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Stats "Right to Know"


Bloencustoms

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Not looking to start a thread about whether there should be an official stats page, there are enough of those. Lets imagine there already is a stats page. How do you feel about the ability to opt out? Do cachers have a right to know other's stats? Or should people who do not wish to participate have the option to withold their stats from being displayed?

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If people were able to opt out, there would be no point to a stats page. What good would it be if only some people are listed. I don't think people have a right to know, but the info is there. All you have to do is look at someone's profile, so what's the difference if that info is used to create a stats page?

 

If people are seriously against people knowing how many finds they have, they should just post notes instead of 'found its'.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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I like the opt in as well. However, say I was the #15 cacher in a state. I would like to see cachers 1-14 in the list even if they haven't opted in. But instead of their name showing up, have "anonymous" or some other name. That gives the people who like the stats the ability to see full, meaningful, and worthwhile stats, while still allowing those who wish to remain anonymous hidden.

 

--RuffRidr

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BrianSnat nailed it. If you could opt out there is no point to the page. It would not be accurate (ignore that you can lie your way to the top) and pointless.

 

Plus the other things would not work like seeing recent logs in your area because people would have opted out of that as well.

 

Stats and a leaderboard are only one of the things you can do with the information.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

Do cachers have a right to know other's stats?


 

Cachers have access to this data now. I can look at another member's finds or his placements or his totals. It's just not in summarized, ranked lists.

 

Stats pages would just summarize the data that's already there and present it in sortable format.

 

No reason to withhold data that's already there.

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I agree with BS (I also noticed his initials are intersting... icon_smile.gif )

 

quote:
Originally posted by CacheMonkeez:

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

Do cachers have a right to know other's stats?


 

Cachers have access to this data now. I can look at another member's finds or his placements or his totals. It's just not in summarized, ranked lists.

 

Stats pages would just summarize the data that's already there and present it in sortable format.

 

No reason to withhold data that's already there.


 

I agree. People can still demean others with less finds. I beleive that the format that user profiles has (showing totals by cache type) may lead to MORE name calling. People could be picked on for finding virtual caches or locationless caches. There are a lot of IFs out there.

 

It doesn't have to be about who's ranked where - but the existance of the ranking list allows lots of statistics and other useful information to be utilized.

 

The information is already there - it could easily be organized.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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quote:
Originally posted by RuffRidr:

I like the opt in as well. However, say I was the #15 cacher in a state. I would like to see cachers 1-14 in the list even if they haven't opted in. But instead of their name showing up, have "anonymous" or some other name. That gives the people who like the stats the ability to see full, meaningful, and worthwhile stats, while still allowing those who wish to remain anonymous hidden.

 

--RuffRidr


 

OK, then. Any thoughts on this suggestion? Seems like a good way to make everyone happy. You get accurate statistics, you just don't know who you have more finds than. I think that's fair. Is it not enough to know that you have the most finds in your state/county/city? Must you know who you have more finds than?

 

This suggestion, coupled with limiting access to the stats portion of the profile page of people who opt out, will allow players to keep their stats personal.

It seems like most people want a stats page, and eventually it will be implemented. Many prior arguments state that stats are a way to track fellow cachers while on vacation. If your friend goes on vacation without opting into the stats, you have to respect his decision. If he wants you to know his find count, he'll tell you. icon_wink.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

BrianSnat nailed it. If you could opt out there is no point to the page. It would not be accurate (ignore that you can lie your way to the top) and pointless.


 

It would not be accurate in the sense that there may be someone out there with more finds than the top ranked cacher, sure. But they aren't playing the same game.

There could be some guy living in some little villiage in a remote part of the world who has the potential to break every olympic track record, but he isn't playing either. Does that make the winner of the gold medal less entitled to their prize?

I don't think that being the top ranked cacher amongst participating competitors carries any less glory if there is some unknown out there with more finds. Sure, he could allways opt in one day and take the prize. Boxers come out of nowhere and take the belts from champions. That's sports for ya. Sport / pastime, hmm...

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i once spent some time with some psychiatric patients who used the phrase to signal when they were beginning to find any topic tedious. or if they were attempting to cut it off before it began.

 

since it's too late for one, you can assume the other.

 

i stand by my failure to make a statement.

 

how 'BOUT then sox? and where ARE the moderators, indeed?

 

lovely weather we're having... do you think it will rain?

 

-====)) -))))))))))))

presta schrader

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quote:
Originally posted by Czarniecki314:

I want the stats page. I loved the one that was up for a while. I was #28 in VT tied with Marc Gorsage. I was waiting until I beat him -- but now I'll never know...

 

Me and you and a dog named Boo...


I believe it is a valid topic for discussion. Czarniecki314, you are not on topic. Please keep the discussion going only regarding the hypothetical question asked in the first post.

 

mtn-man... admin brick mason 19490_2600.gif

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Yep, stats summarized, I'd like to see by state, country and grand total. If someone opts out or doesn't opt in then their name would not show up but their stats still would.

 

I've been keeping track of the cachers who have over 1000 finds but I know I'm missing a half dozen who have over 1200 finds. If anyone happens to have a list I'd like to see it.

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quote:
Originally posted by RuffRidr:

I like the opt in as well. However, say I was the #15 cacher in a state. I would like to see cachers 1-14 in the list even if they haven't opted in. But instead of their name showing up, have "anonymous" or some other name. That gives the people who like the stats the ability to see full, meaningful, and worthwhile stats, while still allowing those who wish to remain anonymous hidden.

 

--RuffRidr


 

This sounds like a great way to go.

 

icon_mad.gifFormer EarthNOlink user!!!!!!!!! icon_mad.gif

 

icon_biggrin.gifTake a chance or you'll never know. Let your spirits soar! icon_wink.gif

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If there had to be "opt option" I'd rather it be opt-out than opt-in. That way everybody is included except those who specifically don't want to be.

 

I also like RuffRidr's idea of listing everyone, but using "anonymous" for those who opt out.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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While i like the idea of a stat page I can see where it can get way out of hand. Has anyone of you ever played an online game that ranked players? Take yahoo ladders for example, the people there tend to get nasty, not the nice and warm fuzzy nasty that we see on this forum, I mean really nasty. I could see a whole lot of people getting banned from posting, and to a lot of hard feelings between cachers. On the flip side it could make the next geocache event alot more interesting, set up a boxing ring and have at it lol.

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quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

While i like the idea of a stat page I can see where it can get way out of hand. Has anyone of you ever played an online game that ranked players? Take yahoo ladders for example, the people there tend to get nasty, not the nice and warm fuzzy nasty that we see on this forum, I mean really nasty. I could see a whole lot of people getting banned from posting, and to a lot of hard feelings between cachers. On the flip side it could make the next geocache event alot more interesting, set up a boxing ring and have at it lol.


 

The difference between this and yahoo is that there is a LOT of interaction between geocachers. Geocachers exchange email. They know the general location of other geocachers. They sometimes geocache together. They attend group meetings. I know of quite a few that met this way and hang out when they're not geocaching Yahoo games are fairly anonymous and that leads to people behaving poorly in a lot of cases.

 

Dan's site was well liked by all of the people I've met personally (and that I've discussed it with). Dan's site didn't lead to anymore nastiness than occurs now.

 

Actually, it did make event caches more interesting - there was a bit of good natured ribbing - but that is quickly over with as people tell the stories behind the numbers.

 

 

I also agree it should be OPT OUT.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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quote:
While i like the idea of a stat page I can see where it can get way out of hand.

 

There was a geocaching stats page for a couple of years and there weren't any more problems than there are now.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

quote:
While i like the idea of a stat page I can see where it can get way out of hand.

 

There was a geocaching stats page for a couple of years and there weren't any more problems than there are now that its gone.

 

_"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm_


 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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To clarify, by opt out I mean that all methods for researching a users find count would be removed. The number above their post would go, as would the ability to view the second page of their profile (by others). Also they would be removed from the "search for caches found by user".

 

A possibilty for people wishing to track their friend's activities would be a buddy list of sorts. You could enable people in your buddy list, and they would then have the ability to see their friends stats breakdown in the profile.

The buddy list feature would have to be opt in, because an "exclude user" option would be useless once they have already seen the stats breakdown. In addition the buddy list feature would have to be enabled by a concious act on the part of the user, in order to prevent their profile stats from being hidden inadvertantly.

The leaderboard would, and probably should, remain opt out with anonymous stats.

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

quote:
While i like the idea of a stat page I can see where it can get way out of hand.

 

There was a geocaching stats page for a couple of years and there weren't any more problems than there are now.

 

_"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm_


I wasen't on when the stat page was up, how many members were there then? Do you think that the number of members on now opposed to how many on then would effect the way people react to a stat page? Again I'm not against it just asking questions here.

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quote:
Originally posted by notec:

I dont see why anyone would care if their stats are posted. What would be next....# of posts??? Come on people its not a big deal. Its not like your asked to whip it out and compare size....its just a game!!!!

 

If it doesn't hurt your not doing it right


 

Oddly enough there the number of posts is tracked and we celebrate folks for milestones in posts too. Besides that, what games don't have some sort of score and a winner or leader?

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icon_cool.gif I dont believe the other stats page caused any problems other then a headache for the person that maintained it. Stats are a way to compare yourself against your peers. And I think at one time I was in the top 24 or 25 in the country and it was competitive with a few others. In the last 16 months I've really slacked off but it would still be nice to see where I stand. (Tongue in cheek) Maybe we could have different divisions, juniors, adult, seniors over 60, and lets not forget womens divisions either icon_biggrin.gif

 

All who look are not lost

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There are certainly problems associated with stats. One doesn't have to look far to see people lording their find count over others in the forums. How many times have we seen people say "Go find some caches before you..."? It will continue in one form or another endlessly.

The extra help moderating the forums is making a difference, but with stats available people still make judgements based upon them. Even if no one ever says "Go find some caches", the silent judgement is still there. An opt out feature allows people to remove themselves from being "ranked" in more ways than one.

 

Once again, this thread is not about stats or no stats. Assuming there is a stats page, the question is whether people should be able to hide their stats if they so choose.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

There are certainly problems associated with stats. One doesn't have to look far to see people lording their find count over others in the forums. How many times have we seen people say "Go find some caches before you..."? It will continue in one form or another endlessly.

The extra help moderating the forums is making a difference, but with stats available people still make judgements based upon them. Even if no one ever says "Go find some caches", the silent judgement is still there. An opt out feature allows people to remove themselves from being "ranked" in more ways than one.


But everyone's profile will still have find #'s in them...what difference does a "leaderboard" make??

 

stunod_sig.gif

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

Eamus Catuli AC145895

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Stunod, see my above post.

 

quote:
To clarify, by opt out I mean that all methods for researching a users find count would be removed. The number above their post would go, as would the ability to view the second page of their profile (by others). Also they would be removed from the "search for caches found by user".

 

I'm fine with a leaderboard, I just belive cachers should have the option not to be listed on it.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

Once again, this thread is not about stats or no stats. Assuming there is a stats page, the question is whether people should be able to hide their stats if they so choose.


 

Yep, you are correct. It's tough to keep that straight with so many threads weaving in and around the stats.

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Time to fire some shots. A leader board does cause a bit of elitist activity. While I haven't been on this forum very long I have had people say, with only # of caches you've found who are you to judge. I judge by what I see, but that desn't matter to the ones that lord their more finds over me. As for posts in the forum I have gotten the same response, one response was "another n00b heard from", so don't tell me that some people here do not take the stats as validation of their status. Others state I've been on since 2002 and cop the attitude of who are you to question me? I have be online for quite along time and I've seen the same in any and every forum I have been in, its human nature to compete with your peers, and it will happen here if a stat board is opened. I see nothing wrong with that as long as it is moderated, I know I sometimes cross the line and need a little yank by an admin to check myself so as long as it is moderated then lets have at it.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

I'm fine with a leaderboard, I just belive cachers should have the option not to be listed on it.


 

In that case, I'm OK with the suggestion of ruffrider...include an "Anonymous" entry on the list for each cacher who opted out.

But this leads to a new question...how do we "self police" bogus finds under anonymous accounts?

 

stunod_sig.gif

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

Eamus Catuli AC145895

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quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

 

I wasen't on when the stat page was up, how many members were there then? Do you think that the number of members on now opposed to how many on then would effect the way people react to a stat page? Again I'm not against it just asking questions here.


 

Xitron - Dan's stats page went down a little over a month ago (I'm not sure if it wsa even that long but I guess it was). The number of geocachers is not significantly higher since then.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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Hey BC. While I'm a fan I'm also going to disagree with you on this one, but it's just a minor dissagreement...lol.

 

I actually agree with RK and BS (Divine is not the only one who loves that...lol). I believe there is no useful purpose with a stats board that is not 100% fully listed with all data. Otherwise it's just a bunch of garbled data that is not of any use, nor is it any fun. I am in NO danger of ever being a leader in this sport as far as number of finds, hides, or even posts for that matter. I do not care if some pinhead lords it over others because he has a high find count.... it's of absolutely no consequence whatsoever. In fact, making such a big deal of how it could happen is giving more weight to the numbers than they deserve in the first place... they are of NO importance. No Importance. NO IMPORTANCE. They are simply a listing of the statistics already available to each and every person who registers to be a member of Geocaching.com

 

So, (big sigh) I guess I really don't have anything else to say about that except I'd like to see all stats, or no stats. A mealy mouthed version or a long list of *anonymous* entries is silly (you'll notice *I* did not stoop to the assinine word...lol). I think this whole issue is a tempest in a teapot but i understand some people are more sensitive to it than I. Anyone who wants to say anything about me because I have a bunch of virtual finds, or fewer traditional finds than they do, or any other cutsy comment is just showing themselves to be petty and unable to come up with a valid argument for their position, so why would I worry about them?

 

As my hero says: Bring it on!!! Let's Roll!

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Afghanistan was a battle. Iraq was a battle. The war goes on."

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quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

 

I wasen't on when the stat page was up, how many members were there then? Do you think that the number of members on now opposed to how many on then would effect the way people react to a stat page? Again I'm not against it just asking questions here.


 

Xitron - Dan's stats page went down a little over a month ago (I'm not sure if it wsa even that long but I guess it was). The number of geocachers is not significantly higher since then.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner


Never saw it, and someone else told me it was down alot longer then that. Can someone post when the stat page really went down? I never saw it, but then again I never looked lol.

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quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

Time to fire some shots. A leader board does cause a bit of elitist activity. While I haven't been on this forum very long I have had people say, with only # of caches you've found who are you to judge. I judge by what I see, but that desn't matter to the ones that lord their more finds over me. As for posts in the forum I have gotten the same response, one response was "another n00b heard from", so don't tell me that some people here do not take the stats as validation of their status. Others state I've been on since 2002 and cop the attitude of who are you to question me? I have be online for quite along time and I've seen the same in any and every forum I have been in, its human nature to compete with your peers, and it will happen here if a stat board is opened. I see nothing wrong with that as long as it is moderated, I know I sometimes cross the line and need a little yank by an admin to check myself so as long as it is moderated then lets have at it.


 

Xitron - with 2 clicks of my mouse I ALREADY know your find totals. If I wanted to hold it over your head I could do that now. A leaderboard wouldn't create that problem. It ALREADY exists.

 

The leaderboard shut down and the 'country club' attitude of some people has not gone away. There are still cliques and there will always be cliques, bc as you say it's human nature.

 

A leaderboard wouldn't change any of this. I don't see how it'd make it worse, it sure as heck hasn't gotten better since Dan closed his page.

 

Now the only way anybody who is TRUELY concerned about this can get around it is to not log your finds or for TPTB to implement a TRUE OPT-OUT that hides all personal data from everybody. I personally don't like the 2nd option, but I suppose it could be useful. This, however, has NOTHING to do with a leader board.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

quote:
Originally posted by southdeltan:

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

 

I wasen't on when the stat page was up, how many members were there then? Do you think that the number of members on now opposed to how many on then would effect the way people react to a stat page? Again I'm not against it just asking questions here.


 

Xitron - Dan's stats page went down a little over a month ago (I'm not sure if it wsa even that long but I guess it was). The number of geocachers is not significantly higher since then.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner


Never saw it, and someone else told me it was down alot longer then that. Can someone post when the stat page really went down? I never saw it, but then again I never looked lol.


 

43 days ago. It just seems like a lot longer than that. I'm sure a lot of people have joined since then, but not a HUGE percentage of total users.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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Xitron - with 2 clicks of my mouse I ALREADY know your find totals. If I wanted to hold it over your head I could do that now. A leaderboard wouldn't create that problem. It ALREADY exists.

 

The leaderboard shut down and the 'country club' attitude of some people has not gone away. There are still cliques and there will always be cliques, bc as you say it's human nature.

 

A leaderboard wouldn't change any of this. I don't see how it'd make it worse, it sure as heck hasn't gotten better since Dan closed his page.

 

Now the only way anybody who is TRUELY concerned about this can get around it is to not log your finds or for TPTB to implement a TRUE OPT-OUT that hides all personal data from everybody. I personally don't like the 2nd option, but I suppose it could be useful. This, however, has NOTHING to do with a leader board.

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

Like I said I never saw the leader board and have still been talked down to by the more "experienced players and cachers". Yes the cliques are still there and always will be, that is my point, some poeple take their stats as a status symbol. If a stats page is made, or remade, it will just give these country club types something else to point to without having to look up my stats with 2 mouse clicks. I am not against a stats page, but I can see problems coming from having one.

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Actually you had to be kind of dedicated to use the stats, there were usually so many people checking it that it was snail slow. You'd start with country then state then find your stats. It originally listed everyone world wide in one group, but since there were so many more caches in the US it was divided up by countries. Also sometimes on Sunday afternoons you couldn't even log on, thats how busy it was

 

All who look are not lost

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As far as self policing is concerned, there really is no point in creating a fake anonymous account. What's the fun in being on top if nobody knows who you are? People who are so driven by competition that they need to cheat are going to want to be the recognized "winner". Any anonymous find count that suddenly rises to the top in an unreasonable amount of time would be suspect.

 

I'm still waiting to hear why knowing who you are ranked against is important. It has already been stated stats are useful for "all sorts of other things". Lets hear some of these other uses and how hiding some usernames in the leaderboard would make them less usefull. I'd be willing to bet that if an opt out was available, very few (if any) of the competitive cachers would use it. The "favorites", people you love to watch, would all still be visible. What does it matter if a few new guys want to keep their count private?

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