Unfavorable news report from Phoenix area paper

[+cachew nut]

If geocachers are removing shards of pottery than this may be a good thing, cache in-trash out. Or maybe we should not be cleaning up our trash or broken bottles for fear that our decendants might not have any of our trash to look at.

 

How does anyone know that the petroglyphs were not drawn to be seen by geocachers of the future?

 

If this site is not concerned with enforcing the rules of no geocaches on National Park Service land in it's own backyard, (state of WA), then why should it be concerned with unmarked, unfenced public land in AZ?

[+Renegade Knight]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jfitzpat:

That said, you die hards had better get a clue. If you get worked up because you don't like being portrayed as driven by Happy Meal toys, you really should relax. The fact is, from the outside world's point of view, being obsessed with the hunt, is little better.

 

Regardless of rather it is the trinket or the hunt, the point is that some supposedly sensitive areas are being visited, not for their own sake, but purely for the pursuit of a game.

 

People here can hem and haw, but when you have cachers going out at night, by headlamp, to get the 'first' certificate from a new cache, it is pretty clear that, for some, the surroundings are secondary (if they matter at all).

 

-jjf

---

 

Bingo there. We have climbers who want to be the first, or the fastest. Enviroment is secondary? At a park I visited you literally trip over the climbing junk (I'm sure you could name the items) stuck in the rocks. At least a geocache would be hidden.

 

New territory? Hell it's the only real reason to geocache once you get past the ones in the local park. I've seen more and done more this summer than any other I can remember. Thanks to a 'game'. When the game goes away I will move on to the next stage and explore mining camps and ghost towns. Geocaching has taught me how to get to remote areas and do it intelligently.

 

As for your climbing. It's still an obsession so don't knock geocachers for being obsessed about geocaching.

 

When push comes to shove do the math. I've been in 130 different places this summer instead of say 12. Sure you have to things going on. Geocachers are concentrating on caches. But we are also not at the same old place for the 100th time trampling it either.

[+JAR]

 

[This message was edited by JAR on August 08, 2002 at 06:58 AM.]

[Aladin Sane]

Sorry Indem, but your water cycle explanation is not very accurate. What you are describing are mainly physical changes of water. The chemical changes that can occur with water or any other chemical compound can indeed destroy a water molecule. The individual atoms that make up the water molecule are not lost, but are rearanged into other hydrogen and oxygen containing compounds. By the same token, new water molecules are created every time oxygen combines with hydrogen during the combustion of any type of fuel. The atoms are forever, the molecules come and go.

[Aladin Sane]

I guess I was a little slow on the keyboard.

[Jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JAR:

Indemnifier,

 

You're way off on the wrong tack.

---

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. But you're both way off topic. Whether I'm inhaling hamster farts or drinking Adam's sneeze, the topic is about environment vs geocaching.

 

Please keep it to the topic.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[Outlaw_Frog]

1. "Hedpeth" cache zip code 85022 , "please obey all signs" then further into the description ".4 from the parking area, if you are brave you can drive to 100 feet of the cache(but do so @ your own risk)"... then people logging in saying they went @ night so that they could park close.. or they drove within ____ feet of the cache.. NICE !!! way to promote the game in a positive light,, (Oh those rules don't apply to us and the promoters of the game do not enforce them,, that post has been there since 9-3-2001 long enough to catch it if they wanted to..

2. "Almost there" cache.. zip code 85357 , I went to this site a while back it has had "7" visits.. not to many.. I was surprised when I went there.. after crossing under the fence I basically got my co-ordinates and then put my gps away, only checking it a few times to make sure I was on course, definative trail going on here...

I did have a good time geo caching and using my GPS and maps to see this game first hand.. although as others have pointed out, and I was glad to see that, that it does make an impact on the surronding area.. the desert, as harsh as it may seem, is fragile... I grew up in the deserts of western Arizona and have seen the changes of the landscape and the dissapearance of "Hidden" treasures ie: ghost towns, Swansea, Harrisburg, Harqua Hala,Camp Bouse,KofA, Castle Dome, Signal ect. and petroglyph sites and pictograph sites.. Granted it was long before GPS and geo caching came along, but it was till from too many people and alot of them wanting to take a piece of it home... the reason that they were still there when I was a kid is because they were unknown to the general public...

Some of ya are taking it as a personal attack on you, and some are quite level headed and intelligent about where the game needs to go and see where the game could cause some concerns, and to those I commend you...

Too much of anything is usually a bad thing, no matter what it is.. Being it 60 jeeps over the same trail on the same day (I am an avid 4 wheeler) or 50 people converging on the same area in search of the same thing (I am also an avid hiker but prefer the remote places)..

Life is full of compromises, as much as some hate to admit it (myself included).. But the choice is to police your own OR have someone else do it for you... it has been said before in this forum, there are only a few who make it hard for others.. and that is true in everything

Peace... Outlaw_Frog

(puts on flame retardent suit and flak jacket)

[Outlaw_Frog]

1. "Hedpeth" cache zip code 85022 , "please obey all signs" then further into the description ".4 from the parking area, if you are brave you can drive to 100 feet of the cache(but do so @ your own risk)"... then people logging in saying they went @ night so that they could park close.. or they drove within ____ feet of the cache.. NICE !!! way to promote the game in a positive light,, (Oh those rules don't apply to us and the promoters of the game do not enforce them,, that post has been there since 9-3-2001 long enough to catch it if they wanted to..

2. "Almost there" cache.. zip code 85357 , I went to this site a while back it has had "7" visits.. not to many.. I was surprised when I went there.. after crossing under the fence I basically got my co-ordinates and then put my gps away, only checking it a few times to make sure I was on course, definative trail going on here...

I did have a good time geo caching and using my GPS and maps to see this game first hand.. although as others have pointed out, and I was glad to see that, that it does make an impact on the surronding area.. the desert, as harsh as it may seem, is fragile... I grew up in the deserts of western Arizona and have seen the changes of the landscape and the dissapearance of "Hidden" treasures ie: ghost towns, Swansea, Harrisburg, Harqua Hala,Camp Bouse,KofA, Castle Dome, Signal ect. and petroglyph sites and pictograph sites.. Granted it was long before GPS and geo caching came along, but it was till from too many people and alot of them wanting to take a piece of it home... the reason that they were still there when I was a kid is because they were unknown to the general public...

Some of ya are taking it as a personal attack on you, and some are quite level headed and intelligent about where the game needs to go and see where the game could cause some concerns, and to those I commend you...

Too much of anything is usually a bad thing, no matter what it is.. Being it 60 jeeps over the same trail on the same day (I am an avid 4 wheeler) or 50 people converging on the same area in search of the same thing (I am also an avid hiker but prefer the remote places)..

Life is full of compromises, as much as some hate to admit it (myself included).. But the choice is to police your own OR have someone else do it for you... it has been said before in this forum, there are only a few who make it hard for others.. and that is true in everything

Peace... Outlaw_Frog

(puts on flame retardent suit and flak jacket)

[+Wolfb8]

Being the owner of this cache I believe that you have taken what I was saying out of context and the intent that it was writen. the cache page reads:

"Ok on to the cache.. Please obey all signs they do enforce them.. The cache is about .4 mile from the parking area....If you are brave ...you can drive to about 100 feet of the cache...(but do so at your own risk).... There are lots of people that walk this hill so please be careful...the no trespassing is for motor vehicle ..... it is ok to hike, and ride bikes here.... don't hop any fences "

 

THis was put there as a warning

 

wolfb8

[Outlaw_Frog]

Granted there are warnings BUT, it is still telling people to disobey the rules if you wish.. Instructions on shoes is warranted for some people.. Once again.. Not a personal attack so don't get nervous.. just pointing out how some people could interprete this.. Someone who gets stopped and cited for being in there could point to this and say it said that you COULD do this but to be careful and not get caught.. I think bank robbers have the same thought.. I know it is against the rules but don't get caught... Or maybe the thief that breaks into your home and steals all your stuff and says.. It is ok as long as I don't get caught..

Peace Outlaw_Frog

[Outlaw_Frog]

Apparently I hit a nerve with Libby Wolfb8.. ALL of their caches are now "Members" only caches.. something to hide ?? It looks like it... hmmm responsible geo cacher or a eco trasher ?? you decide... Point proven.... Thx Libby...

Outlaw_Frog

[Outlaw_Frog]

Apparently I hit a nerve with Libby Wolfb8.. ALL of their caches are now "Members" only caches.. something to hide ?? It looks like it... hmmm responsible geo cacher or a eco trasher ?? you decide... Point proven.... Thx Libby...

Outlaw_Frog

[+Wander Lost]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

 

When push comes to shove do the math. I've been in 130 different places this summer instead of say 12. Sure you have to things going on. Geocachers are concentrating on caches. But we are also not at the same old place for the 100th time trampling it either.

---

 

I think this is an important note that is being overlooked by land managers. I bet RK had to buy at least one 'Pass' to get into these areas. Not to mention day use fees in other areas. Refer to this thread for an idea of the number of fees we as geocachers are paying to play this game.

 

Since we are visiting areas that we would not have visited were it not for this game, we are now buying passes and paying fees that we would not have before. If you follow my logic, and why wouldn't you , Geocaching is providing revenue to these agencies that they wouldn't have otherwise.

 

As always, JMHO.

 

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

[+Wander Lost]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

 

When push comes to shove do the math. I've been in 130 different places this summer instead of say 12. Sure you have to things going on. Geocachers are concentrating on caches. But we are also not at the same old place for the 100th time trampling it either.

---

 

I think this is an important note that is being overlooked by land managers. I bet RK had to buy at least one 'Pass' to get into these areas. Not to mention day use fees in other areas. Refer to this thread for an idea of the number of fees we as geocachers are paying to play this game.

 

Since we are visiting areas that we would not have visited were it not for this game, we are now buying passes and paying fees that we would not have before. If you follow my logic, and why wouldn't you , Geocaching is providing revenue to these agencies that they wouldn't have otherwise.

 

As always, JMHO.

 

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

[Team Dragon]

quote:

---

Outlaw Frag stated:

Apparently I hit a nerve with Libby Wolfb8.. ALL of their caches are now "Members" only caches.. something to hide ?? It looks like it... hmmm responsible geo cacher or a eco trasher ?? you decide

---

 

She changed them to MO caches 12 hours before your post. For someone who has never found a cache, you pretend to know an awful lot about hers. The words on Hedpeth are a warning. What part of "at your own risk" don't you understand?

 

Hmm, troll or troll? You decide.

[+LaPaglia]

These same type of stewards and land managers will be protecting all those abondoned caches that were never removed when their owners left the sport.

 

Think of the archaeological importance of a tupperware container filed with trinkets. Was it an offering to their god GPS. Perhaps this Geocacher tribe was into human sacrifice? is this a burial relic to insure riches in the afterlife?? We may never know. Lets not tell anyone its here so its not disturbed.

 

One mans trash...........

 

Lapaglia

"Muga Muchu" (forget yourself, focus).

[+LaPaglia]

These same type of stewards and land managers will be protecting all those abondoned caches that were never removed when their owners left the sport.

 

Think of the archaeological importance of a tupperware container filed with trinkets. Was it an offering to their god GPS. Perhaps this Geocacher tribe was into human sacrifice? is this a burial relic to insure riches in the afterlife?? We may never know. Lets not tell anyone its here so its not disturbed.

 

One mans trash...........

 

Lapaglia

"Muga Muchu" (forget yourself, focus).

[jfitzpat]

I don't recall knocking cachers, in fact, I've stated many times that it is, with some constraints, a reasonable public land use.

 

As for being obsessive, I think that the fact that I pursue other activites besides climbing, even ones that dont' spin my wire, shows that I approach my hobbies with more balance than some folks (not a personal comment, general!)

 

Climbing is a great access example. A potentially high impact sport pursued by a small (though dramatically growing) segment of the population. To keep access open, several things have had to change.

 

First, the sport has had to get very serious about impact. Even aid climbing if often now done 'clean' (no pins or bolts). Everything from waste disposal (you don't want to know about a p@@p tube), to the color of webbing and hangers.

 

The sport is much cleaner than it was, but we'll have to get cleaner still as the number of participants grows. I think that our next big adjustment will be chalk. Some areas have a no gymnastic chalk ethic (I don't bother with it myself, I think it is a placebo for most climbers). But, even though it is not permanent or particularly damaging to the environment, it is unsightly. Popular sport and bouldering areas look terrible.

 

All national and international climbing organizations (AMGA, AAC, UIAA, IFMGA, etc.) have gotten very serious about environmental impact. "Leave no Trace" is definately becoming more than lip service for many professionals.

 

Second, climbers got organized. Many popular climbing areas have a 'friends of' non-profit made up of climbers. By getting organized, and building relationships with local land management (staging cleanup days, trail building, facility improvements, etc.), these groups usually get a seat at the table when rules are proposed.

 

Climbers are also organized at the national level, for example, the Access Fund. Again, while these groups negotiate with public and private land owners, etc., a big emphasis is on educating climbers so that, as a group, we are lower key, lower impact. A few bad apples can really screw things up for everyone else. Hueco Tanks would be a good example of this for climbers.

 

While local climbers were negotiating rules with the Park, a few self absorbed types flaunted the temporary bolting ban, and intentionally targetted areas that rangers considered especially sensitive. Net result, extremely limited access. A lot of climbers complain, but, I think it is a tribute to the land managers that there is any climbing access at all, given the circumstances.

 

-jjf

[+Team "Wyle E"]

I've visited most of the caches within Arizona. Something that hasn't been mentioned about the reported 18 caches on Archeological sites is that most of them are VIRTUAL caches. One of the caches mentioned in the article was a physical cache until March 7th and is now a virtual. I know the owner regrets making it a physical cache to begin with.

 

As mentioned earlier, most archeological sites in Arizona are not marked or fenced in any way. Most are on public land. I've stumbled onto archeological sites while hiking to a cache. Some of our caches are located near an archeological site, and the hunter can hike the extra distance to see the remains, if they choose.

 

Yes - we're very upset in Arizona on this article that appears based on a few people's accusations. We're working on meeting our accusor's to clear up any misunderstandings.

 

Larry

[+pater47]

Geocatching? You boys been Geocatching? Geocatching is The Devil! Frankly, news about destruction, vandalism, habitat damage, etc. sells papers. To counter this, we as responsible cachers should do two things:

1.) Self-promote our sport. Most often a person's first impression will be the one they keep. Likewise, when negative press like this does come out, respond in a civil way. Thank the writer for any positive comments. Correct any errors and misconceptions tactfully. And for crying out loud, check your spelling!

2.) Quit giving them ammunition. If you know an area is prohibited, don't put a cache there. Cache owners, keep watch on your caches. If you see a trail forming, move and/or archive the cache. Never remove or knowingly destroy archeological artifacts. The cache-in, trash out concept can get us a lot of brownie points.

 

Stamp out and eradicate superfluous redundancy.

[+Sandrich]

The real topic here is responsibility! Yes, the R word. As 'cachers we DO have a responiblity to the land we hike through. And yes, that newspaper has a responsiblity to provide a beter balanced story. Just because the "reporter" shirked her responibility, doesn't mean we should/will shirk ours! It might not be a bad idea for some 'cachers local to AZ to invite her out on a hunt. Even if she declines, we will have made a point. If she accepts, we may have a new 'cacher in our fold. Either way, this is a place to "Think Globally, act Locally"

 

To Magic!

[+Sandrich]

The real topic here is responsibility! Yes, the R word. As 'cachers we DO have a responiblity to the land we hike through. And yes, that newspaper has a responsiblity to provide a beter balanced story. Just because the "reporter" shirked her responibility, doesn't mean we should/will shirk ours! It might not be a bad idea for some 'cachers local to AZ to invite her out on a hunt. Even if she declines, we will have made a point. If she accepts, we may have a new 'cacher in our fold. Either way, this is a place to "Think Globally, act Locally"

 

To Magic!

[crazyarcher]

I have hunted, fished, hiked and fourwheeled through the state of Arizona for the last twentythree years. I have stumbled upon ruins that the stewards probably don't even know about and have seen the pottery shards they are talking about, most of them are not large chunks of a bowl or pot they are slivers, not really worth a whole lot unless you have a whole lot of time and a case or two of crazy glue.

 

Anyway the article did turn me on to the sport and since there are a few caches in the area I am scouting for deer this weekend hopefully I can record my first find.

 

Happy hunting, CrazyArcher

[wmas1960]

Reading this afternoons batch of responses here I have a couple comments and a question for Jeremy.

 

First it is a good point that shouldn't have to be repeated that if you are in an area that is known to be off limits to caching than don't place a cache there. If you are in an area that is known to contain sensitive natural features or archealogical value do not place your cache there. Also it should be reinforced that especially in potentially sensitive areas like this and actually any area, if you notice trails forming and getting out of hand, litter building up to unreasonable areas, destruction to vegitation terrain, erosion... than you should take some action to repair the damage or archive or relocate the cache to allow the area to recover. You should also consider potential traffic to a prospective site and think, What damage could be caused here? If there is anything of concern, you should probably find a better place. I don't know how many cachers there are out there that are like this but when you place your cache you should accept a responsibility to it that you will check in on it from time to time and keep it maintained. You should not place a cache so far away that you can't get to it regularly. If you do place one near a vacation site or other remote location, try to have some designated person who will check on it for you. Some clubs, I understand, will find sombody to adopt your cache or look in from time to time. I get the impression that there are some who place a cache and just sit at their computer and monitor it. A few posts I have read are from people who went back to their cache after a period of time and were shocked at the condition of the environment around their cache. They seem to have not had any idea what was going on. If you read your online log and notice a large number of people are posting finds than you should probably go out and make sure the traffic isn't too heavy for the area. I guess though, sometimes you don't know what the impact will be until you have placed your cache. Like the saying goes, If you place it they will come. Or, maybe if you place it they will come and come and come... Also check if not just to make sure that the container is holding up and that it is getting replaced properly. I have read logs about caches that have gone weeks or months without being in their proper place. When improperly placed you might cause an impact on an unintended area or non-cachers may stumble along your cache and spread it around the area causing litter.

 

Now for a question that had occoured to me. Maybe Jeremy can address this. If a park or forest department etc. were to contact Geocaching.com with a demand that caches not be placed in an area, If they provided the general Lat. and Lon. boundries of the area, can that information be placed in a database and matched with all the caches that are registered on Geocaching.com? I notice there are maps on the cache page that points to location. My understanding is that, is it NGS or The Census or whatever but most of these mapping programs are powered by the government. I think they are based on Tiger. http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapsurfer If those maps already have the boundries of national forests or parks..., certain State Parks, already plotted, could Geocaching.com Red Flag all caches that fall in those areas and not allow them displayed online? If a given area has been declared a location by permit only, than maybe some of the land managers, rangers, stewards... can issue a serial number for their approvals and the database can check postings of caches in those areas to make sure they have a proper serial number attached to them.

 

The reason I ask the above question is that in the article and a few other posts I have read it mentions how there are know rules about where a cache can and can't be placed yet there are several caches listed in those very areas. I will admit it does create an appearance that we are all talk and no action.

[iryshe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wmas1960:

 

If they provided the general Lat. and Lon. boundries of the area...

 

...there are know rules about where a cache can and can't be placed yet there are several caches listed in those very areas.

---

 

Two answers:

 

1. Yes. I could be given a block of an area (a rectangle) and return a number of caches. However, most parks are not parcelled into blocks. It would be an interesting temporary solution but temporary = time consuming. And I only have so many coding hours in the day.

 

I brought this up elsewhere in the forums, but we'll be investing in a mapserver shortly. Most parks have GIS access and could provide me with descriptive shapefiles (maps and boundaries) of their parks. I could add them and provide information on their policies on geocaching that way. So a quick look could show that xx spot needs to be reviewed by xx agency.

 

2. Yes, there are rules but they aren't exactly readily available. We're working on some ways to make it more available. In the meantime we plead for people to ask permission. It really isn't all that difficult. As I have said before, however, a large number of geocachers are introverted, so it's difficult for some to take the plunge.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[+Highpointer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Golden:

I'm beginning to feel like the PWC's of the land that a lot of people hate in the boating industry!

---

 

What are the PWC's of the land?

[+GypsyMoth]

We had no trouble finding this spot a couple of weeks later--just followed the tire tracks through the open meadow to the deep hole and parked. Did not realize we were on the sociopath, tho, cause it looked like a well-traveled trail by the time this vehicle and the one that pulled it out had been and gone.

 

http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/log/376070_300.jpg

 

I guess one could say, this is the start of a new tourist attraction--Grand Canyon of Las Vegas.

****

In response to the concerns geocachers are pothunting: They don't have to to cause the problem. Pothunters can go online just as easily as rangers to learn the coordinates of these sites.

 

I did not describe what the "payoff" is at my cache but the same weekend another cache was placed within .1 mile with ALL the description online. Fortunately, the rock art is on huge boulders...

*****

 

No matter how responsible you and I are, there are others. I don't have any solution.

[+Zzzoey & illDRIVEuNav]

we had a cool hobby that didn't bother ANYONE, I see this thread. The funny thing, we have told my inlaws in Maricopa County, Arizona about our "new" hobby, and even though they don't quite understand what a GPS is, they know we have been having a blast hiking all over. Now, they probably can't brag to their retiree friends about our hobby, cuz all those old farts will have read that republic article. How shameful, us vandals and our selfish game. he he

 

I know Arizona has a lot of archaelogical spots, we hiked in the White Tank Mtns last December. But, you cannot expect an un-monitored spot on public land to be left pristine. The cost of all of us paying taxes and setting aside public places, is that we know the inbred faction of the public will do whatever they can to destroy it. Unfortunately we see this on all public lands here also. Broken glass, trash, etc. Heck, a glacier erratic rock in Oregon, has lost over 2/3 of it's size to tourists chipping away at it, IT HAPPENS FOLKS! The darn rock was estimated to weigh 160 tons when geologists first discovered and measured it in 1950, in 1980 it was whittled down to 90 tons. Now they say it is only 40 tons! That's a lot of whittling! See my cache near it http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=25891

 

(oh gosh I must be guilty of causing all that damage! wink wink)

 

If they let people take a rock hammer up to Mt. Rushmore, don't you think it would slowly disappear? I do

 

My opinion is that if there are important artifacts, they should be dug, cataloged, photos taken, and removed from the public land. Otherwise, expect people to collect them. Sad, but true. It seems these people just enjoy boxing shadows, and geocachers happen to be an easy target.

[+Zzzoey & illDRIVEuNav]

we had a cool hobby that didn't bother ANYONE, I see this thread. The funny thing, we have told my inlaws in Maricopa County, Arizona about our "new" hobby, and even though they don't quite understand what a GPS is, they know we have been having a blast hiking all over. Now, they probably can't brag to their retiree friends about our hobby, cuz all those old farts will have read that republic article. How shameful, us vandals and our selfish game. he he

 

I know Arizona has a lot of archaelogical spots, we hiked in the White Tank Mtns last December. But, you cannot expect an un-monitored spot on public land to be left pristine. The cost of all of us paying taxes and setting aside public places, is that we know the inbred faction of the public will do whatever they can to destroy it. Unfortunately we see this on all public lands here also. Broken glass, trash, etc. Heck, a glacier erratic rock in Oregon, has lost over 2/3 of it's size to tourists chipping away at it, IT HAPPENS FOLKS! The darn rock was estimated to weigh 160 tons when geologists first discovered and measured it in 1950, in 1980 it was whittled down to 90 tons. Now they say it is only 40 tons! That's a lot of whittling! See my cache near it http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=25891

 

(oh gosh I must be guilty of causing all that damage! wink wink)

 

If they let people take a rock hammer up to Mt. Rushmore, don't you think it would slowly disappear? I do

 

My opinion is that if there are important artifacts, they should be dug, cataloged, photos taken, and removed from the public land. Otherwise, expect people to collect them. Sad, but true. It seems these people just enjoy boxing shadows, and geocachers happen to be an easy target.