Geo-Court

[Zuckerruebensirup]

quote:

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Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

I'm thinking maybe they gathered up all those little bits of paper that were fluttering around after they detonated the thing so maybe they could find the person behind it.

---

 

Ah, a GeoPuzzle.

[Zuckerruebensirup]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

I'm thinking maybe they gathered up all those little bits of paper that were fluttering around after they detonated the thing so maybe they could find the person behind it.

---

 

Ah, a GeoPuzzle.

[+sbell111]

Fuzzy is correct.

 

The method of 'blowing up' suspicious packages varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In some locations, items are merely blasted with a high powered air cannon. This is enough of a blast to explode any unstable explosives and still allow inspection of the contents if no explosives were enclosed.

[RedShoesGirl]

 

Not to be a nitpicker, but i think the cache in question was in California.

 

No no, pick that nit - duh me - read that state wrong. Privacy issue remains the same though - I'll have to do a search on the Caifornia state rail trespass laws.

 

[RedShoesGirl]

 

What are the stats?

 

 

Google is a nice search engine for you to use in looking up that info just like I did, if you are interested.

 

[Rocknroll]

In reguards to the private proberty. A mall has private property. From around the building to the inside of it including the walkway. A Mall hhhmmmmmmmmmm maybe a good spot for a micro. Cords might be rough.

[+urbo]

i got harassed by the railroad police when i was a kid for riding a moped down an abandoned street. i later found out the "no tresspassing" sign was on the other end of the street, not where i came in. i wouldnt have even known it was railroad property had the railroad cop not pointed it out.

 

if he pursued it with a good lawyer i think he could beat it unless there where clearly posted signs.

 

the penalty i read was nuts. if we keep protecting morons from themsleves we'll keep breeding idiots. where messing with natural selection. train.. large heavy metal object.. man.. small mushy thing made mostly of water.. train meet man.. man go squash.. DUH!

 

some laws are just plain overboard..

 

AS FAR AS URBAN CACHES...

i live in the city, what am i supposed to do? not play? no way guy.. my urban caches are liked by many and they dont put people in stupid places.

 

the sign said run into the street and grab the cache thats in the middle.. would you do it and then blame the guy who put out the unsafe cache?? folks need to use their common sense, both cachers and hiders.

 

urbo

[+urbo]

i got harassed by the railroad police when i was a kid for riding a moped down an abandoned street. i later found out the "no tresspassing" sign was on the other end of the street, not where i came in. i wouldnt have even known it was railroad property had the railroad cop not pointed it out.

 

if he pursued it with a good lawyer i think he could beat it unless there where clearly posted signs.

 

the penalty i read was nuts. if we keep protecting morons from themsleves we'll keep breeding idiots. where messing with natural selection. train.. large heavy metal object.. man.. small mushy thing made mostly of water.. train meet man.. man go squash.. DUH!

 

some laws are just plain overboard..

 

AS FAR AS URBAN CACHES...

i live in the city, what am i supposed to do? not play? no way guy.. my urban caches are liked by many and they dont put people in stupid places.

 

the sign said run into the street and grab the cache thats in the middle.. would you do it and then blame the guy who put out the unsafe cache?? folks need to use their common sense, both cachers and hiders.

 

urbo

[RedShoesGirl]

I dont' know if y'all are following the notes on the geo-court cache, but I asked the very basic question of HOW did the feebs find Hillwilly. So far there has not been an explanation. One guy wrote that Hillwilly plead no contest, but that didn't tell us HOW they found him in the first place to visit his house and get him to court.

 

For some reason this is really bothering me. Did geocaching.com give up the information once the RR police and the sheriff found the cache with the logo? Is our info safe here from the prying eyes of the government?

 

How was Hillwilly traced?! He hasn't answered that question on the cache site either.

 

This is something that should concern us all.

 

lara

 

[+Web-ling]

quote:

---

Originally posted by laraley:

 

Did geocaching.com give up the information once the RR police and the sheriff found the cache with the logo? Is our info safe here from the prying eyes of the government?

 

How was Hillwilly traced?! He hasn't answered that question on the cache site either.

 

This is something that should concern us all.

 

lara

 

---

 

I don't know if this happened, but *IF* Jeremy were presented with a warrant, he'd pretty much HAVE to give up the info, or face the probability of arrest himself. And I certainly wouldn't blame him if he cooperated fully.

 

[+Web-ling]

quote:

---

Originally posted by laraley:

How was Hillwilly traced?!

 

lara

 

---

 

His website is listed on the cache page. It would be easy to trace him from there.

 

[RedShoesGirl]

 

His website is listed on the cache page. It would be easy to trace him from there.

 

 

Not any more! When I clicked on that link earlier, it went to one of those generic town/area sites. That link is gone now.

 

But I see that Hillwilly has his full name one of his other caches so maybe that is how too.

 

[+WaldenRun]

Could someone please explain all the concern about privacy I see presented here? Are people saying that if they knew the 'authorities' were looking for the owner of one of their caches, they would want to try and hide behind their Geocaching handle? And, that it would be an invasion of their 'privacy' if their ownership was discovered? Thanks for any response

WR

 

"Why worry when you can obsess?"

[Choberiba]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Web-ling:

I don't know if this happened, but *IF* Jeremy were presented with a warrant, he'd pretty much HAVE to give up the info, or face the probability of arrest himself. And I certainly wouldn't blame him if he cooperated fully.

---

 

What information?

 

If you're worried about being tied to an object in the woods than use a computer at Kinkos and a throwaway email address. Jeremy has the IP address used, but if this address is tied to a public place, it's like calling from a payphone.

 

I put my real name and phone number in the caches I've placed, but I'm also real careful about where I put them.

[T3am Bandito]

hey if carnivour or eschalon comes looking for me too u never saw me ok? im sending this thru a ananamizer routed thru 23 foreign ip's that ive |-|4xOrz so no one can find us, i mean me

 

seriously the FBI ya'll... i bet we are all on the 'list' now just for contributing to this thread or even to this hobby.

 

<-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0->

S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

[T3am Bandito]

hey if carnivour or eschalon comes looking for me too u never saw me ok? im sending this thru a ananamizer routed thru 23 foreign ip's that ive |-|4xOrz so no one can find us, i mean me

 

seriously the FBI ya'll... i bet we are all on the 'list' now just for contributing to this thread or even to this hobby.

 

<-T 3 a |/| B a || d i T 0->

S [] U T |-| 3 U < |_ i D [] |-| | []

[+sbell111]

As I understand it, the facts in this case are fairly straight forward:

 

1) The cache was clearly on railroad property.

2) Spray paint was used without permission.

3) No permission was obtained.

 

If this is true, most judges are going to find a person guilty for criminal trespass, vandalism, possibly destruction of private property.

 

It is imperitive to the future of geocaching that we take a clear stand on this issue. We cannot be seen as condoning it.

 

One of us broke the law. A legal sentence was handed down. The lesson here is to not place caches on private property without permission.

[ride_bent]

quote:

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Originally posted by laraley:

BUT, I REALLY want to know how they knew who placed the cache. Doesn't that concern anyone else but me?

---

 

The easy way to catch a Geocacher is to place a new cache near the persons home and watch him/her come running with their GPS to find it!

 

The best things in life are not things...

[+VentureForth]

Hillwilly was pretty much ramrodded through an emotionally charged, unforgiving, 'I'll make a lesson outta you!' legal system which was designed to prosecute criminals, not negligent citizens.

 

And though I agree for the most part that ignorance is no excuse to disobey the law, there are some laws out there which are nearly impossible to know about, much less the potential punishment they carry.

 

Would YOU like for the police to come knocking on your door because a McDonalds cup you thought you threw away fell out of the dumpster and they traced you using fingerprints?

 

Sometimes, anonymity is one's only defense against the frivolous practice of law. I mean, really. For the judge to suspend his driver's license is really dumb. It had nothing to do with him placing the cache where he did. And the $2000 bombsquad bill and investigator's per diem? That's ridiculous!

 

Sure, in hind sight I see how placing a cache near an active railroad could be construed as terrorism. A little investigation, though, would have realized that this was a hobby with absolutely no intentions. So they dropped the terrorist charge. That's not leniency, 'cause he's not a terrorist. To drop the 1 year jail time wasn't leniency 'cause before 9-11, it wouldn't have been such a horrible crime.

 

Geocaching.com is not a database for police to find criminals. It's the compilation of individual's intellectual property. Unless there was a warrant to get the information from the site (which could be justifiable), it should be ok to hide in the cloak of anonymity here.

 

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

[+geospotter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sbell111:

As I understand it, the facts in this case are fairly straight forward:

 

1) The cache was clearly on railroad property.

2) Spray paint was used without permission.

3) No permission was obtained.

 

---

 

I'd like to add two more -- 4) The cacher endangered other cachers' lives, and 5) The cacher gave geocaching a bad name.

 

While I agree that the sentence was too harsh, everything about this cache was wrong.

[+EliJoMikMiNi]

Please don't take this as an agreement with the system we live under...but I have always been told that ignorance is no excuse under the law. In other words, just because you didnt 'KNOW' it was illegal...

And we live under a lot of rules, regulations, and laws, in this great U.S. of A. And I am proud to be American.

 

Just let me say to HillWilly, so sorry that you had to be an example from that judge.

 

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

Vince Lombarde

[+RAD Dad]

Heck they could easily track me down. I even have a phone number for contact in case of an emergency as well as my email address, and the geocaching website address. I'm not doing this to purposely break any laws, or cause any panic, so if the authorities do have a problem with one of my caches, I want them to be able to contact me and allow me to resolve it, before they end up blowing it up.

 

Of course I do think it was a poor idea to place a cache near a railroad tunnel entrance, especially considering the times. But still, the judge went way way way way way overboard.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

[+RAD Dad]

Heck they could easily track me down. I even have a phone number for contact in case of an emergency as well as my email address, and the geocaching website address. I'm not doing this to purposely break any laws, or cause any panic, so if the authorities do have a problem with one of my caches, I want them to be able to contact me and allow me to resolve it, before they end up blowing it up.

 

Of course I do think it was a poor idea to place a cache near a railroad tunnel entrance, especially considering the times. But still, the judge went way way way way way overboard.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

[+EliJoMikMiNi]

Oh, and just so you know, here in Kanawha County, the Dept. of Natural Resources can have your DL suspended if you are fishing without a Fishing License and don't promptly pay the fine. Even though you can never reach anyone AT the DNR to talk to them about the ticket. My daughter found this out the hard way. One year suspended license and because of that, she lost her car insurance! Fun huh?

 

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

Vince Lombarde

[+EliJoMikMiNi]

Oh, and just so you know, here in Kanawha County, the Dept. of Natural Resources can have your DL suspended if you are fishing without a Fishing License and don't promptly pay the fine. Even though you can never reach anyone AT the DNR to talk to them about the ticket. My daughter found this out the hard way. One year suspended license and because of that, she lost her car insurance! Fun huh?

 

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

Vince Lombarde

[jfitzpat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by VentureForth:

Hillwilly was pretty much ramrodded through an emotionally charged, unforgiving, 'I'll make a lesson outta you!' legal system which was designed to prosecute criminals, not negligent citizens.

---

 

So, if I snuck onto your property, did a little spray painting, and stashed a box. Would I be 'criminal' or 'negligent'? If I picked a dangerous spot on your property, and encouraged other people to visit it (thus increasing *your* potential liability if someone is hurt or killed) which of us would you consider 'stupid', me, for doing it, or you for taking steps to elliminate the problem and indemnify yourself?

 

I'm all for enforcing laws, and I don't mind judges trying to teach people that some behavior is stupid. Taking a Drivers License seems like a nice creative alternate sentancing to me. Look at it from the judge's point of view:

 

The conduct was illegal, costly, mildly destructive, and foolishly endangered others. Financial renumeration for the services may not make an impact (depends upon the defendant's ability to pay). Sending a non-violant defendant to jail (possible under the statutes) will get give him a chance to learn about non-Biblical sex from thugs, but probably won't serve society or teach him anything.

 

A suspended license gives a daily reminder to the benefits of a 'think first, then do...' approach to life. In some states, it also serves another purpose. It ups the sentancing ante for certain minor property crimes, etc.

 

Me, once I saw the aerial and read "spray paint", my sympathy evaporated. I think 'Taggers' deserve all the punishment that the law allows. I don't cry when they fall off freeway signs (or get hit by trains), but I do feel bad when their actions injure others.

 

-jjf

[+Renegade Knight]

So as I see it, I tresspass about every day on railroad property. After all I have to cross the tracks to go to town, get to work, check out if my favorit car lot has something worth looking at...

 

Also if the public access a point often enough without permission they have created a defacto easement of puclic access. Now it takes a lawyer, and money to prove that. Both of which the railroad have and Joe Geocacher doesn't.

 

But the truth is, people are charged with all the crimes they break every day when they do somethign that annoyes the authorities. If I get caught with a firecracker, I'd get fined for that, Resisting arrest, Rackteering (sold some to a friend), Possession of illegal fireworks, Child endangerment, transporting illeagal goods (had to get them home somehow), Tax Evasion, Spousal Abuse (for putting her through my arrest), conspiracy to buy illegal explosives, conspiracy to commit domestic terrorism, credit card fraud (paying for illegal items),... I could go on.

 

I wonder if they arrest all the Railroad grafitti artists, or just Geocachers.

[Geo Quest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by geospotter:

 

I'd like to add two more -- 4) The cacher endangered other cachers' lives, and 5) The cacher gave geocaching a bad name.

 

While I agree that the sentence was too harsh, everything about this cache was wrong.

---

 

How in the world did he endanger other cachers' lives? By placing the cache near a train track? There are many caches near train tracks. Does that mean they all endanger lives? If it does then you have to admit that ALL caches have some element of danger to them. All caches therefore endanger others. The question then becomes one of liability. I did one I had to climb a tree to get to. If I would have fallen I surely would have died. My life was in danger. But I was the one who took the risk, not the cache placer. This is exactly the scenerio I was afraid was going to happen. The first geo-lawsuit is coming. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+parkrrrr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

So as I see it, I tresspass about every day on railroad property. After all I have to cross the tracks to go to town, get to work, check out if my favorit car lot has something worth looking at...

---

 

Somewhere in the first page of this thread I posted a link to Indiana's law regarding trespassing on railroad property. As you'll note if you read it carefully, crossing at a public crossing is exempted, as is crossing the tracks if you're going from one part to another part of a farm that you either own or lease, and several other legitimate reasons to cross the tracks. And oh, look, one of those legitimate reasons is having written permission. Maybe we could geocache on railroad property after all if we just found the right person to ask for permission and got them to grant it.

 

quote:

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Also if the public access a point often enough without permission they have created a defacto easement of puclic access.

---

 

Except in the case of railroad tracks. Again looking at Indiana law, because I know where to find it, I see that there is a law specifically designed to make that not so, IC 8-3-15-1. (on the same page as the previous law, further up.)

 

[+parkrrrr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Geo Quest:

How in the world did he endanger other cachers' lives? By placing the cache near a train track? There are many caches near train tracks.

---

 

If you haven't read the logs and looked at the aerial photo of the cache site, with the cache marked (say on lostoutdoors.com) do so now. This thing wasn't just near a train track, it was practically on a train track, and not very far from a blind tunnel. A person standing on the tracks at that point would not have much warning of a train approaching from the south, and some people who were actually there noted this: (I've bolded some stuff that wasn't bolded in the original logs)

quote:

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Wow, it sure is creepy walking along the track to the cache, especially when you can't see the oher end of the tunnel.

---

quote:

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But please be careful, a single locomotive came out of there just as quiet as can be. He was coasting and very quiet. Had a hard time getting the gold off that rock however, that is after I got the _ _ _ out of my pants.

---

quote:

---

We found this quickly and that is what you want to do. When we looked at the map we thought it was on the other side. Quiltma was scared and in a hurry. My mommy told me never to play there.

---

quote:

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Howdy, Always interested in RxR and history... but this is a somewhat dangerous cache location. Didn't have much time for I heard the train acomin...round the bend.

---

 

[+geospotter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geo Quest:

 

How in the world did he endanger other cachers' lives? By placing the cache near a train track?

 

---

 

Exactly! 10 to 20 people are killed EACH WEEK (on average, depending on the year quoted) on railroad tracks. EACH WEEK! (I don't have the stats for falling out of trees.)

 

Year 2000 was a particularly good year ONLY 463 fatalities.

 

Also, the 'defacto public easement' argument doesn't fly. To prevent it, all the property owner has to do is shut down access to that section of property completely once a year to maintain ownership, which the RR does each year for maintenance.

[+VentureForth]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jfitzpat:

I'm all for enforcing laws, and I don't mind judges trying to teach people that some behavior is stupid. Taking a Drivers License seems like a nice creative alternate sentancing to me.

A suspended license gives a daily reminder to the benefits of a 'think first, then do...' approach to life. In some states, it also serves another purpose. It ups the sentancing ante for certain minor property crimes, etc.

---

 

I can agree with most of what you said except for part I quoted. A punishment should fit the crime. After reading more into this, I think that the $2000 fine was appropriate, under the circumstances. Taking away his driver's license was not a creative alternative, but rather part of the initial package of jail, license suspension, and fine. Jail - not good for this problem for same reasons you stated. License suspension - creates a barrier towards being a productive member of society, mainly having a job. If he lives where public transportation is available, then he may enjoy the savings on gas, registration, inspection, etc for a year. Fine - I regress here. I think that it was appropriate after reading the logs and some of the other concerns.

 

Could there have been an alternative? I have found that deferred adjudication is very effective in behavior reform. It's a 2nd chance. Many people make mistakes in judgement. Many people commit misdemeanors on purpose, feeling that what they are doing isn't a big deal and they won't get caught anyway. Deferred Adjudication basically tells someone, "Look. You broke the laws. There are consequenses. You will be caught. We'll let you go, but if you do something like this again in the next 5 to 10 years, you're going to get the book thrown at you for this and whatever got you here again. Got it?"

 

If I knew I would get slapped with a $2000 fine and lose my license for a year and perhaps spend close, quality time with a brute named 'Bubba', I don't think I would ever commit that crime again.

 

All that being said, I still worry about how they found him and if anyone's civil rights were violated to prosecute this case.

 

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

 

[This message was edited by VentureForth on May 09, 2002 at 09:14 AM.]

[+parkrrrr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

If you haven't read the logs and looked at the aerial photo of the cache site, with the cache marked (say on lostoutdoors.com) do so now.

---

 

For what it's worth, I've made a little aerial photo to illustrate the location of the cache here (Well, okay, I extracted the code for that picture from the results page of my sooper-seekrit cache-finding script...)

 

[jfitzpat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by VentureForth:

 

"Look. You broke the laws. There are consequenses. You will be caught. We'll let you go, but if you do something like this again in the next 5 to 10 years, you're going to get the book thrown at you for this and whatever got you here again. Got it?"

 

If I _knew_ I would get slapped with a $2000 fine and lose my license for a year and perhaps spend close, quality time with a brute named 'Bubba', I don't think I would ever commit that crime again.

---

 

First, I have zero sympathy for anything involving a spray can (long story), so I am probably less sympathetic than I would be normally. Each time a tagger falls and dies in LA, I can sense the average intelligence of the race increasing...

 

Second, a defendant's attitude in court can make a big difference. I'd have to look again, but it seems that this individual felt persecuted and was looking for a group of supporting peers to appear. Accepting responsibility, contrition, and remorse will generally get you a lighter sentance than defiance and rabble rousing.

 

Last, if a number of folks did show up in support, or if the judge was just aware of the effort to raise the support, it might have worked against the defendant. You said it yourself "If I knew..." Judges know that having the law on the books is one thing. Sending a message directly to a group is another. It bites to be the 'example', but setting examples does work, in the classroom, in the workplace, and in the courtroom...

 

-jjf

[Geo Quest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by geospotter:

 

Exactly! 10 to 20 people are killed EACH WEEK (on average, depending on the year quoted) on railroad tracks. EACH WEEK! (I don't have the stats for falling out of trees)

---

 

Are you saying you believe he (Hillwilly) endangered others' lives? It sounds like you think the cache placer is responsible for ensuring the safety of the cache seeker.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+Rebel]

Yep, he endangered lives.

 

Yep, a cache placer has a responsibility of safety for seekers.

[Geo Quest]

I hope to goodness you are kidding. This is exactly what's wrong with society. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions. If cache placers are responsible for ensuring the safety of cache seekers (as you say) then they can be held liable for injuries incurred by cache seekers while attempting to find that cache. I do not for one second beleive that if I get hurt while seeking your cache that you are responsible. However, your opinion seems to be a popular one. The simple fact that there are cachers out there who hold similar views is why I think the first geo-lawsuit is only a matter of time. It is also why I have pulled all of my caches. I do not intend to be the first one of us who gets sued. If I do place any more it will only be with permission and with a disclaimer on the cache page.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+Alan2]

I'm not a lawyer, however,

 

1. Cache seekers download cache waypoints without ever looking at the cache page and then go off on their merry way without understanding the difficult or possible trouble they can run into. That's allowed by this site.

 

2. Regardless, if there's a lawsuit, this and the other geocaching sites will probably be sued as well. Of course their being corporation (I assume), the liability is limited to the corporation unlike the cache placer.

 

3. Liability limitations probably would vary from state to state according to their statutes.

 

4. I think comparable data should come from other sporting activities such as: a. Orienteering clubs that set up routes. What happens if someone falls while running in a contest? b. People set up a baseball ame on an iregular field and someone breaks their neck. c. You envite friends to come along on a hike that you set up and someone gets lost and dies.

 

Question: Have law suits in these kind of incidents ever been successful?

 

Lawyers? statisticians?

 

Alan

[+geospotter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geo Quest:

I do not intend to be the first one of us who gets sued.

---

 

If you create an environment were someone could be hurt, you not only could be sued, you can be charged with creating an "attractive nuisance". An inground pool with no fence, a construction site, a car with the engine running and an open door with kids nearby, etc. These are 'invitations' to danger to people who might not be aware of the extent of that danger. It doesn't matter if you or I think it is dangerous. It only matters if the judge thinks it's dangerous.

 

I agree with you that, at some point, a cacher has to say to themselves that a cache just might be too dangerous. The judge, however, will want to protect that 10 year-old kid borrowing daddy's GPS to go find toys.

 

I wouldn't worry about a lawsuit over injuries. The first geo-lawsuit will probably be over trademark infringement. You know.....perhaps someone using a registered trademark as a nickname....like "GeoQuest" (or even Geospotter).

 

geospotter

[+sbell111]

If you place a cache, it would be your responsibility to appropraitely warn of dangers. If you post a 'cache at your own risk' warning to the cache page, this should protect you in the event of a lawsuit related to their injury.

 

Grounded Inc attempts to indemnify themselves in this manner be posting the following disclaimer on the site:

 

'In no way shall Grounded Inc. nor any agency, officer, or employee of Grounded Inc., be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, or consequential damages arising out of, or in any way connected with the use of this website or use of the information contained within.

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.'

 

Disclaimers such as this do not protect you against getting sued. They tend to protect you against losing a lawsuit. Unfortunately, suits are decided by people who occasionally overlook reason in favor of pity.

[+Hillwilly]

Hi, this is Hillwilly and Di the cachers that put out Tunnel Vision 1909 on August 30, 2001. GC1A1C. The cache was placed 100-150 feet of the actual tunnel entrance. We didn't know about the 150' on either side of the RR property was private. Nothing was posted anywhere. This is quite a rural area. This is just across the border in California, for we live just a few miles across the border in Central Oregon, in Keno, Oregon.Spray paint was painted on a rock by the cache so the hillside wouldn't be tore up and the cache would be easy to find, because this is a very interesting tunnel sight.

Then, Hillwilly spray painted inside the tunnel along with all the other graffitti. (Hillwilly and Di and Jesus is Lord.)You think he'd of known better than that. Maybe this is why they call him Hillwilly!!!!!! He has been to the big city before though...Maybe it's a mid-life crisis thing.

Engineers saw GEO-CACHERS at the scene. Going back a little bit, When September 11th hit us, everything changed our lives for the future. This happened to be the weekend that all the agencies were watching out for all the tunnels and bridges all over the country to be blown up. So they were being very cautious when they spotted someone at our cache placing the cache back in the rocks.

They found us by our Geo-Caching names painted on the tunnel wall. They would of found us anyway through Geo-caching which they did. The cache was a small ammo-can with wwwGeo-caching.com and the name of the cache Tunnel Vision 1909 on the outside of it.We contacted them when they contacted us through Ge-Caching, telling this that this is a very serious matter and if we didn't by that Friday that they were going to file terrorist charges on us in Washington D.C. We had nothing to hide so we contacted them immediately.(You know they always get their man).

There was a deputy Sheriff at the scene from a near-by town that is a GEO_CACHER that knew what this was all about and they wouldn't listen to him..... The police electronic instruments picked up an electrical signal coming from the ammo- can. That's when they called in the bomb squad.There happened to be batteries in there placed by a geo-cacher that we always put in there for trading items. That is the electronics that were picked up by their instruments..The ammo-box was opened up by the bomb squad by a water cannon.

The special agent out of Redding, California that was handling the case, was very kind and understanding and we want to thank him very much for being understanding in this matter.

The day in court:

The plea was no contest...guilty with an explaination. The judge was presented with Geo-Caching articles, pictures and cache pages, etc. which he was not interested in at all.Hillwilly brought up to the judge that he was never sighted,arrested nor ticketed for this matter. The charges were ciminal trespass (misdemeanor) and criminal vandalism (mis-demeanor) the judge said that it didn't matter if he wasn't sighted because they had a victim involved, which was the railroad. They incurred a 4 1/2 hour railroad train detainment while they stopped traffic on Highway 97 and also waited for the police, FBI and the bomb squad to show up.This caused the railroad shifts to go overtime so they had to call in new crews and taxi the old crews into Klamath Falls and put them into motels and then taxi them back to California the next day. So there was a very big expense to do this.

Total expenses to cover this was$1650.00 and with the court costs fines and fees the grand total was $2030.00 . Jail time 1 year, which he suspended that, and gave him 1 year probatiion to stay out of all trouble and away from all RR property for 1 year unless he is on the train.He has a loss of drivers license for 1 year in the state of Claifornia, which doesn't make any sense since he wasn't driving or this wasn't a moving violation of any kind. Hillwilly has an Oregon's drivers license so this makes the question even more difficult to understand.

, Stay out of California, Hillwilly.

OVER KILL???????

Just wanted to thank everyone for their support and the kind words to us. Happy trails to all, Geo-cachers------ Hillwilly and Di

[Tweedler]

I work for **RR. Ever since 9/11 every train crew receives an advisory with their track warrant that tells them to immediately report any suspicious activity on or near railroad property. Being in the control tower of a rail yard which is near a river, yard crews and train crews give me many of these reports in reference to the river bridge. Depending on how the crew describes the activity, I either report it to the RR police, or ignore it, because on any given day, and especially on river bridges, we always have trespassers. I would be more inclined to have the tresspaser removed for safety reasons, than as a terrorist threat. They walk all through the yard, climb in cars, and dangerously climb between cars, seriously risking their lives out of ignorance. I can recall only a handfull of times in over 40 years, where we arrested a tresspasser. I have personally contacted trespassers (without benefit of gun and badge) and have removed them by simply stating to them that they are trespassing, and if they will leave the property, I will not call the police. It works 99% of the time. It is rare for a trespasser to put up an argument, and even rarer for them to become agressive, unless you are talking about a rail yard near the Mexican border.

 

In my humble professional opinion, I would advise against placing a cache near a railroad structure but if you do, use a little common sense and don't put it on a bridge or tunnel, and definitely don't put your name in it.

 

I believe that 911 hysteria is what got HillWilly busted.

 

By the way, check this cache out. It was created by a RR Special Agent (policeman). It is right next to the tracks, although he didn't place it there. Ask him what he thinks?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=10858

 

[This message was edited by Tweedler on June 09, 2002 at 12:33 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Tweedler on June 09, 2002 at 12:38 PM.]

[+lostinjersey]

If the authorities got the info from Jeremy via subpoena, thats one thing, totally legit. If not, it makes ya wonder just how they did ID him. Thats where the privacy comes in. What methods did they use and were they completely legal? Theres been no indication they'[ve contacted Jeremy, and the diea that he put contact info inside the cache isn't likely or even plausable since they blew it up. I'm betting it was thru his personal website. That information isnt hard to obtain at all.

 

Caching with a 5 year old: takes 2x as long, it's 2x as satisifying

 

The faster you go, the worse your reception is.

[+Whidbey Walk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwho:

If the authorities got the info from Jeremy via subpoena, thats one thing, totally legit. If not, it makes ya wonder just how they did ID him. Thats where the privacy comes in. What methods did they use and were they completely legal? Theres been no indication they'[ve contacted Jeremy, and the diea that he put contact info inside the cache isn't likely or even plausable since they blew it up. I'm betting it was thru his personal website. That information isnt hard to obtain at all.

 

_Caching with a 5 year old: takes 2x as long, it's 2x as satisifying _

 

_The faster you go, the worse your reception is._

---

Read Hillywilly's post 2 above yours.

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~whidbeywalk/