Junk In caches…

[+Ramness]

While out on a typical everyday cache hunt after driving in circles following your pointer for about an hour you finally find a good parking place

 

You get out and walk to the general area of the cache and once there you begin your ground search. Your excitement grows as the GPS wanders between 3 feet and 20 feet as you circle the area. Then you spot something! I strange stack of logs, maybe an oddly placed rock, or some ground cover over an object!

 

You race over to check to see if it is box that has driven you walk through spider webs, rivers, mud, thorns, and what ever else nature has put between you and the cache location.

 

You pull the cache out its hiding place that the cache’s creator has carefully chosen. You open the box to see what’s inside…. What do you find? JUNK!

 

I’ve gotten to the point where sometimes I don’t even bring anything to trade when I go on hunts. Just leave our card, a log entry and put it all back and it’s not the cache owners fault! They start out their cache with good stuff and others come along and leave trash. How many cache owners can afford to go back every few months and buy new stuff to restock their cache? I can’t! What can be done?

 

I’d be interested also in knowing what kind of crap people have found in caches.

 

Best Junk I have found so far:

Piece of a cut up VISA credit card

Childs notebook that looked to have been left out in the sun a rain for a few days after all pages were scribbled on.

Tag from a pair of shoes

Broken McDonald’s toys

Melted candy

Popcorn

Much more…

[+briansnat]

I know the fun is supposed to be in the hunt and I don't expect to get rich from the contents of a cache. But after spending a few hours hiking to and searching for a cache, it would be nice to find something more than a cache cache fuill of broken Happy Meal toys and other assorted trash (and I have actually found trash in a cache).

[BassoonPilot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ramness570:

... Your excitement grows as the GPS wanders between 3 feet and 20 feet as you circle the area. Then you spot something! I strange stack of logs, maybe an oddly placed rock, or some ground cover over an object!

 

You race over to check to see if it is box that has driven you walk through spider webs, rivers, mud, thorns, and what ever else nature has put between you and the cache location.

 

You pull the cache out its hiding place that the cache’s creator has carefully chosen. You open the box to see what’s inside…. What do you find? JUNK!

 

I’ve gotten to the point where sometimes I don’t even bring anything to trade when I go on hunts. Just leave our card, a log entry and put it all back and it’s not the cache owners fault!

---

 

Of course, leaving your "card" improves the situation drastically.

[BassoonPilot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ramness570:

... Your excitement grows as the GPS wanders between 3 feet and 20 feet as you circle the area. Then you spot something! I strange stack of logs, maybe an oddly placed rock, or some ground cover over an object!

 

You race over to check to see if it is box that has driven you walk through spider webs, rivers, mud, thorns, and what ever else nature has put between you and the cache location.

 

You pull the cache out its hiding place that the cache’s creator has carefully chosen. You open the box to see what’s inside…. What do you find? JUNK!

 

I’ve gotten to the point where sometimes I don’t even bring anything to trade when I go on hunts. Just leave our card, a log entry and put it all back and it’s not the cache owners fault!

---

 

Of course, leaving your "card" improves the situation drastically.

[+infosponge]

If a cache is really devoid of any tradable objects, I try to leave more than usual to make it better. A lot of the time lately I haven't been bringing a whole lot of extra stuff with me though, so I usually just leave one of my signature geo-tiles (which cost me between $3 and $4, depending on how many I order at a time) and don't take anything. If the kids are with me, they like to trade and I'll bring extra stuff.

All you can do is set an example and try to leave the cache better than you found it.

[DisQuoi]

Most agree that all trades should "trade-downs" (i.e., you leave something "great" in exchange for something "good")

 

In my opinion, if you really worked hard (fun, challenging, well thought out cache placement), you should be leaving an even "greater" booty. You shouldn't expect to be an award for a tough cache hunt unless the owner has specifically stated as such.

[+sbell111]

First, I'd like to state that we all agree that it is the experience, not the booty.

 

That being said, I totally agree with DisQuoi. We expect 1/1 caches to be full to the brim with McJunk. Cachers should try to leave better stuff in the 'more challenging' caches. Improving the items in these caches make it even better for the cachers who take the challenge in the future.

 

In my mind, too much emphasis has been placed on the cache hider's responsibility to maintain this quality level.

[+trippy1976]

I've found junk in caches. Most of the time there's good stuff in it too, though. I carry a relatively large assortment of interesting items with me while caching for just such instances. Clear out the stuff that is obviously junk.

 

I think the worst thing I've ever found were crumpled up tourist brochures. They were in poor condition and for somewhere like Oklahoma (in a New York cache) and somewhat damp. We removed them figuring they'd never get taken and would just clutter the cache.

 

But of course, one man's trash is another's treasure. *shrug* On kind of a side note, are /candles/ of any value to anyone? I think I've seen candles in 80% of the caches I've gone to. I've never taken them. In the near future I'll be setting up some caches of my own, so I'm curious.

 

--------

trippy1976

 

[+trippy1976]

I've found junk in caches. Most of the time there's good stuff in it too, though. I carry a relatively large assortment of interesting items with me while caching for just such instances. Clear out the stuff that is obviously junk.

 

I think the worst thing I've ever found were crumpled up tourist brochures. They were in poor condition and for somewhere like Oklahoma (in a New York cache) and somewhat damp. We removed them figuring they'd never get taken and would just clutter the cache.

 

But of course, one man's trash is another's treasure. *shrug* On kind of a side note, are /candles/ of any value to anyone? I think I've seen candles in 80% of the caches I've gone to. I've never taken them. In the near future I'll be setting up some caches of my own, so I'm curious.

 

--------

trippy1976

 

[+Renegade Knight]

I hate junk. I hate McToys. I'm going to dedicate a cache to trashing McToys. But you know what? I also trade up when I find junk just because I can. Plus it removes some junk. Some junk I've found would absolute thrill my dad. He's in to Ham radio. What I call junk they call parts and even do things with them. It's all perspective.

[magellan315]

For me the adventure is finding the cache, the junk level is much higher at 1/1's. However I usually bring extra stuf with me and remove McToys or similar stuff for two reasons. One to improve the quality of the cache bait, even if it is only temporary and two, in the hopes that future Geocachers will eventually realize that they should lewave interesting things as well. I choose cache bait on the basis of is it something really unique and/or usefull. For example one of the items I leave is a tire pressure gauge, you'd be amazed the number of people who do not have one in their car.

[mortonfox]

quote:

---

Originally posted by trippy1976:

treasure. *shrug* On kind of a side note, are /candles/ of any value to anyone? I think I've seen candles in 80% of the caches I've gone to. I've never taken them. In the near future

---

 

I used one of those short thick candles when the power went out. It lasted a few hours, which was long enough.

 

[This message was edited by StayFloopy on April 19, 2002 at 10:15 AM.]

[Robereno]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sbell111:

First, I'd like to state that we all agree that it is the experience, not the booty.

 

In my mind, too much emphasis has been placed on the cache hider's responsibility to maintain this quality level.

---

 

Actually, I lean toward putting the responsibility on the cache owner. In the old days (last year) we were hungry to get caches placed and people, including myself, placed caches where we couldn’t easily maintain them. The contents decline and the casual cacher (95% of them) don’t take the game so seriously that they put a lot of thought into their trade items. I do think that people who place caches are usually more serious about the game and, right or wrong, the responsibility is falling on them to occasionally visit and throw out the trash.

 

CreekBed.com

[+Team Rex]

Lets see I've seen some good junk to add to your list...

 

smashed juice box

rocks (nothing special about them)

little peices of glass

broken old fishing bobber obviously found on the ground by the pond the cache was near

fuzz - a big clump of some type of fuzz that must have been from a dolls hair or something

used chapstick (reminded me of the old SNL sketch)

opened toothbrush

 

If I didn't have to get back to work I'd start a list of nice things I found in caches. I really like some of the creative signature items people make and I love Rich's squirrel finders buttons. I may just have to plan a trip to CA someday to try an get one of those.

[+Team Rex]

Lets see I've seen some good junk to add to your list...

 

smashed juice box

rocks (nothing special about them)

little peices of glass

broken old fishing bobber obviously found on the ground by the pond the cache was near

fuzz - a big clump of some type of fuzz that must have been from a dolls hair or something

used chapstick (reminded me of the old SNL sketch)

opened toothbrush

 

If I didn't have to get back to work I'd start a list of nice things I found in caches. I really like some of the creative signature items people make and I love Rich's squirrel finders buttons. I may just have to plan a trip to CA someday to try an get one of those.

[Geo Quest]

Finding junk in a cache doesn't matter to me as much anymore. When I cache I cache for caching's sake, not the stuffing. What does bother me about the crap though is when I'm introducing a person to geocaching for the first time. A first-timer will be turned off when you pop the lid on the box and find McCrap and dryer lint.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+RAD Dad]

Yeah junk in the cache bugs me, not because I go caching for the booty, but rather because of what it says when people put that garbage in the caches. It says that too many people don't care about anyone but themselves. I'm sure that those placing the junk didn't take junk.(unless by the time they got to the cache that was all that was there) I always try and leave the caches I visit better than I found them.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

[MajBach]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DisQuoi:

Most agree that all trades should "trade-downs" (i.e., you leave something "great" in exchange for something "good")

---

 

I too wish people would adhere to this rule. I figure that by July, I should be finding a Ferrari.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything,where would you put it?

[MajBach]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DisQuoi:

Most agree that all trades should "trade-downs" (i.e., you leave something "great" in exchange for something "good")

---

 

I too wish people would adhere to this rule. I figure that by July, I should be finding a Ferrari.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything,where would you put it?

[The Artful Dodger]

Some of my cache pages will now have this logo on it ...

Not all of them, but some of them... I am referring to those Happy Meal toys that often are broken or missing parts etc.

 

 

[This message was edited by The Artful Dodger on April 20, 2002 at 05:25 PM.]

[+Moore9KSUcats]

We found a P-38 (an old GI can opener for those who don't know what it is) in a cache recently in Texas. It had been in the cache nearly a year. I wonder how many people realized what that was. My husband was absolutely THRILLED to find it. My 10 year old thought it was some funny kind of box cutter! A very small item that was undoubtably overlooked for many visits. Maybe trash to some, but a treasure for us!

[+Moore9KSUcats]

We found a P-38 (an old GI can opener for those who don't know what it is) in a cache recently in Texas. It had been in the cache nearly a year. I wonder how many people realized what that was. My husband was absolutely THRILLED to find it. My 10 year old thought it was some funny kind of box cutter! A very small item that was undoubtably overlooked for many visits. Maybe trash to some, but a treasure for us!

[+KD7MXI]

cigerretes THEY STINK UP A CACHE AND MAKE IT FAMILY UNFRIENDLY

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CacheAcrossAmerica

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest_cache.asp?u=KD7MXI

http://www.cachunuts.com

[+KD7MXI]

cigerretes THEY STINK UP A CACHE AND MAKE IT FAMILY UNFRIENDLY

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CacheAcrossAmerica

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest_cache.asp?u=KD7MXI

http://www.cachunuts.com

[+Bluespreacher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by infosponge:

If a cache is really devoid of any tradable objects, I try to leave more than usual to make it better. A lot of the time lately I haven't been bringing a whole lot of extra stuff with me though, so I usually just leave one of my signature geo-tiles (which cost me between $3 and $4, depending on how many I order at a time) and don't take anything. If the kids are with me, they like to trade and I'll bring extra stuff.

All you can do is set an example and try to leave the cache better than you found it.

---

 

I'm with you on this. I buy stuff at the $ store, Osco, sporting goods stores. All this stuff is in the $1 - $3 range: flashlights, toys, dog chews, rain ponchos. Sometimes I burn a CD or take one from home and add it in. The point is, I don't think caches are going to 'improve' unless some of us add cool stuff. Sure, there is no reward for this. We're still going to find junk in caches. What else is there to do? I want folks to find neat stuff in caches, therefore I try to put neat stuff in.

 

Keep on caching,

 

Bluespreacher

[+Bluespreacher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moore9KSUcats:

We found a P-38 (an old GI can opener for those who don't know what it is) in a cache recently in Texas. It had been in the cache nearly a year. I wonder how many people realized what that was. My husband was absolutely THRILLED to find it. My 10 year old thought it was some funny kind of box cutter! A very small item that was undoubtably overlooked for many visits. Maybe trash to some, but a treasure for us!

---

 

I actually started out some of my caches with the venerable P-38! If you know what to do with it, it can be a life-saver. Of course, I added other, more 'valuable' booty nuggets, too.

 

Bluespreacher

[+Bluespreacher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moore9KSUcats:

We found a P-38 (an old GI can opener for those who don't know what it is) in a cache recently in Texas. It had been in the cache nearly a year. I wonder how many people realized what that was. My husband was absolutely THRILLED to find it. My 10 year old thought it was some funny kind of box cutter! A very small item that was undoubtably overlooked for many visits. Maybe trash to some, but a treasure for us!

---

 

I actually started out some of my caches with the venerable P-38! If you know what to do with it, it can be a life-saver. Of course, I added other, more 'valuable' booty nuggets, too.

 

Bluespreacher

[MajBach]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bluespreacher:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moore9KSUcats:

We found a P-38 (an old GI can opener for those who don't know what it is) in a cache recently in Texas.

---

 

I actually started out some of my caches with the venerable P-38! If you know what to do with it, it can be a life-saver. Of course, I added other, more 'valuable' booty nuggets, too.

 

Bluespreacher

---

 

For a second there I thought you guys meant the aircraft. Pretty nice find.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything,where would you put it?

[RedShoesGirl]

The worst junk I found was yesterday in a cache that was up a road that you HAD to have a 4x with high clearance to make.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=10900

 

This was not an accidental find, yet the putz left a shotgun shell that he had found on the site and wrote some really uncomprehensible garbage in the log.

 

It was a nifty old mining site cache that was one of two up this wash, but this person couldn't see to leave anything better than the shell? Some people just don't get it and I don't get them.

 

I took a friend with me on her first geocaching adventure and her comment was "you leave NEAT stuff!"

 

I like MacToys or JackToys that are new and work or aren't part of something bigger, although I would really love to find an InspectorGadget hat because mine has melted on my dash board into a non-usable shape. Yep, it gets hot here in the desert. :-) but I digress.

 

[+Runaround]

A few more bits of junk I have found:

 

A rusty pocketknife

A broken pair of scissors

Pack of Marlboros

Half eaten pack of Lifesavers

A necklace made from beer bottlecaps

An open band-aid

A rusty cheese grater

Half a shoelace

Cracked and scratched sunglasses

[+planetrobert]

quote:

---

We found a P-38 (an old GI can opener for those who don't know what it is) in a cache recently in Texas. It had been in the cache nearly a year. I wonder how many people realized what that was. My husband was absolutely THRILLED to find it. My 10 year old thought it was some funny kind of box cutter! A very small item that was undoubtably overlooked for many visits. Maybe trash to some, but a treasure for us!

---

 

he good ole p-38 is a favorite item of mine, i have used it in a few caches, i usually don't trade due to declining cache states. sorry to say i don't take a cache repair kit, just cant afford it. yes it is the cache owners responsiblity to maintain it... if you cant afford to maintain your caches, maybe you should have less active caches out

 

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

[+mrcpu]

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page52.shtml

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

[MajBach]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrcpu:

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page52.shtml

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/4525_1300.gif

---

 

Ha Ha. Great! I didn't realize that's what those were called. I've got several of my own - one in my car, one in my boat, one in my kitchen and several in my survival pack. Picked 'em up years ago when I did survival and S & R training in Thunder Bay, Ontario.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything,where would you put it?

[+geospotter]

I picked up a handful of these "upgraded" P38's for caches. They now include a bottle opener and a spoon. (Don't appear to be GI issue - no markings).

 

[1groundpounder]

If I had to revamp the game I would have no treasures in the caches, unless it's just some candy for the kids. All that should be in them would be a bug. In doing this the "bug thing" would snowball and you could start tracing your bugs around the country. I think a little too much emphasis has been put on the treasure. Take a bug, leave a bug!

1groundpounder

[1groundpounder]

As an ex-Marine from the Vietnam era, I don't even remember this being called a p-38. To any GI worth his C-rations it was a "John Wayne". C-rations used to come in cases of about a dozen individual meals. In the bottom of each case were two "John Waynes". I carried one on my key ring for years, even after becoming a civilian again. I would welcome finding one in my next cache find.

1Groundpounder

[+Dep&Uno&Co]

I completely agree with everything that has been said so far. You can stock up on a ton of great stuff at Walmart or Target for cheap. Yes, the reward is in finding the cache, but opening it to find trash or someones used and broken toys is ridiculus. Not ALL Geocachers have kids. And yes, I do like to find something worth taking as a souvenir of the journey.

 

On a similar note. People should really look at the "Theme" of certain geocaches before leaving something there. Many people go to great creative lengths to set up specific themed caches, only to have the people they did all the work for totally ruin it by putting in the above mentioned garbage.

 

It was SOOOOO refreshing yesterday to go to a movie/DVD/VHS cache that has been active for about 5 months and actually find it full of movies. Now, to be fair, since all but 1 or 2 of the movies were not child friendly, we did leave a beanie bear (our signature item) and a wheresgeorge dollar, but this was in ADDITION to a DVD of Casablanca. That way we helped contribute to the theme but also left something fun for the next person who had a kid with them.

 

But we have gone to themed caches that had nothing left in them that would indicate what the theme was. If it says it's a music CD themed cache, then leave a music CD, not a happy meal toy or an "Jesus Loves Me" button.

 

If trash is all that people are finding when they get to each cache, people are going to stop looking for them.

 

Just my $.02

Dep

[Czar of Ridgeland]

Junk is junk and we all tend to know it when we see it. Used, dirty, broken McToys fall into that category. But new, working McToys, preferably still in their plastic bags, are an ideal cache prize for kids. When I take my two-year old caching with me, she often selects the McToys to trade. Instead of putting a red slash and circle around McToys, I recommend a slash and circle around "Junk."

[BassoonPilot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dep&Uno&Co:

 

If trash is all that people are finding when they get to each cache, people are going to stop looking for them.

---

 

No, only those who are "in it for the bootynuggets" will stop . . . or they'll cease worrying about it.

 

I don't agree with the use of the words "junk" or "trash" to designate what may be new, pristine, perfectly good items that you simply find undesirable.

[+VentureForth]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Czar of Ridgeland:

Junk is junk and we all tend to know it when we see it. Used, dirty, broken McToys fall into that category. But new, working McToys, preferably still in their plastic bags, are an ideal cache prize for kids. When I take my two-year old caching with me, she often selects the McToys to trade. Instead of putting a red slash and circle around McToys, I recommend a slash and circle around "Junk."

---

 

Gotta agree here. Some McToys are valuable collectables - if left in their unopened baggie. Our first find netted a McBeanie Baby. Got us hooked!

 

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

[+Dep&Uno&Co]

I don't think anyone in here is talking about New, clean, McToys or anything else that is still in it's wrapper or in like new condition. Everyone has pretty much agreed that those are great for the kids. What is being called trash here are things that are broken, dirty, half eaten, or inappropriate etc.

 

Dep

[Dirtnapper]

We all hate the junk..I try to check on the three caches that I have placed at leaset once amonth...I remove the butts and other junk, If I see a post about "junk" or questionable items, like butts, I go and remove them..simple.

[+Runaround]

quote:

---

I don't agree with the use of the words "junk" or "trash" to designate what may be new, pristine, perfectly good items that you simply find undesirable.

---

 

It all depends, I have found some perfectly good items that would be junk.

 

One local cacher is fond of leaving instant lottery ticket keychain scratchers. The problem, these can be grabbed for free anywhere instant lottery tickets are sold in the state. This same cacher also leaves unused coffee cards from the local quickie-mart. You know, the buy 10 get 1 free type cards. They are also free and usually in a big stack near the register. They are easy to find since they are right next to the scratchers.

 

Heck, the grocery store gives me a blue plastic bag to carry my purchases home but that doesn't mean I leave a "blue non-biodegradable equipment carrying sack" in every cache I find.

 

If they give it away, it's junk.

[+EliJoMikMiNi]

Sometimes knowing what is in a cache is what gets me out of bed early so I can try to get to it before someone else does. Other times I don't even know what I will find there, I just have to go cache-hunting, it's an addiction now. If more descriptive cache logs were entered i.e. " took *****, left *****". But I agree that if you take something from the cache container, you should leave something in it place that someone else might like. And that would not be...

 

a cigarette or butt

candy wrappers

rocks,sticks

movie ticket stubs

broken toys

'any' broken items

food of any type (wrapped or unwrapped)

gun shells

 

Suffice it to say 'If you wouldn't want to take it home with you, why leave it for someone else to find' ? I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

Vince Lombarde

[+EliJoMikMiNi]

Sometimes knowing what is in a cache is what gets me out of bed early so I can try to get to it before someone else does. Other times I don't even know what I will find there, I just have to go cache-hunting, it's an addiction now. If more descriptive cache logs were entered i.e. " took *****, left *****". But I agree that if you take something from the cache container, you should leave something in it place that someone else might like. And that would not be...

 

a cigarette or butt

candy wrappers

rocks,sticks

movie ticket stubs

broken toys

'any' broken items

food of any type (wrapped or unwrapped)

gun shells

 

Suffice it to say 'If you wouldn't want to take it home with you, why leave it for someone else to find' ? I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

Vince Lombarde

[halldorr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by EliJoMikMiNi:

movie ticket stubs

---

 

Heh saw something along those lines this weekend, didn't understand it

 

Speaking of leaving things, I grabbed some keychains, magnets, batteries, etc to leave. I read what was usually being exchanged and assumed that was fairly typical.

 

I think it would be nice to have some kind of signature item as well.

 

DVD/CD cache? Hmm, those would be very interesting to go to! Need to get one of those in Ontario

[halldorr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by EliJoMikMiNi:

movie ticket stubs

---

 

Heh saw something along those lines this weekend, didn't understand it

 

Speaking of leaving things, I grabbed some keychains, magnets, batteries, etc to leave. I read what was usually being exchanged and assumed that was fairly typical.

 

I think it would be nice to have some kind of signature item as well.

 

DVD/CD cache? Hmm, those would be very interesting to go to! Need to get one of those in Ontario

[+rusty_da_dog]

I recently ran into this problem while visiting the SW Virginia Area around Marion. I found several caches in a state park that had not a thing but junk. I left a couple of things in a couple and the more difficult one I couldnt find. Kinda glad after I was in the others.

It doesn't seem that hard to trade stuff. I don't have alot to trade but I do have some neat stuff.

Just my Opinion

Rusty

 

RW Da Man!!!

[+urbo]

if you find one full of junk, trade the junk out and post it on your logging. if everybody starts to frown upon junk then maybe it will taper off.

 

i use very clearly labeled them caches to keep things in line. havent had much of a junk problem. occasionally some people cant read so i just go over and remove the offending items.

 

too many mctoys??? dont throw out the good ones, give them to goodwill or whatever. theres enough crap in our ladfills. that 25 cent toy might make some kid happy.

 

urbo

south fl

 

[This message was edited by urbo on April 24, 2002 at 02:16 PM.]

[+urbo]

if you find one full of junk, trade the junk out and post it on your logging. if everybody starts to frown upon junk then maybe it will taper off.

 

i use very clearly labeled them caches to keep things in line. havent had much of a junk problem. occasionally some people cant read so i just go over and remove the offending items.

 

too many mctoys??? dont throw out the good ones, give them to goodwill or whatever. theres enough crap in our ladfills. that 25 cent toy might make some kid happy.

 

urbo

south fl

 

[This message was edited by urbo on April 24, 2002 at 02:16 PM.]