Members only. Does it increase membership?

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Some questions for those who have placed members only caches. Have you heard of a case where people have decided to purchase a premium membership in order to hunt members only caches? Do you think that a large amount of MOC's in an area would convince people to do so? And finally, if an area was primarily members only caches, do you think this would serve to stifle activity?

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Hmm, I just placed a MOC, but my reasoning was it was something special and I didn't want non-members pludnering it. I would like to see more MOC's. Frankly this is the only MOC I've seen or that I've noticed.

Firehouse16 & Code3

"Dave, Teresa & the 2 kids"

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Please explain more about the AUDIT LOGS? <where the heck is the all ears emoticon?>

Sngans

Sacred cows make the best hamburger....Mark Twain.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Audit log allows you to see who has visited the cache page and give the time and date. It was pointed out that a premium member can get all of the info for the cache page via pocket query without ever visiting the page. This would be a way to render the audit log useless for "busting" pirates who have premium accounts. The only solution would be to have a list of people who include their cache in a PQ, but that is likely to include every premium member in your state. Still, many cachers do visit the page online, and it is neat to see some of the people who might be planning a visit.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Snoogans:
Please explain more about the AUDIT LOGS? <where the heck is the all ears emoticon?>

Audit logs allow you to see who has looked at your cache, how often, and when the last time was.

It's an incredible tool that can be used to determine when you are being antagonized by a cacher somewhere who hits the refresh button on every one of your MOC pages 30-50 times within a 15 minute period.

/rant

It's okay, they actually make a pill for that problem...

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:

quote:
Originally posted by Snoogans:
Please explain more about the AUDIT LOGS? <where the heck is the all ears emoticon?>

Audit logs allow you to see who has looked at your cache, how often, and when the last time was.

It's an incredible tool that can be used to determine when you are being antagonized by a cacher somewhere who hits the refresh button on every one of your MOC pages 30-50 times within a 15 minute period.

/rant

_It's okay, they actually make a pill for that problem..._

I'm learning....Thanks.

Sngans

Sacred cows make the best hamburger....Mark Twain.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Anyway, back to my original question.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

No.

I joined to contribute to the site. I stayed for the pocket queries.

MOC doesn't thrill me one way or the other by itself. Though I do like that Audit log.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
No.

I joined to contribute to the site. I stayed for the pocket queries.

MOC doesn't thrill me one way or the other by itself. Though I do like that Audit log.

Hehe, no to all three questions?

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
No.

I joined to contribute to the site. I stayed for the pocket queries.

MOC doesn't thrill me one way or the other by itself. Though I do like that Audit log.

Hehe, no to all three questions?

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Now that I'm a member it's rather a moot point for me. So No to only the it didn't cause me to join. Yes to if everthing was mostly MOC's I probably would especially if having more members let them lower the membership fee.

Not sure about stifle activity.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Now that I'm a member it's rather a moot point for me. So No to only the it didn't cause me to join. Yes to if everthing was mostly MOC's I probably would especially if having more members let them lower the membership fee.

Not sure about stifle activity.

lower fees?!?!?! they are near rock bottom as it is. any lower and it will cost them to proscess the money

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:
Some questions for those who have placed members only caches. Have you heard of a case where people have decided to purchase a premium membership in order to hunt members only caches?

Never in my experience. Most people join to support the site, and to be able to get PQs.

quote:
Do you think that a large amount of MOC's in an area would convince people to do so?

No, and I doubt that situation would occur. In this area, at least, MOCs are very unpopular. When a new cache is approved, someone usually posts a FTF within 12 hours. An MOC can sit for a week before anyone goes after it. People put out caches hoping that others will search for them, not ignore them. I put out this cache as a MOC, and was going to convert to an open cache after 3 members had logged it. In the middle of a heavily populated area, only 1 person logged it after 5 days. I went ahead and opened it, and had half a dozen finders in short order. MOCs are a failed experiment, IMO. It's a simple matter to get coordinates w/o being logged, so they only exist as a sort of "prize" for members. And even that seems to be a failure.

quote:
And finally, if an area was primarily members only caches, do you think this would serve to stifle activity?

See above.

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Like RK, I joined to contribute to a site I think is worthy of support. The PQ's were a strong incentive to stay once I saw what they could do.

MOC's don't seem to matter too much in our area. The MOC's get nearly as much traffic as the non-MOC's. Have to agree with PS that it doesn't seem to encourage membership.

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Well because of you guys I made my MOC cache un-MOC'd, can I say that? LOL

Firehouse16 & Code3

"Dave, Teresa & the 2 kids"

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I am new to geocaching and have not even been able to get a GPS yet. I was pretty shocked to see that a bunch of the caches that I had on my watch list are suddenly MOC. People can do what they want with their caches, but I found this very uncool especially since I had spent 2 days on my lunch hour trying to puzzle out one of them without a GPS to guide me.

At some point I did plan on joining the site just to give back a little, but as it is I am scrounging to get the cash for a GPS.

-Midnight

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I have not done any members' only caches -- perhaps will try a micro next week and see how many visits it gets. Many of the geocachers down here in south Florida are members.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I've done a few MO caches, but never placed one. Do I see a need to do so? Not really. I got my membership because I saw the reason to contribute. The PQs have become beneficial to me, especially using Watcher as well as a few other utils to create my PDA downloads. I prefer the html formatting over .pdb files by a longshot, but don't always have time to put together the custom download in Watcher. Thanks for AZGeocaching.com, I'm able to pull a .pdb in very short order and get the download ready.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by MidnighToker:
I am new to geocaching and have not even been able to get a GPS yet. I was pretty shocked to see that a bunch of the caches that I had on my watch list are suddenly MOC. People can do what they want with their caches, but I found this very uncool especially since I had spent 2 days on my lunch hour trying to puzzle out one of them without a GPS to guide me.

At some point I did plan on joining the site just to give back a little, but as it is I am scrounging to get the cash for a GPS.

-Midnight

Sorry to hear that, it's probably due to the cache plundering going on in the northeast.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:
Sorry to hear that, it's probably due to the cache plundering going on in the northeast.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Yes, I did some digging and the original cache that I was referring to is on the most recent plundered list.

I REALLY hope that my stun gun accidentally runs into this jackass.

-Midnight

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
Audit logs allow you to see who has looked at your cache, how often, and when the last time was....

Does it tell you how long they looked at the page? or just when they 'logged' onto the page??

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I would think that once the temporary file loaded, that's pretty much it.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I've never done a members only cache and I think that they should be abolished. When you start to seperate members from non members you take on an elitest attitude and start to become the "country club crowd". I became a member because I am in a position that I can afford it without it straining anything else in me life. Are we too start denying people access to a FREE site just because some people have issues. I hope most people here both members and non members agree with this and vote to get ride of MO caches.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Sorry to take this a bit off topic, but how do you get the Audit Logs for your caches?

I haven't poked around the site in the last few days so maybe this is a new feature for members???

Can somebody post or email me?

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kealia:
Sorry to take this a bit off topic, but how do you get the Audit Logs for your caches?

I haven't poked around the site in the last few days so maybe this is a new feature for members???

Can somebody post or email me?

Add me to this list. I'd like to know how to do this as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bob - can ya beer me now?

Sandy - bite me

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I'm not sure how it is done, but I think it is only available on MOC's.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
I'm not sure how it is done, but I think it is only available on MOC's.

Yes, its only for caches made MOC, and has been available since the... class? was developed. But Ive never had an MOC, nor do I have plans to place one, but I wanted to know more about how it worked.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

In the upper left hand corner of the (members only) cache page there is a link to the audit log. You could always change one of your regular caches to MO to have a look at it, then change back, although someone would have to view it in order to have a log. In fact, I think your own visits to the page are logged as well.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Welch I wasen't pointing fingers, I was just stating my opinion. If you thought I was pointing to you I'm sorry because I wasen't. It is my opinion that any perception of class is a bad thing. I myself have been on both sides of the issues and can see how it can get quickly out of hand, I just don't want to see that happen here. I enjoy this site and activity to much to see it split up between paying and non paying members.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

Thanks for the info.

Don't see many MOC around here and none of mine are either.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

i did a moc once, only cause i didnt want the muggles to go hunting it. I KNOW they wont stumble upon it.

i dont do MOC cause i feel caching is for everybody. maybe sometime ill do a moc then public it after a few weeks

i have the membership mainly cause i like my gpx pocket querrys

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Xitron:
Welch I wasen't pointing fingers, I was just stating my opinion. If you thought I was pointing to you I'm sorry because I wasen't. It is my opinion that any perception of class is a bad thing. I myself have been on both sides of the issues and can see how it can get quickly out of hand, I just don't want to see that happen here. I enjoy this site and activity to much to see it split up between paying and non paying members.

Xitron, I didn't think you were pointing fingers, at me, or otherwise. My post was just to A) confirm your previous post, answer Kealia's question, and C) explain my prior question. Otherwise, it might have been confusing why I was asking 'how' the audit works, already knowing when it works.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I don't think there is anything wrong with offering some additional benefits to contributing members. If MOC's were abolished, I'd still arrange to renew my membership. It is a small contribution for the hours of fun I experience caching. Not that I needed to join to do so, but I feel a lot better knowing that the resources available here are in some part due to my small contribution. I don't look down upon people who can't join, or don't want to. I suspect most members feel the same way. There are a few little benefits, pocket queries being the most useful of them, but none of them offers any distinction, or "elite" status. Elitism is probably more related to find counts and the length of time people have been involved.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

I created one members only cache, I did so because I wanted to limit the number of people who would hunt the cache. This was to reduce the amount of damage that would be caused by geocachers tromping about. It seems to have worked as there have been about half as many visitors to that cache.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:
I don't think there is anything wrong with offering some additional benefits to contributing members.

I sometimes wonder if offering extra (in the form of MOCs) to those who have paid memberships, should be considered as withheld?

or as a bonus (by all members).

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

WHEW, glad I didn't offend you Welch, I sometimes offend someone without meaning too. I do stand by my orginal statement that MOC's should be abolished. No matter how you look at it it is placing one group above another. If you place a MOC you are saying "those who do not pay to support this do not get the same privilages that we do". I think that is wrong on so many levels that it would take me hours to explain it. If you state I'll do a MOC for a few weeks then open it up, this is what I hear. "I'll let the elite do it and when they are done with it I'll let the rest of the riff raff have a go". This maybe just my opinion but I think others may share it.

Posted October 5, 2003 · October 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by welch:

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:
I don't think there is anything wrong with offering some additional benefits to contributing members.

I sometimes wonder if offering extra (in the form of MOCs) to those who have paid memberships, should be considered as withheld?

or as a bonus (by all members).

By the same logic, monetary contribution could be looked at as withheld (or a bonus).

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Posted October 6, 2003 · October 6, 2003

I've been a non-paying member for two years. In the beginning there was a lot more flaming and "look down your noses" by paying members when the concept of payment was more of a "charity" contribution" type thing. There were no additional features for paying members. I believe management added fuel to the fire by trying to have it both ways - saying they were in business and unwilling to reveal their financial picture but encouraging donations at the same time. I took a lot of flack and insults from other cachers when I called it that way that I felt was uncalled for; probably the main reason I haven't become a paying member. (ah, pride goeth before the fall, but I'm weakening!)

However, once Jeremy really got serious about making this a self-supporting profit making business, the "holier than thou" posts have pretty much disappeared. People for the most part recognize this is a business, albeit friendly, internet site.

The site needs to make a profit to continue in business and I think Jeremy has done a pretty good job balancing keeping it "free" at the same time. The possibility of alternative sites I'm sure helps keep some of this site free, but like I said they've done a good job in balancing it with the need to make a profit.

There's enough here to keep the casual cacher plenty busy without having to pay. But as they gain more interest, they have the opportunity to buy the "improved" version. Not unlike many "free" "lite" software packages that are offered but you got to buy the complete package to get all the frills.

I don't see anything wrong with that as long as you know in advance of getting started. If Jeremy keeps up with the "frills" I might break down an start paying too!

Alan

Posted October 6, 2003 · October 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
No.

I joined to contribute to the site. I stayed for the pocket queries.

MOC doesn't thrill me one way or the other by itself. Though I do like that Audit log.

For the record, I concur. I think we only have three in our whole state. Generally they are placed by people who have been burned by looting in an effort to reduce the chance for occurance. I think some people think it reduces the probability of plunder. Noone I know's ever gone out and gotten a membership for MOCs. Used to be just to support the site, then PQs came along and a membership became a "must have"

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Assimilating golf balls - one geocache at a time.

Posted October 7, 2003 · October 7, 2003

After re-reading, I decided that my reply was pretty much off target, so I deleted it. Sorry if anyone had already read it.

[This message was edited by btouch on October 07, 2003 at 07:01 AM.]

Posted October 7, 2003 · October 7, 2003

I've watched the controversy regarding memberships for awhile now, and finally decided to weigh in. Presently, I'm not a Premium member, but only for personal finacial reasons, and had planned on becoming one as soon as I was able. However, the MOC situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and will probably actually "prevent" me from becoming a Premium member.

It smacks of elitism, and comments such as "I didn't want non-members pludnering it" and "I didnt want the muggles to go hunting it" only reinforce that notion. That tells me that because I haven't paid money to the site (never mind the money spent on GPSr, backpack, supplies, Geocaching.com merchandise, etc.), the elite now consider me a "muggle" who is plundering, rather than a fellow cacher on a budget? Even worse is the fact that non-members do contribute greatly to this sport/game by placing caches, but are now being locked out of certain caches because they haven't paid? What makes a MOC better than a normal cache? Is there champagne and cigars for the FTF? A country club membership, perhaps? What makes a Premium geocacher better than any other cacher?

In my opinion, Premium members should gain access to enhanced features on the site, such as PQs and the like, but the cache sites/coodinates/hints/logs/etc should be open to all cachers, even those who are struggling financially. Untill that happens, I doubt that I will become a premium member, whether I can afford it or not.

We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing!

Posted October 7, 2003 · October 7, 2003

I don't think people will become members just for MOCs as long as there are plenty of free caches available.

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

And may no Admin bricks fly your way

Posted October 7, 2003 · October 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Doc-Dean:
I don't think people will become members just for MOCs as long as there are plenty of free caches available.

I agree. I became a member soley for the Pocket Queries. We actually have one local cacher who not only has converted all of his caches to MOC, but is providing offset coodinates that require emailing him to get the correct coordinates. Talk about paranoid! It will be interesting to see how many people actually visit those caches.

__________

Gorak

Posted October 8, 2003 · October 8, 2003

4x4van, don't worry it's not personal. Most people just don't want anyone stealing their caches. It's annoying to have your caches disapear whether you are a paid member or not.

There are only two solutions once you have had enough. Members Only Caches or to pull them all.

Pulling them all is the 100% solution. You will never have another cache stolen again. Going MOC is a way to keep participating so at least some people can enjoy your caches.

There are a lot of people who are not premium members who contribute. Thanks for your post. It rather balances out what appears to be a great cache contribution.

Posted October 9, 2003 · October 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
Most people just don't want anyone stealing their caches. It's annoying to have your caches disapear whether you are a paid member or not.

I agree completely, but I also believe that very few caches are plundered or stolen by people who come to this website to find the coodinates. If someone is taking the time and effort to come to the website, getting coodinates, then using a GPSr and hiking out to locate caches, it makes more sense that they would be engaging in the game, not plundering/stealing (pirates not withstanding, of course). That's an awful lot of work to go through for the purpose of stealing nearly worthless "trinkets", and theives generally are not into "work" unless there is a significant payoff for them. While I may be way off in my assessment, I believe that most stolen/plundered caches are more than likely due to muggles accidentally stumbling upon them, which means that the only people Premium members are really locking out of their caches are the non-paying but still contributing geocachers.

If I had a high number of my caches getting plundered, I would start to re-think how/where I am placing them and perhaps adjust that to minimize the possibility of muggles, rather than locking out legitimate cachers. I think that would have a bigger effect on plundering/stealing than making it a MOC.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong in my assumptions. I guess I'm still considered an amateur cacher (33 finds/1 placed), but the one cache I have placed, Fuller Falls, has been very well received by all who have visited, and I don't want to lock anybody out. If it gets stolen or plundered, then I'll try to learn from that, move on, and continue with the game, both seeking and placing. But I will never place a MOC, even if I become a Premium member. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Man, I will say this: The civillity on these forums is really refreshing, to say the least. It's nice to be able to discuss things and offer differing views without being attacked, insulted, or otherwise disrespected. Long live Geocaching!!

We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing!

[This message was edited by 4x4van on October 09, 2003 at 07:51 AM.]

Posted October 9, 2003 · October 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Gorak:
We actually have one local cacher who not only has converted all of his caches to MOC, but is providing offset coodinates that require emailing him to get the correct coordinates.

Who approved those, and why? Is the cache owner paranoid or attempting to keep others from engaging in behavior that s/he engaged in?

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on October 09, 2003 at 08:28 AM.]

Posted October 9, 2003 · October 9, 2003

I may be way off on this, but here goes anyway....

If it is the pirates that are going out of their way to plunder the caches, they took the time and effort to come in here and gather all of the info, then went out to find the cache to plunder. Since they are so determined to go through with this, what makes anyone think that paying a few buck for a membership will stop them? If anything, I would think that the MOC would just give them better targets.

Like I said, just my thoughts and I could be way off.

-Midnight

Posted October 9, 2003 · October 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by MidnighToker:
If it is the pirates that are going out of their way to plunder the caches, they took the time and effort to come in here and gather all of the info, then went out to find the cache to plunder. Since they are so determined to go through with this, what makes anyone think that paying a few buck for a membership will stop them? If anything, I would think that the MOC would just give them better targets.

-Midnight

Good point. I would tend to agree with that assessment (although I could be way off as well). It would seem to me that "pirates" would find MOC's an even more attractive target than normal caches, simply based on their "exclusivity"<sp?>. So that means that pirates can gain access to MOC's, and muggles can accidentally gain access to MOC's...and the only people being denied access to them is "regular" cachers! Yup, there's that darned taste again!

We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing!

[This message was edited by 4x4van on October 09, 2003 at 11:02 AM.]

Posted October 9, 2003 · October 9, 2003

What is the difference between charter members and premium members? (No, this is not a joke question, just wondering)

Posted October 9, 2003 · October 9, 2003

It's really the same thing, as far as features go. Charter members are usually the first ones to sign up so they get bragging rights.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

Posted October 10, 2003 · October 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ChiefPig:
What is the difference between charter members and premium members? (No, this is not a joke question, just wondering)

Premium members download cache information to their PDAs. Charter members inscribe cache information on papyrus scrolls.

Members only. Does it increase membership?

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