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Say NO to War...


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IRAQ is an acronym for those that seem to forget 9/11 when it comes to an attack on America.

Iraq Ran And Quit: icon_redface.gif

 

My Son who is in the Navy sent this to me and i would like to share it with you. It has some real good advice.

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Sound Advice from One Who Has Been There

 

A Little Advice About Peace and War from an Israeli

 

By Naomi Ragen

 

For all those of you who think that only war poses risks for innocent people, I would like to tell you of our experiences here in Israel.

 

Nine years ago, we in Israel, encouraged by our own Peace-Nowers, signed a Peace Accord with a known terrorist, pulled our army out, handed him land and then sat around singing songs and painting doves because we were tired of fighting. And this is what happened: he brought in thousands of weapons, taught children to kill and be killed, set up bomb factories, and encouraged religious leaders to preach suicide bombing as a way to reach paradise. And we looked on and said: He doesn't mean it. It's just talk. And anyone who said out loud: 'There is no peace, just preparation for war from one side,' was drowned out and vilified, called a war-monger and a traitor, told they had killed Yitzchak Rabin and told to shut up and let the party continue.

 

And then our buses started blowing up, and our discos, and our wedding halls, and our Seder nights, and our Bar Mitzvahs and restaurants. Babies were blown up or shot in their carriages along with their grandmothers. Our country dug hundreds of graves. Thousands wound up injured, crippled for life, sitting in wheelchairs, and burn units, brain damaged on life-support; their lives destroyed.

 

And still the peace-nowers continued to preach: War is not the answer. There is no military solution.

 

At that point, we understood we'd been had. We started to speak out against them, to vote them out, to pick up our guns, and retake the areas we'd left, uproot the arms caches, the bomb factories, hunt down the terrorists...And then the bombings got less...and less...and less. Every day, our soldiers fought the war, and every single day, new innocent lives were saved.

 

But because we didn't have courage to speak out at the beginning, our lives were forever changed. Every place we go is now under armed guards. Half our restaurants closed down. The center of Jerusalem is like a ghost town. Our people are unemployed. No tourists come. Our children live with fears no child should have to endure. Thousands of families are in mourning. All because we listened to the appeasers, the peace-nowers. All because we let ourselves be intimidated.

 

We let them make us think we were wrong, and they were right, because we let them hijack the word 'Peace" until it became meaningless. Ten million British citizens signed a petition for 'peace' in 1941. As a result Neville Chamberlain signed a pact with Hitler. He declared it meant "Peace in our time." And ten million people turned out to be wrongheaded idiots. And these ten million idiots brought disaster down not only on the heads of their own children but also on the heads of children whose parents understood the truth, but had lacked the courage to fight for it.

 

And this is what I learned from living in Israel and I would like to share with you, to prevent your countries from suffering as mine has: Anyone who tries to prevent a just war against terrorism, is on the side of the terrorists, an accomplice. No, they don't have an opinion that needs to be respected. No, they don't have an equally valuable point of view. No, no, no. They are as dangerous as the terrorists themselves, and will get you and your children killed just as fast.

 

As for the morality of war, the Bible tells us when someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first. As King Solomon said: " To every thing, there is a season, a time for peace, and a time for war."

 

And one more piece of wisdom. Those who condemn the war against terror aren't in favor of peace. They are in favor of a one-sided war in which the innocent can't defend themselves cleverly enough to win.

 

Tahosa - Dweller of the Mountain Tops.

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I'm all in favor of our troops coming home, but only after they've been allowed to do the job right this time. We were pulled up short last time, if you'll remember, and now we need to finish it once and for all.

 

Criminal, I hope your friends come home safe, along with mine. Hang in there buddy.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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I know, and can understand, the desire by some to avoid this war. What I don’t think they realize is the gravity of the whole WMD potential. The vast majority of the Americans who died in the twin towers died a merciful death in comparison to what nerve or blood agents can do. The horror and carnage that you’d get to see, in living color, if something like that were released in LA or NYC is beyond the comprehension of the average citizen. These are not painless, quick acting chemicals. So as much as I fear for my brothers in the sand, at least they have the training and equipment to handle the threat.

 

True, it has nothing to do with geocaching. Moderators should feel free to close it out if they desire.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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But I know what you mean. My son railheaded his M-3 Bradly Saturday. He asked if we want him to place a cache in the Royal Palace in Baghdad. Gotta send it to him quick!!!

 

Hang tough pal. Tough times for old soldiers.

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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quote:
Originally posted by Tahosa:Sound Advice from One Who Has Been There

 

A Little Advice About Peace and War from an Israeli

 

By Naomi Ragen

 

For all those of you who think that only war poses risks for innocent people, I would like to tell you of our experiences here in Israel.

 

>SNIP<

 

As for the morality of war, the Bible tells us when someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first. As King Solomon said: " To every thing, there is a season, a time for peace, and a time for war."

 

And one more piece of wisdom. Those who condemn the war against terror aren't in favor of peace. They are in favor of a one-sided war in which the innocent can't defend themselves cleverly enough to win.


 

Only someone who has faced the horrors of war can understand how it really is. But it is those same people who realize what is at stake, and are again willing to do it. Why is that?

 

I have seen war. I know what they had. I do not suppose they have less today than they had 12 years ago. Do a search on the Russian Frog 7 and VX, and see what we faced back then. Now imagine that in LA, NY, DC, or Chi-town. It is the job of the military, the government, and the president to stop that from happenning. Like the man said, you are with us or you are against us. Although I don't like it, I realize that the threat must be neutralized. I will support it in any way I can.

 

My thanks and respect to those who served before me, those who served with me, and especially to the ones you took up my weapon and allowed me to retire. Freedom isn't free!

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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quote:
What I don’t think they realize is the gravity of the whole WMD potential.

 

I would like to emphasize the word "potential" in this situation. Where's the proof??

 

http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/stories/schrdingers_iraq.shtml

 

And where's the proof that Saddam Hussein is connected to al Qaeda? Yes, he's a madman and a brutal dictator. But if we go after him, what's to keep other countries from following our lead? What becomes of Pakistan and India? Israel and Palestine? What kind of a precedent are we setting?

 

And meanwhile, where the hell is Osama bin Laden? The guy we KNOW is responsible for the attacks on the Twin Towers and we seem to have conveniently forgotten about him. Is he dead? Alive? Somewhere in between??

 

If you well and truly believe that attacking Iraq is going to "win the war on terrorism" (an impossibility, btw. Lead by the same folks who brought you the war on drugs and poverty and how are we doing on *those* fronts?) then please do stand up and say so. But I hope you've thought out all the consequences for *everyone* on the planet before you do so.

 

Never send a soldier to create peace. It's not what they're trained for.

 

X is for X, and X marks the spot, On the rug in the parlor, The sand in the lot, Where once you were standing, And now you are not.

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quote:
Originally posted by enfanta:

quote:
What I don’t think they realize is the gravity of the whole WMD potential.

I would like to emphasize the word "potential" in this situation. Where's the proof??


The proof can be found here and here and in the fact that Iraq has not shown any substantive co-operation with UN Resolution 1441. If Iraq had actually disarmed they would be eager to prove it to the world.

 

Churchill said to Neville Chamberlain after his despicable compromise with Hitler in Munich. ‘You have rejected war and chosen peace –but you shall have war.’ Peace only comes when both sides have peaceful intentions. Saddam Hussien’s intentions have never been peaceful. Security and independence is not something people vote for like a plebiscite. It takes as Churchill said, blood, sweat and tears to remove tyrants and dictators.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

geol4.JPG

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

 

The proof can be found http://www.ukonline.gov.uk/featurenews/iraqdossier.pdf and http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm and in the fact that Iraq has not shown any substantive co-operation with UN Resolution 1441. If Iraq had actually disarmed they would be eager to prove it to the world


 

And I had decided you were one of the folks that I wouldn't care to associate with on the list. However, in the big picture, your last post here has changed that. I do not know if you have ever served your country or not. In any case, "I" thank you for your support. It is nice to see that others get it. You do alot to help offset Peter Jennings.

 

Thank you sir,

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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Naomi Regan is a very prolific and seemingly knowledgeable writer, and I agree with her sentiments in this article; but I'm curious where she found this instruction:

quote:
Originally by Naomi Regan:

...the Bible tells us when someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first...


If it was intended as a paraphrase or interpretation of Ecclesiastes 3:8 (which she "sort of" quoted), it's an "interesting" one, to say the least.

 

Worldtraveler

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Its the leadership not the followers who should be dealt with. The kids are not to blame!!

 

Once we get out troops in country then reactivate the Phoenix Program. It worked in the 60's, and it would work again. Chances are once we are in there, the attitude of the general population will probably change once the fear of oppresion is lifted from their shoulders.

 

Tahosa - Dweller of the Mountain Tops.

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quote:
Originally posted by Cache Canucks:

...between 'their kids' and your own:


 

Ugh! There nuthin' I hate more than to hear people say "Do this" or "Do that" or "Don't do this" or "Don't do that" for the sake of the children. 'For The Children' is about the wimpiest way to make any argument of any sort.

 

Like here in Dallas last month, the city unilaterally - despite business owner's opposition and lack of citizen support - banned smoking in all restaurants AND BARS! (Can't smoke in Hooter's 'cause of our precious children!)

 

I love my kids, and I will fight for them if I have to. I will protect them with my own life. I will guard them. I respect others' children, too. The grief ANY father or mother over the loss of their child - whether by cancer or by bomb - is a tragic grief.

 

Unfortunately, these precious Iraqi children will be slaughtered by Hussein when they grow up if they so much as offer an inkling of autonomous thought that would be in opposition to his own liking.

 

One thing that the media fails to mention and the peaceniks fail to realize is the BILLIONS of dollars to develop weapons of efficient destruction. We build weapons that destroy targets and little more.

 

If any kids get killed in this conflict, the majority of the responsibility will lie with the Iraqis for positioning them at the targets.

 

One last rant is the whole notion of peace. Peace is NOT the absence of conflict. Peace IS Freedom.

 

---------------

burnout.gif Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

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I am in total agreement with the original image of this thread. Please do not use my opinion as flame bait, for I am entitled to it, as others are to theirs.

 

The USA does more to aid foreign countries in a year then any other country has done in their entire history. It is a crime that any other country (Germany, France, and Russia in particular) have the GALL to be against us. It is time to disband the UN and NATO, and take care of the problem efficently, and without getting any of our soldiers killed.

 

Will cache for food.migo_sig_logo.jpg

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I’m sorry now that I started this whole thread, it wasn’t meant to debate the war. It was supposed to be irony, the subject line vs. the content.

 

When I attended aircrew survival training they sent us into a simulated POW camp. They showed us mind games you couldn’t imagine. One of the more eye-opening lessons was when the enemy camp commander finally offered us food. He went into a long and loud tirade about how our commanding officer was basking in the lap of luxury, eating as much as he wanted, etc. He told us our commanding officer didn’t even care that we hadn’t eaten, that he was concerned only for himself. We were ready to kill that CO. We mumbled amongst ourselves, said disparaging things, and our collective glares could (should) have melted him in place. But it was a lie! the worst part was we believed the lie! In actual fact, our CO had been fighting since day one to get us food and better treatment, to his own peril. He had to agree, in the end, to allow the enemy commander to present the lie, without dispute, in order for us to eat.

 

My point is this. If our President is willing to send me/you/your friends/children to fight, kill, and possibly die, he has good reason. For anybody to say there’s no proof simply because they haven’t seen it is absurd. Who the F do you think you are?! That decision is never made lightly, ever. The only proof you’ll get is the thousands of Americans screaming and dying while they bleed from every orifice of their body, slowly and painfully. Don’t think for a second the news organizations aren’t figuring out how to bring you to footage.

 

No, I don’t want to go to war. (My retirement date is 1 April and I’m already out-processing.) No, I don’t want to see anybody get nuked, children or adults. You watch the pictures of these kids on a screen; I’ve been to many of those countries and have interacted with those people. But the system of government that I’ve sworn to defend believes there is a threat, a real, dangerous, and hideous threat to our whole way of life. (Look how much has changed since 9/11.) We are offering that threat a painless way out. If they don’t take it it’s to their own peril.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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I suspect that threads like this would sound a lot more rational if participation was limited to people who have friends and loved ones in harms way, or are in harms way themselves. As my father used to say, "The only principles a man really stands for are the ones he stands up for when it really costs him something."

 

Though, I must admit, I'm a big fan of biblical precedent for moral actions. For example, how about that Lot fellow offering up his two (supposedly) virgin daughters for the amusement of an angry mob (Genesis 19)? It is handy to know that "Do what you want to the girls but leave me alone!" is the kind of conduct that leads to one being saved by direct, divine intervention.

 

Seriously, one can justify almost anything with scripture. Many Christians use Sodom and Gomorrah as biblical precedent for persecuting homosexuals (though the anti-homosexual bent is largely translation and interpretation). Yet, I don't hear many of those same Christians citing the same verses as a precedent for drunken incest (when your wife is a pillar of salt, what's a man to do?)

 

For what it is worth, I do not understand the administration's urgency regarding Iraq. North Korea, Iran, and extreme groups like Bin Laden's would seem to be more pressing concerns than a secular tyrant like Sadam (remember, being a nice, self-absorbed, non-religious, greedy tyrant is why we gave him money and arms before '91).

 

That said, I don't have any sympathy for the French. True, politicians seldom get a chance to toady to big business and curry public favor at the same time, but enough already. Everyone concedes that the only reason that there is any progress with inspections is the threat of the US fist. Defuse the fist, and inspections are useless. But hey, as long as the cheese monkeys get their oil...

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:

"...Like here in Dallas last month, the city unilaterally - despite business owner's opposition and lack of citizen support - banned smoking in all restaurants AND BARS! (Can't smoke in Hooter's 'cause of our precious children!)..."


Anyone capable of coming up with that kind of analogy is truly out-of-touch with the enormity of what is being discussed here. Radioactive fallout is an entirely different kind of 'second hand smoke'.

 

quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:

"...Unfortunately, these precious Iraqi children will be slaughtered by Hussein when they grow up if they so much as offer an inkling of autonomous thought that would be in opposition to his own liking..."


I agree. The man needs to go ...but vaporizing Baghdad (again, the lead post in this thread) can't be the answer.

 

quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:

"...If any kids get killed in this conflict, the majority of the responsibility will lie with the Iraqis for positioning them at the targets..."


There's no hiding from a mushroom cloud. If you "...Nuke Iraq...", the horrific civilian deathtoll will reach far beyond those who happen to be in the immediate proximity of any target ...and the responsibility for that will rest squarely on the shoulders of those who opted to jump to a 'nuclear solution'.

 

ontario1.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Cache Canucks:

I agree. The man needs to go ...but vaporizing Baghdad (again, the lead post in this thread) can't be the answer.

 

There's no hiding from a mushroom cloud. If you "...Nuke Iraq...", the horrific civilian deathtoll will reach far beyond those who happen to be in the immediate proximity of _any_ target ...and the responsibility for _that_ will rest squarely on the shoulders of those who opted to jump to a 'nuclear solution'.


 

I think we are jumping a little farther than Crminal meant when he posted the "original" post. I understand his sentiment while at the same time understanding he cannot have meant we should just nuke Iraq and all come home. The original post does however express the frustration of those of us who have been there before, and have sent friend, sons and daughters back again, and wish there was a quick solution to the problem: thus the image.

 

We all know a nuclear bombing of Iraq is not the answer, but it would make quick work of the problem, nes pa? (Yes, we also know it would CAUSE many other problems). I believe, and Criminal is more than welcome to tell me I'm full of camo crap, that it was intended somewhat "tongue in cheek" and for our display along with all our other posters and such that show force options we wish would solve the problem while knowing it wouldn't.

 

With all that said, if it came down to nuking Iraq, or allowing Iraq to spray our troops with Anthrax or Sarin gas, sorry, I opt on the side of our troops and the maximum fireball.....

 

JMHO.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

 

Though, I must admit, I'm a big fan of biblical precedent for moral actions. For example, how about that Lot fellow offering up his two (supposedly) virgin daughters for the amusement of an angry mob (Genesis 19)? It is handy to know that "Do what you want to the girls but leave me alone!" is the kind of conduct that leads to one being saved by direct, divine intervention.


 

You forgot the context of that story. Lot did not offer up his daughters to save himself. Two angels of the Lord were staying with Lot to warn him of the coming destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The mob wanted Lot to 'bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them'(Gen. 19:5). Lot refused and offered his daughters instead.

 

...and now you know the rest of the story.harvey>

 

--

Not Necessarily Interesting News

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