Open Letter, Are You Thick?

5.9k · July 22, 2003

What the hell is your problem? You read my cache page; you go through the motions and find my cache. You log your find and say you had a great time. Then my cache turns up missing. Why? Because you did all that but for some freaking reason you couldn’t find the energy to place it back the way you found it! It was covered with leaves and sticks when you found it. It was under a log when you found it. It was inside a hollow log when you found it. It was stuck to a pole in a certain place. It was attached to the underside of the bench in a specific way. You couldn’t be bothered to cover it, re-hide it, shove it back, replace it, or reattach it the same dadgum way you found it. Are you lazy, stupid, or thick? I love all you local cachers, but what the F are you thinking? I put a lot of time, effort, and even money into making a memorable geocaching experience for you. When I check on the cache for routine maintenance, it’s five feet away from where I placed it, laying in the open, plundered, or missing. I might like to blame the newbies but they seem to be more conscientious than some of the older (wiser?) players. It really isn’t hard.

I think you know who you are....

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

5.3k · July 22, 2003

Wasn't me...

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

3.8k · July 22, 2003

(You must feel better now! Feel free to vent here anytime.)

============="If it feels good...do it"==============

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")

.

4.8k · July 22, 2003

I have found several caches that were just sitting out in the open when I got there and the means to hide them well were plentiful. I figure the last cachers there just left it sitting that way. In one case, the previous person to log had several hundred finds. Like you, I really wondered why they didn't re-hide it. Geeze, they could have at least covered it up a little!

Of course, I suppose it is possible a non-cacher found it hidden and then left it out in the open.

July 22, 2003

Sorry. I'll be more careful next time.

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

2.6k · July 22, 2003

I've got your cache! HAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAA

You can come and get it if you want it.

Does the person your addressing this to come to the forums a lot?

Pepper playing nice!

Mokita!

24.7k · July 22, 2003

That about sums up how I feel when I check on my caches.

If we all take our toys and go home can the lurkers keep playing?

1.8k · July 22, 2003

Okay, Criminal!!! Next time you are in Starbucks, ask for DECAFFINATED coffee. Also, you could turn this fiasco into a VIRTUAL cache by having people count the number of your plundered caches. (I know, you don't do virtuals).

38.2k · July 22, 2003

It is a problem. Caches are found out in the open around here all the time. I think some people think they're doing the next geocacher a favor by leaving the cache exposed. What? Do they think we're so stupid we can't find it on our own?

Moving caches is another issue. I have one where I went back for maintenance and couldn't find it. Figuring it was stolen, I went home to disable it, only to see there was a find on it just after I had left. Turns out it was moved 30 feet from where I placed it. No wonder a few finders complained that my clue was useless.

On other occasions I've discovered my caches moved a few feet. Not a big deal, but why?

On the other hand, why do people hide it BETTER than I hid it? I rated it 1.5 stars and hid it in a manner that corresponded to the rating. Then I start getting a bunch of 'not founds' for a cache that should be an easy find!!!!!

WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT REPLACING IT THE WAY YOU FOUND IT?????????

Rant over...

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on July 23, 2003 at 06:19 AM.]

5.9k · July 22, 2003

This rant came about because of a number of incidents, both on my caches and others. I have been out hunting caches that were completely out in the open and had me wondering how they remained un-plundered.

My cache, which is an altoid tin placed on a metal pole in the middle of a parking lot, relies 100% on its ability to look like it belongs there. It does look like it belongs there, but not by very much. The pole is a rusty shade of red and the tin is black. To the casual observer, it is simply part of the pole. Because it is so easy, it is naturally easy to maintain. I checked on it once and found that someone had wrapped a rubber band around it to hold it closed. That really looked natural. Almost every time I check, it is placed incorrectly, either it’s horizontal or on the wrong side of the pole. It has to be vertical and centered on the pole to look like an access opening. Recently I reported it missing only to have someone log it as found the next day. He wrote to me saying he found it about ten feet up the pole. (it was only about three feet up to allow it to be grabbed w/o getting out of the car) He put it back where he found it which is great, but who thought they could improve my cache by placing it higher and on a different side of the pole baffles my mind. It completely exposed finders as they had to get out of the car and reach up to get it.

I recently had another cache stolen as well. It was the combination, not caffeine, which led to this rant.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

2.3k · July 22, 2003

We shoot 'em.

Arizona Revised Statutes:

13-408. Justification; use of physical force in defense of property

A person is justified in using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.

July 22, 2003

I hear you Criminal. I have the same problems with my caches. Had two plundered this week. I always make sure I put caches back in the same place I find them. If I feel they are too exposed I make sure they are protected from muggles. How hard can this be? Geez!

GF

===========================================

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

July 22, 2003

You all raise interesting points. The problem is, if you place the cache in the same place you found it, it may or may not be the place where the owner placed it. One cache I found was simply lying on the ground out in the open, but it was in an area where probably no one would ever come. So, when I finished, I left it right where I found it. On the other hand, I’ve found some totally exposed in frequently visited areas. So, I re-hid it so that geomuggles would have a tough time finding it. I found one of Criminal’s caches completely scattered over a wide area. Quite obviously, I didn’t leave it in that condition. I put it back together, re-hid it, and emailed him the new location. Common sense, folks. I just checked all of mine on Sunday (I only have four), and only one had moved, and that one only five feet in 1 ½ years. The person who moved it mentioned in their log that the original hiding place had deteriorated and they had moved it to a better location. I thanked them! Communication is the key to most problems.

"Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth,

And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings..."

July 22, 2003

Did you put on your cache page that the finders should try ang put it back exactly like they found it? The ones putting it like 10 feet high and on the wrong side might think they are helping out because the actual spot seems too obvious.

This is good food for thought.

Team Kender - "The Sun is coming up!" "No, the horizon is going down."

1.2k · July 22, 2003

As usual Criminal makes a great point. Unfortunately a lot of individuals who are guilty of such behavior will never read these forums.... sigh.

Now, if I could just get the hurricanes to leave my caches where I hid them....lol.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

5.9k · July 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Kender:
Did you put on your cache page that the finders should try ang put it back exactly like they found it? The ones putting it like 10 feet high and on the wrong side might think they are helping out because the actual spot seems too obvious.

This is good food for thought.

Team Kender - "The Sun is coming up!" "No, the horizon is going down."

From the cache page:

When you replace the cache container, please ensure it is centered, square, and plumb, the way you found it. If you can think of any way to make this cache even easier than it already is, please mention it in your log.

EDIT: 23 March 03, This cache is tentatively back online. It has been relocated slightly and the coordinates adjusted. Hopefully nobody will remove it again.

NOTE: Please make sure the lid closes on its own. if it does not, please take something out. Also, PLEASE do not use a string or rubber band to keep it closed, that could give it away!

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

8k · July 22, 2003

My first Markwell.

In that thread OUTSID4EVR said

quote:
I have begun to write detailed re-hiding instructions on the inner cover of the physical logbook, so it would be possible to rehide the cache exactly as I intend each time. I also usually write something on the online cache description. This has reduced the problem. Let's educate the newbies, and remind the slob cachers.

I think putting a comment on the cache page that says to rehide per the instructions in the log book will be the best way to let people know that the owner wants the cache hidden a certain way

東西南北

Why do I always find it in the last place I look?

38.2k · July 22, 2003

quote:
The problem is, if you place the cache in the same place you found it, it may or may not be the place where the owner placed it. One cache I found was simply lying on the ground out in the open, but it was in an area where probably no one would ever come.

If each person replaces the cache the way they found it, then it will always be hidden the way the owner hid it. This being said, if the cache is obviously where it shouldn't be, then re-hide it in accordance with its difficulty rating. If it's a 2 star difficulty and it's sitting in the open, then obviously that wasn't the intent of the cache owner. Should be common sense.

There may be circumstances where it is necessary to move a cache. Perhaps the stump it was hidden in disintegrated, floodwaters are threatning the

cache, or a number of other reasons.

If you do need to move it, it's not that hard to mention it in your log...or e-mail the owner.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

July 22, 2003

I always move it about 100 feet.

That way the next searcher thinks his GPS is broken and wastes money buying a new one.

===========================================================

"The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings".

July 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tozainamboku:
My first http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=27360816&r=48160126.

In that thread OUTSID4EVR said

quote:
I have begun to write detailed re-hiding instructions on the inner cover of the physical logbook, so it would be possible to rehide the cache exactly as I intend each time. I also usually write something on the online cache description. This has reduced the problem. Let's educate the newbies, and remind the slob cachers.

I think putting a comment on the cache page that says to rehide per the instructions in the log book will be the best way to let people know that the owner wants the cache hidden a certain way

東西南北

_Why do I always find it in the _last_ place I look?_

I agree here...I think a brief note on the cache page reminding the finder to replace it exactly as described inside the logbook should suffice. Heck, I'd even include a photo of how it looked when it was originally placed, so there'd be *no* confusion...

1.8k · July 22, 2003

My latest hide's cache description ends with the following:

''Cover it up better than you found it.''

That way, there really can be no confusion that it's not meant to be sitting out in the open.

This wouldn't work for Criminal's pole cache; I don't know how he could make it any clearer.

WWJD? JW RTFM.

July 22, 2003

I believe that: There should be a criminal charge of "Stupidity"

and it is a "Southern" legal defense of "He deserved to be whomped"!

"Geocaching expands your horizons - not your butt!"

9.1k · July 22, 2003

Criminal, thank you for putting into words... in your own incomparable way... what SO many hiders have felt when they went back to check up on their caches. My most difficult multicache, ending with a level 4 difficulty hide, was lying out in the open. GRRRRR.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

38.2k · July 22, 2003

quote:
I agree here...I think a brief note on the cache page reminding the finder to replace it exactly as described inside the logbook should suffice. Heck, I'd even include a photo of how it looked when it was originally placed, so there'd be *no* confusion...

Great idea, but it doesn't work. I put that reminder on many of my cache pages. Come to think of it, why should it even be necessary? Are people THAT stupid? Sadly, I guess so.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

July 22, 2003

I found the cache and carried it a few feet up the hill to level ground so I could set on a log and open the box without falling in the creek, trade and log. When I went to replace it I had no idea where I got it from. Guess I'm a combo. Lazy, stupid and maybe a little thick. But then I don't have one of them rocket science degrees. Guess I'll get fired now that the secret's out about me not having the required degree.

July 22, 2003

Solution: Most all of us own a digital camera...Take a photo of the cache when it is found and use the display to place it back where you found it..Problem solved

"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?"

38.2k · July 22, 2003

quote:
Solution: Most all of us own a digital camera.

Sorry, I still use my 30+ year old Minolta SRT's.

Brian's solution: Replace it the way you found it. This ain't freakin' rocket science!

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

July 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:
We shoot 'em.

Arizona Revised Statutes:

13-408. Justification; use of physical force in defense of property

A person is justified in using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.

what a NICE intelligent law....In Mass they expect you to run out of the house and let the crooks have their way!!!!

Give me a Tall ship, and a Star to steer her bye...

The White Fleet....

4.5k · July 22, 2003

One of the reasons I follow a cache that I found. I want to make sure the next person finds it. After that, if it gets plundered it's not something I did in re-hiding it.

Alan

4.8k · July 22, 2003

Yeah, you would hope people would use common sense to replace appropriately.

I did once move a cache slightly, but due to circumstances. A woman who owned property near where we were (the cache was on public land though) saw us seeking the cache and came and asked what we were doing and saw the cache. We said *playing a GPS game* and were prepared to explain more, but she just turned and suddenly left. We were worried about it, so we moved the cache into a well covered depression about 5 feet away that hid it really well (and I mean REALLY well, who knows, maybe it was the original spot). Needless to say, we made sure the owner knew we had moved it and why, the slight change in coords, and as a bonus, the move still fit with the hint. Plus, I don't think the re-hide changed the rating much, but could have. But if it did, I still think we did the best thing under the circumstances.

My point is sometimes a move might be appropriate, but then the owner should be notified and you would hope for common sense. Leaving a cache in the open or changing the hide for no reason defies that!

[This message was edited by carleenp on July 22, 2003 at 07:46 PM.]

2.5k · July 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tikiroy:
Solution: Most all of us own a digital camera...Take a photo of the cache when it is found and use the display to place it back where you found it..Problem solved

"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?"

I had one recently that was hidden in the shrubery bordering the parking lot. A digital picture would have done me no good since the shrubs all looked alike. My solution was to leave my GPSr just in the bushes. That way I could walk back up to it, but anybody driving in would not be likely to see it.

Of course just as I was getting out of my car to go rehide the cache three cars pulled into the lot and I had to wait for them to leave the parking lot, but that is another story.

I have noticed on occasion that I forget exactly where the cache was when I found it. Sometimes the hides are just too good. I do like the idea of taking a picture of it though. I will remember that one.

Weight Man

2.6k · July 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by WeightMan:
My solution was to leave my GPSr just in the bushes. That way I could walk back up to it, but anybody driving in would not be likely to see it.

I have noticed on occasion that I forget exactly where the cache was when I found it. Sometimes the hides are just too good. I do like the idea of taking a picture of it though. I will remember that one.

Interesting.

Rather than leave your expensive GPSr where the cache was, why not get a colorful bandanna and place it in the cache location. Kind of like the ball marker in golf.

If it gets dirty or it's raining you can just throw it in the laundry when you get home.

Pepper playing nice!

Mokita!

July 22, 2003

I hate it when people take caches and don't put them back exaclty where they find them. I had one out on a tree limb that had to be put back just perfect to stay hidden and to keep from falling. I went to check on it and it was moved so many times! Then, it went missing...grr

jhwf4

July 22, 2003

Well Criminal, Faile and I found that pole cache of yours over a month ago. I know when we found it that the cache was of the horizontal persuasion.

You mentioned that it should be vertical. Unfortunately you didn't mention that part on the cache page so we went and put it back horizontally []

Oh well. It was really easy to find though.

Too bad about that Titlow Beach cache, we really wanted to find that one.

"Sometimes you are a very large fool Perrin Aybara. Quite often in fact." Annoura Sedai (Book Nine of The WoT)

2.7k · July 22, 2003

Well, I moved a cache one time...up on Beacon Rock in the Columbia River Gorge area. Here's teh link and the reason:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=24574

I emailed teh cache owner and mentioned the moving fact in my log. It was just a couple of feet higher so it shouldn't be a problem for the next finder.

July 22, 2003

It was me, but I'll never admit it.

But really, I've been to the cache Criminal is talking about (it was my first) and it does need to be just so in order to look right. When I take somebody caching for the first time I tell them to tell me when they find it BEFORE they touch it, then I tell them to take a minute or two to look at exactly how/where it is hidden. I think it is natural to want to pick it up as soon as you find it, and takes practice/discipline to remember to look first.

I'm not sure why anyone would put the thing 10 feet up the pole, when it is much easier to put it back where it was. The rubber band idea was particularly thick headed.

_________________________________________________________

If trees could scream, would we still cut them down?

Well, maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason.

Click here for my Geocaching pictures and Here (newest)

July 23, 2003

Re-hiding it the way you found it is what I try to do but just this weekend I wasn't really sure if I should do that.

At a stage of a multi, the container was quite visible under a bush, but the bush itself was so far out of the way that I doubt if any muggle would ever be in the area and if there were a few more leaves, you wouldn't have seen it.

I came down on the side of leaving it the way I found it, I just hope it's what the owner intended!

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

July 23, 2003

Criminal,

Have you thought about putting the instructions on the front of the logbook or including a small laminated photo of the cache in its intended position in the altoids tin?

Or maybe marking the pole where the cache is positioned so when they pull it off they see a square with the words "REPLACE CACHE HERE".

The adventures of Navdog, Justdog, and Otterpup

5.9k · July 23, 2003

I think that sometimes it’s an insidious thing, like the game of telephone where the original message gets slowly changed over time. A cache starts out in a certain place and a number of finders each replace it slightly off. Over time the cache location will change or become more exposed.

On the other hand, it can also be just one numbnuts who, either for laziness, stupidity, or just thinking he/she has a better idea, moves it or replaces it quickly and without re-hiding it correctly. Then every other finder dutifully replaces it as they found it.

In addition to the two examples above, there is always the possibility that someone who’s never even heard of geocaching finds it, goes through it, and thinks, “Cool, this sounds like fun!” They then take it back and toss it down without re-hiding it correctly.

Example one, above, will result in a slow migration that would become evident on the caches that you check on often, but appear to have moved significantly on caches you only check on now and again. Example two and three can easily result in a cache being plundered or stolen.

In many cases it is most likely the result of a combination of all of the above. It’s the folks who think they have a better idea for your cache than you did and re-hide it according to that idea that make me the angriest. My cache in Titlow Park was stolen recently. I can never replace that container; it was a low flat first-aid kit with a good seal. It was cool because the cammo job allowed it to be very near the trail but be unobserved as long as it had a few leaves thrown on top of it. Fledermaus has a rant in one of his caches, seems someone made a ribbon trail that led right to the cache. He didn’t design the cache with ribbons, why someone felt it necessary to “improve” his cache is beyond me.

If it doesn’t look right when you find it, mention it in your log or email the owner!

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

July 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:
One of the reasons I follow a cache that I found. I want to make sure the next person finds it. After that, if it gets plundered it's not something I did in re-hiding it.

Alan

Exactly! I always breathe a sigh of relieve when a cache has been found after I found it. I’d hate thinking I caused something to go haywire with a cache.

I had one that was found a few days after I did and they stated it was very visible. I put it were I found it and thought it was hidden okay. But I am always extra careful to maintain the integrity of the cache.

July 23, 2003

I have moved two caches. One I shifted three feet because the cover they had used was disintegrating. I set it below a (live) tree branch and pinned the branch to the ground with the ammo can. It looked very natural and matched the rating of the cache.

The other cache I moved was this one. It had a 2/3 or 3/2 rating for what was basically a short hike over easy terrain to find the cache practically sitting out in the open. I shifted it a foot or two and hid it according to its rating.

I don't do this lightly. If someone goes through the bother of setting a cache, it's our responsibility to keep the cache as they intended. But sometimes, on rare occasions, you have to make adjustments.

Ode to a Pigeon: Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, You Lookin' at Me? YOU LOOKIN' AT ME?! (b. katt, 7/14/03)

July 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Navdog:
Criminal,

Have you thought about putting the instructions on the front of the logbook or including a small laminated photo of the cache in its intended position in the altoids tin?

Or maybe marking the pole where the cache is positioned so when they pull it off they see a square with the words _"REPLACE CACHE HERE"_.

When the positioning needs to be that exact, this sounds like the best solution to me. But alas, someone will still put it back wrong. Though hopefully the next person will understand the pic and replace it the correct way.

Team Kender - "The Sun is coming up!" "No, the horizon is going down."

July 24, 2003

I've always thought that caches that are moved to a new spot near the original spot is being done by cachers who think their GPSr's are accurate to the inch. When they find the cache and their GPSr says they are 12 feet away I think they put it back where their GPSR says 0.0

I get this feeling from some logs where you see the phrase "... Found it 12 feet from where it was supposed to be..."

--- yrium ---

38.2k · July 24, 2003

quote:
I've always thought that caches that are moved to a new spot near the original spot is being done by cachers who think their GPSr's are accurate to the inch. When they find the cache and their GPSr says they are 12 feet away I think they put it back where their GPSR says 0.0

I get this feeling from some logs where you see the phrase "... Found it 12 feet from where it was supposed to be..."

I never thought of this, but you may be right.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

July 24, 2003

Do you think some people are just malicious? I went to check on a cache a few days ago. The cache is an ammo box. When I found it the box was near it's intended location (about 10 feet up a tree) but the lid was removed and lying on the ground. These lids clamp shut, there just isn't any way for the lid to slip off. It would seem it would have to have been quite purposefully removed, but I can't imagine why.

-=-=-=-=-=-

GPS_Brian

=-=-=-=-=-=

38.2k · July 24, 2003

quote:
Do you think some people are just malicious?

Or stupid. Perhaps the lid came off while they were going through the contents and they couldn't figure out how to put it back on.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

4.5k · July 24, 2003

A funny thing happened to one of my caches. I spent all day 100 miles from home in PA setting up a multi cache. The first finder posts he found the Rubbermaid container ripped open by some critter, the cover gnarled, and the contents spread all around. He puts it back together and re-hid it where he thought I placed it.

The next weekend I head down there, ammo box in hand, and I can't find my cache for about five minutes. He hid it under the other end of the falled tree from where I originally hid it. I was thankful tough for what he did. So I replace the container with the ammo box and rehide in the original place.

Funny thing. A few months later it was plundered again. This time by a two-footed varmint! I converted the cache into a multi-virtual!

Alan

July 24, 2003

Here is a quote from an experienced geocacher with 320 finds, "I put it back in the same place, but upside down and with an extra rock

or two. It's a good thing W7WT got here before I did! Good luck to

those who follow me." Sounds like he raised the 1.5 difficulty. This is the same guy Criminal mentioned that put the rant onto one his cache pages about some ribbons someone (probably picnicers) near a cache site of his.

"Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth,

And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings..."

July 24, 2003

Oh, I forgot to mention that he said this, too: "I put the container inside a black plastic bag, not to keep the water out, but to camouflage it better."

"Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth,

And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings..."

1.8k · July 24, 2003

quote:
Cache was secured in a black Radio Shack plastic bag that I had in my pocket.

Sigh... Had to go out the next day and remove the bag, because that would just have collected more water, considering the cache's location.

WWJD? JW RTFM.

Open Letter, Are You Thick?

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