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Who should remove unapproved/archived caches?


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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

Suppose you stumble upon a new-looking cache with a paper that simply says, 'log your visit online'. You go home and check geocaching.com and find no caches listed in that area. You wait a few days just in case the approvers are behind. Still no cache in that area. You check known competing websites and find nothing. A month goes by, you go back and check on the cache. It's still there, and nothing appears different. Do you take it with you?

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness


 

No

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

Persoanl Responsibility exactly....with the current way the guidelines are then that's the way it should be. Not the repsonsibility of others to remove it.


 

Its not the responsibility of others until the cache owner gives up being responsible for their cache and someone else takes over from there. The key in this is that "the cache owner no longer assumes responsibility for their cache", there are many ways to determine this.

 

_http://www.mi-geocaching.org_

__________________________

Caching with a clue....


 

Agreed. What about a statement in the guidelines, rules or whereever a hider has to read to place a cache that says that or something similar to that as squirrel stated?

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

But, if it's considered abandoned, then it's not the right for someone to come up and take it. If they do, it's theft. However a land manager/owner has the right to remove the camping gear if it is deemed abandoned due to the nature that a campground is a business. Even if it not a campground and the side of a mountain, the land manager dept will have a policy in place to deal with the said items or will contact the authorities and/or legal help on the situation..


 

My man, you said it, not me icon_smile.gif

 

That is the point that Jeremy was making with MiGO working closely with the local unit managers in this area, how we interface with them to take care of these issues. Believe it or not these land managers like the fact that we take an active roll in what goes on with geocaching in our area. It means that picking up said "abandoned" trash by them is not necessary. One less thing they need to be concerned about right.

 

MiGO

__________________________

Caching with a clue....

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Another thought just hit my brain.

 

How about a section on this site for cache adoption listings? If you see a cache that may need adoption, list it on that section.

 

Would be an easy one stop shopping area folks could visit to see if there are any caches nearby that need soem TLC.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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We've been arguing on the basis of the VERY fine point of an archived cache where the owner cannot be contacted, and by the logbook is no longer used for any other purpose.

 

Everyone knows (or should) that just by leaving it out in public space there is some chance (greater or lesser depending on where hidden, but still the chance) that eventually someone will find it that decides not to play by the rules and removes it.

 

I think there is a far, FAR greater chance of the latter happening than an archived cache being wrongly removed.

 

I think that until we start to see the former types of caches, what we're doing at MiGo is the right thing. I'm sure the MIGO steering committe would adapt the rescue mission to these new conditions if it became apparent that something similar to your proposed new sport was developing in our area. To my knowledge, it is not, and what we have now is fine for what we're seeing in terms of abandoned caches.

 

I walk the Maze of Moments, but everywhere I turn to, begins a new beginning, but never finds a finish... -Enya, Anywhere Is

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quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

Agreed. What about a statement in the guidelines, rules or whereever a hider has to read to place a cache that says that or something similar to that as squirrel stated?


 

Not my place to answer that one but I think thats an unwritten rule that pertains to life in general and not just geocaching.

 

MiGO

__________________________

Caching with a clue....

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

Agreed. What about a statement in the guidelines, rules or whereever a hider has to read to place a cache that says that or something similar to that as squirrel stated?


 

Not my place to answer that one but I think thats an unwritten rule that pertains to life in general and not just geocaching.

 

_http://www.mi-geocaching.org_

__________________________

Caching with a clue....


 

In other words, I don't need someone to tell me that if I leave something behind that it will probably not be there when I come back, if I come back.

 

As a matter of fact that is a chance that we already take and accept when placing a cache. We call it plundering or say, my cache was plundered. It was stolen and we all know that it happens from time to time.

 

MiGO

__________________________

Caching with a clue....

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

But, if it's considered abandoned, then it's not the right for someone to come up and take it. If they do, it's theft. However a land manager/owner has the right to remove the camping gear if it is deemed abandoned due to the nature that a campground is a business. Even if it not a campground and the side of a mountain, the land manager dept will have a policy in place to deal with the said items or will contact the authorities and/or legal help on the situation..


 

My man, you said it, not me icon_smile.gif

 

That is the point that Jeremy was making with MiGO working closely with the local unit managers in this area, how we interface with them to take care of these issues. Believe it or not these land managers like the fact that we take an active roll in what goes on with geocaching in our area. It means that picking up said "abandoned" trash by them is not necessary. One less thing they need to be concerned about right.

 

_http://www.mi-geocaching.org_

__________________________

Caching with a clue....


 

No I never disagreed about the parts of the organizations working with the land managers and if that is a role that is decided between the land manager and organization, then fine. But the cache hider needs to be aware of that...

 

And not all areas have organizations. I know we do not have one here in New England...

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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Ok everyone...

 

stand up, stretch out, and let's cool off a bit!!

 

Bilder-

That's a good idea, but I wonder if it might be better thru the local orginizations. I know that some MI caches with MIA owners have been both formally and informally adopted by local cachers.

 

I walk the Maze of Moments, but everywhere I turn to, begins a new beginning, but never finds a finish... -Enya, Anywhere Is

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

quote:
Originally posted by umc:

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

Agreed. What about a statement in the guidelines, rules or whereever a hider has to read to place a cache that says that or something similar to that as squirrel stated?


 

Not my place to answer that one but I think thats an unwritten rule that pertains to life in general and not just geocaching.

 

_http://www.mi-geocaching.org_

__________________________

Caching with a clue....


 

In other words, I don't need someone to tell me that if I leave something behind that it will probably not be there when I come back, if I come back.

 

As a matter of fact that is a chance that we already take and accept when placing a cache. We call it plundering or say, my cache was plundered. It was stolen and we all know that it happens from time to time.

 

_http://www.mi-geocaching.org_

__________________________

Caching with a clue....


 

Sounds like common sense huh? Just like it's common sense that coffee is generally hot, otherwise it's normally ice coffee, but things do happen and people will challenge. As far as unwritten rules, they are worth the paper they are written on and they do no good if people don't know them.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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Woodsters got a question or two for ya.

 

Have you ever tossed a fresh logbook in a cache when you see that the current one is getting full?

 

You ever adopt a popular cache when the owner has quit maintaining it and has not logged into the site for over a year?

 

Do you check the online logs of caches near you every now and then to see if one is in need of repair?

 

Please answer these questions.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:

Woodsters got a question or two for ya.

 

Have you ever tossed a fresh logbook in a cache when you see that the current one is getting full?


 

No, none of the logbooks I've been too have been full or to that extent.

 

quote:

You ever adopt a popular cache when the owner has quit maintaining it and has not logged into the site for over a year?


Nope, never have come across that here. Would I, yes.

 

quote:

Do you check the online logs of caches near you every now and then to see if one is in need of repair?


 

Do I purposely check the nearby cache logs online to see if they need repair here locally? No, I do not. It hasn't been a problem here. Occasionally you may come across a torn ziploc bag and I have noted on logs before when I haven't had the means of replacing a bag, that the next finder may want to bring one with them. That was before I started carrying a backpack. Now I pretty much have general things to fix a cache with. But I do not seek out those caches to go and do that. As Jeremy stated, it's the owners responsibilty to do that. As I come across minor things, I will help out and nofitfy the owner if something is wrong. As far as replacing an owners container, it's not my habit (as i haven't done it), but if I knew who the owner was, I may.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:

I want names! surprise.gif


 

I did get an email from one Jeremy Irish to retreive THIS CACHE in response to my request to adopt it. I'll see if I can dig up that email for you.

 

I would advise whoever is on the ground retrieving caches to carefully check the cache before removing it. I'd hate for this activity to create a revenge plunderer.

 

CR

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Woodsters,

 

I am confused.

 

Are you against the removal of archived/abandoned caches by locals?

 

Your statements in this thread seem to be all over the place. You want to know what makes a cache abandoned? How about an owner who does not answer emails and has not logged onto the site for several months.

 

If a cache is abandoned, either offer to adopt it, find someone else to adopt it, or get permission from your approver to have it removed.

 

Simple as that.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:

Woodsters got a question or two for ya.

 

Have you ever tossed a fresh logbook in a cache when you see that the current one is getting full?

 

You ever adopt a popular cache when the owner has quit maintaining it and has not logged into the site for over a year?

 

Do you check the online logs of caches near you every now and then to see if one is in need of repair?

 

Please answer these questions.


 

ew ew, Yes to all of the above.

 

Oh, you weren't asking me, nevermind...icon_smile.gif

 

MiGO

__________________________

Caching with a clue....

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

Suppose you stumble upon a new-looking cache with a paper that simply says, 'log your visit online'. You go home and check geocaching.com and find no caches listed in that area. You wait a few days just in case the approvers are behind. Still no cache in that area. You check known competing websites and find nothing. A month goes by, you go back and check on the cache. It's still there, and nothing appears different. Do you take it with you?

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness


 

No you don't. There are at least three active listing sites. A few in development, and recreation boards that probably still list caches that pre-date gc.com. Local groups can and do sponsor a cache for a temporary reason etc. etc. etc.

 

You may not guess the right listing site, you may have found a temporary easter egg hunt cache and so on. You just don't know. But if you found it on accident odds are a muggle will will walk off with it soon enough.

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Let's get back to the original question, shall we?

If a cache is not approved on geocaching.com, an email is sent to the owner of the cache. Suppose they decide not to challenge the archiving of their cache and remain silent. They might or might not still visit the site. Should someone go check the coordinates to see if it was removed? If it is still there after, say 6 months, and has not been logged, should they remove it?

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

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quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:

Are you against the removal of archived/abandoned caches by locals?


The way that it is now, I'm against anyone removing caches that do not belong to them. That's what the discussion is about. All I ask is that the cache hiders be made aware ahead of time that their caches may be removed by admin or even someone designated by admin and that when they hide their cache, they agree to that. As far as the person designated by admin, I offered a suggestion of "reporters" to help in this along with checking on situations that under question on a cache in their local areas.

quote:

Your statements in this thread seem to be all over the place. You want to know what makes a cache abandoned? How about an owner who does not answer emails and has not logged onto the site for several months.


 

The question is not whether a person abandons a cache or not. One can not say that they have. They may have abandoned the listing service it is on, but to take matters in your own hands and remove a cache without approval from the owner is wrong.

 

quote:

If a cache is abandoned, either offer to adopt it, find someone else to adopt it, or get permission from your approver to have it removed.


The cache is not the property of website, Jeremy has stated that. Only the owner of the cache can say yes to someone else adopting it, the actual physical container that is. Of course someone can take a new container with new stuff inside of it and go along the same name and/or theme as the previous cache that is archived (removed from the list). Basically taking your own cache and using the listing information as your own, then yes. But if the older cache is still there and you didn't get permission from the owner to remove it, then place the new cache off of it somewhere. Of course there are going to be people that ddrop a cache and don't have anything to do with it. But there is nothing in place to say that if you do abandon it, that we reserve teh right to remove it. All I suggest is a statement saying such.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:

The ultimate responsibility for cache removal when the owner is not available is up to the local goecachers....


 

There are three areas of authority that merge here. The listing site. The cache owner. The landowner.

 

Local geocachers are not on that list until they are working on behalf of one or more of them, or are in fact one of them themselves. That limits what they should do to who they are working on behalf of.

 

I'm not saying that a local organization should not be pro-active in dealing with the problem. Situations are not always cut and dry. My son is no longer active on GC.com but I've been watching over his cache. For all intents and purpoes it looks abandoned, but it's not. He's moved on, likes owning his one cache and we check on it together. All is well in the universe. Also "Abandoning" thier GC caches and ignoring emails even though the cache is listed elswhere does not make the cache abandoned. You would have to have a TOS that deals with the situation by saying "if you list elsehwere you will archive here if you no longer wish to use our site" "If after due process we find your cache to be abandoned we will retrieve or adopt out your cache" Then the local group can do a CRM.

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quote:
If a cache is not approved on geocaching.com, an email is sent to the owner of the cache. Suppose they decide not to challenge the archiving of their cache and remain silent. They might or might not still visit the site. Should someone go check the coordinates to see if it was removed? If it is still there after, say 6 months, and has not been logged, should they remove it?


 

Maybe it got listed on another listing service? I don't know who'd use those crappy sites, but you never know.

 

---Stats banner used to be here.---

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

Let's get back to the original question, shall we?

If a cache is not approved on geocaching.com, an email is sent to the owner of the cache. Suppose they decide not to challenge the archiving of their cache and remain silent. They might or might not still visit the site. Should someone go check the coordinates to see if it was removed? If it is still there after, say 6 months, and has not been logged, should they remove it?

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness


 

No, why would someone go check? It never was approved right? Who's going to go check? The approver or someone he asks to? I think that's a big waste of time there. It's still the property of the person who placed it there. Whether or not geocaching.com approved it or not, it's not the property of geocaching.com . Even if it was not approved, it may be listed somewhere else. If it were I that placed the cache, I might of made my own listing up and a website. It might not get any visits, but it's my own game adn my own version.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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Without reading all the threads that are associated with this problem, I would like to submit my humble opion.

 

In my cache placements I usually do the research and everything involved with placing a Cache except the actual placement. Then I'll submit the Cache for approval, and if its approved, which is usually the case. Then I'll disable it and try and find it, a last minute check of the reality of the Cache. And if everything is ok then I'll plant the Cache.

I know this can cause several hikes and road trips but the final solution is a workable Cache.

 

If a Cache is left out there unattended and abandoned then I'll go to the regional approver and ask for some advice. And if need be I'll go pick it up, less we have some Geo Litter out there, that can ruin it for the rest of us. And if adoption or trash can is needed then it will be done according to the rules and advice of the PTB'S.

 

Tahosa - Dweller of Mountain Tops.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bull Moose:

Maybe it got listed on another listing service? I don't know who'd use those crappy sites, but you never know.


That's the point. Why would someone even check on the cache if it isn't approved because it could be listed somewhere else.

 

Caches that are archived are a different story. I recall hearing of a cache placed in Colorado that had never been visited in the year it was in place. An admin asked for volunteers to retrieve the cache as it was placed in a wilderness area.

 

Should the admins have the authority to remove caches like this? It could be listed somewhere else, the owner may have changed his email address, there are too many unknowns. In this instance, a request was made to remove the cache. The cache rescue team should find the cache and check for current activity in the logbook. If it hasn't been logged in (arbitrary number) 6 months, should they remove it?

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

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quote:
The question is not whether a person abandons a cache or not. One can not say that they have. They may have abandoned the listing service it is on, but to take matters in your own hands and remove a cache without approval from the owner is wrong.


 

The owner should then have the brains to archive the listing.

 

If you abandon a listing service, does it not make sense to remove your listing as well? Post a note "Cache listing has been moved to another website" and archive. Such a note would let others know the cache has not been abandoned.

 

Answering emails is another good way to let someone know you have not abandoned a cache.

 

When you place a cache you are taking responsibility for it. To ignore emails and not visit the site is irresposible. It is then up to locals to police thier areas and make sure such caches are not falling into a state of dissrepair.

 

Personal Responsibility!

 

What a concept!

 

Abandoned caches are a probelm up here. Folks move, they loose interest in the game after a winter, etc....

 

I for one will not sit back and watch caches fall apart. To do so is just as irresponsible as the person who abandoned the cache to begin with.

 

I will email, post notes, and let others in the area know if a cache appears to be abandoned. After so many tries at contact one can only assume that the cache has indeed been abandoned.

 

If you are unwilling to make the attempt at keeping your area clear of caches that have no owner, then maybe you need to quit complaining about it and find a new hobby.

 

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

 

Caches that are archived are a different story. I recall hearing of a cache placed in Colorado that had never been visited in the year it was in place. An admin asked for volunteers to retrieve the cache as it was placed in a wilderness area.


 

I'll look at it hypothetically, but assuming that the land manager asked geocaching.com to help them remove a cache from their park, we'd do our best to accomodate them and ask for volunteers to help.

 

Most reviewers are so because they were elected by their regional organization. Is this the case for this reviewer? I don't know since there are no specifics in the recollection.

 

smile.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

I agree that if a land manager contacts the listing service, that service should attempt to contact the cache owner. Failing that, the listing service should ask for a volunteer to remove the cache as requested.


 

I agree. That is normally what happens. When we get a call from Joe Park ranger we immediately deactivate the cache, notify the owner via email and post a log on that cache's page letting them know why it was deactivated. The email contains the contents of the email sent to us or whatever contact info is given over the phone.

 

At this point a) the cache owner responds promptly and handles it, or :) it sits as inactive with the note until the end of time. Most often the listing is removed by the owner and the physical cache is removed. Other times there are rescue operations by other cachers. In rare instances we put red text at the top of the page asking for the next finder to remove it. In this capacity we act as a messenger for the land manager.

 

smile.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

I recall hearing of a cache placed in Colorado that had never been visited in the year it was in place. An admin asked for volunteers to retrieve the cache as it was placed in a wilderness area.


 

Yes we have several of these drop and leave Caches here in CO, and they are listed on this site. I have also received an EMail from the owner stating he was from NYC. So we make every effort to find them and remove them. And some are so far back in remote and difficult country removal will be a several day event. And one of them has been adopted and replanted much to the benefit of the caching community.

 

And being a Cacher and a USFS volunteer I have to straddle the fence. If a Cache is in regular USFS lands then it can stay there, but if it winds up in a Wilderness Area then I will remove with or without the sanction of the owner or Geocaching.Com.

 

Tahosa - Dweller of Mountain Tops.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tahosa and Sons:

If a Cache is in regular USFS lands then it can stay there, but if it winds up in a Wilderness Area then I will remove with or without the sanction of the owner or Geocaching.Com.


 

This is perfectly reasonable. As the listing service I only ask that someone inform us of the removal so we can archive the listing. This will discourage fruitless searches for caches that are no longer there.

 

smile.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by Tahosa and Sons:

And being a Cacher and a USFS volunteer I have to straddle the fence. If a Cache is in regular USFS lands then it can stay there, but if it winds up in a Wilderness Area then I will remove with or without the sanction of the owner or Geocaching.Com.

 


 

Hmm... Then I won't tell you about the cache in a Wilderness Area that I saw was just approved.

 

Or for that matter the one I found not to long ago in a Wilderness Area. (You can figure it out yourself if you want.)

 

Nice that the USFS volunteers are setting Wilderness Area policy. Must be common, I had some volunteers on that particular trail tell me my dog has to be on a leash in the wilderness area. In fact, I made sure at the Ranger Station that he doesn't.

 

(If no caches is the official policy of the particular Wilderness Area in your neck of the woods then never mind, I'm just being a jerk. icon_wink.gif)

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:

 

The owner should then have the brains to archive the listing.

 

If you abandon a listing service, does it not make sense to remove your listing as well? Post a note "Cache listing has been moved to another website" and archive. Such a note would let others know the cache has not been abandoned.


That is the right of the listing service to remove the listing if the owner doesn't. That's not what the debate is about. It's about someone other than the owner physically going and removing a cache.

 

quote:

Answering emails is another good way to let someone know you have not abandoned a cache.


 

yes, but once again, we are not talking about that. We are talking about how a cache owner does not answer emails and has abandoned the service, not necessarily their cache.

quote:

When you place a cache you are taking responsibility for it. To ignore emails and not visit the site is irresposible. It is then up to locals to police thier areas and make sure such caches are not falling into a state of dissrepair.


Responsibility, true. Up to the local cachers. mmmmm somewhat disagree. It should not be left up to the locals to care for anothers cache. It's good gesture to do so, but they should not remove it. If someone wants to keep the cache going and wants to keep it alive. More power to them, but to remove it alltogther. nope.

 

 

quote:

 

Abandoned caches are a probelm up here. Folks move, they loose interest in the game after a winter, etc....

 

I for one will not sit back and watch caches fall apart. To do so is just as irresponsible as the person who abandoned the cache to begin with.

 

I will email, post notes, and let others in the area know if a cache appears to be abandoned. After so many tries at contact one can only assume that the cache has indeed been abandoned.

 

If you are unwilling to make the attempt at keeping your area clear of caches that have no owner, then maybe you need to quit complaining about it and find a new hobby.

 

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.


Well you were civil up until then. First of all, I think I was trying to offer a solution. Adding a simple statement to the TOS or on the hide a cache page stating simply that if after several attempts to contact you on problems with the cache and no word is received then the site may designate someone to remove the cache. It's that simple. But for someone to just up and go and take someones property, whether it appears abandoned or not, can cause trouble.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy:

That is normally what happens. When we get a call from Joe Park ranger we immediately deactivate the cache, notify the owner via email and post a log on that cache's page letting them know why it was deactivated. The email contains the contents of the email sent to us or whatever contact info is given over the phone.

 

At this point a) the cache owner responds promptly and handles it, or :) it sits as inactive with the note until the end of time. Most often the listing is removed by the owner and the physical cache is removed. Other times there are rescue operations by other cachers. In rare instances we put red text at the top of the page asking for the next finder to remove it. In this capacity we act as a messenger for the land manager.

 


 

I can go along with that scenario or situation. If the land manager asks that it be removed then request openly to do so. I still think that a statement in the TOS or hiding page would be beneficial over all that said your cache can be removed, blah, blah, blah, as stated before...

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
Originally posted by Bull Moose:

quote:
Originally posted by Tahosa and Sons:

... but if it winds up in a Wilderness Area then I will remove with or without the sanction of the owner or Geocaching.Com.

 


 

Hmm... Then I won't tell you about the cache in a Wilderness Area that I saw was just approved.

 

Or for that matter the one I found not to long ago in a Wilderness Area. (You can figure it out yourself if you want.)

(If no caches is the official policy of the particular Wilderness Area in your neck of the woods then never mind, I'm just being a jerk. icon_wink.gif)

 


 

IMHO: Approving of any geocache in a Wilderness Area is wrong. Period. Many times the Wilderness Area is also an ecologially sensitive area, and thus we should respect that. At least in the State of Michigan, we are doing everything in our power to abide by that simple tenet of being goos stewards of the land.

 

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Sorry Woodsters, but all this offering of solutions is useless unless you are willing to act.

 

By your own words, you are going to just sit there and not touch a cache that has been abandoned. It may not be you say.

 

If a cache has not been abandoned and the owner is just too lazy to relpy to emails or get out there and maintain the cache, then they should not have planted it to begin with.

 

It is that responsibility thing. There is no way around it.

 

This is a cache up here that I recently repaired. It has been abandoned and was plundered earlier this year. Should I have not repaired it? I could have left it as it was, smelling of urine (both rodent and human). It is not my property.

 

Yet I took the time and money to go out and repair the cache, replace the log book and add new trade items. The owner has had months to get out there and do something. He does get the emails, he simply does not care to respond.

 

You can apply the concept to a car. If you take your car and park it in a lot and leave it there what will happen? Sooner or later the car will be hauled off and impounded. How could you have prevented this? Perhaps if you showed up and moved the car a little, washed it, made sure the tires were not flat. Then it would not have appeared abandoned and removed. It is still your car, but by not acting in a responsible manner, you forfeited your rights to the car.

 

If someone wants to keep their cache from appearing abandoned, they had best be responsible for its upkeep and respond to emails.

 

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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Bilder, never said anything against anyone who has repaired a cache. I even stated that if a person wants to do that, then that's fine. It should not be expected. It is wrong to place a cache and expect others to care for it. A cache owner can't place the responsibility on the other cachers. I also stated that I take items to fix caches. I haven't had to, to date. It hasn't been a problem around here thus far. Once again this has to deal with people removing archived/unapproved caches. Not about taking care of them.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:

 

You can apply the concept to a car. If you take your car and park it in a lot and leave it there what will happen? Sooner or later the car will be hauled off and impounded. How could you have prevented this? Perhaps if you showed up and moved the car a little, washed it, made sure the tires were not flat. Then it would not have appeared abandoned and removed. It is still your car, but by not acting in a _responsible_ manner, you forfeited your rights to the car.


 

Not a very good analogy as first of all, nobody can just come and haul your car off. If they do, then it's theft. The owner of the lot however can have it hauled off. Just as a land manager can remove your cache. This is like apples and oranges....

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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So if I had removed the cache (which I nearly did it smelled so bad) then I would have been wrong?

 

The cache has been abandoned! If no one will care for it then why leave it there? Lack of maintenance will soon turn a cache into litter.

 

If your reasoning were to be followed, then soom land managers would be totally against geocaching. All those contianers that are never removed from the landscape after their use as a cache has past.

 

Like it or not, the reality is that it is up to the local geocaching community to take care of abandoned caches.

 

If not the locals, then who?????

 

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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quote:
Originally posted by Sandrich:

IMHO: Approving of any geocache in a Wilderness Area is wrong. Period. Many times the Wilderness Area is also an ecologially sensitive area, and thus we should respect that. At least in the State of Michigan, we are doing everything in our power to abide by that simple tenet of being goos stewards of the land.

 


 

Yeah, yeah, it all comes back to if you can find/plant a cache without destroying the landscape, or at least without doing more damage than a deer frollicking by. It has been debated in other threads endlessly.

 

My point is if a professional USFD Ranger says it's OK in Mt. Baker Wilderness, I don't want some civilian jacking the cache because they don't like it or because that's not the way it's done in the UP or CO.

 

---Stats banner used to be here.---

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quote:
Not a very good analogy as first of all, nobody can just come and haul your car off. If they do, then it's theft. The owner of the lot however can have it hauled off. Just as a land manager can remove your cache. This is like apples and oranges....

 

Then you better slap the cuffs on all those volunteers that clean up areas of trash each year, including abandoned cars.

 

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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quote:
Originally posted by Bull Moose:

My point is if a professional USFD Ranger says it's OK in Mt. Baker Wilderness, I don't want some civilian jacking the cache because they don't like it or because that's not the way it's done in the UP or CO.


Not all wilderness areas are managed in the same way. As long as the cache placement is consistent with local guidelines it should be allowed to stay.

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

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quote:
Originally posted by Tahosa and Sons:

...And being a Cacher and a USFS volunteer I have to straddle the fence. If a Cache is in regular USFS lands then it can stay there, but if it winds up in a Wilderness Area then I will remove with or without the sanction of the owner or Geocaching.Com...


 

If this is because you have the sanction of the USFS and have been given authority in this regard, great.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bull Moose:

quote:
Originally posted by Sandrich:

IMHO: Approving of any geocache in a Wilderness Area is wrong. Period. Many times the Wilderness Area is also an ecologially sensitive area, and thus we should respect that. At least in the State of Michigan, we are doing everything in our power to abide by that simple tenet of being goos stewards of the land.

 


 

Yeah, yeah, it all comes back to if you can find/plant a cache without destroying the landscape, or at least without doing more damage than a deer frollicking by. It has been debated in other threads endlessly.

 

My point is if a professional USFD Ranger says it's OK in Mt. Baker Wilderness, I don't want some civilian jacking the cache because they don't like it or because that's not the way it's done in the UP or CO.

 

---Stats banner used to be here.---


 

If the local unit mngr gave the cache his or her blessing, that's good enough for me. Sometimes I forget that each state/region has it's own issues to be handled by various methods and means.

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:

So if I had removed the cache (which I nearly did it smelled so bad) then I would have been wrong?


Yes, if you did not receive permission from the owner to remove it or from the land manager.

 

quote:

The cache has been abandoned! If no one will care for it then why leave it there? Lack of maintenance will soon turn a cache into litter.


It depends on the cache. If people as yourself routinely made sure the cahce was in good order, then it would not get to that point, spekaing from your practices you stated before.

 

quote:

If your reasoning were to be followed, then soom land managers would be totally against geocaching. All those contianers that are never removed from the landscape after their use as a cache has past.


I would go out on a limb and say there are many land managers that don't know anything about caches on their property and that alone is more of a problem(not getting permission) of not allowing them than litter.

 

quote:

Like it or not, the reality is that it is up to the local geocaching community to take care of abandoned caches.


 

Where does it tell me that I'm responsible for other peoples caches? I can go and find them and not even log them which many already do. You can implement an unwritten "it's a good deed" rule. It's funny that it does say to replace the cache back as you found it, but nothing about you should take care of it. Or for that matter, just implementing a simple statement online that if your cache is deemed abandoned that they reserve the right to remove it. Plain and simple. That's what the topic about. we can sit here all day and say a cache stinks, is abandoned and so on, but the fact is, just because a cache is abandoned doesn't mean it's rotting and smelly. Abandoned is abandoned no matter what state it is in. I'm not against removing abandoned caches, just against removing them when there is nothing that says they will be removed. Please read all the other topics that have led up to this.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
I'm not against removing abandoned caches, just against removing them when there is nothing that says they will be removed.


 

There is. It is called CITO!!!!!

 

An abandoned cache that has fellen prey to the elements is no better than that empty beer can 5 feet away. If a cache falls into such a state, it is pretty obvious that no one, even the owner really cares about it. Time to trash that puppy out.

 

quote:
Please read all the other topics that have led up to this.


 

I have. I am still confused as to what you really want. You want somethng in writing, yet how will that differ from the way things are now? Is that what you want?

 

You can write all the rules you want, but if you are not willing to act on them, they are usless.

 

If it were in writing, would you remove an abandoned cache? It sounds like you will not do anything unless the owner (who's very absence is the issue) says it is ok.

 

There are lots of unwritten rules. It boils down to common sense.

 

I won't take out a cache if it has been abandoned, yet is being maintained by another local.

 

I won't remove a cache that simply needs a fresh log book.

 

But if a cache is in peices and has not been maintained for months, common sense would suggest that removal is a good thing.

 

What is wrong with that?

 

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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Rules, rules, rules. Some people can't function without them.

 

It is assumed that when you use this site and place caches, you will keep your contact information up-to-date. If there is a problem with your cache, we need to get in touch with you. If you can't be contacted, your cache may be taken off of the list of caches and physically removed from its hiding place.

 

Who should be the one to remove it?

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

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Bilder, you are trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. On many occasions I've stated that if yes there was something in writing when a hider goes to submit a cache that says their caceh can be removed when deemed abandoned (which needs to be defined), that geocaching.com may remove it or designate someone to. That is an agreement. A person that places a cache agrees to that. Then there is no problem. But it is not stated as such. It may be common sense. But not all common sense is legal or done in good taste.

 

If you want to make it a habit to remove caches like that without any backing from the site, then go for it. Jeremy already stated it is a listing service only and they are not responsible. If you do it, I just wouldn't make mention of it on cache pages or at events.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

"TOUGH NUTS" - for those who don't like it...

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quote:
If you want to make it a habit to remove caches like that without any backing from the site, then go for it.

 

You make it sound like I am just taking out caches at random.

 

For the record I have not removed a cache to date. I have come close, but another local beat me to it and removed the cache. Between myself and other locals, there have been several repairs of abandoned caches as well as an unknown number of fresh log books and such added to caches whose owners have gone AWOL.

 

quote:
It may be common sense. But not all common sense is legal or done in good taste.


 

Leaving a container in the woods and then not maintaining it is not legal or in good taste. Removing it when it reaches a state to where it and litter are one and the same is.

 

You seem to think that someone will get mad because their cache, which they placed and never maintained, was removed when it was found to be full of water and mildew for weeks.

 

Here is what the site has to say about cache maintenance:

 

quote:
Once you place the cache, it is your responsibility to maintain the cache and the area around it. You'll need to return as often as you can to ensure that your cache is not impacting the area, and ensure that the cache is in good repair. Once people have visited the cache, inquire about the cache and their opinion of the location. Does the area look disturbed? Are visitors disrupting the landscape in any way? If you have concerns about the location, feel free to move or remove it from the area.

 


 

They are asked to see that their cache is in good repair. If they do not, then someone else will either maintain it for them or remove it when it finally falls apart or falls prey to plunderers. They will not have any argument against the removal of the cache if it has not been maintained.

 

If you really want rules for every possible aspect of the game as well as enforcement proceedures for said rules, then you had best be ready to pony up more than 30 bucks for that membership.

 

Personal responsibility

 

Common Sense

 

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I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

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