New cache vehicle?

August 12, 2003

I'm considering a second vehicle for caching and other off-pavement activities. My car does well for everything I've attempted, which is a lot more than what many "luxury SUV" owners would attempt, but I'd like something with 4WD and higher ground clearance for these adventures.

I'm not willing to give up my 32mpg car for anything that gets 15mpg, but I don't have a lot of money, either. Whatever I get (if I do get something else) would need to be relatively cheap, but also be able to handle some light abuse.

The question I'd like to pose to those who are "in the know" about these things is this:

What makes/models are well-built and reliable, but don't hold their value very well? I know that 4WDs carry a premium, and I'm ok with that. I'm just looking to spend as little as possible for a weekend-only vehicle.

I'm kind of partial to Jeep and Toyota, both of which hold their value pretty well, unfortunately. A friend had an older Montero for a while and I was pretty impressed with it. I've also always wanted an AMC Eagle, but I don't know if it'd rate high on the reliability scale and the ones that are available and in good condition are expensive anyway.

So what do y'all think?

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

9.4k · August 12, 2003

I drive a 4x4 Suburban. It may be big, but I can go over anything and there is plenty of room for Swag

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

8.4k · August 12, 2003

I've seen jeeps on mountian roads that I will only do on a motorcycle. We're talkin above 10K with no guard rail and over 1,000 feet of drop off. I have respect for em.

Sngans

Sacred cows make the best hamburger....Mark Twain.

38.2k · August 12, 2003

I have a 2003 Honda CR-V. It gets about 26 mpg on the highway and because my wife is an incredible bargainer, it ran us just a tad over $18,000 (FDP).

It's 4wd, with AC. It comes with the legendary Honda rep for reliability and re-sale value. The downside? It came with the absolute worst stereo I ever heard outside the one that came with my '69 Impala. I replaced that sucker right away.

Oh, and it's a 5 speed manual. Never understood why anybody would buy an SUV with automatic. What are they thinking????

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on August 13, 2003 at 06:53 AM.]

24.7k · August 12, 2003

Jeep Wrangler if you don't need space.

A Jeep Cherokee (Not the Grand Cherokee) if you do. You can get 20mpg out of them with the straight 6 and they are relativly cheap.

I also like the full size Blazers and Bronco's.

you can pick them up cheap also. Blazers especially have a ton of parts available.

There are a lot of other good ones out there, but not as inexpensive.

If you need more room still then you are up to the Suburban. They are getting cheap for the old ones.

If you have money to burn I'd give you a different list. This list has a theme.

1.1k · August 12, 2003

I use and recogmend a Suzuki Samuri, 25 MPG on road 20 off!

Cheap, reliable, fun but rough riding. High ground clearance and have rescued many a Jeep.

24.7k · August 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by captnemo:
I use and recogmend a Suzuki Samuri, 25 MPG on road 20 off!

Cheap, reliable, fun but rough riding. High ground clearance and have rescued many a Jeep.

Forgot about those. I'll second the motion as the alternate to the Jeep Wrangler. ie not a lot of room but capable if you don't need it.

August 12, 2003

quote:
I've seen jeeps on mountian roads that I will only do on a motorcycle. We're talkin above 10K with no guard rail and over 1,000 feet of drop off.

That's why I like 'em.

quote:
Never understood why anybody would buy an SUV with automatic. What are they thinking????

I have NO idea. It's amazing how many 4X4s have them, though! I've been looking through eBay ads and the majority of 4WDs are autos!

quote:
Jeep Wrangler if you don't need space.

Space won't be a big issue. I'm just looking for something better suited for the type of driving I'm going to be doing with it. I'm looking at a lot of Wranglers and CJs - they're at the higher end of the price spectrum, though.

Thanks for the advice, everyone! Keep it coming!

BTW, anyone have an opinion on the Subaru Outback?

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

August 12, 2003

I think a bronco is a bit too high strung. For reliable use in the wild, I'd suggest a burro. It carries a lot of stuff and is easily refueled in the field. It will give gas rather than use gas. And last but not least, it will warn you with a loud hee-haw when it sees another geocacher.

9.5k · August 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:

quote:
I've seen jeeps on mountian roads that I will only do on a motorcycle. We're talkin above 10K with no guard rail and over 1,000 feet of drop off.

That's why I like 'em.

quote:
Never understood why anybody would buy an SUV with automatic. What are they thinking????

I have _NO_ idea. It's amazing how many 4X4s have them, though! I've been looking through eBay ads and the majority of 4WDs are autos!

quote:
Jeep Wrangler if you don't need space.

Space won't be a big issue. I'm just looking for something better suited for the type of driving I'm going to be doing with it. I'm looking at a lot of Wranglers and CJs - they're at the higher end of the price spectrum, though.

Thanks for the advice, everyone! Keep it coming!

BTW, anyone have an opinion on the Subaru Outback?

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

http://sthomas.net/sigimage.php

The Outback is a good car but for the money you'll be better off with the Forester. I can say with experience this car handled like a cat on a very rocky steep incline and some of the worst rebuilds of forest roads I've seen. Granted, my speed was curtailed to keep from bottoming out with my fully loaded car, but it wasn't stopped until I reached bumper deep snow with no chains and standard M&S tires. Backing out of that snow was a very small issue.

Cheers!

TL

9.5k · August 12, 2003

So RK, I noticed you advised against the Grand Cherokee? Aside from the mileage, I'm feeling the 94 I just bought is just as sure footed as my Subaru Forester and the turning radius is a mere 2 feet more. Care to expand on your opinion? I'm interested to know what to watch for.

Cheers!

TL

August 12, 2003

If you have the money, get a Volkswagen Touareg. Absolutely top of the line plushness inside with impeccable build quality. Not to mention they come with a turbo diesel engine option that gets very good gas mileage.

-----------------------------------------------------------

N38 49.027 W120 01.064

Garmin V (soon to come)

5.7k · August 12, 2003

My cachemobile is a Saturn Vue and gets 25mph on the highway. We've been very happy with it (and Saturn in general).

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

24.7k · August 12, 2003

Why an auto? Easier control in all situations except down a dadgum steep hill. But a manual overide on a locking torque converter can fix that.

24.7k · August 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TotemLake:
So RK, I noticed you advised against the Grand Cherokee? Aside from the mileage, I'm feeling the 94 I just bought is just as sure footed as my Subaru Forester and the turning radius is a mere 2 feet more. Care to expand on your opinion? I'm interested to know what to watch for.

Cheers!

TL

Cheap was the operating word in the original post. The Grand Cherokee is one of the better stock 4x4's on the road. But if you are on a budget you get better bang for the buck with the plain old Cherokee.

9.5k · August 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

quote:
Originally posted by TotemLake:
So RK, I noticed you advised against the Grand Cherokee? Aside from the mileage, I'm feeling the 94 I just bought is just as sure footed as my Subaru Forester and the turning radius is a mere 2 feet more. Care to expand on your opinion? I'm interested to know what to watch for.

Cheers!

TL

Cheap was the operating word in the original post. The Grand Cherokee is one of the better stock 4x4's on the road. But if you are on a budget you get better bang for the buck with the plain old Cherokee.

Ah - it must be late for me I saw it and didn't connect the dots- thanks. Ok. I got lucky. I got mine for 2500 from the dealer, and another 600 in parts gave me a completely rebuilt drive train. My brother works in a Dodge garage, so labor is being traded for sweat equity on his house. All wheel drive 4x4 auto with hi/lo transaxle.

Cheers!

TL

August 13, 2003

75 Dodge Ramcharger 4X4 V8

two words......

G A S --- H O G

Fun to drive...I like the old school aspect...only about $1800 Bucks...Cheap to register and insure....Takes me anywhere I want to go cacheing!!!!

So its cheap........but I think you would save more money in the long run with a V-6 model stickshift...4X4.....

August 13, 2003

High milage!!!

compared to a M1 Abrahms Tank!

12 +/- with wind behind me.

goes anywhere.

robbie

A family that Geocaches together... eventually gets wet.

required reading

My first bible

Great Orienteering Site!

PERSONAL PROTECTIVE MEASURES AGAINST INSECTS AND OTHER ARTHROPODS OF MILITARY SIGNIFICANCE

1.6k · August 13, 2003

You cannot go wrong with a 95-98 Suzuki Sidekick, 5 speed gets around 30 MPG US, you can get a 4 door 1.6 litre, OR a Sidekick Sport, slightly more fuel consumption, but more refinements, it has a 1.8 litre

For a bit more money, consider the late 2000 or 2001 Grand Vitara

They are an excellent deal, and you should have no trouble getting a deal on one...

check out edmunds.com

[This message was edited by canadazuuk on August 13, 2003 at 04:51 AM.]

1.6k · August 13, 2003

BTW, stick to a vehicle with a real 4wd system, ie: A DUAL RANGE TRANSFER CASE, and a FRAME (ie: not unibody)

Subaru doesn't cut it here, no offence

CRV and RAV4 won't fair any better, no transfer case, no frame

VW Taureg? Yeah, I'm gonna take my fifty bill luxury tall sports car into the bush, yeah!! (They are probably nice to drive though...)

August 13, 2003

Picked up a 94' jeep wrangler for 2 grand. Came already lifted 5", suspension, not body.

31" tires. 5 speed, LOTS of fun ! Gotta put in a heater before winter, had to put in u.v. joint and wheel cylinder, still have to replace body bushings.

But it is worth it ! this buggy goes everywhere ! Mileage not the best though.

Two roads diverged in the woods and I,

I took the one less traveled,

and that is how I found the cache.

August 13, 2003

My gps holder works has been working fine for the last year.

20.7k · August 13, 2003

I wouldn't trade my Grand Cherokee for anything, but if I was looking for a different 4x4 and I wanted to get it on the cheap, I would probably go with an older Wrangler.

2.1k · August 13, 2003

2000 Jeep Wrangler owner here. I love it. Paid only about 18K for it new. Sticker price was over 20k. Mine has the full doors, premium wheels and some of the other doodads. So it was a little more than the base models. You can get a brand new stock jeep (basic everything - including no back seat for 15k-16k and sometimes less. They hold their value good. We have a 2000 Ford Explorer that we paid over 10k more for and the Jeeps value is higher now than the explorer. I would buy an inexpensive used one if it's going to be for caching only. That way if you bang it up a little, you won't have a heart attack.

I would look at the Suzukis as weel, especially the Samurai's. They were being sold brand new in the early 90's for like 5-6k. If you can still find one around, you can probably get it cheap and abuse the heck out of it.

One added note. If you get a Wrangler, you will not want to get rid of it, ever. Except maybe for another one.

Brian

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

August 13, 2003

Well, we use a 1987 Bronco II for caching. We do the 4 X 4 caches and since we paid nothing for the Bronco, we don't really worry about what happens to it. We scrape against trees and don't worry about the paint etc. The Bronco II is small enough to get us between trees and places that full sized rigs can't make. My other car is a BMW M3 and there isn't any way that one is going caching!

August 13, 2003

Didn't the Suzuki's have a roll-over problem? Seem like I remember a recall on the older ones, I could be wrong.

I'm with Sbell. I drive a '93 cherokee sport and it takes me anywhere I want to go. It has AC but I have to roll the windows down manually. As far as reliability, you can't go wrong with a Jeep!

Og

Prophetically Challenged (or is that Pathetically?)

August 13, 2003

Wow. Thanks for all the great ideas/advice/suggestions.

I think the winner is Jeep Wrangler. There's a used car dealer down the street from where I work that has one (according to recycler.com). I'm going to go check it out today.

What kinds of things should I be looking for as tell-tale signs of a problem? I'll be checking to make sure that the undercarriage isn't covered in oily gook and making sure that it doesn't make any funky noises when it's running, but I've never bought a 4x4 before and I have no idea what, specifically, to look for on them.

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

August 13, 2003

Cruzin,

If it is an older one with manual locking hubs, make sure the lock and unlock easily. If they don't it can be a sign of neglect. Look for frame damage, cracking etc. Take a good look at the underside and look for signs of abuse. Check all the fluids. Make sure it shifts in and out of 4wd easily, no binding etc. Other than that, there are a lot of parts out there for jeeps, they are fairly easy to work on, and there is a good knowledge base out there for them.

One important thing to consider, a 4x4 is no better than the tires. Make sure the tires have a decent tread. You don't need big gnarly knobby tires, but you need something better than the thinly disguised highway tires that now come on most new sport utilities. M&S rating doesn't mean much. If anything can make or break an off road adventure, it is the tires.

No brand of 4x4 is immune from getting stuck, I have pulled out all brands, and have been pulled out myself by a few. The old adage is if you have never been stuck, you have never really been four wheeling. Carry at minimum a shovel and a tow strap. make sure your jeep has tow hooks at least on the front, and perferably on the back. If it doesn't have attachment points for a tow strap, it doesn't belong off road. The tow hooks should be able to support the full weight of the vehicle, and then some. The little steel loops that you see on some SUVs are used for tying them down on the ship when they come from overseas. Don't confuse these with a real attachment point. Most unibody type SUVs don't have suitable strength for attaching any sort of real hook. Avoid them.

Ground clearance really matters, low hanging plastic and step bars get seperated from the vehicle quickly in any real off road situation. Most newer small SUVs really are not designed to take off paved roads, more for snowy/slippery roads.

Driver skill is also paramount. You need to know what your jeep will and will not do. Spending the money on a 4x4 does not buy you experience. A good driver in a 2 wheel drive with good tires can go where an unexperienced driver with a 4x4 can't.

I have found over the years that shifting into four wheel drive rarely helps the situation, driver skill, ground clearance and good tires really counts. Someone once told me that having four wheel drive just means you get stuck 20 feet further down the road.

Patti and Matthew McKenna, Watsonville California

Garmin 72

[This message was edited by McKenna Family on August 13, 2003 at 07:42 AM.]

1.6k · August 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Og's outfit:
Didn't the Suzuki's have a roll-over problem? Seem like I remember a recall on the older ones, I could be wrong.

Please see this site, and bring an end to the misinformation about Suzuki vehicles 'rolling over'. Watch the video. I'll put money on Suzuki winning the jury trial due to happen. I'm thinking of going on holiday to watch the case when it FINALLY hits the courtroom.

There never was a recall of the 'accused' vehicle, which was a Samurai, not a Sidekick.

The 4 door Sidekick has room, toughness, and fuel economy, and are available at really good prices. Their durability is proven.

1.6k · August 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:

What kinds of things should I be looking for as tell-tale signs of a problem?

Make sure the transfer case works for sure. Try it in low range as well, BUT NOT ON PAVEMENT. One really good way to ruin a 4X4 is to drive it in 4wd on dry pavement. Obviously, check underneath thoroughly for telltale signs of abuse.

2.1k · August 13, 2003

How old is the Jeep?

Brian

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

August 13, 2003

It sounds like you've already decided on a Jeep, but i would go for an 84-88, or 89-95 4cyl Toyota, or a Samurai.

Art

www.yankeetoys.org

www.BudBuilt.com

www.pirate4x4.com

August 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:

What kinds of things should I be looking for as tell-tale signs of a problem?

Make sure the transfer case works for sure. Try it in low range as well, BUT NOT ON PAVEMENT. One really good way to ruin a 4X4 is to drive it in 4wd on dry pavement. Obviously, check underneath thoroughly for telltale signs of abuse.

Yeah, Canadazuuk is correct. A real 4x4 should never be shifted into four wheel drive on pavement. Some newer All Wheel Drive SUVs can, but that is because there are devices in the drive train that allow slippage. That slippage is great if you are using it on slick pavement, but a real drawback in a real off road situation. Some AWD compensate for the slippage by doing funny things with with the brakes, but most of the 4x4 magazines pan the systems pretty hard as being dangerous in real situations, and basically being a crutch for inexperienced drivers. You really are going the best route by purcasing an older substantial 4x4.

Patti and Matthew McKenna, Watsonville California

Garmin 72

August 13, 2003

I have a '91 full-sized Blazer (the last year of the "old body style", with the removable rear top), and I love it. (It was stolen from me in Dec. 2002, but I got it back in good shape. Just a joyride) If you ever need parts, they are readily available, due to the fact that the Suburban and P/U's are essentially the same. admittedly, the gas mileage isn't great, but it's a lot of fun to drive, and reliable as anything I've ever owned. 4wd works great, plenty of room, and it corners better than my wife's compact car. that's my 2 cents

"I'm 35 Years old, I am divorced, and I live in van down by the river!" - Matt Foley

August 13, 2003

Jeep has a new model called the Rubicon. It's a Wrangler all decked out with all the cool aftermarket goodies that 4x4'ers love. I think they are 34k.

August 13, 2003

I thought cheap was the criteria here.

Rubicon is a fantastic vehicle....but a new one is not cheap.

However, I think and older jeep could accomplish what you want. Fuel economy isn't the real strong point of the true 4x4 class.

As per the tippyness of the suzuki...any modified 4x4 is usually lifted with very soft springs. Sway bars are often disconnected as well. This all makes for poor road manners(tippyness). You have to make you compromises somewhere. Most rollovers can be attributed to people thinking their SUV is a car.

Rovers are my personal favorite...but I don't feel they meet your criteria.

If you want to do the true off-road thing...learn to fix things in wild and learn how to get yourself unstuck safely. AAA won't be able to help you.

AchStone

2.1k · August 13, 2003

Get some BFGoodrich AT's also. BF Goodrich is boasting that if you get stuck, they'll send the truck. Yeah...right...

Brian

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

August 13, 2003

1989 Ford F250 - 4" lift - 33" Goodrich Mud Terrains - 302 5 speed - 22 MPG. Best darn cache machine!

August 13, 2003

I got a suzuki stuck under my oilpan once but I just waited a while and knocked it off on the trail.

Jeeps rule. There is a select track and command track option on them. One allows for 4wd on pavement and one does not. Mine does not have the command track option. this only annoys me in snow when there are occasional patches of dry pavement where they salt the most which is usually curves.

I would glean the message boards over at http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/

Then look at www.autotrader.com and find a 96-98 jeep cherokee, they are getting very cheap.

Do not under any circumstances buy a 4 cylinder jeep. The Inline 6 has great torque and is extremely reliable!

Cache is Clay

August 13, 2003

originally posted by canadazuuk..

quote:
Please see this site, and bring an end to the misinformation about Suzuki vehicles 'rolling over'. Watch the video. I'll put money on Suzuki winning the jury trial due to happen. I'm thinking of going on holiday to watch the case when it FINALLY hits the courtroom.

WOW Thank you canada for bringing that to my attention! I really had no idea! What a scummy thing for the CU to do! I hope they do get this issue to court.

I as a consumer, was definitely effected by the C.U's erroneous test!

I've allways looked at those vehicles as being unsafe. Now I know different.

Thanks

Og

2.1k · August 13, 2003

While I agree that if you can get a 6 cyl Jeep instead of 4, then by all means. But there's nothing wrong with the 4's. My Wrangler is one. If you are talking Cherokees, then I would definitely recomend a 6.

Brian

As long as you're going to think anyway, think big. -Donald Trump

August 13, 2003

http://members.aol.com/imf16/GreenLiberty

New Cache Vehicle. Just picked it up. Only problem is the rear window is tinted so I can't put my Geocache window decal on! Anyone know who has the die cut ones to put on the outside?

"Leaving Protected Zone: Demonstrate Personal Accountability Beyond This Point".

[This message was edited by Crusso on August 13, 2003 at 09:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by Crusso on August 13, 2003 at 09:37 PM.]

4.1k · August 13, 2003

I've got a '99 dodge quadcab, 318 v-8, shortbed,standard tranny, 4x4. It will take you places you really don't want to be sometimes, but it has never let me down. It has about 96,000 miles on it and it is as strong as when we bought.

BFG A/T's are the only way to go for tires, Just don't get too large a size as you end up losing engine performance trying to turn the big sizes.

I ran a '74 Dodge 4x4 with the 318 engine for about 13 years and 140,000 miles. Should have kept it as a second vehicle, oh well.

The first rule of 4'wheeling is it is always easier to go downhill than uphill. Always think about coming back up before you head down that hill.

Just take it slow and easy and you can go just about anywhere.

Have fun.

John of 2oldfarts

*******************************************************

Human beings can always be counted on to assert with vigor their God-given right to be stupid.--Dean Koontz

August 13, 2003

try an old IH scout they dont cost that much got plenty of room for all your gear and passengers. and are great for offroading

August 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Og's outfit:
Didn't the Suzuki's have a roll-over problem? Seem like I remember a recall on the older ones, I could be wrong.

I'm with Sbell. I drive a '93...

Og

Prophetically Challenged (or is that Pathetically?)

I haven't rolled mine yet.

"Ich erhielt zwei Drehscheiben und ein Mikrophon"

August 13, 2003

Well, I started out with a Chevy Celebrity Wagon, I loved that POS

Scored this jeep from my dad for $1200 4l 6, Auto 4wd, AC etc.

Then I did this too it

Ran fine, only needed some oil and trans fluid and it was money.

Its a bit rougher than I like but its fun little POS to tool around in.

-Robert

August 13, 2003

Dang, I'm impulsive. Once I get something into my head I have a one-track mind - some would say that I become obsessive.

I bought a '98 Jeep Wrangler tonight.

I'll post some pictures tomorrow. I'm so excited!

--

Pehmva!

Random quote:

sigimage.php

August 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:
Dang, I'm impulsive. Once I get something into my head I have a one-track mind - some would say that I become obsessive.

I bought a '98 Jeep Wrangler tonight.

I'll post some pictures tomorrow. I'm so excited!

--

That's great!! We have never regretted getting our Wrangler for geocaching adventures and it is so much FUN!! Congratulations!!

Alchemist2000

August 14, 2003

.

August 14, 2003

How about one of these? Doesn't fit the good MPG criteria though...I hear they get about 6-8mpg.

M35A2, 2 1/2 ton, 6 wheel drive, 12 foot long cargo bed, turbo diesel, good tires, 30,148 miles and 1,338 hours, Cab/Personell heater, late style mirrors, can include rear bed racks if needed, Spare tire included, 5 speed spicer transmission, 2 speed transfer case, rear pintle hook, brakes are good, trailer hook-ups, can install front winch or dump kit, $4,250

Mr. 0

"Remember that nature and the elements are neither your friend or your enemy - they are actually disinterested."

Department of the Army Field Manual FM 21-76 "Survival" Oct. 1970

New cache vehicle?

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