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Caches destroyed by organized cavers


Vader

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Someone above in this discussion has said,

 

"several of the caves in question have been nominated as significant with regards to the Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988. As such, distributing their locations on the internet is illegal."

 

At best, this is a misinformed opinion, and at worst, a deliberate mistatement of fact. A reading of the act (see, for example, http://www.umsl.edu/~joellaws/ozark_caving/mss/fedlaw.htm ) shows that the relevant section is this:

 

"SEC. 5. CONFIDENTIALITY OF INFO RMATION CONCERNING NATURE AND LOCATION OF

SIGNIFICANT CAVES.

 

(a) IN GENERAL.-Information concerning the specific location of any

significant cave may not be made available to the public under section 552 of

title 5, United States Code, unless the Se cretary determines that disclosure

of such information would further the purposes of this Act and would not

create a substantial risk of harm, theft, or destruction of such cave."

 

Some organized cavers have cited this section as if it does actually prohibit the publication of the locations of any "sigificant cave" in *any* form, in print, visual media or via the internet, for public consumption, except perhaps by and for cavers themselves. Actually the statute mentioned

(5 USC Sec. 552) is better known as the Freedom of Information Act and this clause in section 5 of the FCRPA was added after extensive lobbying by the NSS who were, perhaps justly, that someone could obtain the entire "significant cave" list with their locations via an FOIA request. The release of these caves locations via FOIA is the *only* form of publication made "illegal" under FCRPA. The managers of local, state or national lands may have a Memorandum Of Understanding with various grottoes or the community at large that references FCRPA, but these MOUs do *not* have the force of law, nor any impact on private publication in any form.

 

I'm not going to debate the merits of the culture of secrecy that has grown up in caving circles over the last forty years, as there are cogent arguments on both sides. In many other fields, "security through obscurity" has been shown to be a failed approach, and this approach may be failing in regards to cave conservation as the awareness of caves increases among the general population. Education may be the only long-term solution; people have to be given the reasons to *care* about what happens to caves and the formations, wildlife and other resources therein. I just bristle when I see the FCRPA used as a bludgeon whenever someone who *does* car e about caves happens to run across a reference to a cave's location in some public forum.

 

Cavers do not have a lock on ethical behavior, and the cavers who destoiyed these caches are as wrong as those who go into public libraries to deface books, magazi nes and other records that contain old locations for certain caves. There is no reason to assume that other visitors to a particular cave would not be as careful and conservation-minded as the organized cavers themselves. Work with landowners and manage rs to develop cave management plans if the activity at a particular cave concerns you, and help to gate, patrol or monitor it if you have to. But there are far too many caves to gate, patrol or monitor them all, so people need to be aware of special cond itions, wildlife and all the other factors that need protection.

 

Geocachers also need to be aware that placing caches on protected land may run afoul of littering laws, which has happened here when some (above-ground) geocaches were removed by park personnel. Both sides need to be aware of the law that actually *applies* to this situation.

 

//dna//

 

??

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I don't believe that the threats of lawsuits was due to a belief that a law was broken as much as a scare tactic by the cavers. They understand the context and letter of the law. They also realize that an individual, faced with litigation, may back down simply due to the legal expenses involved.

 

"Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!"

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So... what do cavers think of other cavers that place caches near cave? Here is a 'vacation' cache that was placed by a caver from IN near a cave here in Alabama.

 

There are probably as many different answers as there are cavers. I should think that most would not object to this particular cache since there is no mention of the cache being in or near a cave. They will probably object in such cases where the cache is in or very close to the entrance of a cave and in direct proportion as there are conservation, access, and safety issues for this particular cave. Vacation caches are often not approved by geocaching.com for the very reason that the persons who place them are less likely to have knowledge of these issues. We can only hope that the hider knew what he or she was doing.

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Jeff,

I'm a caver and I see no problem with it. I look at it and see that the cache, "Hooser Caver," is named after a caver or person, not a cave. As far as I can tell, it does not give any cave locations. It also does not lead you to a cave unprepared, nor does it look like it is hidden "inside" a cave. I don't see where it would take any special equiptment to hunt this cashe. (helmet, 3 sources of light, wet suit, climbing gear, ect.) IMO, it is not a cave cache at all. It is a cache placed by a caver. Since most cavers own a GPS unit, believe it or not, there are quite a few cavers that are cachers. Most (Can't say all) cavers believe that caves are unique geological features that are inappropriate to place caches in. It's that simple. Other wise I amagine that the placer of this cache would have placed it inside a cave.

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ok.ok let me try to shed some light for you vader and for all the cachers supporting him.first off i have no conection with colorado cavers or vader or anyone for that matter.i am a caver and i am a cacher.belive me people they do not mix.caving is dangerous and should never be attempted alone.caching is a family sport and is enjoyed by kids of all ages.i like caches by caves but caches in caves.....no no no my friends.the last thing i want to see in a cave is trash or anything that dosent belong there.this is not an issue in my area.and if i hear much more of this anti-caver talk i may become an anti-cacher myself.please people if your not into caving you really dont need to be around them...nor leading non cavers to caves.i am beginning to see why parks and national lands are not allowing caching in there lands.and face it people some cachers are so rude and careless on how they trod thru whatever they need too to get there numbers up for that day.

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the last thing i want to see in a cave is trash or anything that dosent belong there

...

please people if your not into caving you really dont need to be around them...nor leading non cavers to caves.

Question #1: What does belong there? Despite the "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time" belief, a remarkable number of cavers leave anchors. Do they belong there?

 

Question#2: When did caves become the exclusive territory of cavers? When did this group appoint themselves as the official land managers of all caves. It sounds to me like you're assuming a lot of rights and responsibilty that don't belong to you.

 

If the cache owner has permission to place the cache in that location by the land owner/manager what gives cavers the right to decide for themselves to remove the cache?

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Question #1: What does belong there? Despite the "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time" belief, a remarkable number of cavers leave anchors. Do they belong there?

 

Question#2: When did caves become the exclusive territory of cavers? When did this group appoint themselves as the official land managers of all caves. It sounds to me like you're assuming a lot of rights and responsibilty that don't belong to you.

 

If the cache owner has permission to place the cache in that location by the land owner/manager what gives cavers the right to decide for themselves to remove the cache?

Answer #1: Anchors? I've yet to see one, but I'm not into vertical caving. In any case, it doesn't justify a geocache in a cave.

 

Answer #2: Caves have never been the "exclusive territory" of cavers. Cavers don't have a magic passport that lets them into any cave they wish. They require the proper permissions and authorizations just like anyone else.

 

As for the last paragraph, if appropriate permission is given to place a cache, then there is no problem. In this particular case, no permission was given.

 

George

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Did the vandals know the cacher had "no permission"?

Who gave them "permission" to destroy them?

Stealing and vandalism are wrong. No matter how they are "justified" by the thieves and vandals.

GDAE

Yes, I do believe they knew. There's a looooong history behind this incident, including the geocacher(s) knowingly placing caches in senstive areas out of spite (and this was before the cache burning incident).

 

George

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OK people, everyone take a break and relax. tensions are getting high again and I do not want to close this thread.

 

FYI I have a list of archived caches that I am working on, with the owners permission, to either make no show or change the coordinates to a generic number perhaps N39 00.000 W104 00.000. The decision on which to do to is pending. These are Colorado caches and Colorado cave locations that are going to be protected by this method.

 

What has been done before is done. Its time to move on and everyone have fun.

 

 

Has anyone seen what I did with my extra can of carbide???

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Nope, no cache, but that crawl was certainly a challenge for me. If I were a few pounds heavier I would have been stuck.

 

If you look closely, you can just make out the person behind me (the small bright dot to left of my helmet). It was even tighter back there.

 

Caving seems to favor people with smaller bones :(

 

George

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Wait for cavers to retreat into cave. Seal cave entrance with high explosives. Savor revenge. I know this is a little extreme, so perhaps we can come to a middle ground and just beat them up a little. icon_biggrin.gif<!--graemlin::(-->

i might just try and find a cave now to place a cache.it will be really easy though just follow the line of paint all over the ground and look for the big orange arrow on the cave wall pointing towards the cache.i think ill just leave a chisel so people can leave logs right on the wall.

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Closest I ever came to claustrophobia in a cave was when I had two newbies behind me and I crawled into a dead end crawlway where i was just about as tight as you are in the pix. (I was in a phreatic tube, though- no horizontal wiggling room)

 

My thought was: "What if one of THEM gets stuck- or panics?"

 

Caves are not for the untrained.

 

However cachers that know caving can surely blend the two experiences.

 

Lets give people credit for knowing their limitations- even though we know many don't.

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Closest I ever came to claustrophobia in a cave was when I had two newbies behind me and I crawled into a dead end crawlway where i was just about as tight as you are in the pix. (I was in a phreatic tube, though- no horizontal wiggling room)

That cave was my first "wild" cave trip.

 

On the way back out, I wanted to test my nerve. Halfway through that crawl I turned out my light. It's an "interesting" sensation to be in complete, silent darkness, tightly sandwiched between two massive rocks. That's as close to being buried alive I ever want to get.

 

I didn't freak, but I sure wouldn't want to be in that position involuntarily....or alone with nobody knowing I was there.

 

George

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(Is this sufficiently "on topic"?)

reply to George above,

 

One of my favorite things to do in a cave is to sit with my light out (and all in the party of course). We will sometimes just sit silently for a half hour or so in a test to see how long we can go until somebody gets paranoid and just has to make a noise or who will be the first to turn on their light,

 

Light = Life in a cave. I think this is the #1 reason why caches in caves should be discouraged. Many people go into caves with just a two-dollar flashlight and not even a spare set of batteries. Trained cavers have AT LEAST 3 GOOD sources of light, all with spare batteries or fuel enough to last the entire trip, PER PERSON. And a minimum party of 3 persons (preferably minimum of 4).

 

We all know very well the allure of a cache that's "just right there" and how hard it is to give up if it "only a little ways in the cave". Hey, I've got a flashlight, I'm going in!

 

As I have posted many times before, "a man has got to know his limitations" and one should always abort a caching mission if ANYTHING looks unsafe. But the average person is NOTORIOUSLY IGNORANT of the nature of and dangers of the cave environment, so I agree that cahces do not really belong in caves. However stealing them is still un-called-for.

 

In the main, a cave cache is no more inappropriate than an underwater cache, except that people in general will take more chances in a cave than they will in water over their heads.

 

Hey, what a cool idea. I'll put a cache in an underwater cave! (been there)

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Hey, what a cool idea. I'll put a cache in an underwater cave! (been there)

It'd be a while before I would try one of those. Caving Diving seems to be a match for high mortality. I had a friend once who had trouble getting life insurance because his listed both caving and diving. The insurance company intepreted that it he was cave diving, an denied a policy. He had to convice him that his caveing actiivites were not a part of his divining activiities before getting a policy.

 

Aonther thing I should mention is that some caves beome water caves pretty fast. In that particular cave, if we get a good Texas rain, it fills up about half-way in the most popular branch of the cave. However, if you dare to explore the lower branch and it starts to rain, you'll likely drown. It's a drainpipe directly into the Edwards Aquifer.

 

That one reason we're awfully careful about what we take down or could leave in the cave. It would take much for it as it is directly linked into the aquifer, and the pumping stations aren't too far way. Something like a gallon of gasoline could really taint the public driniking water in that region.

 

George

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That one reason we're awfully careful about what we take down or could leave in the cave. It would take much for it as it is directly linked into the aquifer, and the pumping stations aren't too far way. Something like a gallon of gasoline could really taint the public driniking water in that region.

 

George

Well, a gallon of gasoline wouldn't make much difference and I don't think you really need to leave the cave if you need to "go".

 

The argument that leaving a cache in a cave somehow ruins the environment is specious at best. Organized cavers often leave "caches" in the original sense of the word- caches of provisions for their own or others' expeditions or for people who might get stuck because of rising water.

 

Good that you point out yet another cave hazard that most non-cavers don't realize- flooding. A cave is a natural sewer. It is, by definition, an opening into the underground water table. A hard rain many miles away can cause a cave to flood with no warning at all.

 

Caves are NOT for the casual visitor.

 

BTW I had a similar experience trying to get life insurance. At the time, I caved, SCUBA dive (in black water, alone), climbed, rappelled, hang-glided (well I owned one- didn't ever get it up), and would jump out of a perfectly good airplane if I had the money. The agent was able to explain it to the company's satisfaction and they issued th policy and I had the priviledge of dumping several thousand dollars down a rat-hole over the next few years... but that's another story...

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Well, a gallon of gasoline wouldn't make much difference and I don't think you really need to leave the cave if you need to "go".

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that it doesn't take much gasoline to make a water supply unpleasent.

 

My grandpa once washed out some gasoline cans near our well. This was a modern well maybe 5 or 6 inches wide and fully enclosed. The well goes down about 100 feet to hit water.

 

I'm not sure exactly how much gasoline was involved, but it wasn't very much...less than a gallon or so. The gasoline eventually seeped into the well. It took over a year for the gasoline smell to go away from the water. If you let a glass of water stand for a few minutes, you'd get that rainbow film on the surface. Blech....showering in that stuff was awful. That little gasoline really went a suprisingly long way.

 

As far as needing to "go" in a cave is concerned, that is a real no-no in this area. I'm not exactly sure how it happens, but the water in this area gets easily contaminated with human fecal matter more than I feel comfortable with. Six or so years ago, the water in my subdivision was contaminated so badly, it made national news. Let me tell you, that's a really bad time to try to sell a house!

 

George

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As a caver myself, I do beleive in cave conservation and I practice it. BUT !! If you go to any show cave you are going to see so many things that is not natural. Stairs, Lights, Handrails, Steps, Pictures, Messages. And thousands of people going through them all year around. I dont think a cache will bring that many people. I dont think hiding a small pill bottle in a cave under rocks is going to destroy cave life, destroy the beauty " if hidden well" or disturb the cave. I am new to geocaching but I am a LONG time caver!

Cave on and Cache on they both can go together and be fun and safe if you follow giudelines, practice conservation, use three light sources. And mostly NEVER CAVE ALONE ! BE CAREFUL. You MUST ALWAYS RESPECT A CAVE... A CAVE CAN TAKE A LIFE !

 

caverchick

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Six or so years ago, the water in my subdivision was contaminated so badly, it made national news. Let me tell you, that's a really bad time to try to sell a house!

 

George

Well, it didn't get that way from one guy going pee. And 1 gallon of gas could surely contaminate a personal well, but lost amongst 1 million gallons of water, it is not much of a concern.

 

You might be surprised to check out how many ppm of various contaminants are allowed by law. (Total purity is impossible)

 

Paul Harvey once did a really cool "expose'" on a country where they eat rat droppings, insect larvae, bugs of all sorts, etc in every meal--- that country is US! The FDA publishes the limits for all these contaminants in our agricultural products that we eat everyday.

 

My point is simply that a single, small incident does not constitute an environmental crisis. Nor does a cache in a cave represent a threat to the "fragile environment". If the cave environment in question is that fragile, then the "organized cavers" need to STAY OUT because they do just as much damage (possibly more) as geocachers.

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My point is simply that a single, small incident does not constitute an environmental crisis. Nor does a cache in a cave represent a threat to the "fragile environment". If the cave environment in question is that fragile, then the "organized cavers" need to STAY OUT because they do just as much damage (possibly more) as geocachers.

And that's exactly what happens. Cavers aren't supposed to be in fragile caves, either. If they do, it's supposed to be for very good reasons, like taking readings for an environmental study.

 

Many caves are off-limits to any sort of recreational activity, including caving. Just like some above-ground nature preserves.

 

As for a "single, small incident" causing a crisis, it does happen. Several contaminations have been traced back to single source, and it was just one person. Fortunately, those incidents aren't too common, but they aren't unheard of, either.

 

Sometimes one of those incidents just push an existing contamination level over a prescribed limit, where health officials are obligated to shut down access. Fortunately, it's usually temporary...only a few days, but it's enough to screw up your weekend plans.

 

George

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And that's exactly what happens. Cavers aren't supposed to be in fragile caves, either. If they do, it's supposed to be for very good reasons, like taking readings for an environmental study.
So, if that's the case, then the only caves that cavers frequent are the ones that are not overly sensitive. I see Church Camp Dave's point, if it can handle visits from cavers, it can handle visits from cachers.
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So, if that's the case, then the only caves that cavers frequent are the ones that are not overly sensitive. I see Church Camp Dave's point, if it can handle visits from cavers, it can handle visits from cachers.

Yes, the key word there being "frequent".

 

It all depends on the "carrying capacity" of any particular environment. In the case of caves, that is usually fairly low, at least compared to your typical hiking trail.

 

What it all boils down to is getting the appropriate permission. If the manager is cool with it, then there really isn't an issue at all.

 

George

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Nah!

Don't close it yet.

I disagree that "most caves have little "carrying capacity""

 

Most of the caves I've been in carry a lot of beer cans and dirty diapers and the like and the evironments (typically farther back in the cave) are still pretty much as they have been for many years. (which is not to say good)

 

But my simple point is that a few hundred visits by careful cavers can't make them much worse.

 

One of the biggest problems with caving is that part of the thrill of caving is imagining that you are the "first" to see something. The smoke marks, shoe prints, and general trash (much of which came from non-cavers) make such an imagination pretty far-fetched.

 

Unfortunately, there are few wild caves left that are pristine. Many have fragile formations, some of which still remain, but most caves frequented by recreational cavers are just labyrinths where you "explore" (someone in the party has probably benn there before) the "unknown" (NSS probably has a map somewhere that they WON'T show you) realizing in the back of your mind that literally thousands have been there before you, and hoping someone hasn't stolen ALL the speleothems.

 

Oh yeah, speleothems were stolen and vandalized long before anyone placed a geocache in a cave.

 

If you want to talk about DAMAGE, let's talk about the DELIBERATE damage and theft, because that is where the most damage has been done.

 

This is the reason cavers are reluctant to reveal the locations of their favorite caves- and much of the reason they dislike geocaches, I would surmise.

 

I agree that those few "pristine" caves are very easily spoiled, but there truly aren't many of them left.

 

This should not be construed as saying that the caves are better off once they are desecrated or that some damage justifies further damage, just that the caves have been around for a long time and they will be around long after we're gone and nature has a way of fixing things.

 

I am considering starting a new thread soon with a difinitive "treatise" on the REAL extent of environmental damage caused by geocaching.

 

As preliminary reading, pick up a copy of "The Lifted Lorax" (title may not be exact) by Dr. Seuss. I intend to start there.

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It depends on where you live. In my two-county area, there are something like 1000 known caves. To be labeled a "cave" it has to have at least 15 meters (? maybe it's feet) of "humanly-passable passage".

 

Frankly, I think they must be pretty small humans, because I'm sure not going to fit into many that I've seen.

 

Most of them are largely unexplored and presumed pristine. It's the big "easy" caves that seem to take the most abuse. There are far fewer of those.

 

However, a couple of years ago a new cave was discovered while trenching for utilities in a neighboring subdivision. It was so pristine that not even insects had made their way in. Of course, the new hole changed all that. You can see a picture of the main room (about the size of a small house) at http://www.texcc.org.

 

The interesting thing is that since this cave had never been colonized by any life, that actually gives us a little more freedom to make "improvements". The hope is that it can be made into an educational center.

 

George

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However, a couple of years ago a new cave was discovered while trenching for utilities in a neighboring subdivision. It was so pristine that not even insects had made their way in. Of course, the new hole changed all that. You can see a picture of the main room (about the size of a small house) at http://www.texcc.org.

Bet the insects are swarming in now- or at least they will be after a few critters fall in the hole and die there.

 

It's easy to keep a cave pristine when there isn't a hole to crawl thru. Although I would still not be surprised to find trash in it since the water carries it in.

 

Raises a good question about cave life. Do cave crickets and blind crayfish require an opening to the surface? I suspect they do.

 

 

I always thought that would be a good way to "discover" a cave.

 

Hey, if you see a hole in the ground, blast that sucker until it's big enough to crawl into! Reckon we could discover a lot of pristine caves.

 

Now put a cache in it (or simply post the location on the internet) and let's see how long it stays that way.

 

Picture looks very similar to rooms I've been in in a few of my favorites. Hope they don't tear it up too bad with the lights and walkways.

 

(As you might see, I have mixed feelings on this topic- its really hard to take a firm stand here.)

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Bet the insects are swarming in now- or at least they will be after a few critters fall in the hole and die there.

Big critters aren't an issue. It's the smaller things like scorpions that are squeezing through.

 

The subdivision developer was very gracious and used the trench to pour a set of concrete stairs down into the cave, then re-covered the trench, leaving something of a lockable hatch at the top so nothing can fall it. It's just like walking down into someone's basement or cellar. Very easy access.

 

The trench just happened to be dug at the edge of the main room, so little to no damage was done to the cave itself. You couldn't have planned the opening location any better than that. It was just pure, dumb, luck.

 

It's kind of strange, though. Houses have been built all around it. From the surface it just looks like a a typical vacant lot (you can't knowingly build over a cave around here) with a funny looking square hatch right beside the sidewalk. I guess most people would just think it's something like a cable vault for the telephone company.

 

George

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So, who gets the keys?

In this case, they're held by the cave manager. The developer might have a key, too, but I'm not sure why.

 

Anyway, the cave managers job is to make sure things are going well in the cave......temp, humidity, counting critters (if they're are any) and mess with any regulations that apply.

 

So I imagine the cave is still owned by the developer, but may eventually be transferred to the local Metropolitian Utilities District, and they would continue on with the existing cave managers. If you had the bucks....mayby $20K or $30K, you might be able to have your own private cave.

 

George

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