laser travel bug

3.1k · October 30, 2002

A cacher I know who does not frequent these forums just came to me with a question: he picked up a travel bug that, according to him, is a Class-III laser (and this guy would know). He feels this is too dangerous an item to leave in a cache -- a class-III laser can cause eye damage, even indirectly -- so he can't in good conscience place it in a cache. He was considering replacing the laser with a pocket flashlight and sending the laser back to the owner. What do you think?

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

October 30, 2002

Sounds good to me, it is pretty unfortunate that there are people out there who do not take the safety of others into account.

But who knows, maybe the TB owner doesn't even know about this potentiol danger and wonders why he has trouble now reading the coordinates off his GPS. [] Hopfully this is not the case though.

So Long [] Eagleflyby

1.5k · October 30, 2002

How about letting Natural Selection just take its course? Maybe that would teach people to not let their kids rummage through caches unsupervised. And if an adult is dumb enough to be shooting lasers into their eyes, then they deserve what they get. There is too much "protecting people" as it is. Perhaps we ought to add padding to all the sharp corners of the many ammo box caches out there. We wouldn't want someone falling and stabbing themselves with the edge of an ammo box, now.

How about instead of trading items on this guy's bug, you could just print out a little advisory tag that he could attach to it?

quote:
Laser pointers are effective tools when used properly. The following considerations should be observed when using laser pointers:

Never look directly into the laser beam.

Never point a laser beam at a person.

Do not aim the laser at reflective surfaces.

Never view a laser pointer using an optical instrument, such as binocular or a microscope.

Do not allow children to use laser pointers unless under the supervision of an adult.

Use only laser pointers meeting the following criteria

Labeled with FDA certification stating "DANGER: Laser Radiation" for Class 3a lasers or "CAUTION: Laser Radiation" for Class 2 pointers.

Classified as Class 2 or 3a according to the label. Do not use Class 3b or 4 products.

Operates at a wavelength between 630 nm and 680 nm.

Has a maximum output less than 5 mW, the lower the better.

The Toe Pages

5.9k · October 30, 2002

If he had a problem with it he should have left the whole thing in the cache. You can buy a (class III) laser pointer in almost any general store, no ID required. I think he should put the travel bug and all its parts back where he found it.

Is he going to remove ammo cans next? You can get a nasty pinch if you're not careful closing it.

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

October 30, 2002

I don't have a problem with the laser. I don't have a problem with a pocket knife.

99% of cache hunters are responsible. Most kids hunting are usually supervised by their parents.

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

5k · October 30, 2002

I agree with RT that the laser pointer is an appropriate item. But if he really, really wanted... how about just removing the batteries or something?

Jamie

1.5k · October 30, 2002

Good point about pocket knives in caches... I've seen them before, and I actually traded for a baby knife in the last cache that I found. I grabbed it because I needed to cut some twine for something the other day, and I didn't have anything handy - but when I took the knife, not once did it come into my mind to be outraged that someone would be so careless as to leave a knife in a cache where people could be injured by it.

2.6k · October 30, 2002

Is a class III laser some kind of industrial strength cutting tool?

If it's just a key chain laser pointer, then he has no right to take it out of circulation.

Preparation, the first law to survival.

Mokita!

1.5k · October 30, 2002

Yeah, a class 3 laser is just a regular pointer device that you can find in any office supply store. And, I guess I might be a little less biased against lasers having had LASIK vision correction.

DETAILED LASER CLASS INFORMATION

And, actually, I had it 3 different times. Had it done once, then had to get an "enhancement" on my right eye, and then an "enhancement" on my left eye.

Enhancement is their term for "correcting our earlier mistake" I think... although, they insist that "it is better to undercorrect than overcorrect, because it is harder to fix that" Yikes.

The Toe Pages

5k · October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:
And, I guess I might be a little less biased against lasers having had LASIK vision correction.

Uh-oh! That makes you ineligible for the astronaut corps!

Jamie

3.1k · October 30, 2002

quote:
If he had a problem with it he should have left the whole thing in the cache.

But that's pretty much the same as placing it in a different cache. His view of it as being dangerous is most likely the reason he took it.

quote:
Explain the class III laser. Is it a normal, key chain laser pointer?

I don't know, sorry. All I got was "Class III laser". Referring to something by the most technical term possible would be familiar ground.

quote:
...how about just removing the batteries or something?

That was my thought, after I posted, and probably what I'll recommend, along with a notice.

Thanks!

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

8.9k · October 30, 2002

From http://www.ied.edu.hk/sci/safelas.htm

Class I Laser

A Class I laser is considered to be incapable of producing damaging radiation levels and is therefore exempt from most control measures or other forms of supervision.

Class II Laser (Low Power)

A Class II laser emits light in the visible spectrum (400-700 nm), and eye protection is normally afforded by the normal human aversion response to bright radiant sources. It may present some potential for hazard if viewed directly for a long time.

Class III Laser (Medium Power)

A Class III laser may be hazardous under direct mirror type reflection viewing conditions, but the diffuse reflection is usually not a hazard. A Class III laser normally do not cause fire.

Class IV Laser (High Power)

A Class IV laser is a hazard to eye and skin from the direct beam and from diffuse reflections. A Class IV laser can also be a fire hazard.

===========

Ain't Google grand?!?

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

"Therapy is expensive but bubble wrap is free."

8.9k · October 30, 2002

And further...

quote:
Class III and class IV lasers shall be operated only in areas specifically designed for laser operations. The facility shall be enclosed room or laboratory area with walls that confine laser radiation to this area. Access to the area during laser operation requires the permission of the responsible operator.

Spectators or visitors shall NOT enter controlled laser areas during laser operations unless prior permission has been obtained.

If the expert inidcated that this is indeed a Class III laser, I would think it would NOT be appropriate for a cache, regardless of the batteries or not. I just checked on a pretty powerful laser pointer that we use in my office for our LCD projector, and it is a Class II. I can't imagine a Class III could be bought at a convenience store.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

"Therapy is expensive but bubble wrap is free."

October 30, 2002

But keep them in the cache.

Even though I still think it's overkill to even remove the batteries, I think it is wrong to detatch the batteries from the pointer altogether.

Remember, this isn't a trade item, it's a travel bug.

On those cheapo laser pointers, the cost to replace the batteries can exceed the cost to buy a new pointer.

I respectfully suggest leaving it as is.

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

5.9k · October 30, 2002

Mine is a class IIIa, it's a pointer. They sell for less than $10 in gas stations. A friend of mine bought his in Thailand, dumb@*** thought it was a pen light and shined it straight into his eye. Fortunately he suffered NO effects from it.

The main point: EVERYTHING is dangerous! Stop trying to protect everyone from themselves and mind you own business!

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

1.5k · October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Mine is a class IIIa, it's a pointer. They sell for less than $10 in gas stations.

Ditto. Mine is also class 3 - and I got mine in an ARCADE on the boardwalk in Atlantic City, NJ. It was a prize in the display case that kids or adults could claim if they had enough tokens, won from various gaming machines in the arcade.

It is a generic looking POS laser pointer, with like 25 different tips - but yes, it is class 3 as well. The thing eats those little button batteries like crazy though... takes like 4 of them. I think I've chucked that thing into the junk drawer, never to be found again. (Like I wanna buy button batteries for a friggin laser pointer... but anyway...)

3.1k · October 30, 2002

I'll have to ask him whether this this is class IIIa or IIIb. I looked them up, and there is a significant difference in their hazards. I assume this is a regular laser pointer, but I don't know that.

I should clarify that the person has pretty much already decided to not replace the travel bug as-is. I posted this hoping to find some other solution that he could live with while preserving the bug.

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
The main point: EVERYTHING is dangerous! Stop trying to protect everyone from themselves and mind you own business!

Which is the theme of the Desolation Wilderness thread. Which should really be everyone's theme. Wheter it's a Bible (which some cacher's remove from other caches) to laser pointers, to the whole cache itself, if it ain't yours, don't mess with it!

Of course, I don't think that a fully loaded .357 is appropriate, but I hope most cachers can actually make wise decisions.

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

2.6k · October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:

Of course, I don't think that a fully loaded .357 is appropriate, but I hope most cachers can actually make __wise__ decisions.

Would you trade up?

Preparation, the first law to survival.

Mokita!

October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Dinoprophet:
I posted this hoping to find some other solution that he could live with while preserving the bug.

By definition, any alteration is no longer 'preserving the bug'.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to see his cache police charter.

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
That would be a cool find, although what would you trade?

Hmmm... Maybe a Gerber Tool???

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

5.9k · October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:
Originally posted by Criminal:
The main point: EVERYTHING is dangerous! Stop trying to protect everyone from themselves and mind you own business!

Which is the theme of the Desolation Wilderness thread. Which should really be everyone's theme. Wheter it's a Bible (which some cacher's remove from other caches) to laser pointers, to the whole cache itself, if it ain't yours, don't mess with it!

Of course, I don't think that a fully loaded .357 is appropriate, but I hope most cachers can actually make __wise__ decisions.

---------------

OMG! Somebody agrees with me!

I was starting to think I was the only one who preferred to stay out of eveybody else's beezwax.

True about the .357, as much as I'd like to come acroos one in a cache.

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

October 30, 2002

You guys all talking about "natural selection" and it would be dumb to shine in their own eyes. But what about other people? My older sister has permanent eye damage because of some stupid kid at our state fair (the year they were popular). The way it happened noramal adult supervison would not have stoped it unless the laser was not there at all.

I think the laser would be fine if there was a way to keep in responsible adult hands (maybe placeing it in more difficult caches).

Wyatt W.

The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.

20.7k · October 30, 2002

If his conscience won't let him place it in a cache, why doesn't he just mail it back to the owner? The owner can make the decision whether to alter the bug, send it back out as is, or replace it with a different item.

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand.

3.1k · October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by VentureForth:
By definition, any alteration is no longer 'preserving the bug'.

"Preserving" in the sense that it will remain a laser pointer (or whatever).

As I said, the guy has told me he plans on replacing the item. So I pose a new question: should *I* mind *my* own business and let him swap out the bug, should I try to change his mind, knowing he's as unlikely to change his view of it as anyone else, or should I propose some alternative? If an alternative, then what (which was my original question, now a secondary question)?

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

1.5k · October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by phantom4099:
But what about other people? My older sister has permanent eye damage because of some stupid kid at our state fair (the year they were popular). The way it happened noramal adult supervison would not have stoped it unless the laser was not there at all.

Well, I feel bad for your sister... but I'm not sure how removing a laser travel bug from a cache relates to some kid shining a laser into her eyes and causing permanent damage. Just as easily as I could hurt someone with a laser pointer, I could take a pencil from a cache and stab them through the arm. Actually, that would probably be easier.

If adult supervision is what you are talking about, then this comes back to the parents' responsibility for keeping an eye on their kids when a family goes cache hunting. If a kid grabs the laser from the cache and shines it into someone else's eyes, it isn't the fault of the cache - or the fault of the laser.

But anyway - I'm losing track of what I'm debating here... taking the laser off the bug tag and replacing it with a flashlight is silly, and if I were the bug owner I'd be a little bit annoyed - especially if I wasn't contacted BEFORE any changes were made.

Dino: If you feel the laser is harmless, I'd let him know how you feel - and that you'd probably leave the bug as-is, or at most, removing the batteries. Chances are, someone down the line would add batteries again though anyway. But tell him what you think, and if he is interested in what the rest of us think - let him know that too.

The Toe Pages

October 30, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:
From http://www.ied.edu.hk/sci/safelas.htm

_Class IV Laser (High Power)_

A Class IV laser is a hazard to eye and skin from the direct beam and from diffuse reflections. A Class IV laser can also be a fire hazard.

===========

I guess this also makes magnifying glasses too dangerous to be trade items.

--

wcgreen

Wendy Chatley Green

5.9k · October 30, 2002

I agree with that dancing dadgum banana. Even though I can't stop dancing right along with it, it is the most reasonable advice.

I was never saying YOU should mind your own business. I was (an am) saying that he should never have removed it from the cache if he had a problem with it. Now that he has, do what toe said. A laser ain't nowhere near as dangerous as clamping down the lid on an ammo can and discovering one of your testicles got caught inside.

If your house catches afire, and there ain?t no water around,

Throw your jelly out the window; let the dog-gone shack burn down.

**Huddie Ledbetter**

1.6k · October 30, 2002

Hmmm... Mine has a Class IIIa warning label on it as well. It's Epilog Legend 40w Laser Engraver. It uses both a diode laser and a CO2 laser. Maybe it's classified only as a IIIa because of the interlocks that prevent it from operating when the cabinet is open. The diode laser is on regardless if the cabinet is open or not.

I would dare say if you shone the CO2 laser into your eye somehow, eye damage will be the least of your worries.

Back to the thread, I think the laser "expert" is overreacting. If he's concerned with safety, make a warning note and attach it to the bug and if there are an even number of batteries, turn half around so it won't work. Simple.

CR

-- Insert pithy aphorism here --

1.6k · October 30, 2002

Crimal: "as dangerous as clamping down the lid on an ammo can and discovering one of your testicles got caught inside."

dadgum it! I spewed my drink!

CR

-- Insert pithy aphorism here --

3.1k · October 30, 2002

Thanks all. I didn't expect this to get so heated, but that's healthy. Hopefully you won't hear about this in some future thread:

Cacher stole my laser!

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
A laser ain't nowhere near as dangerous as clamping down the lid on an ammo can and discovering one of your testicles got caught inside.

Now *that* would be Darwinism in action!

"It doesn't take a nucular scientist to pronounce 'foilage'." --Marge Simpson

October 30, 2002

I think that you should talk him out removing it from circulation. You can get a class IIIa laser pointer at any arcade or dollar store or whatever. Due to size and cost reasons, I seriously doubt a Class IIIb laser would be on that TB.

Doug

laser travel bug

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