Geocaches removed by the State of Maine

[aa1yb]

Just thought fellow Geocachers would be interested in knowing that the State of Maine Department of Conservation has decided to remove the 2 Geocaches (Allagash Stash I and II)that myself and N1NJB had placed in the Allagash Wilderness Waterway. The Department feels that these Geocaches would cause an increase of visitation to the area and thus be harmful to wilderness aspect they want to maintain there.

If anyone is interested I will gladly forward the emails from the State giving their reasons for doing this.

I also am interested if other Geocachers feel that this may be a sign that we might be limited in where we can put geocaches beyond what normal common sense would tell you. aa1yb@arrl.net

[+planetrobert]

Wilderness caches are also prohibited in the area where I am from. Abandoned Property and such, also it involves the use of mechanical devices, not in keeping with the wilderness theme.

 

Now where did I set my GPS???

[+Breaktrack]

So, in response, you have notified all the cachers in Maine to go to those sites each and every weekend anyway, to have a picnic, throw the frisbee around and increase visitation to those wilderness sites anyway so that their reasons will be moot, right?

 

I crack myself up sometimes... LOL.

[+Breaktrack]

So, in response, you have notified all the cachers in Maine to go to those sites each and every weekend anyway, to have a picnic, throw the frisbee around and increase visitation to those wilderness sites anyway so that their reasons will be moot, right?

 

I crack myself up sometimes... LOL.

[aa1yb]

I wrote a nice response back to the gentleman. Also I let some fellow hams know and there is going to be a forum at the statewide hamfest in Lewiston on the 30th where this will be addressed.

[aa1yb]

I wrote a nice response back to the gentleman. Also I let some fellow hams know and there is going to be a forum at the statewide hamfest in Lewiston on the 30th where this will be addressed.

[+rdw]

What this demonstrates more clearly than anything is that, as much of a pain as it may be, we really should ask for permission to place caches. Geocaching is getting too big to sneak under anyone's radar. It's sucks that your's got yanked though. Maybe this is an opportunity to ask for forgiveness and make friends with the State of Maine. Perhaps you and they could agree on a less sensitive area to place one.

 

rdw

[the tapir]

While I've never been there, from what I know about the Allagash, there will never be a real problem with overuse ... it's just too hard to get there!

 

It's very strange to think that environmental authorities are so vehemently obstructing something that may bring (at the most) another 30-40 people to a given area in a year ... rather disrespectful and demeaning of Gaia's ability to regenerate herself, I'd say!

 

After all, what's a few hundred people, or a few million years, to Gaia?

 

I guess it helps them (the environmental authorities) justify their existence...

 

the tapir

[+Macro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by the tapir:

 

It's very strange to think that environmental authorities are so vehemently obstructing something that may bring (at the most) another 30-40 people to a given area in a year ... rather disrespectful and demeaning of Gaia's ability to regenerate herself, I'd say!

 

After all, what's a few hundred people, or a few million years, to Gaia?

 

the tapir

---

 

Couldn't agree more. While I respect a governing bodies authority, I cant help but laugh at their ignorance at times. The example I use all the time is asphalt. Unless it is constantly maintained, and recovered regularly....eventually mom nature just breaks it up with the cold/hot cycle, spreads it apart (with water turning to ice in the cracks), and before you know it there is grass growing from those cracks. I watched an abandoned lot over the course of about 25 years....it started out as a paved lot back in around 79'...with no interaction at all, over time it was overcome with weeds and grass until eventually you can no longer see that there was ever pavement there. Nature will always take back what belongs to her, no silly human is going to get in the way of that.

 

That all being said, can my footprints on a deer path really be considered a danger to an environment? I'm not saying that we should go bushwacking through wildlife preserves, nor should we trample wildflowers, but if I go a few feet of a worn trail to grab a cache, does anyone here seriously believe that the Earth minds?

[+TAT]

AA1YB and N1NJB:

If I remember correctly, John’s bridge was one of the cache locations. Canoe access to John’s bridge is currently being disputed in Maine Supreme Court. See this link: http://www.maineenvironment.org/nwoods/history_of_john's_bridge_access.htm Also, the State of Maine Department of Conservation has agreed to promote the Wilderness use of the Allagash Waterway Wilderness area. For those reasons, I would be very surprised if you were given permission to place a cache. My opinion is that we should all respect Geocaching’s rules and not take the chance of punishing them for our political gain.

 

Perhaps a compromise would be a virtual cache in a legal location. To register a “find” you could require the geocacher to register their opinion and suggestions for guiding us all to do what is right. Keep in mind that Maine residents are routinely asked to vote and we do want to do what IS right, not just what the extremists say is right.

[aa1yb]

TAT: We certainly did not have a political agenda when we put the Geocache at John's Bridge. Our only motive was to set up a series of Caches which would guide Geocachhcers who are unfamiliar with the Allagash Wilderness through the area so that they may enjoy it as well. As far as I'm concerned any place that has logging trucks running through it at 60 m.p.h. is hardly a wilderness area. This does not mean that I don't think it should be protected. This past fall was my first time up in this area and I am thankful that my friend N1NJB, who has been going there since he was a child, thought that I would enjoy it and he also thought that it would be a different kind of Geocaching experience from the other Geocaches in the State. By the way we already are in the planning stages for a different approach to the Allagash area. Stay Tuned!

[+Smokehouse]

Heaven forbid they have more visitors to a state park that the people of that state pay for, maintain and pay the employees. I agree with the earlier poster who said how many people can it be. Do they have busloads of people coming in everyday running around with handheld GPS's? It couldn't possible be all that many people, we can see that from the logs of the caches and what's wrong with wanting to get out into nature and enjoy it and at the same time have some fun. I truly doubt that an Army surplus ammo can or a tupperware container are going to destroy the environment. Let's be reasonable. I am all for obeying the rules but some rules have no basis in reality or praticality. Are they going to ban certain hiking boots because their soles are too thick, or overweight people because they are leaving too deep an impression in the ground?

Oh well...

 

The KGB

[+Renegade Knight]

Once a cache is 10 miles out of town (here in Boise, Idaho) they get visited about once every month. That hardly qualifies as wear on the land. Maybe there are more people in Main all wiht big feet who stomp around the forest and trample everything...Or maybe not. It needs addressed. And it may come to pass that wilderness become verbotten.

[+The GeoGadgets Team]

I'm sorry, this may end up being a rant, so I'll just apologize now.

 

I am so tired of "public lands" that have been "removed" from "public use" by the powers that be.

 

As an active four-wheel drive enthusiast, I get tired of the attitude by environmentalists that all four-wheelers are 18 year old, high-testosterone-producing males driving their HUGE 4x4's out into pristine wilderness areas and driving over every endangered species they can find! By stereotyping all four-wheelers with this description, can I then stereotype all environmentalists as tree-hugging, dirt-munching druids wearing Birkenstocks and dreadlocks and living on commune, driving a psychedelic-painted VW microbus, smoking hash and weaving hemp into useful items that they sell on street corners? NO, though I don't really know where the above description of a stereotypical environmentalist came from...

 

When Former Pres. Clinton signed that land-grab deal for making 11 million acres into a "Wilderness Refuge" around the U.S. and limiting public access to lands that were formerly used for grazing cattle, sustainable farming or just hiking, camping, fishing and enjoying getting away from the big cities, it was a betrayal of the worst kind to the American people. Almost as bad as selling Cray computers to the Chinese... but that's another issue, so don't get me started.

 

Now... (Red takes a deep breath in, blows out the poison thoughts imposed upon her by the over-paid powermongers in government) if this cache was placed in a State-controlled park, that may be another issue, but the real reason they are removing it is because of liability and they are hiding behind the issue of over-use. Or, they could really be claiming over-use and then they ARE trying to take our land away from us and they killed Kenny - THOSE BASTARDS!

 

Seriously ("I thought all of this was serious?" "You shut up!"), keep tabs on what is done with that area, because once they take it away you will never get it back, even for casual hiking, etc.

 

Sorry about the voices. What? You don't hear them? And people call me crazy!

----------

Lori aka: RedwoodRed

KF6VFI

"I don't get lost, I investigate alternative destinations."

GeoGadgets Team Website

Comics, Video Games and Movie Fansite

 

[+The GeoGadgets Team]

I'm sorry, this may end up being a rant, so I'll just apologize now.

 

I am so tired of "public lands" that have been "removed" from "public use" by the powers that be.

 

As an active four-wheel drive enthusiast, I get tired of the attitude by environmentalists that all four-wheelers are 18 year old, high-testosterone-producing males driving their HUGE 4x4's out into pristine wilderness areas and driving over every endangered species they can find! By stereotyping all four-wheelers with this description, can I then stereotype all environmentalists as tree-hugging, dirt-munching druids wearing Birkenstocks and dreadlocks and living on commune, driving a psychedelic-painted VW microbus, smoking hash and weaving hemp into useful items that they sell on street corners? NO, though I don't really know where the above description of a stereotypical environmentalist came from...

 

When Former Pres. Clinton signed that land-grab deal for making 11 million acres into a "Wilderness Refuge" around the U.S. and limiting public access to lands that were formerly used for grazing cattle, sustainable farming or just hiking, camping, fishing and enjoying getting away from the big cities, it was a betrayal of the worst kind to the American people. Almost as bad as selling Cray computers to the Chinese... but that's another issue, so don't get me started.

 

Now... (Red takes a deep breath in, blows out the poison thoughts imposed upon her by the over-paid powermongers in government) if this cache was placed in a State-controlled park, that may be another issue, but the real reason they are removing it is because of liability and they are hiding behind the issue of over-use. Or, they could really be claiming over-use and then they ARE trying to take our land away from us and they killed Kenny - THOSE BASTARDS!

 

Seriously ("I thought all of this was serious?" "You shut up!"), keep tabs on what is done with that area, because once they take it away you will never get it back, even for casual hiking, etc.

 

Sorry about the voices. What? You don't hear them? And people call me crazy!

----------

Lori aka: RedwoodRed

KF6VFI

"I don't get lost, I investigate alternative destinations."

GeoGadgets Team Website

Comics, Video Games and Movie Fansite

 

[+Slate]

I am very disappointed to see that those caches have been removed. I was looking forward to searching for them when I head up there on vacation again this summer. I do have an idea for virtual cache that I just might have to set up. There are definite policy problems with how the Allagash is managed. A couple of issues that have been in the news recently are parking and access at John’s Bridge as previously mentioned, and the construction of Churchill Dam without approval of the US Army Corps of Engineers and National Park Service. The Allagash today is not what was envisioned when the waterway was originally created. There is a lot more access to the waterway, which obviously takes away from the “wilderness experience”. Original access to the waterway was from Telos landing. At some point a bridge and a boat ramp was constructed at Chamberlain Thoroughfare. The first time I visited the Allagash I was very surprised to see a dock and concrete boat ramp, that’s sure not what I was expecting. I have a problem with encouraging motor boat use on a wilderness waterway, but that’s another whole issue, and I doubt that boats will ever be restricted on Chamberlain Lake like they are on the rest of the waterway. Despite the increased use and accessibility, 1998 Bureau of Public Land drafted a long-range Allagash management plan which includes motorized access to Eagle Lake and a new parking area at Allagash Stream to permit more day use. That sure doesn’t sound like good management of a wilderness area to me.

 

I would be very interested in reading the email from Department of Conservation

If you could forward it to me.

[+TAT]

That really sucks! Getting you cache yanked is bad enough, but to hit upon the epicenter of the outdoors access debate in Maine – without a political agenda, is really bad luck. I hope this helps explain why they had to remove your cache.

 

In 1966, Maine residents voted in a referendum to create the Allagash Wilderness Waterway. The state has decided to bar boat access at John’s bridge to reduce the number of day users in the area and to maintain the wilderness aspect of the Allagash Waterway. The decision attempts to balance the needs of two groups of people. Vacationers, river guides, camp owners, environmentalists, and wilderness advocates benefit from less access and maintaining the wilderness aspect. The local fishermen and day users who wish to access Eagle Lake benefit from boat access at John’s bridge. The two sides have been fighting for about 12 years now. The John’s Bridge issue has reached the Maine Supreme Court, and both sides have agreed to put a hold on further litigation, until they conclude mitigation on the Churchill Dam debacle. Meanwhile, so many other exceptions have been made that there really isn’t a consistent plan.

 

It is unfortunate that John’s bridge access has ended up in the courts. The impact of fights like this goes beyond the original issue. Consider the new International Appalachian Trail. The organization is having difficulty getting local support because people know they will lose control of their land if the AT goes through it. And who can blame them?

 

If people or organizations and companies get a negative opinion of geocaching, we will not be welcome by them. One sure way to get a bad reputation is place them based on our own intuition without regard to rules or other people. So yes, that cache is a sign that we might be limited in where we can put geocaches beyond what normal common sense would tell us. Especially if we naively place caches in places we don’t know well, and if we don’t get permission. In any event, the person who removed your cache was probably required, by law, because it is not consistent with maintaining the wilderness aspect.

 

Anyway, I want to thank you for placing caches and taking on the responsibility. By thinking about your cache and its location, I learned a lot about what I want to do with two other caches I’ve been planning. Good luck with the next one(s)!

 

I tried to boil this conflict down to one paragraph, so it is very over-simplified and based on my limited perception. For more reading and other views, just search for “john's bridge allagash” on your favorite search engine.

[+sbukosky]

Seeing as we have some hams involved in this. In two months it will be Field Day! Sounds like the club station should be set up there this year.

 

Steve N9BGH

 

Steve Bukosky N9BGH

Waukesha Wisconsin