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Pay to Play? I'd like to hear from Jeremy


Guest LindaLu

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Guest Faderaven

If premium content is not offered for paying members there will always be those that decide to slide by and let others pay for the site. Ask any website that pays for itself through donations.

 

As far as 'elite Geo-Cachers', I don't think most cache placers are going to put the majority of their caches on the premium site. They'll want people to find their cache.

 

Anyways, here comes my $30.00, Jeremy

 

 

[This message has been edited by Faderaven (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest madphatboy2

quote:
Originally posted by Faderaven:

If premium content is not offered for paying members there will always be those that decide to slide by and let others pay for the site. Ask any website that pays for itself through donations.

 

As far as 'elite Geo-Cachers', I don't think most cache placers are going to put the majority of their caches on the premium site. They'll want people to find their cache.

 

Anyways, here comes my $30.00, Jeremy

 

[This message has been edited by Faderaven (edited 05 March 2002).]


 

This may just be blowing smoke, but could someone list their cache in the non pay site and it be reached by those logged into the paysite? But of course those logged in the paysite stays in the pay site?

 

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MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

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Guest tomwsmf

A few days ago I paypaled a 25$ donnation to Geocaching.com simply because it has got my fat *** up and walking..heck hiking.

 

Now that there is a charter subscription option I have gone and paypaled for that as well.

 

Price of eTrex GPS..100$

Donations to Jermey..25$

Charter Membership...30$

Having an activity that gets me healthy, has me spending more time with my family, lets me geek in the great wide open and has , in the two weeks we have been activley looking for caches, shown us some mighty cool spots we would not have see without..

.....................Priceless

 

You keep up the great service and TeamWSMF will keep up the support.

 

-tom of TeamWSMF

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Guest barramus

My account is paid up for the next year. I just can't understand the whiny people who won't give the site and the person responsible for it a measly 3 bucks a month. I've been giving more than that through donations before. What else in this world can you do for so little money that is so much fun ? And I don't believe for a second the story that you can't afford it. You had enough to buy a GPS, a PC, internet access, a car, and fuel to put in it.

I can't even imagine how much time it takes to keep this site up and running. And then there is the real costs like Servers and Bandwidth.

Keep up the good work Jeremy and don't let the whiners get to you !

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Guest Wander Lost

Well $30 a year translates to $0.08 per day. Hum....I think I can afford that. icon_biggrin.gif

 

It's been said a few times here but I don't think it can be said enough:

 

Jeremy you do a WONDERFUL job!!! Thanks for all your efforts!

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Guest BrownMule

Already signed up. Feels good to support such a wonderful site. Look forward to many years of association and lots of fun.

 

 

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Enjoy the Outdoors,

BrownMule

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Guest Seth!

Re: Money

 

Come on, it's 30 bucks. If you don't want to pay, don't. I'm lucky enough to live near Jeremy, so I'm actually going to pay in burritos and cheese.

 

Re: Privacy

 

That's highly over-rated in my opinion. What in the heck does everyone have to hide? None of my really juicy sins are in my computer database anyway.

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Guest Kimrobin

quote:
Originally posted by Show Me The Cache:

Maybe we should offer another icon that says "I will gladly pay the price, but I do not approve of this approach".

 


 

ABSOLUTELY , you hit the nail on the head.

 

$30 is bugger all. Geocaching is worth that in a year, and I can afford it without problem but I am NOT comfortable with a system that creates second class geocachers just because they are newbies, students, seniors, disabled, unemployed, etc... you name it.

 

OK I?m happy to pay the 30 bucks, but I DON?T want a tag next to my name that says ?Charter Member?. Can we choose that option Jeremy?

 

Alex.

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Guest Scaphites

I think I remember last year the local rockshop was required to stop taking people on fieldtrips on BLM land beacause they were charging people money to go. Just something that should maybe looked into.

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Guest madphatboy2

quote:
Originally posted by Scaphites:

I think I remember last year the local rockshop was required to stop taking people on fieldtrips on BLM land beacause they were charging people money to go. Just something that should maybe looked into.


 

He's charging for use of premium benefits of HIS website, not use of someone elses, or use of the land. I'm not a lawyer, but this doesn't strike me as being against the law in any means.

 

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MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

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Guest logscaler

up and down, up and down. Long rant but my nickels worth.

 

Take it or leave it, and My money is in the mail.

 

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Remember, character is what you do when no one is watching. TTFN, logscaler

 

[This message has been edited by logscaler (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest 4America

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

The other issue, that I haven't addressed on the subscription page, is that some folks have become targets by anonymous troublemakers that like to destroy individual's caches. Subscription only caches will allow you to audit your cache to see who looked at your cache page and when. In addition, a certain amount of anonymity goes away when you subscribe, so troublemakers will either not bother subscribing or be scared to subscribe since they are no longer anonymous.

 

In addition to these two reasons, I will also be creating new geolocational entertainment services in the future that will be handled by the subscription service. Becoming a charter member now means you'll be locked in at the same rate throughout, which is always a good thing.

 

Ultimately, we'd like to do this full time, and we need to eat. So it has to come from somewhere. And believe me, this has become more than a 1 person job.

 

Jeremy


 

I understand about costs. I also wish it could all be free. If I was a golfer, how much would green fees for the 4 of us cost for one ?find?? yea, this isn?t golf,a dive trip, or a white water trip? you get the idea I am so sick of java popups I have already paid my ?subscription? fees.

 

I am happy to support geocaching.com We have bought shirts, hats, ect.. I have even on several occasions tried to contact Jeremy about the logo rights. I have even attempted to work out a licensing fee to help support geocaching.

 

I am getting ready to release a traveler ?geo_cam? a digital camera, along with all the software and cables to go with it. One of my biggest fears of this is that it gets plundered before it makes its way to geocaching.com and back again.

 

The ?members only? cache will help discourage this cache from getting plundered. So, I?ll request ?subscription? caches only.

 

I only wish Jeremy would have returned my emails. It could have been some additional funds for him.

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Guest alchemist2000

I will gladly include my $30. It is the best money I have spent for a long time, whether I get any new features or not.

 

I do want to bring up one issue that has had only one slight mention in these two topics, as best I can tell. Will you have any provision for lower rates for multiple members within the same family or perhaps no additional charge for children under a certain age? It doesn't effect me since my family is already grown and participating on their own, but it seems like there are a number of families that might enjoy having their at home kids have their own memberships. I haven't thought this through carefully and don't know if it presents other problems, but I would hate to see this be a financial burden on families that otherwise would like to share the entire experience with their kids. I know, I know, everyone can still participate on one membership or no membership at all, but I would like to hear how some parents feel about this.

 

Alchemist2000

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Guest 4America

quote:
Originally posted by BrownMule:

Already signed up. Feels good to support such a wonderful site. Look forward to many years of association and lots of fun.


 

well said!

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Guest CopperCountry

quote:
Originally posted by AZMark:

I will most likely sign up anyway. But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE say there will be Avantgo available to members, and I'll sign up in a heartbeat. Would love to pick a zip, # of caches, found or not found and be able to sync. If not Avantgo, some other means (Mazingo, Plucker etc) to get the pages into handheld (PocketPC) format.


 

I just tried setting up a manual channel in avantgo for my zip code and got the 25 nearest to come up. With a link depth of 1, I got descriptions of each cache. Of course to save space, I chose not to show images, but who needs those anyway?

 

BTW, I intend to spend my $30 and sign up.

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Guest ClayJar

Jeremy, here's just a little possible idea for you to ponder. It's not a suggestion; it's just an "if you're thinking about it, try this angle" idea.

 

For the team/family cachers, would it be possible for you to include a "Log this cache as another user" link on the members-only caches? The family would only need one membership, and that membership would give them the benefits (batch downloads, members-only searches, etc), but if Jesse Cacher wanted to add her log to a cache she found with her dad Johnny Cacher, he could log in and click the "Log this cache as another user" link and let her add her log (of course, there'd be a space for username and password on the log entry page).

 

Only the member would be able to list the "premium" cache, and the member would have to log in on the computer to get the "log as another user" link, so it shouldn't cause an end-run around membership. It would, however, allow families to subscribe once and still all log. (Oh, and you could save the nick of the premium member who let the non-member log, if you wanted to maintain "verifiable" identity.)

 

Anyway, just an idea.

 

[This message has been edited by ClayJar (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest Jake.Hazelip

If you want to send your $30 without a membership, go ahead. Feel free. Those of us who will join are going to enjoy the benefits of our memberships. If you don't like the way it works, you're free to start your own letterboxing or navicache or geopoint site out of your own pocket and deal with random anonymous people telling you how you should run *your* site.

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Guest madphatboy2

CJ, that's a wonderful idea.

 

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MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

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Guest exConn

quote:
Originally posted by Kimrobin:

OK I?m happy to pay the 30 bucks, but I DON?T want a tag next to my name that says ?Charter Member?. Can we choose that option Jeremy?


 

You've been able to choose that option forever. It's easy to donate $30 right now on the main page. No subscription was ever needed. Obviously that system didn't work well enough or we wouldn't even be discussing subscriptions.

 

If Jeremy came on here and said, "Look, I don't have the money to keep up with hardware/software, increased traffic etc. and am asking for a $3/month or $30/year donation for maintenance and upgrades" without the added features, I believe that most if not all of the people in this thread and the other one would still contribute (and Jeremy would add these extra features anyways - as he's always done).

 

The added features are just icing...

 

About privacy - Jeremy's not going to give out your name, address, and telephone. It's just a way of seeing the users who access your cache.

 

About members only caches - I just don't see there being a whole lot of these anyways. Time will tell. But there definately won't be enough of them to impact the traditional geocaches in my opinion.

 

I don't get the whole "second class geocacher" argument. Some will pony up the $30 to support the site and get some extra features. And those who don't still continue to play for free and in the same manner as they always have. What's wrong with that?..

 

-exConn

 

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What is Project Virginia?

 

[This message has been edited by exConn (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest LindaLu

I post a question before work and come home and a zillion responses! Cool.

 

Thanks, Jeremy, for responding. I had heard from others (on this site as well as others, and on alt.rec.geocaching--which seems to have quite a few anti-geocaching.com people). Anyways, I appreciate the responses.

 

My main question was "Where is this heading?" and I'm guessing you don't really know for sure, long-term (which isn't that long in cyberspace). But I figure if the facts are put out there, people can make their own decisions on what to do.

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Guest ClayJar

Oh... one more thing... it'll be easy to change from a members-only cache to a public-access cache, right? (The other way would seem unethical, as it *would* be taking away live caches, but *adding* live caches by "releasing" members-only caches would seem quite fair indeed.)

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Guest dewelch

ching) let's see your cash up front." Not a very good way to start a realtionship.

 

3. I am sure Jeremy has considered this, but paying users expect a lot more than those who are using a free service. every outage, every delayed cache posting, every complaint about a "bad" cache is going to find its way to his door. Where today's users may be willing to let things slide, paying users will not. Worse yet, unless the membership benefits during this first year are totally boffo, very few people will re-up just to help Jeremy out. Once you start a professional relationship, you can never go back.

 

4. I have an issue with my efforts as a volunteer, i.e. hiding caches, being used to generate income for someone else. For example, after 8+ years volunteering at a Forest Service Visitors Center, I stopped when they instituted usage fees in the forests.

 

5. I am concerned that as a low to moderate level hiker that most memebrs-only caches will have too high a terrain requirement. This reduces the membership benefits to someone like myself only due to my hiking abilities, or lack thereof. icon_smile.gif

 

6. No one likes to be excluded. Multi-tier membership schemes are guaranteeed to hurt people's feelings. That can't be avoided.

 

While I don't think $30 is an outrageous sum of money, the vagueness of the membership benefits and the general feeling that Geocaching is a hobby, not a business, will give me much opportunity to pause before I pay.

 

Sell merchandise, sell organized geocaching trips, sell GPS units, sell anything related to the sport, create a seperate site for a private club, but don't be inclined to commercialize the information that helps people enjoy the sport. Doing so generate bad feelings that are likely to doom the business itself, if not the sport.

 

Douglas

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Guest mikechim

quote:
Originally posted by kablooey:

This addresses my primary worry. I fear that the best caches will be marked as members-only caches, leading to a kind of geocaching elitism. Even if Mr. Cache Hider continues to place plenty of 1/1 caches, he's going to make his ultracool 4/3 cache members-only, so that he can audit it closely and make sure that it doesn't get vandalized. If it gets to the point where newbies only have the Sneaker Cache to chase after, we won't be in very good shape.

 


 

This is my primary concern as well. I am trying to keep an open mind and like I said before I understand the increased costs and all as well as wanting to do this full time, Jeremy was the first one to set up a large site and was also a key force behind the growth of the game. I have complemented him and the site in threads in these forums. That being said (putting on my abestos boxers because I'm probably going to upset people) even though I realize the price is not unreasonable (although for many college students it's not easy, and no I don't waste money one beer, coffee, eating out etc) it is the whole notion behind pay for play (something which I believe was promised would never happen). Like I said I have no problem with people paying for bells and whistles, for their own discussion board, for enhanced logging (anyway read my former post) but for caches I don't feel it's right. I realize this is Jeremy's site and he can do whatever the heck he wants with it. But this is OUR game. (putting on more fireproof clothing). If Jeremy had invented it (and i realized he has done tons for it) or placed every cache himself then I could say paying to find a cache.

The argument that if you don't like it start your own site, really is somewhat of a mute point. Geocaching.com pretty much IS geocaching, it's like telling the general population (I know a lot of you are computer guys and use Unix and Linux and probably have that little penquin guy on your desk somewhere) to make their own operating system instead of using windows. Geocaching.com pretty much has the monopoly on geocaching, yes I know their are other sites but they do not have nearly the amount of traffic or listed caches as this one does. Newbies often only know of this site. Like I said I know this is Jeremy's site and he is free to do whatever he wants, but it is also OUR game, it's grassroots and not commercial (which is the beautiful thing about it).

Again let me say Jeremy thank you for what you have done, and I realize this is YOUR site, but is there not any alternatives? What about offering all the things you metnioned without the member caches, or what about having advertisements that come up if you are a non-member? Ok hopefully I didn't state my position to forcefully and upset all of you.

 

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"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

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Guest ClayJar

Wow... all this fuss over getting a "membership reward" for donating to my favorite site. NPR, public tv, my favorite local non-profit station, and other things can give me little things (like members-only prices to classical music concerts, exclusive open-houses, and Car Talk mugs), why can't my favorite web site give me electronic membership rewards (I don't need any more trinkets or t-shirts). icon_biggrin.gif

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Guest mikechim

quote:
Originally posted by ClayJar:

Oh... one more thing... it'll be easy to change from a members-only cache to a public-access cache, right? (The other way would seem unethical, as it *would* be taking away live caches, but *adding* live caches by "releasing" members-only caches would seem quite fair indeed.)


 

That seems better, then after some time the premiere members could "release" if you will their caches, so everyone has good caches. Honestly I'm still against the idea of paying for caches in any way shape or form, since it is something put out by everyone. That being said though I can appreciate ClayJars point about getting something for donating, which is why I see no problem with the other member benefits. Anyway settled down a bit from that last post.

 

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"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

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mber or not, I have four caches ready and waiting for a seasonal change so they can be placed and posted. They will be open to all Cachers with the soul intent of enjoyment of the hobby. The seeker finding (or not finding), and me sharing in their experience in the logs. I also have a multi-cache that I have been extensively planning since October that I hope will be remembered and one of the years best caching experiences. This cache will also be open to all seekers. With the exception of what I listed in my earlier post, I can't think of a reason I would put a 'Member Only' out. If I did, it would be a cache that I wouldn't have placed otherwise. The only caches that come to my mind would be extra, not 'instead of'.

 

There is NO two tier system here in my mind. A cacher is a cacher as far a I'm concerned. I will not treat any cacher with less respect than I have for them now just because they aren't a charter member. I will choose my way of supporting this site with the options available. You choose your way of supporting this site with the options available. The important thing here is to keep supporting the site.

 

If the concerns voiced here start to become reality, you can bet I will be one of the first to speak up. Until then, this site has earned a certain level of trust with me and I am willing to see where this goes.

 

geosign.gif

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Guest SwampBuggy

quote:
Originally posted by ClayJar:

Wow... all this fuss over getting a "membership reward" for donating to my favorite site.


 

As long as the membership rewards don't include premium caches listed on geocaching.com, there really isn't that big of a problem. From what I've read, pretty much anything else goes.

 

I don't even mind the idea of premium caches as long as it's a seperate site. This one should remain all inclusive.

 

It's really that simple.

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Guest Julie

quote:
Originally posted by dewelch:

A few points...


 

Thank you reading my mind. I was in the middle of composing a long message very much like this one when I read the forum one more time and saw your post. Now I'm reduced to making some comments on your comments icon_smile.gif

 

quote:

4. I have an issue with my efforts as a volunteer, i.e. hiding caches, being used to generate income for someone else.


 

This one of is the biggest issues for me. In the year or so since I've joined, there have been several different controversies surrounding who "owns" Geocaching. Who owns the name, who owns the lat/long data and who owns the cache descriptions/logs. It seems to me that Groundspeak hosts the site and codes the features, but does not supply the content. So am I paying someone to host my content or am I providing my services for free to someone who is making money off of me. It's a very fine line and I'm just not sure which side I fall on.

 

quote:

6. No one likes to be excluded. Multi-tier membership schemes are guaranteeed to hurt people's feelings. That can't be avoided.


 

And I can see a potential for harrassment if one does not have the "Charter icon" next to their name. Peer pressure can be a nasty thing and if someone couldn't afford the subscription right away or something like that, I can see how this might alienate them.

 

Thanks to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I think it's bringing to light several things that have been bugging me for awhile. Cheers!

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Guest Misguided One

To quote Arnold Schwarzenegger "STOP WHINING" (Kindergarten Cop)

 

The price of an annual "subscription" is $30.- per year, You can't go out to dinner and a movie for that price in just a single evening.

Someone said something earlier about a club for pay would be self defeating(to paraphrase). My Father and I were involved in a youth organization when I was a teen. After 8 years of volunteering we found that our services weren't appreciated as much as they were expected. That expectation forced us to stop giving our time. I see the same thing happening with Jeremy. I am one of the so-called "NEWBIES" (only involved for 2 mo.),but you better believe I'll be sending in my $30.-. Even if "Charter Membership" didn't offer any more content than what's currently available, it would still be worth the money.

 

Mg1.

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Guest oregone

after you pay the thirty bucks, how do you get to see the new features? i'm having trouble. also, who do you **** at paypal to get them to realize they've charged you twice?

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Guest Cachemere

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

"We'll be honest. Regardless of what sort of relationship we have with you, geocaching will sell our GPS units."

 

(Quoted from memory from a major GPS manufacturer).

 

So no, GPS manufacturers are not falling over themselves to advertise on the site.

 

Jeremy


 

I'm used to seeing the small advertisement box for the Geocaching Accessories from Groundspeak but what surprised me was an ad I found in that familiar box today. Perhaps I haven't noticed it before, but I wondered if perhaps Groundspeak had added another product. Nope, it didn't. Here's where it linked:

http://www.delorme.com/topousa/topo.asp?code=4319

 

Maybe GPS manufacturers aren't falling over themselves to advertise on this site but I'm willing to bet that DeLorme didn't get their advertisement on this site for free.

 

Simply an observation.

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Guest exConn

ems to me that Groundspeak hosts the site and codes the features, but does not supply the content.


 

But Julie, doesn't it make sense that someone who "hosts the site and codes the features" be compensated for their work? Should they be expected to do this for free forever at their own expense?

 

quote:
So am I paying someone to host my content or am I providing my services for free to someone who is making money off of me. It's a very fine line and I'm just not sure which side I fall on.

 

Let's say that you run a gift basket business out of your home. You work hard creating some nice baskets. Now, you want to sell them. You can do it 2 ways:

 

1) Advertise and market your baskets. You keep all the inventory and you do all the work.

 

2) Bring your baskets to a retail store to be sold. The traffic the store generates advertises and markets your product, they pay electricity costs, they pay for cashiers, etc. Would you expect them to display your product, take sale of the item, and then give you the total profit from the sale? Of course not, they would get part of the profit because they are handling your overhead (ie work).

 

Now, lets pretend you have done a lot of work on creating a wonderful cache. Now you want people to go find it. You could do this 2 ways also:

 

1) Spend countless hours researching/buying your own domain name, finding a company to host your domain, developing html code, advertising your cache, trying to get your site listed at the top of search engines among a zillion others, etc. Nothing prevents you from doing this right now. You could have your own site with cache listings.

 

2) Spend 10 minutes listing your cache on geocaching.com where all the work and overhead is taken care of for you. Would you expect that it all be done for you for free? Don't answer, because it still will be free! Jeremy has stated that traditional caches will be the same as they always have been. But, in my opinion Jeremy does deserve compensation for service he provides and the costs of that service.

 

quote:
And I can see a potential for harrassment if one does not have the "Charter icon" next to their name.

 

Julie, I really disagree with you on this. I think you'll find that the majority of the caching community deals with each other respectfully (even when there are disagreements). I don't believe that it will change regardless of whether there is an icon next to your name or not...

 

-exConn

 

 

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What is Project Virginia?

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Guest worldtraveler

I've owned and used a GPSr for about 3 years, but I found out about geocaching less than 4 months ago. In that short time, I've been able to find 50 caches. If not for geocaching.com, that number would be zero. I've also seen several significant improvements to this website since my first visit, but I've never been asked or required to pay for any of these benefits. I've tried to "do my part" by purchasing travel bugs and other geocaching stuff from this site; but I've never donated, primarily because I wasn't aware of the need and secondarily because I wouldn't have known an appropriate amount. If Jeremy had issued an appeal for a donation of "x" amount, I would have gladly pitched in; but he's actually gone one better by offering features "above and beyond" what we are currently getting simply for supporting an activity we are already benefiting from. And he's suggested an amount that he deems sufficient.

 

I don't know Jeremy personally, but he has certainly earned my trust and support by virtue of his work thus far. I, therefore, have gladly paid my "dues" for the next 12 months.

 

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Worldtraveler

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Guest exConn

quote:
Originally posted by Cachemere:

Maybe GPS manufacturers aren't falling over themselves to advertise on this site but I'm willing to bet that DeLorme didn't get their advertisement on this site for free.


 

My guess is that it's just an affiliate link (notice the code=4319).

 

If you wind up buying the product, Delorme knows that 4319 represents geocaching.com and will credit a percentage of the sale.

 

So actually that ad could have gotten on this site for free.

 

I could be wrong...

 

-exConn

 

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What is Project Virginia?

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quote:
Originally posted by exConn:

My guess is that it's just an affiliate link (notice the code=4319).

 

I could be wrong...

 

-exConn

 


 

No. You're right. It's actually a special price for people coming from Geocaching, but IMHO poor marketing. There is a minor % that Geocaching gets, but very minor.

 

We do have some smaller advertisers, but most prefer the "mega ad" banner which I would rather not have. Even sites like Slashdot will be providing these ads shortly.

 

Jeremy

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Guest Buck8Point

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:

Thanks Jeremy ... even without any additional enhancements ... it is more than worth the $2.50 per month. A single beer with dinner in most resturants cost more than that! icon_biggrin.gif


 

Well said Hawk-eye... Who could be against everyone buying Jeremy a beer once a month for entertaining us all the time?

Im in... And I'm ready to buy a round.. icon_biggrin.gif

 

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Buck8Point

"If I can't fix it, It's definately Broke."

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Guest bunkerdave

ch from Magellan, if said manufacturer were, say, Garmin.

 

That said, it is entirely probable that my next GPS will be the Garmin V, anyway. UNLESS Magellan decides to "help out" Geocaching.com. Then I could probably be persuaded to the MeriGold.

 

Just a thought...I am curious if any others feel this way?

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Guest kablooey

quote:
Originally posted by Ranz:

Isn't the concern over this 'Members Only' cache deal a little premature...With the exception of what I listed in my earlier post, I can't think of a reason I would put a 'Member Only' out. If I did, it would be a cache that I wouldn't have placed otherwise.


 

Perhaps. However, what happens here is going to be controlled by the members themselves, and not Jeremy, unless he's going to place restrictions on what can and can't be a members-only cache. I guess we can sit back and watch to see what happens.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Misguided One

You can't go out to dinner and a movie for that price in just a single evening.


Well, I can. The last time I did dinner and a movie, it was free tickets scored from the local weekly paper and a McDonald's Happy Meal. [ icon_smile.gif] I'm not saying that I can't afford $30, but it can feed me for 10 days, while it won't even buy a single meal for others. That said, my problem isn't the pricing, it's the possible stratification of the sport.

 

[This message has been edited by kablooey (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest 3fros

This is not a post against paying for the service, this is just another thought.

 

I haven't seen a lot of people talking about this, but the thing that I cannot understand is why Magellan and Garmin aren't also caughing up some dough to help out. Maybe this should be on a new thread and they should be invited to join in and explain. A lot of people that are playing this game are buying GPS units that they never would have bought otherwise, and Magellan & Garmin are making a lot of profit from this.

 

I am thinking of upgrading to a different GPS. If I wasn't sure of which one to buy and if it was between the two competing brands I would probably buy the one that is supporting geocaching.com. The smarter company is the one that starts supporting first and taking business from the other company. When you register your purchase with them, they could ask what your primary uses are and if you say (or check the box on a form) geocaching, then they should throw a percentage of the sale into the geocaching kitty.

 

I bet that Magellan and Garmin are making much bigger profits from this game than geocaching.com is.

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Guest TresOkies

Wow. Teach me to leave for a day...

 

For starts, I'm more than willing to pony up. Hell, I already have on several occasions. Geocaching and this community have caused me to make very positive changes in my life in the last year and it's more than worth $30 per year for me. If it's not worth it to you or you want to try it out for a while, that's cool, you are still welcome to find my caches if you find yourself in my neck of the woods and I'll still reply to you in the forums. Nothing will change between you and I. The only thing that will change is the fact that I'm paying Groundspeak money to ensure that I get to continue playing.

 

Read this thread to see what I see as the real value of geocaching. This fellow, Dave, did something exceptional for the child of a fellow geocacher--someone he'd never met. For no reason other than he's a nice guy. If $30 a year helps assure that Geocaching.com is stocked with guys like Dave and devoid of people like the GeoReplacementSquad, sign me up for a lifetime membership.

 

Finally, if the site begins to deteriorate over time or Jeremy becomes a benelovent despot, we'll stage a coup d'etat, hijack the domain name and run the site from my Apple IIc. icon_wink.gif

 

-E

 

------------------

N35°32.981 W98°34.631

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Guest tslack2000

through the paypal button at the bottom of every page.

 

If, despite the subscription service, Jeremy is still having problems raising the needed money to run this site, I'll continue to use the paypal button at the bottom of every page in addition to subscribing for the perks. At this point, I'm not even sure how this service will even benefit me at all, which brings me back to my original thought: I'm paying to support geocaching.com and I don't think by doing so it is going to ruin it for the rest of you who think this is wrong. As a matter of fact, I'm helping to keep this site alive for the people who insist on playing for free. (Previous comment not intended for anyone who has made a donation.)

 

------------------

Tyler Slack's Geocaching in Utah

 

[This message has been edited by tslack2000 (edited 06 March 2002).]

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Guest Julie

Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my remarks.

 

quote:
Originally posted by exConn:

But Julie, doesn't it make sense that someone who "hosts the site and codes the features" be compensated for their work? Should they be expected to do this for free forever at their own expense?


 

You make a good point here. In other posts I've said that some form of compensation is appropriate. I just have some issues with what exactly Groundspeak is doing, where it is going and how the changes are being presented to us.

 

quote:
Originally posted by exConn:

I think you'll find that the majority of the caching community deals with each other respectfully (even when there are disagreements). I don't believe that it will change regardless of whether there is an icon next to your name or not...


 

You may be right about the majority, but I couldn't prove it from the tone of some of the posts in the forums and from some private emails I've gotten. (Not on this topic per se, but on some others.)

 

I don't mean to be overly negative, but I want people to be exposed to some of the issues and go into this thing with their eyes open. There are always alternatives, even if they don't seem apparent.

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Guest ClayJar

You know, I think I just figured out what, precisely, has been bothering me about all the negative comments regarding mocaches (members-only caches)...

 

The thing that makes geocaching work (or any such community-driven project for that matter) is the goodwill of the people involved. Since the beginning, we've been trusting each other to do the right thing when hiding or finding caches. Sure, there have been some people who will hide a pair of old shoes, and there have been others who will go out and steal a cache just because they can, but for the most part, we're good people.

 

A bunch of us seem to have forgotten that fundamental tenet of geocaching: in order to participate in this game, you must trust your fellow cachers. The fact that now there is a new feature coming that will give another hiding option to cachers does not in any way change who those cachers are.

 

Do I think Fractal will all-of-the-sudden become an elitist snob who hides his caches from all but the "elite few"? Bah! Do I think Markwell will archive "Hard as Pi" and only do mocaches? You're joking, right? I know it's a difficult step for some of us to trust that the new power won't be abused, but think about it: we've been trusting these same people not to abuse the game for *how* long, and now we're afraid that one extra feature will somehow turn them into vindictive elitists?

 

I *definitely* intend to hide a mocache. Yes, I'm going to spend more money on it than I do on my standard caches. But WHY?... Simply this: I would like nothing better than to be able to *thank* my fellow cachers for supporting my favorite community site. This will give me a way to do that.

 

Will the fact that I want to do just a little something special for people who have helped me take away from what I do for the general public? No indeed. The choice is not, "Will I spend my money on a mocache or a pacache (public-access cache)?" The choice is, "Do I have a way to make an *additional* extra-special cache for the people I have grown to consider my friends, or is there nothing I can do to thank them?"

 

Finally, remember that we are still who we have always been. *We* have the power to do nice things for people, and the fact that we can also do nice things for fellow supporters does not change that. Do you have a local poor college cacher that really *can't* afford a subscription to view your new extra-special mocache? It's your cache, so e-mail them the info directly. Or even better, look for the underprivileged cachers who really *do* need help... and *help* them.

 

I believe in this community enough that, if someone does show me a cacher who really *can't* afford a membership, I will personally pay for a year of theirs. I can't say that I'll pay for *all* people who can't afford it, but I'll pay for one. I believe in the people here, and I'll back that up. If anyone else wants to join me in this, post away. Let's show the forgetful what kind of community this really is, and maybe then we can stop worrying about us all moving to the dark side and get on with enjoying the coming features.

 

-NK/ClayJar

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Guest apersson850

Regarding the impact of geocaching on the sales of GPS units:

I checked the Garmin website. Their sales the first three quarters 2001 is 70% recreational, 30% aviation units.

In the year 2000 it was 67%/33%. Their net income is up by more than 9%.

 

Go figure.

 

Anders

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quote:
Originally posted by ClayJar:

I believe in this community enough that, if someone does show me a cacher who really *can't* afford a membership, I will personally pay for a year of theirs. I can't say that I'll pay for *all* people who can't afford it, but I'll pay for one. I believe in the people here, and I'll back that up. If anyone else wants to join me in this, post away. Let's show the forgetful what kind of community this really is, and maybe then we can stop worrying about us all moving to the dark side and get on with enjoying the coming features.

 

-NK/ClayJar


 

Well Said. While I don't really think cost is the issue, I'll admit that my financial reality may make me a bit blind to others. Count me in for one if the need arises.

 

geosign.gif

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Guest WJJagfan

Relatively speaking, I've been GeoHunting for a long time (first find 4/15/01), but I'm not as consumed as some people are. I hit the trail every once in a while, but I don't go spend much time at it. I was into it a lot more before I had some caches plundered.

 

I remember a discussion last year on the pay-for-play topic. It actually got quite heated. What settled the discussion down was Jeremy's "I will never charge for geocaching." statement.

 

I understand that this pay-for-play offer is on a voluntary bases; no problem. I applaude those who support this site and $30/year is certainly reasonable for a hobby. My concern is for those of us 'occassional' GeoHunters who enjoy it as a side activity when out hiking, or newbies who are not yet committed to this activity.

 

I can see the seperation beginning and soon we will have two classes of GeoHunters - those who 'have an icon' and those who 'have no icon'. Eventually any decent cache worth the time and effort to find will be 'subscriber only' and the free ride will be over.

 

Even Clayjar's very well written piece hints at the seperation 'us' and 'them'. Those who do, are part of us; those who don't, aren't. As it stands right now - without 'charter members' - everyone is 'us'. I don't know if Clayjar contibutes to the site or not, and he doesn't know if I do or not. We can both search for the same caches; poor, good, better or best it doesn't matter neither of us is excluded.

 

I wouldn't like to see this site cluttered with advertising either, but there are plenty of sites out there that generate traffic who have sponsers and still offer their services to the public for free without cluttered web pages.

 

GPS manufacturers are not the only possible source for revenue - don't we all use boots, clothing, packs, flashlights, cars, bikes, containers, food, drink, etc, etc.

 

Oh well ... yes, I would like a little cheese with this whine. icon_smile.gif

 

[This message has been edited by WJJagfan (edited 06 March 2002).]

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Guest nlazarus

I plan on sending in my $30.00, Geocaching has gotten me out of the house and exploring the parks in the city I live in. Something I have not done in the ten years I have lived here. It even gives me something to do when I am out of town on busines. The least I can do is provide some finacial supprt to help Jeremy keep the website up and running.

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