as it stands, it is not.

If the owners of the caches had actual (not implied!) permission to place them, then the removal was wrong. If not, you have no basis to whine about it.

October 23, 2002

quote:
Volunteers for the National Forest Service are often tasked to perform functions such as employees would normally perform. Were this the case for police services, your analogy would be substantive; as it stands, it is not.

If the owners of the caches had actual (not implied!) permission to place them, then the removal was wrong. If not, you have no basis to whine about it.

Volunteers are not law enforcement officers of the Forest Service last I heard and therefore they should not be involved with the enforcement of rules. As soon as Ski3pin gives me the names of the people she talked to, and I can verify this by talking to them, I will stop my whining!

1.5k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by TahoeJoe:
Volunteers are not law enforcement officers of the Forest Service last I heard and therefore they should not be involved with the enforcement of rules. As soon as Ski3pin gives me the names of the people she talked to, and I can verify this by talking to them, I will stop my whining!

Volunteers may be asked to pick up and remove trash, or other abandoned property. Unless permission was granted to place the caches, they may very well have been considered to be abandoned property by the NFS.

5.9k · October 23, 2002

IMHO: If it ain't yours, dont fu*k with it. If someone places a cache on a moving train that requires a finder to jump aboard, so be it. I can't/won't hunt it for obvious reasons. Nevertheless, it ain't mine so I wouldn't f*ck with it. I would mind my own dadgum business.

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

3k · October 23, 2002

My Dimes worth is this:

As a volunteer you do what is asked of you and may not know better at times.

As a Geocacher you should know better and act on it in a way that most Geocachers would and I think that would be by contacting the cache owners or whatever means was necessary as to not step on too many toes without an explaination. Since that doesn't make any sense, what I am saying is that if I was in the skiers shoes and was a geocacher asked to remove these caches I would probably leave them but if I had do remove them then I would contact the owner and explain what was going on and even give them the chance to do it themselves. I think being a part of this community you have that certain respect for 'your own'.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Coming Around, New Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

October 23, 2002

quote:
Volunteers may be asked to pick up and remove trash, or other abandoned property. Unless permission was granted to place the caches, they may very well have been considered to be abandoned property by the NFS.

You make the NFS sound so cold, Lets be realistic the NFS and Ski3pin know that geocaches are not trash or abandoned property. Lake Tahoe is a small community and I work and interact with many of the employees of the Forest Service. I even work on projects with them during the summer so that I can take this back into the classroom for my students. The Forest Service knew about these caches for over a year. We even were by some of them last summer and they thought it sounded like fun and a great way to get visitors into the backcountry. Ski3pin should have been promoting geocaching to the Forest Service and informing them of the positive things it does for the community. None of these caches that were removed were mine, I just don't like someone coming into our community and removing them. Many cachers look forward to coming up to Lake Tahoe to escape the heat during summer and spend a weekend enjoying the mountains and geocaching. I hate to see fewer caches in our area. What a horrible example Ski3pin is setting for her students.

[This message was edited by TahoeJoe on October 23, 2002 at 12:41 PM.]

3k · October 23, 2002

So do those caches count as finds to her account?

______________________________________________________________________________________

Coming Around, New Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

October 23, 2002

Y'know, the funny things is, ski3pin has taken it upon themselves to remove caches from the Desolation Wilderness Area. But as near as I can tell one of their own caches, The Crotchety Cache, might well be in the same wilderness area!

It's impossible to tell for sure. But I punched in the coordinates in Mapppoint and zoomed as far in as I possibly could...at best, the cache is maybe ten yards outside the boundary for the Desolation Wilderness area. But since we have no idea what the accuracy of ski3pin's GPS was when they placed it, it's entirely possible the cache is sitting in the same place that they've been making such a stink about caches being in.

I wonder if they'll do unto their own cache as they've done to others and pull their cache? Somehow I doubt it.

1.5k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by TahoeJoe:
You make the NFS sound so cold, Lets be realistic the NFS and Ski3pin know that geocaches are not trash or abandoned property.

The fact of the matter is, it has been stated by several agencies that caches are considered abandoned property under their rules and regulations. It isn't a matter of what you consider to be "realistic".

October 23, 2002

What does jeremy think about all this? Personally I think this ski3pin is a big freaking know-it-all do gooder.

How about this...

If those 3 caches that are being held hostage are not replaced, i'll cut down 3 freakin' trees in the desolation wilderness. I'll oil my blade while I wait for a response.....

KURTULEAS

October 23, 2002

But does it require tromping through the delicate wilderness to access the cache? I mean after all, what good is a cache outside of the 'official boundaries' if you're gonna 'tromp' through the wilderness to get to it?

Funny. The difference between this side of the imaginary line called a boundary and that side of the line is beauracracy.

In all this mudpie serving, I've noticed that none of the three caches have been archived, nor requested to be archived (using the "Cache Should Be Archived" radio button), nor temporarily disabled. Now, I know that Jeremy is very prudent in reading posts here, but he's been pretty quiet on this issue.

Has anyone contacted him about this? Has he made any comment to Ski3pin or to the cache owners?

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

5.9k · October 23, 2002

I think we're missing the point here folks. Do they have the AUTHORITY to pull any cache? Geocaching is more than just geocaching.com, there are other sites and possibly non web based caching as well. If it ain't yours, don't fuc* with it!

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

1.5k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by kurtuleas:
If those 3 caches that are being held hostage are not replaced, i'll cut down 3 freakin' trees in the desolation wilderness. I'll oil my blade while I wait for a response.....

A volunteer from the Adopt-A-Highway program removed one of my caches, so I'm planning to burn down their offices unless they return it.

How dare they!

1.7k · October 23, 2002

Here is what I would suggest, from the phrasing of the response from ski3pin the choice to remove caches was theirs alone based on their interpretation of the law.

Replace the removed caches, but this time get express written permission from the local authorities that you have dealt with in th past and make sure to let them know what is going on. Then e-mail a scanned copy to ski3pin and place a copy in the cache. This way you can show that you are following Geocaching guidelines and have permission of the land managers.

It bothers me that they have a cache in national forest, but removes other caches from same. Written permission should deal with this.

Also by alerting the local authorities they may know who this person is, especially if they work as a volunteer. Maybe they can have a chat with them as well.

1.5k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
I think we're missing the point here folks. Do they have the AUTHORITY to pull any cache? Geocaching is more than just geocaching.com, there are other sites and possibly non web based caching as well. If it ain't yours, don't fuc* with it!

If they were, in fact, asked by the forest service to remove the caches, then yes, they did have the authority.

October 23, 2002

Just make a copy of this thread, put it in an ammobox and hide it out in the wilderness for ski3pin to find.

Her silence is indicative of non-participation in the forums (to be expected...I'll bet only 25% of geocachers ever come here, and only about a tenth of them probably post).

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

3k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:

I'll bet only 25% of geocachers ever come here, and only about a tenth of them probably post).

I would agree with that and I feel that my posting habits make up for the 95% that don't post here.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Coming Around, New Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

1.7k · October 23, 2002

I hope Jeremy can provide us with some insight, as the owner of the website perhaps in can come to some sort of reasonable solution with ski3pin.

HELLO JEREMY, TESTING, TESTING, ONE, TWO, THREE

October 23, 2002

Uh oh.

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

5.9k · October 23, 2002

Am I understanding this correctly? The ski-folks went on the geocaching website and discovered that there were caches hidden in a park where they volunteer their time. They inform park officials who authorize them to remove the caches or containers. So now they are deputized to judge the correctness of other people’s geocaches?

BULLSH*T!

There are a few “feuds” going on in the geocache world, they pop up in the forums every so often. I guess we need some more right? So then what happens? A cache owner who’s pissed because someone stole their container goes to Taco Bell, eats fifteen burritos, and then fills the thief’s cache with a big surprise. Woof-poof, new feuds!

We have the right to hide/find a cache anywhere we like. We generally don’t hide/find them in a place we know to be against the rules or forbidden under the law. Last week I declined a “first find” because I didn’t want to disregard private property signs. Another cacher did log it though. Is it any of my business to report or remove the cache? NO! I reserve the right to break the law, well aware of the consequences. It is by choice, my choice, that I don’t.

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

October 23, 2002

Back home, self righteous folks like this often end up the guests of honor at a "Blanket Party"!

1.5k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Am I understanding this correctly? The ski-folks went on the geocaching website and discovered that there were caches hidden in a park where they volunteer their time. They inform park officials who authorize them to remove the caches or containers. So now they are deputized to judge the correctness of other people’s geocaches?

Dude, do you read what you write? Do you look at the words, contemplate the meanings?

If the park officials authorize them to remove caches located in the wilderness area, what do you suppose that means? Think about it.

Think some more.

Yes, that's right. It means they are authorized to remove the caches.

October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
We have the right to hide/find a cache anywhere we like. We generally don’t hide/find them in a place we know to be against the rules or forbidden under the law. Last week I declined a “first find” because I didn’t want to disregard private property signs. Another cacher did log it though. Is it any of my business to report or remove the cache? NO! I reserve the right to break the law, well aware of the consequences. It is by choice, my choice, that I don’t.

If a cache is blatantly 'against the guidelines', Jeremy has provided a "Cache should be archived" radio button on every log page. In Jeremy's infinite wisdom, this act will set off a series of events to allow the placer to either argue his case against why the cache shouldn't be moved or give the placer a chance to retrieve his own property.

Jeremy ain't the law, but he does offer a version of 'due process' which should be respected by every cacher.

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

5.9k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Snazz:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Am I understanding this correctly? The ski-folks went on the geocaching website and discovered that there were caches hidden in a park where they volunteer their time. They inform park officials who authorize them to remove the caches or containers. So now they are deputized to judge the correctness of other people’s geocaches?

Dude, do you read what you write? Do you look at the words, contemplate the meanings?

If the park officials authorize them to remove caches located in the wilderness area, what do you suppose that means? Think about it.

Think some more.

Yes, that's right. It means they are _authorized to remove the caches_.

Are you saying the park officials KNEW about the caches and asked these people to remove them?

OR

Was the communication initiated by the Ski folks?

I'm leaning towards the second. IMHO they should MIND THEIR OWN dadgum BUSINESS!

Yes, there is a radio button there; I'm under no obligation to use it.

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

1.5k · October 23, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Are you saying the park officials KNEW about the caches and asked these people to remove them?

OR

Was the communication initiated by the Ski folks?

Does it matter? If somebody is camped out on my lawn, and I don't notice, but my gardener does, is it wrong for me to ask that my gardener request the intruder depart?

October 23, 2002

quote:
Does it matter? If somebody is camped out on my lawn, and I don't notice, but my gardener does, is it wrong for me to ask that my gardener request the intruder depart?

This is not your yard we are talking about but land which is designated for the public to enjoy. Mr. Snazz you have people camp out on your yard? Your gardener must not being a very good job.

Removal of caches from the Lake Tahoe Desolation Wilderness

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