Rules: knives and lighters

May 2, 2003

I just heard a rumor that knives (apparently even pocket knives) and lighters were now against the rules for putting in caches. I didn't find any details on the FAQ page. I wonder:

(1) Are the details somewhere, and

(2) I can see why bowie knives might not be great for caches, but folding pocket knives? Lighters? C'mon, these are two of most common things people have with them when hiking.

Opinions? Info? I'm just a newbie so forgive me if all this has been hashed out before.

oplo

24.7k · May 2, 2003

Pocket knives got rules out. That's in some other threads.

Lighters were being debated. They are not likely to explode but do contain flamibles. Some lighters need to be fueled up first though. I can't see a problem there at all.

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

May 2, 2003

The only problem I can see with Lighters is...

What if someone plunders the cache, finds a lighter then (suddenly has a bright idea) proceeds to burn down the area in which the cache is hidden.

Not that this has happened, to my knowledge, but Better safe than sorry... We don't need any accidents.

9.1k · May 2, 2003

For all of you who think the "no pocketknives" rule is silly, have a look at this thread for an example of how a land manager abuses the excuse of "dangerous weapons being left in geocaches" to help justify a ban on caching in the county's park system. A tiny swiss army multi-tool knife was left in a cache there. Jeremy said previously that he gets LOTS of complaints like this one. I can only imagine.

A nice pocket knife was my daughter's find at our very first cache, and she was thrilled! It gave me a chance to teach her about how to care for a pocket knife responsibly. So don't flame me for being "anti-knife."

So, now we no longer look for or leave pocket knives in caches. We've decided we like looking for "outdoors tools" a lot better.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Some mornings, it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather straps. - Emo Phillips

May 2, 2003

A reference to knives can be found on the FAQ page under the heading 'What shouldn't be in a cache?'; there you'll find the statement:

"...Explosives, ammo, knives, drugs, and alcohol shouldn't be placed in a cache..."

Oddly, there's no similar mention of knives on the 'Guide to Creating and Hiding a Cache' page, where it simply states:

"...Please! No alcohol, tobacco, firearms, prescription or illicit drugs..."

I know that Jeremy only recently added knives to the first reference, so I'm guessing that there being no mention of knives in the second reference is merely an oversight. Knives are a no-no.

May 2, 2003

Is a pocket knife really a dangerous weapon? I guess a table knife would also be a dangerous weapon, granted you would have to push a bit harder to get penetration!

Just remember. Getting there is half the fun...

May 2, 2003

I would be concerned about a lighter sitting inside a cache exposed to the hot sun all day. Might start leaking. If the cache was in a shaded location then may be OK.

========================================

"The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings".

May 2, 2003

quote:
Is a pocket knife really a dangerous weapon? I guess a table knife would also be a dangerous weapon, granted you would have to push a bit harder to get penetration!

Yeah, or someone could just pick up the geocache ammo box and bash someone else's head in. There comes a point at which concerns become overblown...

It seems to me that small pocket knifes should be legal, except maybe in caches placed near actual kiddie play-parks with swing sets and things. Which would seem to me like a silly place for a cache anyway...

1.1k · May 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team 5-oh!:
Is a pocket knife really a dangerous weapon?

Do you really want to enter another debate about how dangerous a pocket knife is, or could you simply honor the logic of leaving knives out of caches in order to give geomuggles a better impression of the activity?

You have the right to be a good or bad steward for the sport. Regardless of what your opinion is on the topic it is better to err on the side of caution and honor the rule.

Hey, if you want to wear your hat sideways and be a rebel, bully for you. Smirk while you put that multitool in a cache and the girls will come running.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

May 2, 2003

Pocket knife dangerous? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so sick of this BS. Why do we judge so???

Rino 110

MeriGreen 128

1.7k · May 2, 2003

One word: lawyers.

That moss-covered bucket I hailed as a treasure,

For often at noon, when I returned from the field,

I found it the source of an exquisite pleasure.

Samuel Woodworth The Old Oaken Bucket

May 2, 2003

What a silly world we live in.

Perhaps we should all wear helmets too.

1.5k · May 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by DeerChaser & Poni:
Pocket knife dangerous? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so sick of this BS. Why do we judge so???

http://www.gifmaniacos.com/Simpsons/homer/mer.gif

Rino 110

MeriGreen 128

Ok, everybody seems bent on ignoring Jeremy's request for just honoring the rule and leaving them out. Simply put, they are sharp objects and pose a certain degree of risk (knives are perceived more often as a weapon than the #2 pencil you sign the logbook with). But by all means, if you want to leave a knife in a cache and something happens as a result, don't forget to log your team name for the lawyer to contact you. It's a matter of liability. Sometimes things change in this sport that aren't popular with everyone...but for the benefit of the sport and longevity.

Brian

Team A.I.

1.5k · May 2, 2003

Lighters in a cache=STUPID.

That gives anyone who might stumble on the cache, non-cacher or otherwise, a tool to burn down the precious lands we use to recreate and geocache in. Personally, I don't think we need a repeat of the 400,000+ acres that burned through several communities, and destroyed numerous homes in this state last year.

Brian

Team A.I.

38.2k · May 2, 2003

Never mind knives and lighters, my real concern is Yo Yo Balls.

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

1.7k · May 2, 2003

Not everyone is bent on ignoring Jeremy's request. We have not put any sort of pocket knife/lighter/matches in a cache and never will, by our personal preference as well as the request of TPTB. Besides, we're working on a non-threatening signature piece.

**************

That moss-covered bucket I hailed as a treasure,

For often at noon, when I returned from the field,

I found it the source of an exquisite pleasure.

Samuel Woodworth The Old Oaken Bucket

1.5k · May 2, 2003

[sarcasm]The only non-threatening signature piece would be no piece at all...at least it seems so with the suggested bans on ammo cans/virtual caches/multi-caches/traditional caches/locationless caches and the like. [/sarcasm]

Brian

Team A.I.

May 2, 2003

Boy oh Boy oh BOY.........

Everyone is entitled to they're opinion, but the rules are the rules. Too many don't follow them. Weather you like them or not, if you want to play the game, play it right, or don't play at all. Because of the selfishness of some cachers, who want it their way, geocaching will be outlawed everywhere. Bash me if you most, but you know who you are & that I'm right. Rather I think I am anyway.

Jeremy has the patience of Job. I wouldn't be able to handle most of the crap some cachers put out. Whine.Whine.....Whine.

ROCKER

give to the world the best you have,

and the best will come back to you.

...............MaryAinge deVere

May 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

quote:
Originally posted by Team 5-oh!:
Is a pocket knife really a dangerous weapon?

Do you really want to enter another debate about how dangerous a pocket knife is, or could you simply honor the logic of leaving knives out of caches in order to give geomuggles a better impression of the activity?

...

Yes I guess I do. And it's not a matter of wanting to put a knife in a cache but rather to just point out how silly it sounds to try and make such a point. I expect if the geomuggles have it their way we will all be walking to the caches because cars are dangerous.

This concludes my participation in this sillyness know as the forums.

1.1k · May 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team 5-oh!:
I expect if the geomuggles have it their way we will all be walking to the caches because cars are dangerous.

I didn't think of it that way. And bicycles are great for the environment and your own personal fitness. Just make sure to wear a helmet and have a light on the front when it gets dark.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.2k · May 3, 2003

I`ve crashed enough on those bicycles that they are a dangerous weapon in my hands Helmets have saved my life twice now.

May 3, 2003

Knifes are a bad idea in a cache. I carry a full/ ( sometimes ) medium Ka-bar hunting/fighting knife on me, depending as to where I'm going.

Geocachers who are willing to carry a knife, will carry one with them, they don't need to be given one from a cache.

People have a habit of sueing anyone for anything, just to get some money, and/or to get something banned.

" Weapons left behind in secret stashes for others to find "

How nice is that going to be in the headlines for us? Even if you leave a pocket knife with good intentions, it's actual purpose may not turn out to what you wished for it to be.

How dangerous can a pocket knife can be? If mishandled, even a tiny 1'in blade could be dealy ( depending to whom, but regardless of that )

Lighters aren't a bad idea, however, if leaving one behind, a good idea would be to empty it of all fuel. Other wise, how nice would it be to stumble on a lighter fluid flavoured Geocache?

- Nick

9.4k · May 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

quote:
Originally posted by Team 5-oh!:
I expect if the geomuggles have it their way we will all be walking to the caches because cars are dangerous.

I didn't think of it that way. And bicycles are great for the environment and your own personal fitness. Just make sure to wear a helmet and have a light on the front when it gets dark.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

The batteries in that light have dangerous chemicals in them. Battery factories are not environmentally friendly. You can help reduce the number of batteries being manufactured if you don't cache at night on your bicycle.

May 3, 2003

No, you've got to use one of the headlight generators that run off of the rear wheel rim -- no batteries needed. I'm trying to figure out a way to attach it to me to save on GPS batteries. So far it only worked once when I slipped and rolled down a steep hill...

"All of us are standing in the mud, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

May 3, 2003

You'll think that wheel rim generator is safe for the environment until it wears through your sidewall resulting in a blown tire, crash, and enviromental cleanup being required because of the skinned knee..

I'm going to have a hard time sleeping because of the nightmares I'll have regarding the Yo-yo balls thing. It sounds scary to me.

May 3, 2003

For the most part I obey the law, but I disregard "rules" on an activity that has no governing body. My judgement is sufficient.

That's just me though. Many (most?) people are to dumb to think on their own and therefore need meaningless "rules" to govern their lives. It prevents natural selection from taking place, hence making society continually dumber on average. If the smart 10% continue to do the thinking for the moronic 90%, the smart 10% will eventually make themselves extinct. No joke.

May 3, 2003

my stupid opinion!

knives banned= don't support

lighters banned= support, because some kid could find it and start smoking!

porno banned= support

The problem making a rule over the forums is most average geocachers don't read the forums or rules and do things unknowingly or regardless. So whatever.

"If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure."

- Dan Quayle

"Si nous ne r?ussissons pas nous courons le risque d'?chec."

- Dan Quayle (If he was French!) [Those crazy French!]

English: Radman Version 2.0

Spanish Versi?n 2,0 De Radman

Portuguese: Vers?o 2,0 De Radman

Italian: Versione 2,0 Di Radman

May 4, 2003

Jeremy has an excellent point. It doesn't really matter whether the knife is truly dangerous or not... we're still at a point where we're trying to get the rest of the world to accept that geocaching is a harmless, fun family activity that they should support. Placing knives in caches is only likely to inflame the reactionaries to ban geocaches in whatever sphere of the world they have control over.

38.2k · May 4, 2003

Some people have been leaving the old army P-38 can openers. Very useful items. And about as dangerous as a pocket knife if used incorrectly. You could slice someone up real good with one.

Should we ban those as well? What about multi tools like the Leatherman? They usually have a knife blade. Heck, nearly anything that is placed in a cache can be dangerous to someone. Children can choke on small toys placed in caches, pencils can take out someone's eye, a CITO plastic bag could smother an infant, a letter opener can stab someone, a yo-yo could strangle someone. You name an item and it's possible that it could be dangerous if someone misuses it.

Calling a small pocket knife a weapon is like calling a paper glider an airplane. Before the zero tolerance hysteria in schools and 9/11, nobody considered a pocket knife to be a weapon. It was simply a useful tool. I used to bring mine on planes all the time and even had no problem getting into the US Senate gallery with one. The whole thing is just plain silly!

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

2.6k · May 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
What about multi tools like the Leatherman?

Hey be nice now. I'm not a TOOL!

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

38.2k · May 4, 2003

quote:
Hey be nice now. I'm not a TOOL!

Do you know the story of the original Leatherman (the person, not the tool)?

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

May 4, 2003

Because of all the controversy surrounding knives in caches, I have been leaving photocopies of them instead. That is until certain individuals began to complan of paper cuts, so I had to stop tat practice, too.

May 4, 2003

Why is there such a problem with not leaving knives in caches? A rule is a rule. Why not just keep the knives to our selves? The are soooo many other things you can leave. Granted there is no one looking over your shoulder as you place your goodies but why not just stick with something that is less controversial. If I see a knive in a cache I WILL take it. Not because I want it but because I DON'T want a child to get a hold of it.

May 4, 2003

quote:
Why is there such a problem with not leaving knives in caches? A rule is a rule. Why not just keep the knives to our selves? The are soooo many other things you can leave. Granted there is no one looking over your shoulder as you place your goodies but why not just stick with something that is less controversial. If I see a knive in a cache I WILL take it. Not because I want it but because I DON'T want a child to get a hold of it.

Most people feel that it's just another example of censorship/oppression/whatever. Something along the lines of "fight for the trivial rights now to safegaurd the non-trivial ones later". I agree in principle, but most "rules" placed on geocaching and the discussions about them are idiotic. In such matters personal judgement should be more than enough regulation.

Don't forget the this is just website and that geocaching extends far beyond it. Geocaching.com is by no means an authority, just popular.

For the record, I don't leave knives in caches. Not because I make it point not to, but just because it just hasn't come up. If it does come up I will be using my good judgement to decide what to do and nothing else.

38.2k · May 5, 2003

quote:
If I see a knive in a cache I WILL take it. Not because I want it but because I DON'T want a child to get a hold of it.

What child is going to hike alone, 3 miles into the mountains, desert, etc... to find a cache and take a knife?

OK, if the cache is next to a school, playground, or in a popular park, that's one thing. A little common sense goes a long way. But silly rule or not, I don't see the problem with putting a pocket knife in most caches.

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

May 5, 2003

We're talking about two of mankind's first tools here! Amazing, simply amazing where we are now as a society, rules or no rules. Just a couple comments...

Brian - Team A.I. wrote

quote:
Lighters in a cache=STUPID.

That gives anyone who might stumble on the cache, non-cacher or otherwise, a tool to burn down the precious lands we use to recreate and geocache in.

Thereby lighters (or matches) at a store, at a restaurant or even in your pocket would be stupid. Gimme a break - it's not the tool folks, it's the person wielding it with a desire to cause harm. Sources of fire do not make the pyro, the psychological makeup of the person does.

BeOnTheLookOut wrote

quote:
If I see a knive in a cache I WILL take it. Not because I want it but because I DON'T want a child to get a hold of it.

Both of my boys have been carrying a knife (where legal) since the age of 10. I would consider them children, and more responsible then many adults. At what age would you DEEM it appropriate for our youth to begin learning how to use and respect sharp tools? Inherently knives cut, usually superficially, and the wound(s) heal quite nicely. What's next, pencils? They are sharp and pointy ya' know, and our children might use them!

I'm visualizing folks sitting around the dinner table eating cold food with their hands. Man creates tools out of necessity to make their lives easier. Now we wish to exclude them because of their inherent danger. Remove the item rather than teach about it - now that's stupid.

Heaven forbid my Sebenza and Brunton don't fall out of my pockets while looking for a cache!

Usual Suspects - Terrapin & Bug

"Sure don't know what I'm goin' for, but I'm gonna go for it for sure!"

9.1k · May 5, 2003

I don't think that the majority of geocachers feel that pocket knives are inappropriate cache items, particularly in a remote cache. Rather, the rule is in effect because of the image we want to portray to land managers. By arguing here, you're missing the target audience. Write an argument to the park district in Ohio who wrote this after a keychain-type swiss army knife was found in a cache:

quote:
Recently, a geocache was placed on park property and was discovered by our
Park Ranger. Upon reading the log book, the staff of the Licking Park

District discovered that the original owner placed a weapon inside the

cache. It was placed near a well used trail and picnicking area. Had this

cache been found by a school group or child, there could have been serious

implications. Again, more Licking Park District Rules and Regulations were

violated including: Section 3.2 Improper Transportation of A Dangerous

Weapon in a Motor Vehicle and 3.3 Carrying Dangerous weapons which states:

"No person, except law enforcement officers, shall have or carry any knives,

daggers or other edged weapons, metal knuckles, slingshots, blow guns or

other dangerous weapons on or about his or her person while in the parks."

While we encourage visitors to hike our trails and enjoy our facilities,

former geocachers violated several of our rules and regulations, thus our

decision to outlaw geocaching on any Licking Park District property.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Some mornings, it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather straps. - Emo Phillips

38.2k · May 5, 2003

quote:
ecently, a geocache was placed on park property and was discovered by our
Park Ranger. Upon reading the log book, the staff of the Licking Park

District discovered that the original owner placed a weapon inside the

cache. It was placed near a well used trail and picnicking area. Had this

cache been found by a school group or child, there could have been serious

implications. Again, more Licking Park District Rules and Regulations were

violated including: Section 3.2 Improper Transportation of A Dangerous

Weapon in a Motor Vehicle and 3.3 Carrying Dangerous weapons which states:

"No person, except law enforcement officers, shall have or carry any knives,

daggers or other edged weapons, metal knuckles, slingshots, blow guns or

other dangerous weapons on or about his or her person while in the parks."

While we encourage visitors to hike our trails and enjoy our facilities,

former geocachers violated several of our rules and regulations, thus our

decision to outlaw geocaching on any Licking Park District property.

This is someone who obviously doesn't understand the "spirit of the law". It's obviously meant to ban weapons from the park. A keychain Swiss Army Knife is not a weapon, unless one has a very vivid imagination.

I admit, that in this case, it probably should not have been placed in a cache near a popular picnic area. Have some common sense!

BTW, if there is a picnic area in this park, what do people use to open cans of beans, cut their steaks and butter their bread?

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on May 05, 2003 at 06:44 AM.]

May 5, 2003

quote:
It was placed near a well used trail and picnicking area.

And the folks in the picnicking area would be cutting their food with what? Are they just gnawing away on their steaks and chicken? Or maybe they just wait until a LEO shows up to cut their food for them?

quote:
Rather, the rule is in effect because of the image we want to portray to land managers. By arguing here, you're missing the target audience.

So its about image? That's the same thing that's removing many tools from the general citizenry - their perception as weapons. How dangerous they look means more than their inherent value? Gimme a break.

I'm not missing my target audience at all. As long as there are people in society that continue to think inanimate objects are the cause of our problems, and that perception is more important than purpose, then my words are not wasted.

A letter from a guy in MI will probably have little effect on this ludicrous interpretation of a dangerous weapon law in Ohio. BTW - they call them weapons, I call them tools. So should we all. I'd love to get bagged for a knife in that park, my attorney would have a field day! As well, I'd end up with more $$ to spend on knives.

added later - Hey Lep, I'm not intending to flame you. I'm just trying to state my general opinion on knives, lighters, and such, and you provided some applicable quotes. No harm intended. I hope your daughter is still enjoying her first pocket knife. Best of luck to you in your search for addl. "outdoor tools".

Usual Suspects - Terrapin & Bug

"Sure don't know what I'm goin' for, but I'm gonna go for it for sure!"

1.7k · May 5, 2003

quote:
_Brian - Team A.I. wrote_

quote:
Lighters in a cache=STUPID.

That gives anyone who might stumble on the cache, non-cacher or otherwise, a tool to burn down the precious lands we use to recreate and geocache in.

Thereby lighters (or matches) at a store, at a restaurant or even in your pocket would be stupid. Gimme a break - it's not the tool folks, it's the person wielding it with a desire to cause harm. Sources of fire do not make the pyro, the psychological makeup of the person does.

/

Brian from Team A.I. and I are Arizonans. We are expecting anotheer bad fire season out here just like last year. Anybody remember our Rodeo-Chediski fire? The Rodeo part was started by an idiot who got lost and started a fire to attract attention. Homes were lost. Precious forest lost. It will affect our landscape (and not just scenery) for a long time. Educate all you want, but I would prefer to keep matches and lighters out of the hands of any potential careless firebug.

Perhaps you can understand our aversion to lighters.

*************

That moss-covered bucket I hailed as a treasure,

For often at noon, when I returned from the field,

I found it the source of an exquisite pleasure.

Samuel Woodworth The Old Oaken Bucket

May 5, 2003

I feel for your loss, and I'm not just saying that, I sincerely do. I love the outdoors and nature, and hate losing any of it due to carelessness. I kind of understand your aversion to lighters, but think it may be misplaced. IMO, your aversion should be directed at those who carelessly use fire (or other tools). Education is crucial, and may be more difficult, but its effect is much more enduring and effective.

Usual Suspects - Terrapin & Bug

"Sure don't know what I'm goin' for, but I'm gonna go for it for sure!"

May 5, 2003

quote:
Both of my boys have been carrying a knife (where legal) since the age of 10. I would consider them children, and more responsible then many adults. At what age would you DEEM it appropriate for our youth to begin learning how to use and respect sharp tools?

I do not think that age is a factor here. There are many teenagers that I wouldn't give butter knives to. It is up to the parents to educate their children on these such matters. Unfortunately not all parents do so, as most of you out there in the forums have done.

This subject has been hashed out in these forums many times. The only conclusion that I can draw from it, is that people disagree on what is appropriate. People are going to leave what they want. Therefore I will leave what I feel is appropriate and I will remove what I feel is inappropriate. We all have the right to remove as much as we all have the right to place.

May 5, 2003

what about a regular disposable shaving razor.... found one of these in a cache the other day

May 6, 2003

I only leave electric "pop up" car lighters in caches, thus ensuring only those of sixteen years of age or more will be able to use them.

Rules: knives and lighters

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