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Deleting Legit Finds


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You have a disagreement with another geocacher in your area and suddenly notice that you're missing a good number of finds from your list...caches that you legitimately found and signed the log book. You check into it and it turns out that the cache owner that you had the disagreement with, deleted all your logs on every cache he owned. You re-posted your logs and they were deleted again and on every subsequent find of this guy's caches, your log was promptly deleted.

 

How would you feel about this? Is this the legit use of a cache owner's authority?

 

A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -Barry Goldwater

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A lot of bad things can happen when you don't get along. Losing your logs is one of the minor ones. If they were my logs, I would feel I triumphed in the disagreement because the owner had to resort to such pettiness.

 

That said, the powers-that-be at Geocaching.com are God over cache owners, and I'll go along with anything they have to say on such deletions.

 

-WR

 

"Besides physical caches, we have VIRTUal and VIRTUeless."

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Iv'e had disagreements over deleting logs on my caches with rules. But I've never let it spill over into my other caches. In the end the person who I had the disagreements with has his own cache rules and I complied. We came to an understanding.

 

But that doesn't help you. You are stuck not logging the guys caches. Too bad you can't organize a local boycott of the guys caches.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

Iv'e had disagreements over deleting logs on my caches with rules. But I've never let it spill over into my other caches. In the end the person who I had the disagreements with has his own cache rules and I complied. We came to an understanding.

 

But that doesn't help you. You are stuck not logging the guys caches. Too bad you can't organize a local boycott of the guys caches.

 

Wherever you go there you are.


 

 

That doesn't seem right. He's out of luck? Surely, this creates a problem for other caches if this guy is unstable enough to delete logs.

 

Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

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No matter how much I may dislike anouther cacher, regardless of how inflamed a situation might get, I'd never delete their logs. Ever.

 

Maybe its a maturity thing. It seems rather juvenile to go around deleting people's logs over petty arguments.

 

As for leaving amusing novelty vomit and/or fake feces in their caches, well, that's anouther story entirely icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

One of the more talented programers needs to write a script that checks those caches for you log and automatically relogs the find. How long before they get tired?

 

Can that be done?

 

george

 

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/39570_500.jpg

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.


 

I don't know, but if it can, someone can probably come up with one to automatically delete the log, too.....

 

I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should happen to get back before I return, please ask me to wait.

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quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

One of the more talented programers needs to write a script that checks those caches for you log and automatically relogs the find. How long before they get tired?

 

Can that be done?


 

Yep, but it's not good use of the site, and TPTB might get a tad annoyed.

 

I can think of several better alternatives, however, each more evil than the last.

 

Deleting legitimate "found" logs is a very big no-no.

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It's interesting how the same people keep bringing this up over and over without considering that there are two sides to every story. It just might not a case of a nut doing "drive-by deletions".

 

Caching is a sport and a game. One of the characterstics of good sportsmanship is playing well with others. If a cacher got, say, publicly slanderous with me, I would not want to play with them any more. Rather than vandalizing their caches (as was suggested already in this thread and numerous times every OTHER time this subject comes up) I'd consider it the more dignant thing to do to just not play with them any longer. I wouldn't find his caches and he wouldn't find mine. I'm just not motivated to play with people that seek to hurt me.

 

I consider the mutual deletions of finds more honorable than the tire-tool approach.

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quote:
Originally posted by robertlipe:

It's interesting how the same people keep bringing this up over and over without considering that there are two sides to every story. It just might not a case of a nut doing "drive-by deletions".


Im of the thinking that if your going to delete someone's find you better have a good reason. And deleting a find thats 'legal'(meets whatever requirements the owner has set) is not acceptable.

"I dont like them anymore, they're not the geo-police why should I deal with their questions, and I think they stole my cache" seem like childish reasons to me.

 

waypoint_link.gif22008_1700.gif37_gp_logo88x31.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by CYBret:

Yeah, it's a rehash of an old topic . . one that's been around for quite a while.

 

Since no one else has done it yet, I guess it's up to me.

 

http://www.fragrant.demon.co.uk/golden.html

 

Yep . . been around a LONG time.

 

Bret


Interesting link, Bret! I think this thread and this thread are slightly more recent. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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This the first time I have posted in the forums but this has gone on to long and everybody keeps bring it back up . This sbell guy is loco if your were from this area you would know it , but all you ever see is his forums post. He goes out on cache hunts carrying a gun trashes everything about everybody, is this type of cacher you want out there hunting with your kids, I have only met a couple of local cachers and sbell is one of them and I know when to cross the street ahead of him. And you the regular posters just keep putting in your two cents worth like you know whats really going on. Be real if you know for sure say so if not just shut up and cache hunt

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

 

How would you feel about this? Is this the legit use of a cache owner's authority?


 

It happened to me once, but the cache owner assured me it was accidental. Good enough for me, and my replacement log remains in place well over a year later.

 

I agree with all who state that to deliberately delete legitimate logs is an abuse of the cache owner's privileges.

 

I think it speaks well of us as a community that this problem has occurred so infrequently.

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quote:
Originally posted by SpotDog:

This the first time I have posted in the forums but this has gone on to long and everybody keeps bring it back up . This sbell guy is loco if your were from this area you would know it , but all you ever see is his forums post. He goes out on cache hunts carrying a gun trashes everything about everybody, is this type of cacher you want out there hunting with your kids, I have only met a couple of local cachers and sbell is one of them and I know when to cross the street ahead of him. And you the regular posters just keep putting in your two cents worth like you know whats really going on. Be real if you know for sure say so if not just shut up and cache hunt


 

I just noticed this thread and since I got bashed, I figured I better reply.

 

Spotdog, I have no idea who you are, so I assume that you don't know me either. You state that I'm loco, but you don't know me. I am aware that a local cacher had been spreading his enmity regarding me, so I guess this is where your post comes from.

 

You state that I carry a gun on cache hunts. Read the forums, many cachers have carry permits and legally carry firearms. As for mine, you would not know whether I am or not on any particular day, as I don't advertise that fact.

 

Take your anger somewhere else. Heck, I don't even know that this thread is about my situation or if another cacher has dropped a nut.

 

[This message was edited by sbell111 on March 05, 2003 at 09:14 AM.]

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Maybe we should have a feature like the 1500 minute edit limit here in the forums.

 

Logs could not be deleted after two days. Additionally logs can only be edited for 90 days. For the same reason the log find counts are static.

 

39197_2100.gif

Do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

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I guess a cache owner can delete anything he or she wants to. But that doesn't make it right to delete legitimate finds. If someone is doing that, I see nothing wrong with publicizing who the person is so that others in the area can choose whether or not to visit those caches. I know I would avoid caches owned by someone who would delete finds over a disagreement.

 

pokeanim3.gif

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This is very petty. I'd be tempted to go and kidnap all of his caches and demand that he not delete your logs as a ransom. Once the caches are returned, any further log deletions will result in another kidnapping. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Of course I'd never do such a thing, but the thought would enter my mind! icon_razz.gif

 

--CoronaKid

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

How would you feel about this? Is this the legit use of a cache owner's authority?


 

I wouldn't feel anything.

 

Of course it's legit! (He can tear the paper page out of the physical log and throw it out too!)

 

What he can't do is enter your home and destroy your record of such.

 

As for his removing your public posting, while inconsiderate, it shouldn't really impact your life. Don't invest your feelings/ego in anothers actions that you can't control!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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I posted a question on the getting started forum about the purpose of verification and the purely theoretical possibility of a cache owner deleting finds. I was not even sure that the system would allow this. Brian posted a reply there, and I suspect that this thread was to bring the general issue to the larger general forum.

 

I am a newbie and know nothing about the history of said war. I do think it is in general an important issue of sportmanship, and I appreciate its discussion regardless of the specific bad blood of any particular incident.

 

I guess I have a lot to learn about this game, as I find it difficult to imagine how two cachers can get into a conflict, except in a flame war on these forums. I guess if you destroyed or defiled my cache, I would be upset with you, but why would anyone do that without prior antagonism?

 

Are there any sanctions for cahcers who intentionally hurt another's cache?

 

Nesdon

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger."

Sam Clemens

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quote:
Originally posted by Sock Puppet:

To BrianSnat, Maybe if you spent more time caching and less time posting and stirring up trouble you'd be an ok guy.

To the rest of you, the cache owner has the power, period the end. I don't care how much you gripe about, or bicker about if it is good or not for the game, it comes down to the simple fact that those who can cache and those who can't post.

Sbell111 or sbell what ever your name is you sound like a huge baby that had his rattle taken away from him, quit your cry'n and get on with life.

 

Ya'll chew on that for a while.


 

Hmmmm....

Watch who you insult, they may have more "friends" than you realize. It was an interesting question. If you (general you) didn't like it, you should have simply moved along.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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quote:
Originally posted by Sock Puppet:

... it comes down to the simple fact that those who can cache and those who can't post.


 

And to which camp do you belong, Mr. Puppet?

 

I don't know what "nerve" you think you've hit, but you are correct that the cache owner has the ability to delete any log. That fact couldn't be more obvious; it doesn't make it "fair play."

 

It's nice to see from examples in these threads that those who had legitimate finds deleted apparently didn't seek retribution by the equally obvious method ... I suppose the offending owners were counting on the cachers they had wronged to demonstrate a level of maturity and sense of fair play they lacked.

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on March 05, 2003 at 01:13 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Sock Puppet:

To BrianSnat, Maybe if you spent more time caching and less time posting and stirring up trouble you'd be an ok guy.


HAHAHA!

The guy with 12 finds (all virtual and probably fake) and zero hides telling the guy with 104 finds and 43 hides to spend more time caching!

This sockpuppet is a pretty funny gal/guy!

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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quote:
Originally posted by Sock Puppet:

Well Mr. Mopar you ain't makin' any great caching waves either are you.


dadgum! icon_frown.gif According to this poll in another thread my 25 finds last month puts me in the top 30% of those who responded. I thought i was doing ok. I guess I could sit here and log a bunch of fake finds on easy virtuals to get my count a little higher, but I personally don't find that as fulfilling as you seem to, so why bother?

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Could someone please pick up these stinky socks and get them outta here. Cheese and crackers, we're trying to keep this place nice for others!

Thanks.

 

Cache you later,

Planet

 

I feel much more like I do now than when I first got here.

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I couldn't agree more. It seems to me that sock puppet is a troll... just wants to stir up trouble under a sock puppet account instead of under his or her real identity.

 

On another note, I liked the suggestion of logging the finds on an archived cache. That way you still get credit for them in your stats and don't have to deal with the deletion problem.

 

pokeanim3.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Rygel:

That's another thing that bothers me, people who think just because they have more finds they are somehow better then others.


 

The number of logs one has doesn't make you better than those with fewer. The issue is one of right or wrong. If an owner publishes criteria for an acceptable find and a finder meets those criteria, then the find should stand. If an owner deletes such a find, it is wrong. The cache owner is not playing by established rules, some of which he/she established.

 

Resorting to counting finds/hides of those who post here to establish credibility is evading the original issue. There is no need to stoop to this level.

 

So what is the speed of dark?

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This illustrates a fundamental flaw in the logging system here at GC.com.

 

While it is true that the cache owner has control over another player's find, the finder is the one that OWNS the find. Let me say again, the FINDER owns the find, not the owner. He found it, it was his experience, his sweat, his tears, his joy. It's his! The owner shouldn't have the power to simply deny the find actually occured; dispute it, yes, but not simply deny it by deleting the Found It log.

 

In fact, here is how I would do it:

  • Logs can not be deleted from a cache page.
  • A check box for caches that require verification other than a logbook--password required to log a find and the password is something found on site.
  • Owner can hide, but not delete, a log. User, date, type of log, etc. is still visible, but log text and pictures are hidden.
  • Anyone can dispute a find.
  • Owner can override a dispute, or confirm a find if disputed. Maybe even confirm the find so it can't be disputed.
  • Disputed finds are removed from find list and marked as disputed.
  • Moderators can override a dispute or confirm a find.
  • Multiple persons can vote to confirm a dispute, thus removing the find, or to confirm the find and remove the dispute.
  • ...there's more, but no need to list them here.

 

I have no power to implement these changes and this is likely an exercise in touchtyping and nothing else. However, I still hold that the finder owns the find, not the cache owner. Owners on this site have too much power.

 

There aren't the proper checks and balances.

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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy & The Beast:

quote:
Originally posted by Rygel:

That's another thing that bothers me, people who think just because they have more finds they are somehow better then others.


 

The number of logs one has doesn't make you better than those with fewer. The issue is one of right or wrong. If an owner publishes criteria for an acceptable find and a finder meets those criteria, then the find should stand. If an owner deletes such a find, it is wrong. The cache owner is not playing by established rules, some of which he/she established.

 

Resorting to counting finds/hides of those who post here to establish credibility is evading the original issue. There is no need to stoop to this level.

 

So what is the speed of dark?


 

What is with people in this forum? If you had read my earlier posts you would see that what I think of people deleting legitimate logs.

 

And you would also see that there are some who seem to think they are more qualified to post here and pass judgement because they have more finds.

 

What they really have is more free time then the rest of us.

 

Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

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Se7en I disagree, The finder may have found it, he may have put his blood sweat and tears in to but the find still belongs to the cache owner. If he doesn't put the cache out, there is nothing to find. I could go and hike for a day and at the end of the hike there would be nothing, but by your criteria I could claim it as a find. I still say the cache hider has the ultimate power and until things change (and I'm not saying they should) thats the way it is.

 

As far as finds vs. posts go, with a very few exceptions I have almost a 3 to 1 find ratio more than the posters that have a 100 to 1 post ratio more than me. If I used my real name I would recieve hate mail until my mail box was full, it has happened in the past anytime I "disagreed" with the posting gurus.

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quote:
Originally posted by Rygel:

That's another thing that bothers me, people who think just because they have more finds they are somehow better then others.

 

Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.


 

I don't hink I've ever seen a cacher say they're better than some with fewer finds.... more experineced maybe but not better.

 

george

 

39570_500.jpg

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

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In my opinion, when a person posts a cache to this site, they are telling all cachers (and future cachers) worldwide that there is a cache here that they are welcome to find and log. It is silly to me to think that the hider has the right to delete the logs of a cacher just because he does not like the individual. He may have the power, but that does not give him the right.

 

In my opinion, a person with integrity would not take such action.

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