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Child Unfriendly?


Xitron
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Just thought I post a note to Alpine and granitehaed here. Both removed a child unfriendly small knife keychain from a cache and Granite posted that I should remember that many families travel with children. My first thought is not all cachers are children and some may want to trade a little higher then a McDonalds toy, stickers, or something you may find in a yard sale. My second thought is if the parents can manage to get these children to all the caches safe and sound they are probably responisable enough to handle any child unsafe item that may in a cache, and as these were in box's and closed do not represent a threat. Recently I went to the store and bought what some would consider child friendly toys to leave at various caches, a collectors set of marbles is one of them, should I consider the fact that smaller children can swallow and choke on them and therefore not leave them. I trust the parents of our little cachers to keep them from harm shouldn't you?

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well when you think about it cachers aren't the only ones that find caches. Those non geocaching people out there may not be very responsible. If the police found it they could interpret it the wrong way and then there's alot of explaining to do.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

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It's on this page: http://www.geocaching.com/faq.asp

 

Not that I agree with it, though. I think small pocket-knives or what comes in a multi-tool should be OK, but TPTB allow no consideration for the size. To them a knife-is-a-knife-is-a-knife, and there is zero tolerance.

 

Apparently this policy was put into effect because some land manager was afraid prison help (apparently picking up litter or clearing brush) would accidentally find a knife and do something bad with it.

 

George

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If a Knife of any size is not acceptable I think it should be placed into the main geocach page where it states "Please! No alcohol, tobacco, firearms, prescription or illicit drugs. Let's keep this safe and legal." and not in the FAQ page that I didn't read. As all the feedback has been negative I will no longer place any type of knife in a cache no matter how small. Now what do I do with the 3 all in one tools I just bought last week?

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Good idea about x-mas, got 3 people taken care of lol.

Now to my second point, why do so many people leave trash in the cache? I saw on log that stated "took the geocoin, the gold dollor and left stickers" What is that about if you take something shouldn't what you place be of equal value?

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quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

Good idea about x-mas, got 3 people taken care of lol.

Now to my second point, why do so many people leave trash in the cache? I saw on log that stated "took the geocoin, the gold dollor and left stickers" What is that about if you take something shouldn't what you place be of equal value?


 

Depends on the actual situation.

 

Many geocoins are like travel bugs, so a trade isn't required. It just moves to another cache.

 

A golden dollar is worth about a dollar.

 

Many stickers, on the other hand, cost far more than a dollar. It depends on the kind of sticker of course, but little sheets of stickers that little kids like run about $2 at my local grocery store.

 

So, it could be a decent trade. Again, it depends on the specifics. Since you're only going by a log entry, it's hard to say what the deal was.

 

George

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LOL not at all, I really don't care whats in the cache I'm in it for the hike and the views and the new places I will see. I just noticed that there are alot of uneven trades going on, people trading good things for junk etc. If I want something I buy it so its not about the prizes, its about McDonald rejects being traded for something someone spent time and thought on to put in a cache. Are you telling me you haven't seen the same?

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quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

It's on this page: http://www.geocaching.com/faq.asp

 

Not that I agree with it, though. I think small pocket-knives or what comes in a multi-tool should be OK, but TPTB allow no consideration for the size. To them a knife-is-a-knife-is-a-knife, and there is zero tolerance.


 

I agree, it's a silly rule.

 

Wonder if the whiner that reported the 1" knife is the same type that trades "Good Stuff" for postcards, crayons, food or broken McToyz. icon_rolleyes.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by M15a4spr:

I agree, it's a silly rule.

 

Wonder if the whiner that reported the 1" knife is the same type that trades "Good Stuff" for postcards, crayons, food or broken McToyz. icon_rolleyes.gif


Silly rule or not, there have been several incidents where a knife in a cache has caused geocaching to be seen in a negative light by land managers and police. Most parks have laws against weapons of any type, and most states define a knife of any size as a weapon. In one case, an entire county has banned caches in it's parks because of a knife found in a cache. With all the other things one can put in a cache, why risk casting a negative light on geocaching by leaving something the police, land managers, and media may consider dangerous or illegal?

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A price tag is one thing but leaving trash is another.+

quote:
Originally posted by Lone Duck:

I agree with keeping knives out of caches. I don't agree with trade being considered "fair" by putting a price tag or dollar value on the item.

 

_That Quack Cacher:_

_Lone Duck_

 

_When you don't know where you're going, every road will take you there._


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Oops, my first post might have been picked up or not, I am not sure, but I will start again.

 

I will be a seagull and start dropping, but I am registered, so if I offend anybody, please let me know.

 

My dad is the worst person to buy for X-mas. Once he bought what I had bought him 1 week before X-mas. Had to return the item and think pretty quickly. I usually spend about 3 to 6 months on him.

 

The point of buying gifts is to provide a meaningful gift for the receipant. I try and think of the person receiving the gift and if they will use/enjoy the gift. When I convince the better half of what I am trying to do, I will be along the same philosophy. Where does the cached lie, what does it signify and what is meaningful to possible non-local finders? I think that is a worth while goal to have.

 

I have noticed several caches that I am geographically familiar with and would be interested in finding and leaving some sort of local knowledge or geographic information behind. My ideas include, but are not limited to, a copy of an assessor map showing the property lines and the deeds conveying the property or a history of the property for a period of time; a written knowledge of the place that may not be readily available to the average citizen for example: the snow fall is greater up here than anyplace else in this school district or that the air show can be viewed for free from this location. Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. I think that the main point of geocaching is to learn something new when one visits.

 

If someone is reading this and is in the Yamhill County area searching for a cache, please feel free to contact me. I have some knowledge of the are and am willing to learn more.

 

As my future wife says “The more you know, the more you grow.”

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quote:
...Apparently this policy was put into effect because some land manager was afraid prison help (apparently picking up litter or clearing brush) would accidentally find a knife and do something bad with it...

 

If thats true that's just funny. Those same people can find tire irons, chains, rebar and other things that can do more harm faster on the edge of the road. If they don't "Trust" the prisoners then why are they picking up trash to begin with? Hell I work around prisoners they seem to trust them to drive our cars and that can do more damage than a pocket knife.

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I will drop a lame Happy Meal™ Toy, if it is valuable in the sense that is serves to educate the general person at the cache.

 

I may be overly optimistic about placing useful information in a cache, but I will try and do so. I think that the “sport” is for knowledge gain, not just stuff. Look at the few caches that are posted to zip code 97132 and 97128 to figure out why.

 

I will give you a hint as to one. They mention a gun range nearby, it is one of 4 that are in the county. The winery that it is near is on the same road and to get to the location, one must drive past one of the first vineyards, not wineries, in Yamhill County. Speaking of which, the county is named after the local Native American tribe that used to live in the geographic area. The town/city is named after a city in Scotland. The “cache” name Designated Driver. The area is where I grew up and have spent some time learning. Please enjoy our scenery, but please let someone else do the driving. One more thought one the location, find the cemetery at the top of the hill, take a camera, the view is something that is worth taking.

 

OK, a piece of trivia for Yamhill County, one town is home to one of the local US Government’s “Indian” treaty makers. It has 2 subdivisions named after this individual and is a local football powerhouse. You can also eat at their “house”.

 

I believe that caching can enlighten our youth to not only our past, but our future. Please keep up the good work.

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quote:
Originally posted by NJ Admin:

Silly rule or not, there have been several incidents where a knife in a cache has caused geocaching to be seen in a negative light by land managers and police.


Not tryin to flame or fight, but...

 

Some Cops have and will continue to take a dim view of view of any geo cahchin' there goes argument 1.

 

If the park yer placin a cache in has a rule against blades, it only makes sense not to leave one there, but blanket statements(rules) tend to be ummm less than productive.

 

Take the example that started this. Some "mom type" tells him knives are no no's because kids cache. The parents are standing right there for pete's sake! That is unless she's letting her 7 yr old grab the GPS and car keys to head off into the woods. icon_wink.gif

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Silly rule or not, there have been several incidents where a knife in a cache has caused geocaching to be seen in a negative light by land managers and police. Most parks have laws against weapons of any type, and most states define a knife of any size as a weapon. In one case, an entire county has banned caches in it's parks because of a knife found in a cache. With all the other things one can put in a cache, why risk casting a negative light on geocaching by leaving something the police, land managers, and media may consider dangerous or illegal?

 

can you post those stories for me to read?

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quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

can you post those stories for me to read?


here is one:

quote:
Recently, a geocache was placed on park property and was discovered by our Park Ranger. Upon reading the log book, the staff of the Licking Park District discovered that the original owner placed a weapon inside the cache. It was placed near a well used trail and picnicking area. Had this cache been found by a school group or child, there could have been serious implications. Again, more Licking Park District Rules and Regulations were violated including: Section 3.2 Improper Transportation of A Dangerous Weapon in a Motor Vehicle and 3.3 Carrying Dangerous weapons which states:

"No person, except law enforcement officers, shall have or carry any knives, daggers or other edged weapons, metal knuckles, slingshots, blow guns or other dangerous weapons on or about his or her person while in the parks."

While we encourage visitors to hike our trails and enjoy our facilities, former geocachers violated several of our rules and regulations, thus our decision to outlaw geocaching on any Licking Park District property. We are a small organization and do not have the means to oversee the safety of your activity unlike many of the park districts that you have been able to work per our rules and regulations, any person or organization who violates them could be fined up to $1,000.


Again, this isnt some lame excuse or power trip the geocaching.com staff is on. Stuff like this is a very real problem we have to deal with. I used to leave knives in caches myself, and I still have a few in stock, but if the choices are leave a knife in a cache and run the risk of getting caches in my area banned, or leave something else I bought at the dollar store that the land managers approve of, I'm going to try to make the land managers (who have the final say on our activity) happy. Simple enough, isn't it?

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quote:
Again, this isnt some lame excuse or power trip the geocaching.com staff is on. Stuff like this is a very real problem we have to deal with. I used to leave knives in caches myself, and I still have a few in stock, but if the choices are leave a knife in a cache and run the risk of getting caches in my area banned, or leave something else I bought at the dollar store that the land managers approve of, I'm going to try to make the land managers (who have the final say on our activity) happy. Simple enough, isn't it?

 

Yeah, simple enough. Why create a situation that could get geocaching in trouble, whether by geocaching.com getting sued or caches in any given area being banned? Do I think little knives are actually dangerous? No, but I do think that it is better to leave uncontroversial items.

 

pokeanim3.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by NJ Admin:

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:

can you post those stories for me to read?


http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=3316058331&m=96960935

quote:
Recently, a geocache was placed on park property and was discovered by our Park Ranger. Upon reading the log book, the staff of the Licking Park District discovered that the original owner placed a weapon inside the cache. It was placed near a well used trail and picnicking area. Had this cache been found by a school group or child, there could have been serious implications. Again, more Licking Park District Rules and Regulations were violated including: Section 3.2 Improper Transportation of A Dangerous Weapon in a Motor Vehicle and 3.3 Carrying Dangerous weapons which states:

"No person, except law enforcement officers, shall have or carry any knives, daggers or other edged weapons, metal knuckles, slingshots, blow guns or other dangerous weapons on or about his or her person while in the parks."

While we encourage visitors to hike our trails and enjoy our facilities, former geocachers violated several of our rules and regulations, thus our decision to outlaw geocaching on any Licking Park District property. We are a small organization and do not have the means to oversee the safety of your activity unlike many of the park districts that you have been able to work per our rules and regulations, any person or organization who violates them could be fined up to $1,000.


Again, this isnt some lame excuse or power trip the geocaching.com staff is on. Stuff like this is a very real problem we have to deal with. I used to leave knives in caches myself, and I still have a few in stock, but if the choices are leave a knife in a cache and run the risk of getting caches in my area banned, or leave something else I bought at the dollar store that the land managers approve of, I'm going to try to make the land managers (who have the final say on our activity) happy. Simple enough, isn't it?


 

Sounds to me like an excellent park to stay away from.

 

Looks like you can't even leave your knife in the car.

 

What are you supposed to do, flag down a homeless person or hitchhiker along th road and give him $5 to hold it for you while you visit the park?

 

Sure bet it's hard to get a fire going inb their campground- nothing to shave kindling. Fo that matter, nothing with which to open the package of firewood they sell you for $20.

 

I'm sure glad i don't live in a liberal state where everything I do is too dangerous for me and my BIG BROTHER has to slap my hands to keep me from hurting myself.

 

New Jersey is WAY TOO CLOSE to NY.

 

Knives don't offend people everywhere, just in those places where the predominate political belief is that adults are not big enough to take care of themselves and need their friendly GOVERNMENT to watch over them all the time.

 

A blanket rule regarding knives is ridiculous.

 

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

quote:
...Apparently this policy was put into effect because some land manager was afraid prison help (apparently picking up litter or clearing brush) would accidentally find a knife and do something bad with it...

 

If thats true that's just funny. Those same people can find tire irons, chains, rebar and other things that can do more harm faster on the edge of the road. If they don't "Trust" the prisoners then why are they picking up trash to begin with? Hell I work around prisoners they seem to trust them to drive our cars and that can do more damage than a pocket knife.


 

With a choice between a 1 inch knife and a fist sized rock, I think I would choose a rock.

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quote:
Originally posted by ChurchCampDave:

 

New Jersey is WAY TOO CLOSE to NY.

 

Knives don't offend people everywhere, just in those places where the predominate political belief is that adults are not big enough to take care of themselves and need their friendly GOVERNMENT to watch over them all the time.

 

A blanket rule regarding knives is ridiculous.

 

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave


That quoted knife incident did not take place in NJ or NJ. It happened in Ohio, which is pretty rural by NJ standards. Not some big city. The problem isn't just in the city, it's worldwide. Like Carleen said; do I personally think a pocket knife, like the one my dad gave me when I was 10, is a major problem in caches? No. But I understand there is a percentage of the population that does. I also understand that some of that percentage is in the position to make laws which govern caching. Why give them them knives in caches when we can give them things like CITO instead?

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quote:
quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

(snip) No, but I do think that it is better to leave uncontroversial items.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name one.


 

LOL! icon_smile.gif

 

P.S. I am assuming sarcasm on your part (so hard to tell on internet posts)! If so, my reply was heartfelt laughter. If not, it was mockery! icon_smile.gif

 

pokeanim3.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by ChurchCampDave:

Sounds to me like an excellent park to stay away from.

.

.

.

 


 

I haven't run into power-tripping degenerates like those who made those laws, but I expect to in the future with the spread of the police state. Worst thing we can do is to roll over for the sake of expediency.

 

Don't be fooled into thinking this is for your own good - government only sees its citizens as slaves. That is why THIS government was set out as subservient to the citizens with citizens retaining the power to take back the power (2nd Amendment). This is ALSO why government, on all levels, by nature becomes jealous of citizens who are armed. What you see in this park, IMO, is just the manifestation of this.

 

end mini-rant.

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quote:
But I understand there is a percentage of the population that does. I also understand that some of that percentage is in the position to make laws which govern caching. Why give them them knives in caches when we can give them things like CITO instead?

 

I guess I am repeating myself (redundant as always), but yeah, exactly!

 

pokeanim3.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by NJ Admin:

That quoted knife incident did not take place in NJ or NJ. It happened in Ohio, which is pretty rural by NJ standards. Not some big city. The problem isn't just in the city, it's worldwide. Like Carleen said; do I personally think a pocket knife, like the one my dad gave me when I was 10, is a major problem in caches? No. But I understand there is a percentage of the population that does. I also understand that some of that percentage is in the position to make laws which govern caching. Why give them them knives in caches when we can give them things like CITO instead?


 

You keep asking "why." I will tell you why. Because the combination of 1) retreating behind "no weapons" while 2) allowing OTHERS to define what a weapon is is simply a weak position that can lead to the end of the activity in question. What next? A yo-yo is a weapon? It can be swung and strike someone. The string could be used to choke someone.... I guess your answer will be, again, "why not just give up....again." Once you start retreating, at least tell me where you are willing to STOP retreating or do you ever?

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We've found a knife in a cache and my son removed it so no other child would be harmed by it....lol

 

Seriously though, along that same list of weapons and drugs...what about matches and lighters? We noticed that there were some matches in a cache today. I think that 2 box of matches could cause a lot more harm than a small knife. Especially if found by some kids playing in the woods.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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As a mom of three, I NEVER let my kids open the Cache first. That is for me or my husband to do. And I am not worried about knives, but more like bugs and snakes. The way we work it, is the kids and us find, we open, they choose what to take and we choose what to leave. We log it and we return it as original.

 

As a leatherman lover ( the multi tool) not the Saturday night live skit, I love multi tools. My dad who used to work for airport security told me how many they confiscated and tossed daily...

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quote:
Originally posted by NJ Admin:

quote:
Originally posted by ChurchCampDave:

 

New Jersey is WAY TOO CLOSE to NY.

 

Knives don't offend people everywhere, just in those places where the predominate political belief is that adults are not big enough to take care of themselves and need their friendly GOVERNMENT to watch over them all the time.

 

A blanket rule regarding knives is ridiculous.

 

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave


That quoted knife incident did not take place in NJ or NJ. It happened in Ohio, which is pretty rural by NJ standards. Not some big city. The problem isn't just in the city, it's worldwide. Like Carleen said; do I personally think a pocket knife, like the one my dad gave me when I was 10, is a major problem in caches? No. But I understand there is a percentage of the population that does. I also understand that some of that percentage is in the position to make laws which govern caching. Why give them them knives in caches when we can give them things like CITO instead?


 

Ohio's not much different politicallly from NY NJ. It is a shame great states like IN and KY have to border liberal states like OH and IL. makes one just want to stay home.

 

Anyway, from looking at the other thread, it looks like they trumped up the issue in the first place. It seems the evil knife wasn't even in the cache but was just mentioned in the log. A poster on the other thread said the trail the cachers allegedly cut has been there over 15 years (a long time before the GPS was invented).

 

I see on the last post they are thinking of allowing a CITO. Maybe there is hope for them, but I remain skeptical.

 

With their definitions of 'weapon' and 'destroying nature', I doubt there is any hope for them to ever be reasonable. They simply want to show their 'power' by outlawing an activity that is much less harmful than other activities and events they support.

 

It is bigotry, plain and simple.

 

I wonder how they manage to have their civil war reenactments? Last i heard the war was fought with rifles, cannon, and bayonets (I think bayonets qualify as knives).

 

Typical... 2 faced hypocritical power hungry lord it over you liberals!

 

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

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I find the accusatory tone that this is some kind of liberal problem deeply offensive.

 

A real liberal would believe it should be the right of the people to choose, or choose not, to bear arms, and would object to this sort of foolish park policy.

 

And I agree with SamLowrey about its foolishness. Practically anything can be defined as a weapon... a yo-yo could, I imagine, also make a fine garotte. Anything glass can be shattered and used as a blade. Anything hard can be used as a bludgeon. A marine corps drill sargeant once explained to me how to kill someone with a newspaper. The state I live in is so foolish about this that if you kick someone while wearing shoes you are charged with "assault with a deadly weapon" but if you kick them barefoot it's simply "assault." It's moronic, but true.

 

So while I will choose to refrain from placing knives or food or matches in caches, I do recognize the laws and policies behind this no-knives rule are part of the dumbing-down of human culture and the least-common-denominator kiddie-proofing of the world. For these reasons, I find this rule objectionable.

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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Farrell:

 

And I agree with SamLowrey about its foolishness. Practically anything can be defined as a weapon... a yo-yo could, I imagine, also make a fine garotte.


insert yo-yo trivia here.

 

The first known usages of a Yo-Yo are as a weapon. A repeter if you will. Same idea as the boomarang. it would come back thus conserving ammo. If memory serves it was normaly used horisontaly straight out. But some tribes had figured out how to hid in a tree and strike victims passing below.

 

Pat Patterson

Garmin 12XL

82CJ7 & 79F250

Herd of Turtles 4x4 club

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That Licking Park rule against weapons makes for a good arguement against carrying a walking stick! Also, that 4D cell Maglite I carry sometimes--yikes! I guess carrying a machete is a captial offense.

 

Can you say "Nanny State?"

 

I get a funny picture of bright-eyed young idealist types walking the trails every morning looking for club-sized logs and hefty rocks that could be used as weapons.

 

I also got a kick out of the way they described the area as recovering farm land so you have to watch out for the fragile plants! Hello! The farmland had at one time been razed to plant crops!

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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You know those nail clipper can cause some real injury when pinching the skin. I bet you could rip a good chunk of flesh off with one of those things. What if a child would find one?

 

And the finger tooth brushes... What if a child would find a dirty one in a cache and use it, swallow a lot of toothpaste and get sick...

 

Maybe we can ban those too. I hate finding them anyway.

 

And let's not forget about magnifying glass. I heard that you can use them to start a fire on a sunny day.

 

Everyone stay safe and be careful not to choke on any McToys (make sure they are all 3yrs and up please). icon_biggrin.gif

 

Paw%20Print.jpg

 

[This message was edited by SearchRescueDog on September 01, 2003 at 07:49 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by SearchRescueDog on September 01, 2003 at 07:56 AM.]

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The website does state no knives. The page that states it is plainly available and suggested for reading, as well there are many threads on the message board that happen frequently of people posting links to the faq's, guidelines and etc. I understand that many people may not read the forums, but the info is available, allbeit in different areas. I would say it is a little confusing coming in on the website and trying to find the info. As there are the guidelines, faqs and etc, that some of the info is redundantm but some of it is completely different. Combining into one area would be nice. Myself, when I have a question as to a rule or "guideline" I have to try and remember where I saw it on the site.

 

As far as the argument of whats in a cache, I will say this. I am a father (12yr old son/2 yr old daughter). My initial concerns on finding a cache is removing. Like from hollow logs, unders logs, admist rocks and etc. I have concern of snakes, animals, and insects being in there and possibly biting them, as I have concern of myself getting bitten as well. I've tought my 12 yr old on how to check first to be safe and how to carefully remove something. The same goes with opening too. We've found spiders and other insects inside of caches. So there is some concern on even opening them. A parent is going to have to take the responsibility of their own child. If they want to let the kid go and grab a cache and open it, then that's their responsibility. As far as what is inside of them, again that is the responsibilty of the parent to censor their kid. But, then I think there would be some things that might not be put in caches. The reason being non cachers finding them. Many kids will go into the woods nearby their homes or schools and play. That's a fact of life. And those kids may find the cache. This is where my concern sets in. What happens when one of them finds something that can cause serious injury and/or destruction? Lets use the 1" knife thing. It can slice, dice and do all the other things that a blade can. Not that a kid would do it intentionally, but it can happen. Of course they can do that with other things as well. Accountability is the name of the game. It's one thing if a kid said I found it on the side of the road or in the woods laying on the ground. It's something else when a kid says they found in this ammo box or tupperware container in the woods that has "geocaching.com" and points towards a user that is responsible for it. Same as with matches in my opinion. We found a cache with a couple books of matches in them. A non geocacher kid could find those and start a fire. We did a cache last week and noticed a small pile of sticks that had been lit on fire. Either some kids were playing around or someone was planning on staying there for a while.

 

I think part of it depends on the location of the cache as well. If I were in the backcountry miles away from civilization, then I would see no problem, as it would be less likely that a non geocacher would find the cache and less likely of kids running into playing. Those items, knives' and matches would come in handy if you get lost.

 

Someone mentioned about prisoners and finding hte stash. Yeah they could as someone else stated they could find something else along the road as well. As a former correctional officer I can tell you that is a concern and is why that they usually only let those on trustee status do that type of work. But, it can happen. As I related up above, it's one thing f it's laying on the ground, but when it's in something labeled and could reference to liability. I wouldn't want to have to answer as to why someone got stabbed or cut, or why something burned down because I irresponsibly left something that anyone could get.

 

Brian

 

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

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quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

....I wouldn't want to have to answer as to why someone got stabbed or cut, or why something burned down because I irresponsibly left something that anyone could get.

_


 

Do you want to go to that conclusion, because if you do, we may as well just give up this activity. icon_frown.gif

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