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Pay to Play? I'd like to hear from Jeremy


Guest LindaLu

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Guest pwl1234

My money order is in the mail. Which bring up my point, not all of us have credit cards so I would like to pay for my travel bugs and subscription by money order, just need an address or P.O. Box to send it to. Without these things in place, I and many others won't be able to send our money in. This is my main Geocache site, I want to be able to find a cache wherever I go on this planet. This game has provided me with an enjoyment, from the hiking, to biking, and to also see everthing that is in that cache area, historical, cultural, you name it. Every cache I do is part of the game, but also, part of the adventure.

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Guest pwl1234

Ooops, you have the address I was looking for to send in my subscription monies, nice job! Is there an address that I can send a money order to for a travel bug?

 

Lost Sailor

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quote:
Originally posted by pwl1234:

Ooops, you have the address I was looking for to send in my subscription monies, nice job! Is there an address that I can send a money order to for a travel bug?

 

Lost Sailor


 

Sure. Just indicate travel bug on the envelope and send it to the same address. You can go by the PayPal prices for travel bugs, since they cover shipping (US).

 

Is there anyone out there who has had experience with sponsorships/advertising? I see folks suggest it as an alternative to subscriptions, but I'm curious to know how many of them actually had experience with it. In my experience, it hasn't been a realistic alternative.

 

Garmin has been pretty good at introducing new folks to the sport, as well as adding two geocaching icons to their units. So they have done something for the sport, albeit it ultimately sells their units.

 

Jeremy

 

[This message has been edited by jeremy (edited 06 March 2002).]

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Guest fractal

quote:
Originally posted by ClayJar:

... Do I think Fractal will all-of-the-sudden become an elitist snob who hides his caches from all but the "elite few"? ...


 

Yes... Yes I will become an elitist snob icon_wink.gif

 

quote:
ClayJar:

... I *definitely* intend to hide a mocache. ... I would like nothing better than to be able to *thank* my fellow cachers for supporting my favorite community site. This will give me a way to do that. ...

The choice is, "Do I have a way to make an *additional* extra-special cache for the people I have grown to consider my friends, or is there nothing I can do to thank them?"

...

-NK/ClayJar


 

This is exaclty how I feel too... I will continue to place caches, a small fraction of which will be for subscribers only. And when I place those, I'm really going to put the extra effort in!

 

I think this is a good change for the game. It's giving us some options that I think will work out for the best.

 

-fractal

 

ps.. just kidding about the turning into an elitist snob thing icon_wink.gif

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Guest Opus P

and other things can give me little things (like members-only prices to classical music concerts, exclusive open-houses, and Car Talk mugs)


 

Excellent analogy! I haven't given to public radio or TV, though I do watch/listen regularly (I know, I know, I should give). Anyway, I've wanted to go to a couple of sponsored events, but they were available to "members only." Made sense there, and makes sense here too.

 

Everyone can still participate, but supporters get some extra stuff. That's the way the world works. Just like I'd love to go into the "Captain's Club" or whatever they call it at the airport. But I can't because I'm not a frequent flyer member. Doesn't mean I can't fly, I just can't go in that club room. This is the same thing.

 

I hate to repeat myself, but this is the way the world works.

 

I pay $46.50 a year to be a member of the Jaycees (watch for a future themed cache), and I get a few events a year that are for members only, but most of our things are open to the community. Same thing.

 

If you don't want to join the club, then you'll still have the public features to use, if you join the club, you'll get the benefits. This is no more "two-tiered" than any of these other examples. I could go on all day (looks like I almost did), but I hope people are getting the point. Ok, one more, the local Elks club may have a park, or a lodge, that's normally open to the public, but if they have a members only event, am I being denied if I can't go?

 

Seems like a silly argument.

 

------------------

 

Opus P

Crathvaf Ehyr

Visit my Buddhist Reading Room.

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Guest navdog

My money is on its way!

 

Thanks Jeremy for everything you have done to make this site so comprehensive and enjoyable. I am happy to be able to support it with a small membership fee and I'm looking forward to some great new features.

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Guest Opus P

quote:
Originally posted by Julie:

. . . [Am] I paying someone to host my content, or am I providing my services for free to someone who is making money off of me? It's a very fine line and I'm just not sure which side I fall on.


 

I don't think it's a fine line at all. I think you're posting your information on a web site for others to view. If you pay or not, you can still post the info. The payment is simply to keep available a place to post that info. If you want a place to post the info, isn't it nice to know that a place will be available? Just like there are places where you can have a free e-mail address or web page, you can also pay if you want to have it without ads. If that site lists your web site, that you paid for, in their directory, are they making money off your content? Nope. Not here either.

 

This is a communal activity, and the community needs a home. The free rent period may end completely some day, we should consider ourselves lucky that the site will still be available for free and that payment is an option. A less dedicated person might have made payment mandatory.

 

------------------

 

Opus P

Crathvaf Ehyr

Visit my Buddhist Reading Room.

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Guest Choberiba

quote:
Originally posted by nlazarus:

I plan on sending in my $30.00


 

I don't think anyone who's used the site for more than a week can claim that it's not worth $30 a year to access.

 

This is a great site. This is probably the best implementation of information the WWW I've seen yet, in that it allowed an activity that might not have existed otherwise, to flourish.

 

The very first time I logged in here, I mean the very first time.... I emptied my PayPal account of it's balance of $9.25 and sent it in as a donation.

 

I vote with my wallet and I vote often.

I've since sent in another $20, because frankly I was feeling like the original $9.25 was no longer enough to cover my usage.

 

Here's what's rubbing me at the moment though. Not that I've sent in money, I'll gladly send in more to this site and others.

 

What bothers me is that someone who never gave anything previously out of sheer gratitude, will now be rewarded with "charter membership" for doing what they should have long ago.

 

I'd like previous donations to apply to this and I feel strongly about that. I'm 75 cents short of $30, and while I can easily chip in another $20, I don't feel all that thrilled about having to cough up another $30.

 

Jeremy, this is important to me.

 

If I'm not sounding fair or rational I want to hear about it.

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Guest mtnsteve

The last time I subscribed to a "pay for" internet site I was taken to the cleaners (anyone remember PhotoPoint, those *%#&^%@%%$#*^$# jerks)

 

Jeremy, on the other hand, I think I can trust.

 

I have gotten a lot of satisfaction from the Geocaching web site, and I am willing to support it................

 

Thanks for all your hard work Jeremy!

 

------------------

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quote:
Originally posted by Jake.Hazelip:

My only real question about this whole thing is the travel bugs. How will a travel bug's travels be seen by the freebies when it's in a members-only cache?


Good point. I guess it would just have to list it for non-members as "in cache" (like "in transit") without specifying where. Of course, unless it started in a mocache, I wouldn't put it in a mocache (unless it was for a next-day pickup by another cacher or something like that).

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I am reposting this due to in the flip flop from there to here, my posting got truncated quit severely. I even threw in a couple extra lines as “interest”

 

Jeremy :

As per madphatboy2's question, How about a "team" price and/or account ?

As Red was going to drop a check in the mail for this until I talked her into using PayPal, I was wondering will this $30 cover her also, should she choose to cache, under my account but with her name?

 

Now for the "rant" part. As for the price, come on folks, how many of you spend bucks at a gym for exercise? How many of you could cover this cost by not buying one less coffee/latte each month? One less pack of smokes or box of chew ? How much are you spending right now on fuel, paper, upgrading GPSR's, upgrading computers, buying

mapping programs, buying laptops or PDA’s, getting different cell phone plans that cover more time or area, getting better hiking gear, better boots, etc, etc, etc.

 

I have wondered when, and not if, this site would HAVE to go pay to play. What did you guys think, Jeremy was related to Bill Gates or something? (are you?) This two tier thing is better then ALL PAY to play. If Jeremy had to crash out due to cost, what would you do then ? Hell, I think he needs to sell stock in this thing to cover cost. If there was enough money in it on his side, he might be able to get GPSR units in bulk and at a

discount and pass the saving along to US, the working stiff. Tell me, If this $30 now saved you $$$ down the line on a new unit, would you upgrade or replace what you now have ? Just notice all the changes those manufactures are making due specifically due to our request !!! No hula waves on 315’s now. treasure chest icons. Distance’s in feet, not tenths of miles. Hell folks, we are a power those manufactures have to deal with and

respond to, or we walk next door and get something that has what we want.

 

Look at the benefits your getting: Your outside more, Right? Your getting more physical

exercise as well as a mental work out, right ? Your exploring place's you would never have went to or even known about, right ? Your learning something everyday, nothing wrong with that, right ? For those of us with spouses, Are you doing more together ?

 

As for different levels of cache's for member level. I could care less whom finds my caches,

as long as they play by the rules. If I run into troubles with a cache, It will be due mostly to where I placed it and not who hunted it. If any body is finding "Gnarly Dude" on accident, they are crazier then I am and they deserve what ever they want from the cache. I will hunt caches on an intrigue level verses a "better then yours" attitude no matter which site the are listed at. Put a time limit on a members only cache. After 60 days, it drops down to the public access page or something like that.

 

As for the icon, Myself I could care less if it is there but if the perception of “ I am better than you due to I have an ICON “ thing is what will split this group apart, I vote to leave it off. Anybody want to start a poll on that subject ?

 

I drive around 1,000 miles a week forth and back to work. This game helps to break up the monotony of driving up and down, up and down.

Long rant but my nickels worth.

 

One last question. How many of you have made some new life long type friends, in person or just through cahts and e-mails, from this game? Isn't that enough alone for your $30 ?

 

Take it or leave it, and My money is in the mail or on the web or somewhere. logscaler

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I'm glad to see only a few "nay-sayers" in this thread, a lot of positive cachers and cachers with postiive suggestions.

 

Anyone who doesn't appreciate the work Jeremy has done over the last year plus is out-of-the-loop as far as I'm concerned.

 

The game continues as before and some folks can get extras for a small sum. I'm in.

 

For those who are complaining, go to one of the competitive sites. See how productive they are for your good.

 

Ron (54 hidden/148 found)

Caching since Feb. 2001

 

I've never been lost. Fearsome confused sometimes, but never lost.

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quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:

Jeremy :

As per madphatboy2's question, How about a "team" price and/or account ?

As Red was going to drop a check in the mail for this until I talked her into using PayPal, I was wondering will this $30 cover her also, should she choose to cache, under my account but with her name?


Logscaler, take a look at my idea on Page 4 (first one by "ClayJar"). It's a possibility that *in my exceedingly humble opinion* just *might* fit into Jeremy's idea of what works. Anyway, see what you think about it, and maybe we'll upgrade it from an idea to a request. icon_wink.gif

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Sometimes you just have to go with your gut feeling on things like this.

 

My first response to reading the first post about subscriptions was this...

 

"D***N another good thing spoiled."

 

It immediately reduced my interest in Geocaching by half, at least. Was this a valid judgement? It didn't really matter. The damage was already done.

 

I am in no way questioning Jeremy's great work on the site, but, as the recent discussions have shown, the interjection of "business" into Geocaching.com brings the introduction of "politics" and, I fear, will bring an untimely end to people's enjoyment of the sport.

 

What was the harm of keeping this site as a 1 server, slow access, bailing wire and duct tape operation? Why did it need to expand into a business at all? I wish Jeremy all the success in his life and career, but I worry that commercializing Geocaching may end up destroying what he (and all of us) have here.

 

Already I am seeing energy that was once used to generate neat cache ideas and helping newcomers enjoy the sport being turned to the creation of political camps and a major fragmentation of the community that existed here only one day ago.

 

It is not difficult to see where this will all end. I have seen it happen before with other "communities" when someone, not always the founder, has tried to commercialize the community. What was once fun becomes work and the community is shattered.

 

I would really hate to see that happen here, but my experience has shown me that that road (the fragmenting of the community) is too easily followed.

 

Douglas

 

I make computing clear!

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quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

To offset these costs, a subscription service over using annoying mega size ads and popunder ads seemed like a good option.


 

It would be great if things could stay free forever, but I'd much rather pay $3 per month rather than having to put up with those damned ads on yet another site. To be honest, I don't even care whether there are other features for members only. I get a lot of enjoyment out of this hobby so why shouldn't I pay? I pay for everything else that is entertainment! This is less than the cost of 2 CDs I'll be bored with in 6 months! Jeremy has put an insane amount of hours into this and it's mostly because of him that this whole thing exists. I don't see how it makes any sense for him to be paying for machines and everything else out of his pocket! I think most people would have turned this into a money making endeavour a long, long, long time ago... Let's start supporting the site so it doesn't go away! icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Julie:

I don't mind paying for value-add services, I'm just worried about the "Members Only" caches and "MyPop!" discussion boards restricting the propagation of information.


 

Actually I do not mind the idea of "Member Only" caches as much as some. Caches are not going to disappear and most caches would probably not be "Member Only," but I could see the appeal of placing a "Member Only" cache if there was someone specifically targeting my caches for plunder. I could also see a number of other reasons for creating member caches, but I doubt that member caches would ever approach the number of non-member caches.

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At times I still feel like a newbee at this sport.

 

I've been considering the fee...

 

What I have felt the most proud about with this sport was what it representes/represented. Generousity. A website available to all. People who are willing to share a prize both tangible and intangible. Just to think of it still makes me smile. People are placing these boxes for anyone to find "with no strings attached". In addition to that the participants get to exercise "in the real" (not a gym where you run on never ending turf like a trained rodent) and the pay off for that isn't just swet but places that you have other wise never discovered; an awesome way in a hectic lifestyle to really "stop and smell the roses".

 

So in a way the fee makes me a bit sad. A bit of the generousity is gone but at the same time I acknowledge reality. I would much rather pay a fee to support a sport I endorse than to be faced with an endless array of advertisements. It used to be that surfing the web conjured up the feeling of "surfing" from one intrest/knowledge stream to another unincumbered...Now it's like riding on the thruway with billboards at every turn. And then there is the spam and various other varieties of mail that comes through..Daily various pieces of "inappropriate mail" pops up....and nothing I have done has stopped it.......So if the fee will allow this site to continue unincumbered by adversitements.....great I'm for it.

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Ok, I'm a bit lost. This morning was the first I knew about this membership thing. When I log in , I log in directly to my home page & no where is there any mention of this whole thing! I only saw it on the forums. Then tonight the entire forum setup is different. It's a real pain to have to click on "next" to go to the next page to read more posts. It was much easier to just scroll down. Also, the "next" for posts is near the "next" for topics which really screwed me up!

Now are there 2 bulletin boards or just one? Are there 2 geocache sites, one for paying & one for non paying members? Plus, when I click on PAYPAL my browser just spins & spins! & just what the heck is PopIt ????

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When Edison, Bell and other inventors presented their creations to the public, do you think they every imagined what they would turn in to?

 

Who knows what new things Jeremy will come up with. He knows some of them, but I suggest even he doesn't know what the future holds.

 

Ron (54 hidden/148 found)

 

I've never been lost. Fearsome confused sometimes, but never lost.

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Wow, quite a few opinions and here and I agree with several, both pro and con. My first thought was that I've never paid for anything internet-related other than my ISP so why should I start now... My second thought was that if a user fee of $30/yr would keep those awful pop-up ads away, it'd be worth it.

 

I'm still ambivalent, but I'm leaning towards coughing up the $$$. We've only found one cache (just *discovered* the game about a month ago) but had a great time and also introduced two other families to the sport. My sister (one of the families that went with us) is now planning on purchasing her own GPS for the sole purpose of geocaching.

 

One of the main reasons I'd be willing to pay for membership would be the mocaches (I think a new geoterm has been created here). Even though we've only been on one cache hunt (successful BTW), we've already been thinking of hiding our own. Like most, we'd certainly be willing to hide caches that would be accessible to all. But we've also had several interesting cache ideas that we've decided against because of the risk of plunder. I'd love to be able to have complete faith in my fellow man but unfortunately, I've been let down too many times in the past. I'd never hide what I would consider a *junk* cache. But if I'm going to put a considerable amount of time, effort, and yes, $$$ into a cache, I'd like to have a reasonable expectation that it's not going to be stolen or vandalized. I know that the vast majority of geocachers are legit but it only takes one bad apple to ruin a cache not only for the cache-owner, but also for those looking for it after it has vanished or been ruined.

 

All-in-all $30/yr doesn't seem like an outrageous investment. I've certainly paid more for less.

 

Hoosiermom - team leader of GeoStars

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Clayjar -

 

Confession time: I actually got an e-mail from Jeremy in response to an e-mail I sent him asking him what we could do to alleviate the plundering that seems so rampant these days. His response was that he would soon be implementing all the things that have come out this week.

 

When I started discussing that in the forums, I was hoping to provide some pre-release feedback for Jeremy, although I didn't know he would be coming in. I sent him an e-mail mentioning that I might be bringing it up, but I was surprised (though probably not as much as others were) when he actually showed up to see what was being said.

 

So there you go.

 

bunkerdave

6327_1600.gif

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quote:

Is there anyone out there who has had experience with sponsorships/advertising? I see folks suggest it as an alternative to subscriptions, but I'm curious to know how many of them actually had experience with it. In my experience, it hasn't been a realistic alternative.

 

Garmin has been pretty good at introducing new folks to the sport, as well as adding two geocaching icons to their units. So they have done something for the sport, albeit it ultimately sells their units.

 


 

There have been several posts regarding Garmin and Magellan contributing to geocaching.com. Jeremy has suggested that manufacturers have been reluctant to advertise simply because they are already selling to a "sold" crowd. The mindset seems to be that geocachers will buy their products anyway. Therefore, the key is to create competition between the manufacturers. It is certain that Garmin and Magellan are more interested in pleasing existing customers and creating new ones, than they are in contributing to this web site. Therefore, the manufacturer’s focus would have to be placed on the customer.

 

Perhaps geocaching.com could be a vehicle to do this as part of the Charter Subscription Membership. Using the logic of perks in the Charter Membership suggestion, it is essential to maximize the perks as much as possible, and to add value.

 

Adding in a perk from the manufacturers may be a solution to involve those manufacturers. The suggestion is this: Find out if the GPS, and / or mapping manufacturers would be interested in offering a discount or rebate to Charter Members – not only for new GPS purchases, but also on accessories for those of us who already have a GPS. Garmin already has an online store set up and could possibly incorporate a discount or rebate fairly easily (although they only sell accessories, and would have to find a way to involve retailers for GPS units). Magellan does not have an online store, therefore it would be more difficult. This would create competition, and Magellan would have to find a way to compete. Yes, the manufacturer that does this could just raise their retail price to offset the discount, but I think that would be unlikely, as it would make the whole scenario a futile effort. Example: Buy a Charter Member subscription for $30 and receive a $10, $20, or $30 discount from the manufacturer on a new GPS or accessory. Geocaching.com benefits from it’s members…the way it should be…the members benefit from the manufacturer as a customer…the way it should be…and the manufacturer benefits with more market share and sales. Everybody wins. As a side note, I am not biased towards either Garmin or Magellan, they both make excellent products, however, Garmin has already expressed geocaching support on their site. It would be nice to see them extend that support as described above. In return, geocaching.com could offer an advertising/sponsor spot to the participating manufacturer at a reasonable price. I thought this through as much as I could, and I am impressed with the intelligence of geocachers in these forums. Please post potential flaws or suggestions to this scenario.

 

[This message was edited by rocopic on March 06, 2002 at 11:27 PM.]

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First off I do want to thank Jeremy for being democratic enough to allow people (myself included) to post negative things about his new idea on this site.

 

I also want to point out something that I feel may not be fully understood from those people who do not believe that this is a good idea (I don't pretend to speak for all of us). It ISN'T TRULY about the money. Yes, I am a struggling student (actually just graduated and trying to get into grad school cause my degree is worthless without a DR.,), yes the charge would hurt, BUT that is not what most of us I think are complaining about. Heck I wouldn't complain about a $60 a year fee as long as it didn't include mocaches, by the same lines I would still complain about a $10 a year fee if it did include mocaches. Why? Because as "Douglas E. Welch", myself, and others have stated before it is the commercialization of geocaching that is bad. I think almost all of the "naysayers" here are not against Jeremy making money on the site, like I said before heck I'd like to see him be able to make a living off of it. BUT geocaching WAS NOT invented by Jeremy (for whoever talked about Edison and all). THE SITE WAS like I said (I know I'm repeating myself but I feel some are missing the point). I have no problem with the charter member icon, specialized abilites, yada yada, it's the commercilization of the core of the sport that bothers me. Geocaching is a grassroots thing, made possible by fellow cachers.

 

The idea of paying for a cache to me goes against all the reasons I fell in love with geocaching. Yes I would like added security, i've done some caches that took me months to set up, but I highly doubt that this new service will offer any real security (other's have spoken to why). In addition I know that several newbies who I introduced to the sport a few weeks ago are rather put off by the whole idea, when I explained it to them as a "grassroots" though I didn't use that word, activity where locals put out caches they loved the idea. They have since come to me concerned about the entire thing, they haven't found a cache yet, but they kind of see it as a business now. I honestly believe mocaches are bad for the sport. On the same lines people have mentioned that they won't become caching elitists, I'm sure they won't they then go on to mention that they will put extra time and money into mocaches (here's the problem, I realize it is their cache to do whatever they want with, heck some of my caches I wish could have more protection but like I said I don't see the membership offering any real protection. Plus if I put my cache in that took me months to create then newer cachers would never get the chance to do it, yeah they could do my other ones and yes those (I believe and others have emailed me saying as much) are good, but they pale in comparisson to my best one. Now taking away the premium cache I did (or any others I plan on doing) steals so much from the caching community. This is breaking down what I loved about caching (i know I've repeated this several times). It's not about change, it's not about paying $30, it's about the loss of what was great and the commercialization of it.

 

It's not so much the actual thing as it is THE PRINCIPLE of the thing.

 

I also kind of dislike the attitude by some here that anyone who is against this is somehow unappreciative of Jeremy or doesn't trust him. Like I said I have no problem with him making money. It's not that I don't trust Jeremy with pay caches (mocaches) it's that I feel Business should not have to do with the actual caching part of the sport at all. I wouldn't want anyone even my closest friends to be in charge of pay caches or profit from pay caches, I don't distrust Jeremy once again it's just the Principle of the thing. And please don't reply with principles don't pay the bills. If the mocaches were to be eliminated (I know some of the charter members may know want the mocaches just because of all the fuss the "naysayers" have caused... human nature) there wouldn't be any argument (at least from me) and plenty of people (I'm guessing) would still join.

 

So in summary IT'S the PRINCIPLE of the thing people, not the cost, not how cheap it really is compared to the amount of money some of you spend on coffee or whatever, not distrusting Jeremy, not whining, it's the Principle!!!!

 

Also I know everyone has different opinions on this matter and I respect them and everyone on this site. HOpefully this debate can continue without it getting political and poeple juming into camps or without it becoming an us and them mentality as some point out that it may.

 

Mike

 

[This message was edited by mikechim on March 07, 2002 at 12:02 AM.]

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quote:
(I don't pretend to speak for all of us)

quote:
(I know all the charter members now want the mocaches just because of all the fuss the "naysayers" have caused... human nature)

 

It’s a little presumptuous to speak for all charter members isn’t it? Speaking for myself, I want maximum exposure for my caches. The fun comes from the finds. My guess is that there will be a small flurry of mocaches show up initially, and then they will mostly fade out.

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Oopss sorry, your ABSOLUTELY RIGHT fixing that on the post, should have had "some" in there like I did for other things, as I can't speak for anyone but myself. Just got carried away... I truly didn't mean it like that to be ignorant and presumtious like that, my thoughts where flying and that's how it came out.

 

My bad

my apologies once again.

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quote:
Originally posted by ClayJar:

Hey, just in case anyone wants to read the chat logs from Monday, they are up at the usual place:

http://gcchat.clayjar.com/logs/

 

Oh, ClayJar!! You ended the log too soon. Just after Jeremy left and everybody started to really talk! I was logged in, but I had to run off to work, so I didn't get to stick around to hear what everyone had to say about it. Who are you trying to protect?

icon_wink.gif

 

I guess most people are being pretty honest about their feelings here on the forums anyway. (That's a good thing.)

 

Tyler Slack's Geocaching in Utah

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From a pure economic viewpoint, I don't see how Jeremy has been able to run the sites for free this long. After Dave Ulmer (who started the sport/hobby), nobody has had a greater impact on making this a world-wide sport than Jeremy. Even if there were no enhancements, I would support him. My 30 bucks are on the way!

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Mikechim post, a few post above, say what I tried in earlier posts on this much better than I could. I have to agree with him 100% and he said it so much more eloquently then I seem to be able too. Thanks Mike! I feel the same about the Members Only Caches.

 

But I am afraid that we (those against the Member Only Caches) are in a very small minority. (Please do not make that question a poll I think that could be very divisive to the group). But even though I am against the Member Only Caches I am still for Geocaching and will not turn my back on this site just for one disagreement. I am still and will remain an active geocacher. There is more to geocaching then the fluff on the web site. I may even become a "member" (but I would never create a mocache [did you start this short name ClayJar? icon_smile.gif ]) I do like the new forums a lot and I think many of the other features are probable worth the $30 membership. I just wish Jeremy had not added/felt compelled to create the Member Only Caches. These are just my opinion and I am afraid they will fall on deaf ears, the momentum for this change is evident and probable will not be swayed. Nonetheless I have made my objections know and have stressed out enough about this. What will be will be and I will just watch were it goes. Thank for reading and whatever you do find time to find a cache. I already have plans for at least two this weekend.

 

Good luck hunting

mcb

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I would have to say that I would NOT be able to pay.

 

My wife does not like to travel too much. She hates spending a couple of hours in the van. Add to that one 11-month old child and one on the way in a few months. My oportunities for caching are limited.

 

Simply put, I only have opportunity to find about 5 or 6 caches (at most) a year. $36 seems to me to be a bit much to pay for this. My county does not have a lot of caches (and half of the ones that it does have require a boat, which I don't have).

 

Maybe you could have an option for $1.00 fee for each cache found???

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quote:
Originally posted by harrkev:

Maybe you could have an option for $1.00 fee for each cache found???


That's the funniest thing about the $30/year plan.

 

I've been telling people to donate a buck a cache in support of the site for about four months now.

 

At my going rate, Jeremy just *REDUCED* my planned contribution by about $80 a year.

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I've been bugging Jeremy for months to setup an added level of service. I don't expect to get extra features for free!

 

What I want now is a GCCM forum to discuss what we would like to see on the cache. For example, I want to be able to download an entire state/province .loc file at once. This is something I'd expect to have to be a member to do!

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quote:
Originally posted by mrcpu:

For example, I want to be able to download an entire state/province .loc file at once.


 

This is something that would be used to differentiate a membership, but newbies could still be involved in the sport. I don't mind people paying for extra features and conveniences. However, this sport is about caching. You shouldn't have to pay for that.

 

I am greatly opposed to the idea of "member-only" caches. I, too, feel that it is elitism. I can imagine future posts on this forum. "Hey, I found a cool cache ". Then I click on it just to find that I can't access it.

 

To me, it is not really about the money. $30 would not send me to the poorhouse. However, I regularly read www.dilbert.com, www.userfriendly.com, www.zdnet.com, slashdot.org, and others. If each one of them started charging $30, my internet bill would go up real fast. If I were the type of person who bagged two caches a week, then it would be worth it to me. As it is, I can bag a cache every two months. $30 would be a bad investment for that.

 

If one of the reasons for charging money is the need for more servers. Here is an idea...

 

Have two servers dedicated for "non-paying" people. If the bandwidth is used up, then they just have to wait. Have a dozen servers for paying people. You could also implement a rule that all "members only" caches revert to a normal cache after two weeks.

 

I realize that I am just a small voice in a howling wind, but I just wanted to express my opinion.

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

I don't have a strong feeling about subscription. It's a free country and a free market.

 

But, I predict that, as implemented, the cash flow generated will be but a trickle.

 

-jjf


 

... and it's still free to geocache ... read what the man has stated ... IT'S STILL FREE ... if you want to participate in helping to support it ... then send some money ... with the growth of this activity ... it will need funds to grow. That's all ... but it will be more than a trickle ...

 

Hey ... besides that ... how do you going to know if you want to do this unless you get out and hunt a cache!?!? Even just one! Not to rag on you ... but to quote the Sec. of Agriculture from many years ago ... when asked about the Pope's view on birth control .... he stated "he no play-a the game, he no maka the rules". icon_biggrin.gif

 

I smell rabid hamster ... icon_eek.gif

 

348_1002.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by harrkev:

Originally posted by harrkev:

....

 

To me, it is not really about the money. $30 would not send me to the poorhouse. However, I regularly read http://www.dilbert.com, http://www.userfriendly.com, http://www.zdnet.com, slashdot.org, and others. .


 

Good stuff costs money. Your examples:

 

Dilbert: you can get a free subscrition to the cartoon every day. Try and download the whole set and put it on a web site and Dilbert.com will hunt you down with a cease and desist. They want to sell the cartoon to newspapers and so try to make the cartoon desirable on their web site.

 

Userfriendly: is in the business of web hosting for money. They have one free search feature.

 

ZDnet: Drown in advertisement while you read Coursey's inanities.

 

Slashdot: The advertisements are so bad they think you will pay 5 bucks to look at one thousand ad free pages. Good luck to them.

 

Any others?

 

All of the infromation you derive from those sites can be collected from many other web sites. Geocaching.com right now is unique.

 

1.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Morrison WaylandersMA:

 

Good stuff costs money. Your examples:

 

Dilbert: you can get a free subscrition to the cartoon every day. Try and download the whole set and put it on a web site and Dilbert.com will hunt you down with a cease and desist. They want to sell the cartoon to newspapers and so try to make the cartoon desirable on their web site.

 

Userfriendly: is in the business of web hosting for money. They have one free search feature.

 

ZDnet: Drown in advertisement while you read Coursey's inanities.

 

Slashdot: The advertisements are so bad they think you will pay 5 bucks to look at one thousand ad free pages. Good luck to them.


 

At least Slashdot hasn't proposed the ideas of "members only articles."

 

All of your above examples are true. However, I am used to advertising. I have to sit through 15 minutes of advertisements every time I watch an episode of Enterprise. Would you pay for an ad-free superbowl? It is part of the game, and it does not really bother me. And if you get HBO, Showtime or Pay-per-view, when do you find time to run to the restroom or make popcorn?

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quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:

 

[snip]

Hey ... besides that ... how do you going to know if you want to do this unless you get out and hunt a cache!?!? Even just one! Not to rag on you ... but to quote the Sec. of Agriculture from many years ago ... when asked about the Pope's view on birth control .... he stated "he no play-a the game, he no maka the rules". icon_biggrin.gif

 

I smell rabid hamster ... icon_eek.gif


 

1. Finds with my daughters is up to about 22. They are 11 and 8 and use only map and compass (well, 4-5 exceptions). I don't bother much with geocaching when I'm out sans kids, because I'd rather be climbing.

 

The girls are allowed to sign the log, but we don't trade and we don't post (they are 'their' finds, not mine, but accounts and posting would be outside our house internet rules).

 

2. I'd already subscribed before I posted. I hadn't yet bothered to 'activate'.

 

3. I provide a free site that is now serving up about 1500 maps a day to outdoor enthusiasts, many for geocachers. www.lostoutdoors.com

 

4. I am many things, but I am not a hamster. The smell must be from the hot air. If it is a matter of cost, I'll buy you a toothbrush... icon_wink.gif

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

 

1. Finds with my daughters is up to about 22. They are 11 and 8 and use only map and compass (well, 4-5 exceptions). I don't bother much with geocaching when I'm out sans kids, because I'd rather be climbing.

 

The girls are allowed to sign the log, but we don't trade and we don't post (they are 'their' finds, not mine, but accounts and posting would be outside our house internet rules).

 

2. I'd already subscribed before I posted. I hadn't yet bothered to 'activate'.

 

3. I provide a free site that is now serving up about 1500 maps a day to outdoor enthusiasts, many for geocachers. http://www.lostoutdoors.com

 

4. I am many things, but I am not a hamster. The smell must be from the hot air. If it is a matter of cost, I'll buy you a toothbrush... icon_wink.gif

 

-jjf


 

I deeply apologize ... thou are not a hamster ... but I assumed nothing ... your profile as you state, is correct ... 0 finds/ 0 caches.

 

Your ladies seem to have learned to use a map and compass very well ... that's impressive ... that they are able to do that at that age. I enjoy that myself ... but I've done that sort of thing a long time ... I'm a little confused by the trade and post rule ... but I'm sure they enjoy it the way you do it. And I am familiar with who you are and your web site (very nice by the way) .... so, not much more to add.

 

I stand by my post ... except you are not a rabid hamster .... and a big thanks for your contribution to the cause even though you seem to doubt it will successfully fund itself.

 

Oh, thanks for the offer of the toothbrush ... but I have my own icon_biggrin.gif

 

Ciao ... icon_biggrin.gif

 

348_1002.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by harrkev:

I have to sit through 15 minutes of advertisements every time I watch an episode of Enterprise. Would you pay for an ad-free superbowl? It is part of the game, and it does not really bother me. And if you get HBO, Showtime or Pay-per-view, when do you find time to run to the restroom or make popcorn?


 

Ah-ha! ... that's why I got a ReplayTV!!! Zip through commercials in an instant. Pause live TV to answer the door/telephone/the call of nature/refill the snack bowl. Time is money to me, not that I watch a lot of TV. But, having a PVR has revolutionized my viewing experience.

 

Cheers ...

 

Rich in NEPA

 

1132_1000.jpg

 

=== A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ===

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I like the new sport of geocaching and if it costs a few bucks to play I'll try my hand. So far I've been happy with this site and maybe I'll see more with the new add on. It sure is nicer than being in front of a TV all day long.

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quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:

 

[snip]

 

Your ladies seem to have learned to use a map and compass very well ... that's impressive ... that they are able to do that at that age. I enjoy that myself ... but I've done that sort of thing a long time ... I'm a little confused by the trade and post rule ... but I'm sure they enjoy it the way you do it. And I am familiar with who you are and your web site (very nice by the way) .... so, not much more to add.

 

[snip]

 


 

Well, my oldest first tried ice climbing when she was 6 (top roped, of course), and has been our official family navigator since a backpacking/climbing trip to Sandia Peak 3 or so years ago. So orienteering is nothing new for her, or her sister.

 

The no trade/no post are linked, but double purpose. We have a current 'no web accounts/personal info' type rule in place, primarily because of a prior problem. The 'official' reason for the no-trade policy is that "since you can't post what you take and leave, people won't know what goodies you've taken".

 

Really, I'm just keeping the goodies out of it until the thrill of the hunt gets stale (if it does). For my oldest, a log is nothing new. There are logbooks at the top of some classic climbs (Durrance Route (Devil's Tower), The Mace (Cathedral Rock), etc.) and we've always made a big deal out of signing them.

 

FWIW, I'll probably be in N.C. within a year or so. I promised a friend that once he got well, we'd retake a road trip from our reckless youth (though it should be a lot less reckless with our firstborn in tow). One of our stops would be the Grandfather Mountain area (near Boone), though most of the area is now closed for climbing. And we definately have to revisit Stone Mountain State Park near Cherry Lane/Elkin (personally, I think it is the best (and scariest) slab climbing in North America). There used to be a Mountain Rescue School nearby, but I'm not sure if it is still there.

 

In any event, I'll be sure to stash a cache or two - and post them, just for you. Seriously, I could live without 'Blue Demons' dunking in my face, and I'll never visit the Golf Hall of Fame, but NC is some pretty country.

 

-jjf

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I am all for paying a bit for extra services, and those who commented that super-sizing the meal, or the beer with dinner that we take for granted probably costs more in the long run than the cost of the Members Only services...

 

Here, though, is my concern:

I am worried that the thoroughly democratic position of each and every person who takes up this sport, hides and finds caches and comments on geocaching as a whole will be lost when there are separate labels for those who paid and those who have not.

 

Will comments made by non-members be taken as seriously by those who are members in the forums? Will extra weight be given to suggestions made by members with the boss (Jeremy, et al)?

 

In the past, everyone's comments on these forums carried equal weight, even if they were newer to geocaching (Rabid Hamsters excluded). Of course, the comments of someone who has hidden 50 and found 200 geocaches are given more credence than someone who has little or no experience - that is a given and it is part of human nature.

 

It is also human nature to give extra credence to the concerns or comments of someone who is a "paid" or "charter member". Those who do not have the capability or desire to pay will be excluded from certain forums. It just seems like this whole thing will give rise to the "US" and "THEM" mentality. I may be wrong. Geocachers as a whole seem to be level-headed and intelligent.

 

I suppose the only way to resolve the issues that I bring up is to charge everyone, and I know that that is something that Jeremy would like to avoid.

 

Something else that concerns me that I have yet to see discussed is whether or not the cost is $30 per person or per team? Steak N Eggs and I geocache as a family/team, and yet we participate in the forums as individuals as is our right - to have separate thoughts, perceptions and viewpoints. Will we need to pay $30 each for our team and ourselves individually in order to continue posting in the forums as individuals?

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quote:
Originally posted by Choberiba:

Originally posted by Ron Streeter:

When Edison, Bell and other inventors

presented their creations to the public, do

you think they every imagined what they would

turn in to?

 

I could say the same thing about leftovers in my fridge.


 

Oh man... now THAT was worth $30/year! icon_wink.gif

 

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

 

[This message was edited by martinp13 on March 07, 2002 at 03:29 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by RedwoodRed:

 

[snip]

In the past, everyone's comments on these forums carried equal weight, even if they were newer to geocaching (Rabid Hamsters excluded)...

 

[snip]

 


 

I'm starting to take this rabid hamster thing personally. I'm wondering if I should adopt a 'signature item' of a handful of yuck from the bottom of Ratikate and Gentle Ben's cage until mesocricetus auratus, phodopus sungoris sungoris, and their related brethren get more respect...

 

-jjf

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Don't we already HAVE 'Us vs Them' situations?

 

People who have vs haven't placed caches (are you listening, Lou? icon_smile.gif). People who will vs won't do urban or multi caches. People who post/read vs don't post/read in the forum.

 

These divisions haven't killed us yet. Sure, we have our arguments about them, but those blow over.

 

I really don't understand why some people are so up-in-arms over "MOCs". So there's a few caches non-donaters can't go after! There's plenty of stuff you can't do in this world unless you pay a fee. And there's plenty you CAN do without a fee, including geocaching.

 

Over in the TiVo general forums, someone started a thread about "What you hate about Americans". The one that really got a nod from me was "entitlement". Jeremy said that basic geocaching will be free, so we are entitled to that. Woohoo! But nothing else. If he wants to set up a 800 or 900 number for automated geocaching hints, he can charge or not. We aren't entitled to that for free, unless he says so. Caches only for those who have donated to his site? That's his choice. Just because we have gotten something for free in the past doesn't mean we're entitled to it forever. People (Americans in particular) have tended to forget that. icon_frown.gif

 

While I'm in rant-mode, let me say how disappointed I am in almost everyone in this forum, including Jeremy. If someone chooses not to send $30 for whatever reason, that person is STILL a "MEMBER" of geocaching.com. I think "Charter Member" is a horrible choice of words, since it says that the person paid early, and implies that those who do not pay are not members. If you put "titles" at all, I would suggest "Friend of Geocaching" or "Jeremy's Kids" or somesuch. I consider everyone who participates in the site to be a "member", regardless of finds, hides, contributions, or GPSr brand (as long as you Garminites eventually repent icon_biggrin.gif).

 

If you've read this far, thank you for listening to a usually quiet person scream his head off. Instead or my two-cents' worth, you can consider this my thirty-dollars' worth. icon_smile.gif

 

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

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