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New Locationless Cache Type (Policies?)


Jeremy
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We've created a separate "Locationless Cache" type. If you have a locationless cache, please move it into the new section. I'm moving the type so it will no longer come up on search results pages by location.

 

We've also added coordinates to cache logs, so if you mark a "locationless" cache, enter in the coordinates for your log. I'll also be adding coordinates to images soon.

 

I know these aren't really caches (nor are virtual caches for that matter), so we're working on making a separate section for them so they don't take up space when searching for traditional caches.

 

To be honest, I don't know what policies we should create for these. Since I'm not exactly a big supporter of locationless caches (in their current form), perhaps others can offer suggestions. I suppose if it isn't in the cache area, things like documenting starbucks locations don't really hurt anyone. But a "spot me" locationless cache (where if you see xx person you can log it) seems a bit excessive.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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I went to the listings to do a check for hard caches in Louisiana (I can dream, eh? icon_wink.gif), and right there was the locationless link. I came over here, and here's the topic. Anyway, "Also search for [locationless caches]" is listed on its own page, as well. (Can't help but note that.)

 

Now, as for hybrid caches like Prime Choices... hmmm... They'd probably fit more naturally in the locationless section, but otherwise, I guess they'd just be unknowns. Hehe, that's the problem with hybridizing two caches into one listing. icon_wink.gif

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I went to the listings to do a check for hard caches in Louisiana (I can dream, eh? icon_wink.gif), and right there was the locationless link. I came over here, and here's the topic. Anyway, "Also search for [locationless caches]" is listed on its own page, as well. (Can't help but note that.)

 

Now, as for hybrid caches like Prime Choices... hmmm... They'd probably fit more naturally in the locationless section, but otherwise, I guess they'd just be unknowns. Hehe, that's the problem with hybridizing two caches into one listing. icon_wink.gif

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I agree these can be really interesting. You obviously are into trains. I've decided to go after a virtual covered bridge. In the process I've routed out 5 other covered bridges in a fifty mile area that aren't virtuals but would be interesting to hit to make it a really interesting tour. All the waypoints and routes are entered in my GPS. I've printed maps, topos, etc. SHould be interesting; plus I don't have to worry too much about ticks!

 

Alan

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My Colorado Fourteeners cache isn't really locationless. Rather, it has 54 specific locations, all in one state, with all coordinates given. It's really more of a "multiple-location" virtual cache. Should it be listed as "locationless" or not? Or, is there a better term to apply to the broad range of caches that includes both those caches where no coords are given , and those with multiple coords? How about calling them "Multi-Location" caches, to avoid confusion?

 

25021_1200.gif

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I visited your cache page and agree that you've put together a powerful cache search. The fact that you'll allow 54 finds if someone seeks all the peaks convinced me.

 

Also, the fact that you put warnings and provisos in your log is very responsible of you. Kudos!

 

While not what I think would be a locationless cache, it may qualify as a multi-site cache.

 

The thing is; Geocaching is growing and expanding exponentially. That is, as more people get involved, new ideas are presented. Others build upon those ideas and new concepts are born. New concepts which are quite valid!

 

While I'll probably never seek even one of your 54, I appreciate, and revel in, the fact that they're out there. Somewhere.

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This is in the page that describes the various "drum" icons, under "Virtual Cache"

quote:
Locationless Caches have been a recent addition. With no specific location, these really aren't caches. Usually it has to do with "if you see xx then log it and take a picture." In the future these will have their own section.


 

Thanks for allowing the hobby to evolve, Jeremy, even at the risk of letting it become something you don't necessarily personally like... (Eeek! awkward sentence, but I think you get my drift.)

 

Indeed, some people hate these locationless caches. Some people really get a kick out of them. Now, there is a compromise.

 

[This message was edited by MissJenn on April 25, 2002 at 07:00 AM.]

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I took a look at the list of locationless caches and on the whole I thought some real effort has been but into creatibg some unique caches. The NGS Benchmarks and the Tobbacco Pouch are great ideas. So long as the list does not get junked up with caches were you supply a picture of a dalmation or a red car. while it may be the cache placers favorite thing, it does not show any real effort. Unlike the Tobbacco Pouch where somone really knew something about the local regions history and its a great way to document and preserve a vanishing part of Americana

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Just last night I added a log for the NGS Benchmark Recovery Cache and noticed that it asked for the coords. That is pretty spiffy! Now the question is; If I got back and edit other 'locationless' caches that I've logged, can I add the coords? icon_cool.gif

 

And the answer is: Yes

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took the one less traveled by, ...

 

unclerojelio

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:05 AM.

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:06 AM.]

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Just last night I added a log for the NGS Benchmark Recovery Cache and noticed that it asked for the coords. That is pretty spiffy! Now the question is; If I got back and edit other 'locationless' caches that I've logged, can I add the coords? icon_cool.gif

 

And the answer is: Yes

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took the one less traveled by, ...

 

unclerojelio

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:05 AM.

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:06 AM.]

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If you place a travel bug in a 'locationless' cache does the bug log the original coords of the cache or does it log the coords that are entered? icon_razz.gif

 

[addendum]

I tried this out on the Yellow Jeep Fever Cache and discovered that it does indeed log the find in Arizona instead of here in Texas. I know this is getting silly, but may I suggest that since you are taking the coords as input, travel bugs placed in 'locationless' caches log the entered coords instead of the origianl coords. icon_cool.gif

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took the one less traveled by, ...

 

unclerojelio

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 06:58 AM.

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:06 AM.

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:07 AM.]

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If you place a travel bug in a 'locationless' cache does the bug log the original coords of the cache or does it log the coords that are entered? icon_razz.gif

 

[addendum]

I tried this out on the Yellow Jeep Fever Cache and discovered that it does indeed log the find in Arizona instead of here in Texas. I know this is getting silly, but may I suggest that since you are taking the coords as input, travel bugs placed in 'locationless' caches log the entered coords instead of the origianl coords. icon_cool.gif

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took the one less traveled by, ...

 

unclerojelio

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 06:58 AM.

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:06 AM.

 

[This message was edited by unclerojelio on April 25, 2002 at 07:07 AM.]

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First, kudos to Jeremy. Thank you for implementing a solution to the 'locationless' controversy that satisfies all parties.

 

I am confused about the comment regarding placing a travel bug in one of these caches. By definition, they are virtual. How do you place a bug in a virtual cache?

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quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

I am confused about the comment regarding placing a travel bug in one of these caches. By definition, they are virtual. How do you place a bug in a virtual cache?


 

I don't want to open up a can of (worms don't really cover it. Perhaps possibilities?), but one thought in the past was allow travel bugs to hop from person to person. Perhaps logging a travel bug with coordinates override the cache coordinates. Geocoding may even be another option so folks could leave their travel bug in a random non-cache (like a benchmark) and allow someone to pick it up from there.

 

As for locationless caches and their own type, I have some plans that will incorporate locationless caches. However, I have to remain in stealth mode on it. Also still working on the bulk download code which is top priority.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

I am confused about the comment regarding placing a travel bug in one of these caches. By definition, they are virtual. How do you place a bug in a virtual cache?


 

Some folks ( me included ) have created

Personal Travel Bugs. These are travel bugs that we keep with us instead of releasing them into the wild. It's kinda silly I know but you do get a cool little map of your geocaching travels. The idea is that you don't physically place the bug in a cache that you find but you place it electronically in the cache when you log it. Then you immediately log it back out into your possesion. The thing is that you can do the same for any cache, even if it is a virtual one. icon_cool.gif

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took the one less traveled by, ...

 

unclerojelio

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quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:

I am confused about the comment regarding placing a travel bug in one of these caches. By definition, they are virtual. How do you place a bug in a virtual cache?


 

Some folks ( me included ) have created

Personal Travel Bugs. These are travel bugs that we keep with us instead of releasing them into the wild. It's kinda silly I know but you do get a cool little map of your geocaching travels. The idea is that you don't physically place the bug in a cache that you find but you place it electronically in the cache when you log it. Then you immediately log it back out into your possesion. The thing is that you can do the same for any cache, even if it is a virtual one. icon_cool.gif

 

... Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--

I took the one less traveled by, ...

 

unclerojelio

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Hi!

 

I thought of a locationless cache, where you can claim a find if you found/hid one cache in every province of the Netherlands. Could also be any county in a state, every state in the US, every country in Europe, whatever.

 

Got a reply that it shouldn't be a cache... but this seems like a perfect example of a locationless cache to me... icon_confused.gif

 

--

Robert Elsinga =8-)

geocaching (at) elsinga.org

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Hi!

 

I thought of a locationless cache, where you can claim a find if you found/hid one cache in every province of the Netherlands. Could also be any county in a state, every state in the US, every country in Europe, whatever.

 

Got a reply that it shouldn't be a cache... but this seems like a perfect example of a locationless cache to me... icon_confused.gif

 

--

Robert Elsinga =8-)

geocaching (at) elsinga.org

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

We've created a separate "Locationless Cache" type. If you have a locationless cache, please move it into the new section. I'm moving the type so it will no longer come up on search results pages by location.

 

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location


 

Hmmmm... I just changed my

A Pair of Quintuplets (Multi-Location Virtual) cache into a locationless virtual, yet it still shows up on my search results by location.

 

25021_1200.gif

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As a side note of interest, no matter how many Found It posts you make on a particular cache, your 'count' will only increase by one per day.

 

For example, if you post 10 Found logs to a Mural locationless cache on a single day, your count will only go up by one (assuming you log them all as found on the same day).

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quote:
Originally posted by mark71mark:

As a side note of interest, no matter how many Found It posts you make on a particular cache, your 'count' will only increase by one per day.


 

Sorry to disagree, but I just tested on an archived cache of mine. I logged two test "Found It" entries identical except the text of the first said "Test#1" and the second was "Test#2". Same date, same cache.

 

My count increased from 74 to 76.

 

For the sake of integrity, I naturally deleted them after checking this.

 

As far as I can tell, the database makes no distinction between logging multiple times for the same cache on the same day.

 

Markwell

My Geocaching Page

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I had a fairly easy cache turned down today for being too easy. I'm not sure it's easier than the yellow jeep cache but I'm fine with it. The cache was called School Bus Cache and I guess that wouldn't have been very difficult.

 

I'm not complaining, just guess we'll have some wrinkles to iron out before we figure out what works with the locationless caches.

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

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I have been looking for a yellow jeep since I heard about the cache a couple of weeks ago out of curiosity. I will not log the cache when I see one but have been surprised that I have not seen more of them now that I have been looking for them. I pass a school bus every day coming home from work parked in a schools parking lot, and that just seems to not be a cache to me.

 

No one has suggested rules for locationless caches, so I will make a stab at it. I wish that a locationless cache could be where the coordinates are found on the internet and you provide a photo of the thing to prove you found it(like the benchmark cache) or verified by plugging the coordinates into MapQuest or TopoZone and seeing that the object is in fact there (like the covered bridge cache). That's just me, and those are the rules I have played by so far, but that is just me. Locationless caches have gone far beyond that now and it would appear too late to reel them in. I am waiting for the "Fire Hydrant Locationless Cache". icon_wink.gif My dog the puppymonster could log that one as a find!!

 

3512_200.jpg

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I have been looking for a yellow jeep since I heard about the cache a couple of weeks ago out of curiosity. I will not log the cache when I see one but have been surprised that I have not seen more of them now that I have been looking for them. I pass a school bus every day coming home from work parked in a schools parking lot, and that just seems to not be a cache to me.

 

No one has suggested rules for locationless caches, so I will make a stab at it. I wish that a locationless cache could be where the coordinates are found on the internet and you provide a photo of the thing to prove you found it(like the benchmark cache) or verified by plugging the coordinates into MapQuest or TopoZone and seeing that the object is in fact there (like the covered bridge cache). That's just me, and those are the rules I have played by so far, but that is just me. Locationless caches have gone far beyond that now and it would appear too late to reel them in. I am waiting for the "Fire Hydrant Locationless Cache". icon_wink.gif My dog the puppymonster could log that one as a find!!

 

3512_200.jpg

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I think locationless caches should be stationary objects, like the surveryor marker, or the natural arches, or the "highest point in the county/state"...

(color)(vehicle) caches really aren't even locationless geocaches...they're the sort of thing someone might have on a scavenger hunt list.

While the Oscar Meyer Weinermobile (17 of them, IIRC) and Hershey Kiss-mobile (2 of them) are interesting ideas, I don't think they're appropriate for geocaches, locationless or not. Such locationless caches would be better off as "Wooden covered bridge in your state" or maybe even "home of musician/writer/artist that is now a national historic monument type place" Like Thomas Woolfe's home or something, and for a bonus, require that the person read/listen to/whatever a work by aforementioned person, and give a one paragraph summary about what they liked/disliked about said work.

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To the best of my knowledge, almost anything can be submitted as a locationless cache. Jeremy has indicated he was considering establishing guidelines & I think they are sorely needed. I think most of them arw kinda cool, mainly because there is a bit of a competitive natyure in the fact that most are labeled as "No XYZ may be used more then once" Heavy metal is a perfect example. FInd a warship not in service. The Ling is less then a mile away, but someone else logged it in already, so now I'll have to do my homework to find another. Can this type of cache be abused? Sure it can. What I dislike is seeing similar caches approved, then seeing mine get rejected. It kinda sucks to go the trouble of creating something only to be denied. And rather rudely too, but I won't get into that. Bottom line: establishing guidelines will help reduce the types of caches that are the fodder for the Anti-LC camp, and keep it from getting too silly.

 

My proposals:

1) No more then 1 log per user per cache

2) Submitter of the cache must provide same documentation as they require of others (proving they themselves have found whatever it is we're supposed to find

3) Item must be unique or have some importance. Finding a school bus doesn't cut it.

 

I'm sure there should be more guidelines but I cant think of any. I only really care about #2 personall

 

WUHOO TEAMGWHO!

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I suppose I'm the guilty party for starting all this with my Cache of Palindromes cache http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=8235 , so maybe I can be of some help. Creativity is very important to the vitality of Geocaching. But we must also stay focused on what it is we are doing. When I have put caches together there are certain elements I try to focus on. Creativity, WOW!locations, education, innovation. But they must still fit within parameters. Those parameters are:

 

The process: Coordinates > GPS > The find. NOT The find> GPS> Coordinates. (The latter is not Geocaching.)

 

The FIND can be virtual or physical or even a set of coordinates, but it must follow the process and must be PHYSICALLY visited, and must be visited AFTER the cache is posted.The Game is not on till the cache is posted.

 

Only one find per cache element.

 

You must meet the cache placers requirement to log a find.

 

Anything outside of these parameters devalues (and have devalued) the numbers that we have so proudly racked up, and the sport itself. Frankly, I have evolved with these changes in the sport to where I now focus on interesting and challenging caches and really don't care about the numbers any longer. So, in a backwards sort of way, the existance of the odd locationless cache has helped me focus on what is really of value to me. And that is the adventure and the challenge of it all.

 

2573_200.jpg

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I empathize with Eraseek in that the number of caches found has dropped in significance in my mind as well. I now derive much more pleasure out of a great hike and/or a challenging hunt then in adding another figurative scalp to my belt.

 

And that's they way it should be - for me. For others maybe the numbers are the goal, but that's fine.

 

I unfortunately also agree with Eraseek that the lame caches - be they traditional, virtual, or locationless - devalue the great efforts some have made in hiding and finding caches. Unfortunatly they also devalue our sport as a whole. I wouldn't want to take a newspaper columnist or TV reporter on some of the hunts that have been posted and expect our sport to be taken seriously. We can pick on the locationless caches, but there are also the baggy-tossed-in-the-ditch-beside-the-parking-lot type of caches that don't add much to the credibility of the sport.

~erik~

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwho:

To the best of my knowledge, almost anything can be submitted as a locationless cache!


 

Well Jeremy did turn down my school bus cache and he's turned down others. I'm a bit put off by the whiners here. Not approving the cache I submitted makes sense to me. And hey, if you hate locationless caches, just stay away from them. What's the problem?

 

This is a really fun activity but some of you guys would complain if I gave you a wrinkled 100 dollar bill I think.

 

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

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By the way, the NGS marker recovery cache was a kick! I'm still doing those on my own as a side activity and am becoming part of the history of the marker by logging their current condition on the NGS site. This is a fine example of how you can have a cache without a SET location and still follow the common sense rules of using your GPSR to find a coordinate. Coordinates first...then the find. Achieving those coordinates, and the cache placers requirements, are the goal.

 

2573_200.jpg

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Or rather four caches (Depots: GC4A5A, Wild things*: GC5164, American Flags: GC5192, and Watertowers: GC5282) with one picture!

 

*Yep, there really is a bird in there! icon_wink.gif

 

If I'd have waited long enough, I'm sure I could've gotten a yellow Jeep in the shot, too. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

I have to admit that I've enjoyed some of the well thought out and creative Locationless caches...but it seems to be getting out of hand. When it's too easy, it takes the fun out of it.

 

-------

"I may be slow, but at least I'm sweet!" 196939_800.jpg

 

[This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on May 13, 2002 at 10:32 PM.]

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Or rather four caches (Depots: GC4A5A, Wild things*: GC5164, American Flags: GC5192, and Watertowers: GC5282) with one picture!

 

*Yep, there really is a bird in there! icon_wink.gif

 

If I'd have waited long enough, I'm sure I could've gotten a yellow Jeep in the shot, too. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

I have to admit that I've enjoyed some of the well thought out and creative Locationless caches...but it seems to be getting out of hand. When it's too easy, it takes the fun out of it.

 

-------

"I may be slow, but at least I'm sweet!" 196939_800.jpg

 

[This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on May 13, 2002 at 10:32 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by EraSeek:

By the way, the NGS marker recovery cache was a kick! I'm still doing those on my own as a side activity and am becoming part of the history of the marker by logging their current condition on the NGS site. This is a fine example of how you can have a cache without a SET location and still follow the common sense rules of using your GPSR to find a coordinate. Coordinates first...then the find. Achieving those coordinates, and the cache placers requirements, are the goal.


 

I thought the coords for these things are posted on a web-based database. Dosen't that make this a "set" cache? Many of the ones near me even have directions on the database similar to a regular cache.

 

Smoochnme

 

goldfish.gif

"Only when the last tree is cut,

and the last stream is polluted,

and the last fish is caught,

will we realize that you can't eat the money"

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quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Or rather four caches (Depots: GC4A5A, Wild things*: GC5164, American Flags: GC5192, and Watertowers: GC5282) with one http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/log/337751_200.jpg!

 

*Yep, there really is a http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/log/337751_300.jpg in there! icon_wink.gif

 

If I'd have waited long enough, I'm sure I could've gotten a yellow Jeep in the shot, too. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

I have to admit that I've enjoyed some of the well thought out and creative Locationless caches...but it seems to be getting out of hand. When it's too easy, it takes the fun out of it.


 

They are still fun and worth keeping around if your into numbers. Yesterday I also could of bagged four with one picture. An old church with a corner stone which said "For God and Country" with a squirrel digging around near the corner stone. And there was a yellow jeep parked on the curb. I don't own a digital camera so I couldn't take a picture to be posted.

 

If it had been last month, I could have waited for a red truck or red van and got 5 or 6! The last two have since been removed but were logged by some.

 

Smoochnme

 

goldfish.gif

"Only when the last tree is cut,

and the last stream is polluted,

and the last fish is caught,

will we realize that you can't eat the money"

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quote:
Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup:

Or rather four caches (Depots: GC4A5A, Wild things*: GC5164, American Flags: GC5192, and Watertowers: GC5282) with one http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/log/337751_200.jpg!

 

*Yep, there really is a http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/log/337751_300.jpg in there! icon_wink.gif

 

If I'd have waited long enough, I'm sure I could've gotten a yellow Jeep in the shot, too. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

I have to admit that I've enjoyed some of the well thought out and creative Locationless caches...but it seems to be getting out of hand. When it's too easy, it takes the fun out of it.


 

They are still fun and worth keeping around if your into numbers. Yesterday I also could of bagged four with one picture. An old church with a corner stone which said "For God and Country" with a squirrel digging around near the corner stone. And there was a yellow jeep parked on the curb. I don't own a digital camera so I couldn't take a picture to be posted.

 

If it had been last month, I could have waited for a red truck or red van and got 5 or 6! The last two have since been removed but were logged by some.

 

Smoochnme

 

goldfish.gif

"Only when the last tree is cut,

and the last stream is polluted,

and the last fish is caught,

will we realize that you can't eat the money"

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One of the side issues expressed concerning virtual caches is the concept of "score". Given we Americans are a competitive lot and it makes a game a game, virtuals MUST be played to stay in the game. I am happy to see that truly frivolous ones are deep sixed. Now on to a further consideration on scoring finds: How does the geocaching community feel about the same score for an easy traditional vs a multi-cache that takes days of research and involves more than 5 or six multi-cache waypoints? If you have to find 5 multi-caches to log a find, shouldn't that add 5 to your find count?

Just looking for opinions. We're having too much fun to get bogged down with politics or technicalities! ...Gil&Ani Colorado Springs, CO

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We are also confused about how locationless caches fit in with geocaching, because

 

(a) Often there is no hunt. We did one leaning out of our living room window. We've done others without even turning on our GPS!

 

(:smile: The locations are sometimes so nondescript that there is no feeling of achievement. In fact, there are locationless caches where the hider hasn't even bothered to go to the coodinates they've posted or indeed been to any location satisfying their own requirements!

 

What's next? Post a photo of your GPS in front of a tree?

 

As other people have said, that kind of cache devalues the effort that people have put into hiding and finding physical caches. We put a lot of work into hiding caches (specially machined containers, thanks Dave!, hiring helicopters) and finding caches (hiring boats, virtually destroying our cachemobile, torturing our mind withsecret codes, getting thrown our of McDonald's, hotels, and generally killing ourselves so it would be sad to see that merged in with caches where all you need to do is post a photo of a flag!

 

We liked Gwho's proposals above, but thought that the definition of uniqueness/importance would be up for constant debate.

 

Our proposal is to allow locationless caches to be logged only once. This would convert the locationless caches from a "Hey, I'd better keep my GPS and camera with me just in case I see a yellow jeep running over a wombat" into a race to see who can get to a suitable location first, which would add a time dimension to the game. There is also a nice symmetry about it: one location -> multiple logs, multiple locations -> one log.

 

Alternatively, to satisfy everyone, maybe we should just split the logs and counts into two so we can differentiate between the two types of caches.

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