Can we salvage anything good from this pirate issue?

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

If they want to call it "pirating," who cares? Cachers refer to "aliens" and "muggles." Are they anti-wizards or from outer space?

(speaking in a slow voice)

because... pirates... loot... and... steal...

Main Entry: pi·ra·cy

Pronunciation: 'pI-r&-sE

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural -cies

Etymology: Medieval Latin piratia, from Late Greek peirateia, from Greek peiratEs pirate

Date: 1537

1 : an act of robbery on the high seas; also : an act resembling such robbery

2 : robbery on the high seas

3 : the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Are you implying I'm and idiot, or mentally retarded? The insulting tone surely can't be neutral or complimentary.

Harry Potter doesn't exist. Why call non-cachers muggles? Why call them aliens if they are not from outer space or another country? Why call people cachers if they TNLN?

Answer: Because we can utilize terms to fit the hobby without having to get all bent about the semantics.

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

5.7k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
This variant doesn't belong on this site. Here's why:

Moving caches are no longer allowed because it is too hard to verify that a particular placement is safe and legal (or appropriate). This would be the same issue with contents being moved. Basically, the pirate is free to place the contents where ever they like with none of the double checking that we get with the admins. This is a bad thing. Basically what I am saying is that unless the new placement of the "stolen goods" was run by an approver this shouldn't be allowed.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

Why move the cache? Why not set up a "stealth" cache with instructions placed in an "official" cache, so someone who wants to play can discover the "map" and take part?

You miss my point. The placement of the "stealth" cache has not been approved by the approvers as safe and appropriate. This is an important thing as this sport grows. I only used moving caches as an example because they are no longer allowed and the reasons that they aren't allowed are similar to the reasons why "stealth" caches wouldn't be allowed.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
You miss my point. The placement of the "stealth" cache has not been approved by the approvers as safe and appropriate. This is an important thing as this sport grows. I only used moving caches as an example because they are no longer allowed and the reasons that they aren't allowed are similar to the reasons why "stealth" caches wouldn't be allowed.

...which puts the "pirate" part back in. The idea was to find a way for someone who wants to "pirate" to find a way that does not raid/vandalize/destroy another person's property (their cache). I'm only suggesting a way to do it that would not destroy another person's property.

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

September 25, 2003

well... I guess this whole debate could help shape and define what the game really is, and what it is not. I've seen some excellent posts about this in this thread and in other threads. I hope the TPTB are taking good notes.

Personally, I'm against moving, looting, plundering, altering, or "adding on to" caches without permission from the owner, without approval from GC.com, and without informing potential finders through the website about the altered cache.

Plus, if you add on to a cache with another, like a multi, don't existing rules say you have to get GC.com approval for that?

got a couple days off, off to do some cachin'!

2.1k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

If they want to call it "pirating," who cares? Cachers refer to "aliens" and "muggles." Are they anti-wizards or from outer space?

(speaking in a slow voice)

because... pirates... loot... and... steal...

Someone has never been to Disney World's Magic Kingdom or watched The Princess Bride...

Now what am I going to tell my kids!

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
You miss my point. The placement of the "stealth" cache has not been approved by the approvers as safe and appropriate. This is an important thing as this sport grows. I only used moving caches as an example because they are no longer allowed and the reasons that they aren't allowed are similar to the reasons why "stealth" caches wouldn't be allowed.

...which puts the "pirate" part back in. The idea was to find a way for someone who wants to "pirate" to find a way that does not raid/vandalize/destroy another person's property (their cache). I'm only suggesting a way to do it that would not destroy another person's property.

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

Way to go! Let's see if we can come up with some more creative ideas for people that want to break the rules. I haven't seen cache graffitti yet.

Trying to be "open minded" and see your point: so someone likes geocaching enough to want to do a hide, but doesn't like gc.com or it's approval process, so they piggyback off an existing, approved cache. I think that gc.com would say to use some other means of promoting your cache altogether, wouldn't they?

I can see gc.com approving "extension" caches where they have the neccesary information to approve it, but the information to find it would be retrieved from other (approved) caches.

But again, we're not talking about piracy anymore, are we?

September 25, 2003

Doing anything to a cache without asking the owner’s permission is just plain immoral.

The pirate doing this is simply arrogant, thinking “Ah-ha! I am so wonderful and smart! I will do something to out-shine this other person, and everyone will love my brilliance!!”

Bulls**t. This is just plain immature. It’s to be expected of a slightly retarded seven-year-old, who may have not learned enough socially to understand that defacing the art-work of the student next to him is not clever, but just nasty and mean.

If you have an extension/bonus idea to a cache, create a new cache, tell the admins the position, indicate in the cache page that the "cache is not at these coordinates, but can be found in the XYZ cache" and leave it at that. Use coordinates in the middle of the ocean (as one cacher has done) to “hide” the cache page.

If you want to take another person’s cache and make a game of it, then share the game with the cache owner and become co-conspirators.

Anything else is childish.

-Jif

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
You miss my point. The placement of the "stealth" cache has not been approved by the approvers as safe and appropriate. This is an important thing as this sport grows. I only used moving caches as an example because they are no longer allowed and the reasons that they aren't allowed are similar to the reasons why "stealth" caches wouldn't be allowed.

Why would the "stealth" cache need to be "approved by the approvers"?. The stealth cache is NOT listed on GC.com so it doesn't really need their approval.

GC is NOT geocaching - its a listing site. If you want to list a cache on GC you do it according to their rules. But a stealth cache is NOT listed on GC so there is no compelling reason on the part of the stealth cache placer to obtain GC's approval or permission.

Personally, I'd rather find a note in a cache directing me to a bonus stealth cache than some religious tract directing me how to find god.

I kind of like this idea of one-time stealth/bonus/leprechaun/rogue caches. If that makes me a pirate then all I can say is, "Arrrr".

__________

Gorak

1.2k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team AshandEs:

quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:
How about a national "Do Not Pirate" list?

I think that's the wrong way round. "Do Not Pirate" should be assumed. There should be a "Go Ahead and Pirate" list.

________________________

What is caches precious?

While I agree with Team AshandEs, I still got a chuckle out of the idea of a *Do Not Pirate List* LOL.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I forgot to ask, where do I sign up for the *Do Not Break Into My Car* List again?????

"Afghanistan was a battle. Iraq was a battle. The war goes on."

September 25, 2003

Last time: The point is suggesting that people who want to be "fringe" do not need to destroy another person's property in order to do so. Since the tone of responses cannot seem to rise above rude or patronizing, I'll drop it and stop offering the pirates non-destructive alternatives.

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Breaktrack:
EDIT: I'm sorry, I forgot to ask, where do I sign up for the *Do Not Break Into My Car* List again?????

Just don't forget to put your *Do not mug/assault/kill me* card in your wallet before you go out. Accidently leaving it at home can get you into all sorts of trouble.

________________________

What is caches precious?

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team AshandEs:
Just don't forget to put your *Do not mug/assault/kill me* card in your wallet before you go out. Accidently leaving it at home can get you into all sorts of trouble.

Some states have that...

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

9.1k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by CYBret:
Something I was wondering about (and yes, it would need to be done with the cache owner's permission) is something I thought of as a "Leprechaun Cache." I hope someone will pass my apologies on to the Leprechauns for my using their name for this)

Goodness! No apologies needed for this great idea that does NOT affect the original cache in any way. What you describe is similar to the "Finders Keepers" bonus caches that Enfanta hides here in Pennsylvania. Clue in the geocache, leading to independent bonus prize elsewhere nearby. I'd be flattered to have my account name associated with such a variant. Speaking of which... I am sure glad I didn't pick a geocaching name that had "Pirate" in it! There are MANY good and decent geocachers with Pirate-sounding names so let's remember not to point any fingers at them.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

September 25, 2003

Seems like a cool idea to me, at least the way it's been explained to me. I can't really see any viable negative points to it (once again, in the way I understand it will work).

I've been lead to a cache that's already "flagged" as "pirate-friendly", and I think it's a great idea to welcome pirates to your cache - this may well deter anti-pirates from seeking your cache as well, if they so desire. Or, perhaps people will visit the caches more often or look for pirate-friendly caches to try out the "new" system and hope to get a new cache container to place their next cache! Here's the logo I've used (I "borrowed" it from another cache with the same logo):

To this end, I have edited my caches to include this "Pirate Friendly" logo. The logo links to the site explaining the process of "plundering" a cache and what to do if you find a "plundered" cache. See an example of one of my caches here.

As for the name attributed to "pirating" a cache, it all has to do with your perception of the word "pirate". Personally, when I think of pirating software etc. it's all negative. But to think of a pirate on the high seas (eye, matey!) has now turned to something that kids love and people seem to enjoy (think of a Pirate Pack at a White Spot restaurant, etc., for those in areas with that restaurant). So, I think the name fits and is friendly enough (as long as it's a friendly pirate). Of course, that's just my perception of the word.

Happy pirating!

1.1k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

Are you implying I'm and idiot, or mentally retarded? The insulting tone surely can't be neutral or complimentary.

Harry Potter doesn't exist. Why call non-cachers muggles? Why call them aliens if they are not from outer space or another country? Why call people cachers if they TNLN?

Answer: Because we can utilize terms to fit the hobby without having to get all bent about the semantics.

I think you're misguided, and you don't listen. A majority of geocachers consider piracy of any kind childish and stupid. My slow writing is to indicate you tend to race over the parts that don't suit your argument.

There are bad aliens and good aliens. There are bad muggles and good muggles. There are bad pirates and ... oh wait. I guess there aren't good pirates.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
I think you're misguided, and you don't listen. A majority of geocachers consider piracy of any kind childish and stupid. My slow writing is to indicate you tend to race over the parts that don't suit your argument.

Then say so instead of assuming a tone that is insulting at best, antagonizing at worst.

The majority feel that, yes. The issue that I have been addressing is, how can something like this be done without destroying caches? Apparently I am not the only one who does not listen, who tends to race over the parts that don't suit their arguments.

quote:
There are bad aliens and good aliens. There are bad muggles and good muggles. There are bad pirates and ... oh wait. I guess there aren't good pirates.

Then why bother allowing the discourse?

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
A majority of geocachers consider piracy of any kind childish and stupid.

Bold statement. Your source please?

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

9.4k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:
Then why bother allowing the discourse?

You're right. There are moments where one gets nowhere with a discussion.

quote:
I'll drop it and stop offering the pirates non-destructive alternatives.

Hear hear!

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

September 25, 2003

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

A majority of geocachers consider piracy of any kind childish and stupid.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bold statement. Your source please?

Try any one of a dozen threads on this subject. Not to mention the emails Jeremy and Co. have probably been getting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:
Then why bother allowing the discourse?

You're right. There are moments where one gets nowhere with a discussion.

quote:
I'll drop it and stop offering the pirates non-destructive alternatives.

Hear hear!

This has been very enlightening.

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

September 25, 2003

quote:
...idea was to find a way for someone who wants to "pirate" to find a way that does not raid/vandalize/destroy another person's property (their cache).

quote:
And I've never seen a deer tick

And I don't have extra ziplocks

And I've never gotten lost and had to make a cellphone call

And I never need a flashlight

And I don't like hunting virtuals

And I've never been to Boston in the fall.

'Cause they're the pirates who don't do anything!

Ode to a Pigeon: Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You Lookin' at Me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?! (b. katt, 7/14/03)

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:
The majority feel that, yes. The issue that I have been addressing is, how can something like this be done without destroying caches?

Have you posted your suggestions on the Pirate's forum? Would that not be a more appropriate place to make them? They are the people to whom you suggestions are aimed.

You keep saying you are offering the pirates alternatives (or that you are going to stop offering them alternatives). Why not take it to the people the alternatives are intended for. Why not offer your suggestions to the minority they are intended for.

Just a suggestion that might alliviate some of the frustration you seem to feel over how your ideas have been received here.

________________________

What is caches precious?

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:
Try any one of a dozen threads on this subject. Not to mention the emails Jeremy and Co. have probably been getting.

I've read quite a bit on this topic, and you're right, I don't have access to the kind of information Jeremy has access to, but my point was, do you think he's polled all geocachers, or even enough geocachers to know that a majority think... etc.

I just question whether the forums and emails are enough to give one an accurate representation of the community's opinion as a whole.

Furthermore, I think its clear that anyone who supports, or even elusively comments positively on "pirating," (however you define that) in the forums, has to be prepared for a world of grief.

whether or not that's "right" or not is beside the point, my point is that maybe those who are willing to put up with pirating,or even like piraing aren't too vocal.

What with the squeaky wheel and the grease and all that.

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

September 25, 2003

I'm glad I started this thread - there has been some good discussion. Permit me to summarize some of the ideas, and bring the focus back to getting something productive out of this. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but there's just so much to say.

First and foremost, there's general agreement that no cache is to be tampered with without the owner's consent. Done. That was part of my original premise, but for some reason people feel the need to keep saying, "leave my cache alone". Understand we have no real control over what others do, but the purpose of this thread is to discuss and develop ideas for variants that are acceptable. That means no 'tampering' without the cache owner's express permission. Note that in my area, this is already happening - some cache owners are giving blanket permission for Captain Urchin to 'plunder' their caches. That doesn't mean anyone else has to do so. The default is that caches will NOT be changed unless the owner gives prior approval. Any pirates that violate this agreement are acting outside the 'law', and are not what we're discussing here.

People are saying "if they get permission, it's not really pirating." Absolutely right. No more than a kid dressing up like Long John Silver for Hallowe'en deserves to be thrown in the brig. But the treasure maps, booty, and other affectations can be fun. With all due respect to Jeremy and his dictionary quote, people are getting too hung up on the label. Still, as I said before, it might be good to give it another name. But regardless what we call it, the 'pirating' being discussed in this thread is similar in some respects to the bad pirating, but fundamentally different in that the 'pirate' is doing nothing against the rules, without permission, or intending to generate negative feelings.

It seems that part of the fun for the pirates is the surprise factor. You never know what cache will be 'hit' or when it will happen. Requiring permission doesn't need to change that. All a pirate needs to do is get permission from half a dozen prolific cache-placers, and he could have a list of 50 caches open for 'plundering'. Permission is granted, yet still nobody knows where he's going to appear next. Granted, this aspect may make it less likely to work in cache-sparse areas, but even then there's potential.

There is one point that has been brought up that I think bears closer scrutiny, and I'd like to see what TPTB have to say about it. That is the requirement of admin approval. I can definitely understand the rationale of those in favour of it - the same reasons caches have to be approved in the first place. But we don't currently have an approval process for owners changing their own caches. How is this any different? If a cache owner approves the changes a 'pirate' (or leprechaun, or any other person) makes, that's not really any different from if they'd made the change themselves. Requiring admin approval would/could add a huge burden to the admins. Like I said - I'd like to hear some opinions from Admins.

On to some lighter issues (I think). I'm not sure the 0.1 mile rule applies. We're talking about a cache extension, like a multi, and there's no requirement that the stages in a multi have to be over 0.1 mile apart. I don't think these need to be either.

Southdeltan brought up the impact to the cache finder, who's not expecting this change to a cache. The idea as it presently stands is that the original cache, with the logbook and some 'booty', would still be present at its normal location, and participation in the extension would be entirely optional.

2oldfarts, despite obviously not wanting to participate in 'pirating' (absolutely fine), did pose an insightful question: If someone adds a 'linked cache' to one of my caches who is responsible for the maintenance of it? I'd say that by default it falls to the pirate, but any agreement can be made between the two parties. Other thoughts?

Team AshandEs suggested taking the discussion to the pirate's forum on their website. I did that back when the pirate discussion got going on the Canada forum here. In fact, that's what led to Captain Urchin agreeing that getting permission from cache owners was not such a bad idea, and I understand that is how he's operating now. The point of holding this discussion here is that we're talking about variants to OUR game, and how to make it acceptable to US. It wouldn't do much good to ask them that, would it?

Another point of discussion - would there be any changes that could be requested of TPTB to facilitate this? I think in most cases, the answer is no. Cache extensions/changes can be done by cache owners already - this variant doesn't require anything special in that regard. However, there may be some things that could be done:

- Expand FAQ to educate would-be pirates on an acceptable approach.

- Incorporate a "Pirated" (leprechauned/etc.) logo, similar to TBs (I don't personally agree with this one, but it was suggested, so it may have merit)

- Allow separate ownership of stages in a multi. (This would have much broader applications than the pirate concept.)

As a final note, I think the sample requests posted by J&MBella were a great illustration of how this would work. (Basically, love your cache, I'd like to add an extension, what do you think.) The only thing I'd maybe add is a request for any special placement knowledge the cache owner may have (permission required, sensitive/dangerous terrain, etc.) That, and it may be written in pirate/leprechaun/etc. lingo.

For those who had the patience to read this far, I thank you for your time.

SylvrStorm

3k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
A majority of geocachers consider piracy of any kind childish and stupid.

Bold statement. Your source please?

Pan

Well, it is pretty obvious that the source is right here in the forums. Most cachers want their caches left as is, no plundering, enhancing, removing items, changing, adding onto, etc....

Planet

September 25, 2003

Am I that obtuse?

I can only assume that I am the one not making myself clear.

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

September 25, 2003

Well, it is pretty obvious that the source is right here in the forums. Most cachers want their caches left as is, no plundering, enhancing, removing items, changing, adding onto, etc....

Planet

Beaaant!! Sorry Planet wrong answer, try again please.

Any thoughts that those who post here represent the majority of cachers is waaay off base! The only thing posted in the fourms represent is those who post in the forums, who are a very small percentage of all cachers.

Thanks for keeping an open mind SylverStorm, it does seem to be a rare item on these fourms.

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

September 25, 2003

hide your own caches. leave other people's caches alone to be found as intended by the owner. -harry

5.3k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
I just question whether the forums and emails are enough to give one an accurate representation of the community's opinion as a whole.

Another brilliant illustration of the narcissistic mindset of the pirates: since they enjoy stealing other peoples' stuff, anyone who objects must surely have something wrong with them. And the overwhelming antipathy expressed toward pirating the in forum cannot possibly be reality.

quote:
Furthermore, I think its clear that anyone who supports, or even elusively comments positively on "pirating," in the forums, has to be prepared for a world of grief.

Even better! An invocation of the famous "martyr" argument, one of the most self-serving and fallacious out there. Roughly, it goes like this: "They persecuted Galileo, and he was right. I feel persecuted, so I must be right, too."

quote:
Originally posted by Trogdor!
Any thoughts that those who post here represent the majority of cachers is waaay off base!

See above. The dismissal of massive evidence counter to your own worldview is a classic sign of narcissism.

quote:
Thanks for keeping an open mind SylverStorm, it does seem to be a rare item on these fourms.

Yet another superb example; once again, since the pirates enjoy stealing stuff, anyone that objects to having stuff stolen must have something wrong with them. In this case they are not "open-minded."

I suggest that people go back through these threads and marvel at the rationalizations and dismissal of other peoples' feelings exhibited. It's unusual that a pathology is so clearly exposed.

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Trogdor!:
Any thoughts that those who post here represent the majority of cachers is waaay off base! The only thing posted in the fourms represent is those who post in the forums, who are a very small percentage of all cachers.

I don't see it as being way off base to believe that the view of a small percentage may be some indication of the view as a whole. Comedy buzzer sound effects aside I don't believe the original poster you quoted was saying that the majority of cachers post on the forum. Just that the majority who did post were opposed to non-consensual piracy.

I'm not an expert on statistics but that would seem to make sense to me. Is there any reason to believe that a view that is overwhemingly held by forum posters would *not* also be similarly held by the caching community at large?

Is believing that to be the most likely scenario a sign of a closed mind? I'm open to arguments to the contrary... anything that suggests the majority of cachers support piracy.

If the majority of forum posters loved the idea of cache piracy I would have no trouble believing that view would also be held by the majority of non-forum based cachers.

________________________

What is caches precious?

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

quote:
Furthermore, I think its clear that anyone who supports, or even elusively comments positively on "pirating," in the forums, has to be prepared for a world of grief.
Roughly, it goes like this: "They persecuted Galileo, and he was right. I feel persecuted, so I must be right, too."

Actually, I think the meaning was more like, "They persecuted everyone who said 'pirate' without saying 'I hate them', so I'd better keep my mouth shut or I'm doomed.

quote:
I suggest that people go back through these threads and marvel at the rationalizations and dismissal of other peoples' feelings exhibited. It's unusual that a pathology is so clearly exposed.

Respectfully, as I know your comments are made with the idea that you're protecting a game you love, I'd ask you to do the same - please go back and read this thread. We are not rationalizing or defending anyone who makes any change whatsoever to any cache without the owners' permission. We are trying to come up with ways to improve the game, to add some interesting new elements, without changing it in the least for those who don't like them.

SylvrStorm

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
I just question whether the forums and emails are enough to give one an accurate representation of the community's opinion as a whole.

Another brilliant illustration of the narcissistic mindset of the pirates: since _they_ enjoy stealing other peoples' stuff, anyone who objects must _surely_ have something wrong with _them_. And the overwhelming antipathy expressed toward pirating the in forum cannot _possibly_ be reality.

Sooooo... I'm narcissistic because I have no evidence that the forums are an accurate representation of the thoughts of geocachers as a whole?

Um, okay. Actually, you're right, I friggin LOVE me.

Fizymagic, the discussion I was having was about the source of proof to Jeremy's statement, not about the "rightness" or "wrongness" of pirates per se.

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon: Furthermore, I think its clear that anyone who supports, or even elusively comments positively on "pirating," in the forums, has to be prepared for a world of grief.

Even better! An invocation of the famous "martyr" argument, one of the most self-serving and fallacious out there. Roughly, it goes like this: "They persecuted Galileo, and he was right. I feel persecuted, so I must be right, too."

Soooo... you think I said that the pirates' actions were "right" because I think people who like them might be afraid to post?

Um, okay. I still friggin love me.

Clearly, you like to use your big brain fizzymagic, but I would ask that you try to keep your criticism of what I said somewhere within the realm of what I actually commented on.

Thanks.

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team AshandEs:
I don't see it as being way off base to believe that the view of a small percentage may be some indication of the view as a whole. Comedy buzzer sound effects aside I don't believe the original poster you quoted was saying that the majority of cachers post on the forum. Just that the majority who did post were opposed to non-consensual piracy.

I'm not an expert on statistics but that would seem to make sense to me. Is there any reason to believe that a view that is overwhemingly held by forum posters would *not* also be similarly held by the caching community at large?

Is believing that to be the most likely scenario a sign of a closed mind? I'm open to arguments to the contrary... anything that suggests the majority of cachers support piracy.

If the majority of forum posters loved the idea of cache piracy I would have no trouble believing that view would also be held by the majority of non-forum based cachers.

Team AshandEs, what you've said makes sense to me too. I wouldn't have a difficult time believing a view held by a majority of forum posters may also be held by a majority of non-forum posters, but I simply haven't seen the evidence that, a Jeremy said, a majority of geocachers (or forum posters) dislike all forms of pirating.

There's been no poll. There's been no tallying of votes from forum posts that I know of. And there are quite a few pros and cons that are vocal on the subject, so, for me, its hard to get an accurate read.

Anyway, my point in contributing to this forum was simply to discover what Jeremy was basing his statement on.

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by SylvrStorm:
We are not rationalizing or defending anyone who makes any change whatsoever to any cache without the owners' permission. We are trying to come up with ways to improve the game, to add some interesting new elements, without changing it in the least for those who don't like them.

Putting "pirate" in the subject line probably wasn't the best idea.

A post talking about adding new and interesting elements to the game that didn't mention pirates might not have got derailed so much.

I've got no problem with caches with a twist and enjoy reading other people's ideas on the subject. I quite like some of the ideas you've suggested. But when the discussion is an extension of such an emotive issue people will always gravitate back towards that issue, whatever you intentions were.

Edit: I should point out that I realise was guilty of this myself. for which I apologise.

Edit 2: VVVVVVVVV I think the good pirate/bad pirate thing is part of the problem. The ideas would probably be clearer for a lot of people if you adopted another name for them. I saw "stealth caching" mentioned somewhere? Or something else like that... might just lead to more productive discussion. I think some people might feel (and perhaps rightly so) that legitimising some form of "good piracy" also, to an extent, would serve to legitimise "bad piracy".

________________________

What is caches precious?

[This message was edited by Team AshandEs on September 25, 2003 at 12:49 PM.]

[This message was edited by Team AshandEs on September 25, 2003 at 12:53 PM.]

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
... but I simply haven't seen the evidence that, a Jeremy said, a majority of geocachers (or forum posters) dislike all forms of pirating.

Before people jump all over this and say that Pan must be blind if he hasn't noticed all the negative posts about pirating - remember he said "all forms of pirating". Yes, it's clear that there are many people in these forums who don't want their caches stolen. I'll even go out on a limb and say I don't think there's ever been a cacher who wanted their cache to be stolen. That's the bad pirates. This thread is about the good pirates, who don't do anything without permission.

I don't think there's been any clear indication that this specific form of pirating has a strong weight of cachers against it, forum posters or otherwise. And as I've said repeatedly, if you don't like it, don't participate. You won't be bothered. No harm, no foul. Continue caching as always.

5.3k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
Clearly, you like to use your big brain fizzymagic, but I would ask that you try to keep your criticism of what I said somewhere within the realm of what I actually commented on.

Umm, Pan, I did. I commented on your inability to accept overwhelming evidence against your own view of the world.

It's blindingly obvious that the vast majority of cachers think that pirating is unacceptable. That you cannot see that is worthy of marvel.

September 25, 2003

quote:
We are trying to come up with ways to improve the game, to add some interesting new elements, without changing it in the least for those who don't like them.

Too soon, too soon, too soon.

Let's hear an apology from the pirates first for all the bother they've caused.

Ode to a Pigeon: Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You Lookin' at Me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?! (b. katt, 7/14/03)

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:
It's blindingly obvious that the _vast_ majority of cachers think that pirating is unacceptable. That you cannot see that is worthy of marvel.

Fizzymagic, as I said a couple of posts up, I agree that it's clear that the heavily discussed bad pirating is, well, bad. In this thread, we have heaved out the bad aspects, and are looking for ways to introduce the non-bad aspects into valid variants of geocaches. If you don't understand what I mean, please read my earlier posts to this thread. If you have read them and still don't understand, please ask for clarification - I want everyone to understand what this discussion is really about.

If you do understand and still think that this form of 'pirating' is unacceptable to the majority of cachers, please elaborate. The whole point is to make it acceptable, so if there are issues that have been missed, please bring them to light.

Thanks,

SylvrStorm

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:
...overwhelming evidence against your own view of the world...

...It's blindingly obvious that the _vast_ majority of cachers think that pirating is unacceptable....

Again, are these comments based strictly on forum posts?

And exactly what is my view of the world as you see it?

Beside, I mean, the obvious fact that I love myself.

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

5.3k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by SylvrStorm:
If you do understand and still think that _this_ form of 'pirating' is unacceptable to the majority of cachers, please elaborate.

It's not "pirating" when the cache owner agrees. The term does not apply. Applying it merely confuses the issue.

This new so-called "variant" is just the cache owner being a jerk to the finders, but that is already a part of the game now.

September 25, 2003

quote:
Too soon, too soon, too soon.

Let's hear an apology from the pirates first for all the bother they've caused

Exactly!

If I want to hide a cache with a "twist" I'll twist it myself.

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:
... but that is already a part of the game now.

Ouch.

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by enfanta:
Too soon, too soon, too soon.

Let's hear an apology from the pirates first for all the bother they've caused.

Hmmm - an interesting perspective. I agree that would be nice, but realistically it's not going to happen. I think there are (at least) two categories of pirates here.

First are the pirates who get their jollies from ruining other peoples' fun. We're not going to get an apology, and this discussion won't change their behaviour.

Second are the pirates who honestly never meant any real harm, but were somewhat misguided (in some cases very misguided) as to what other geocachers would see as fun. We're not going to get an apology (anyone who admitted to it now would be eaten alive), but we might be able to offer them more acceptable alternatives for their creative tendancies. An apology would be nice, but in lieu of that maybe we can at least move future 'piracy' into an acceptable format.

Then there are people who have never even dreamed of pirating a cache, but who are intrigued by some of the ideas being presented here.

It's these last two groups that this discussion is for. And for that reason, I don't believe it's too soon. In fact, the sooner the better, before someone else decides to go and apply his own unacceptable version to some unsuspecting cache.

No, it's not going to solve the entire problem, but it may alleviate it somewhat, and might just add a fun new dimension to geocaching in the process.

SylvrStorm

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:
It's not "pirating" when the cache owner agrees. The term does not apply. Applying it merely confuses the issue.

I know there's a lot of baggage with the term 'pirate'. I'm still open to suggestions for other names, but what else do you call it when everything about it has a pirate theme?

quote:
This new so-called "variant" is just the cache owner being a jerk to the finders, but that is already a part of the game now.

Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by this. Do you think finders won't like finding a cache like this? What do you see as the problem?

SylvrStorm

September 25, 2003

quote:
Second are the pirates who honestly never meant any real harm, but were somewhat misguided (in some cases very misguided) as to what other geocachers would see as fun. We're not going to get an apology (anyone who admitted to it now would be eaten alive), but we might be able to offer them more acceptable alternatives for their creative tendancies. An apology would be nice, but in lieu of that maybe we can at least move future 'piracy' into an acceptable format.

Then who needs 'em.

Let's find someone with some ethics and help move their cause along.

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Lightfoot:
Then who needs 'em.

When somebody does something that's not acceptable to society, there are a few choices:

1) Punish them (beyond our ability in this case)

2) Ignore them (which does nothing to stop the problem from recurring)

3) Rehabilitate them (which makes the 'us' side bigger, and the 'them' side smaller)

I think option 3 sounds good. And since we don't know who these people are, about the best we can do is set a good example of how some of their ideas can fit into our game.

SylvrStorm

September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by SylvrStorm:

quote:
This new so-called "variant" is just the cache owner being a jerk to the finders, but that is already a part of the game now.

Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by this. Do you think finders won't like finding a cache like this? What do you see as the problem?

I think his argument is that the typical finder hunting for a cache may expect certain things when she gets there.

1. That the cache will be there.

2. That there will be a log to sign.

2. There will be prizes (no matter how basic) to trade for.

If a finder finds her way to a cache, and its "plundered," and the cache owner agreed to it, AND didn't inform the finder of what to expect... THAT might be an example of the cache owner being a jerk to the finders. If I'm interpreting right.

As far as cache owners being jerks to finders now, there's probably a couple hundred dozen examples of that.

Pan

Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, ***hole. - Unknown

[Edit: Is a couple hundred dozen a number? - P]

2.1k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
I think you're misguided, and you don't listen.

Time to break out the conversational GPS, McKee? lol

quote:
A majority of geocachers consider piracy of any kind childish and stupid.

Really? I missed that e-mail...you know, the one that reached a majority of the geocachers asking for their response to pirating as a game variant...

In the last 7 days, there have been 37255 new logs written by 9326 account holders.

Even if 933 different people have chimed in on this thread, in the logs, and sent an e-mail to you concerning pirating activities and their feelings about it...that'd STILL only be 10% of those who have been active in the last week alone! These forums are a horrible representation of "all cachers", I really would hope that you (of all people here) could keep that perspective on things.

EDIT: I figured I'd give some justification for why this is the case, since one of the posts I just read asked why the forums are not a valid sample of the population. As an introduction, I was a part of a college-wide USENET group for random discussion a few years ago. It was fun to sit back and hurl profanity and even argue fairly well-thought conjectures with the dozen or so other people actively participating on the group. One day, I found out that not only did more people than that read there, they discussed what was written and who was involved and what they thought of those people. It opened my eyes, there I was...oblivious to the fact that my little world where invectives rained and reigned supreme was being observed by a larger body than originally thought. And beyond those people, no one else on campus knew or cared that any of this was going on. With that personal story under my belt, I see these forums in a very similar light.

Aside from getting into the personal reasons for each of us to be here or reading which posts we choose, we all have the commonality of wanting to get our opinion heard or at least publicized on whatever issue led us to the forums and kept us here typing. There are probably hundreds of geocachers who read here just to see what's going on. There are thousands who don't even know that the forums exist. Of those thousands, if they don't live near a pirate OR haven't visited or watchlisted a pirated cache if they do live near one, they don't even know pirating exists. Since the most I've heard of organized pirating is about 20-30 caches localized to about 4 locales, I'd imagine a tremendous number of the 9000+ geocachers active in the last 7 days don't even have an opinion on piratecaching.com. These forums are not an accurate assessment of what opinions others may have on pirating as a game variant.

[/EDIT]

quote:
My slow writing is to indicate you tend to race over the parts that don't suit your argument.

...while you, on the other hand, just ignore them... (see below)

quote:
There are bad aliens and good aliens. There are bad muggles and good muggles. There are bad pirates and ... oh wait. I guess there aren't good pirates.

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

[This message was edited by ju66l3r on September 25, 2003 at 02:03 PM.]

2.1k · September 25, 2003

quote:
It seems that part of the fun for the pirates is the surprise factor. You never know what cache will be 'hit' or when it will happen. Requiring permission doesn't need to change that. All a pirate needs to do is get permission from half a dozen prolific cache-placers, and he could have a list of 50 caches open for 'plundering'. Permission is granted, yet still nobody knows where he's going to appear next. Granted, this aspect may make it less likely to work in cache-sparse areas, but even then there's potential.

I just wanted to highlight this passage. I didn't even think of that as a way to keep the surprise in the game! That's awesome...getting multiple permissions (even if it's to single caches from each hider) maintains an element of surprise that would be lost otherwise.

Very cool, Sylver, very cool.

--

http://www.nedevett.com/gollum.swf

2.5k · September 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
I've read quite a bit on this topic, and you're right, I don't have access to the kind of information Jeremy has access to, but my point was, do you think he's polled all geocachers, or even enough geocachers to know that a majority think... etc.

I have not been polled on this subject nor have I weighed in on the forums about whether it is childish and stupid.

Perhaps enough geocachers have emailed and posted already that no matter what my opinion is, it wouldn't matter. In other words, if 50% plus one geocachers felt this way, then any other opinions are considered irrelevant. If Jeremy says so, it must be so.

Using this same new math, it's obvious the majority prefers stats, but where are they?

[This message was edited by cachew nut on September 25, 2003 at 02:22 PM.]

Can we salvage anything good from this pirate issue?

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