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Caches destroyed by organized cavers


Vader

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I think cavers don't understand where I am coming from. Back when this whole thing started it was because of a cache I placed in a cave that was already heavily vandalized and very popular with locals. This cave was perfect for a cache and if it had been left alone by the grotto, others would not have been placed in sensative caves. I guess THIS is a personal issue. I wish some cavers could just realize when to leave well enough alone and compromise a little bit. I am in contact with Hazel Barton from the N.S.S. and currently working on a compromise that will hopefully make both sides happy, at least here in Colorado.

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quote:
Originally posted by Vader:

This cave was perfect for a cache and if it had been left alone by the grotto, others would not have been placed in sensative caves.


 

Whoa! Back this truck up!

 

Because the grotto didn't leave your first cache alone, that caused other caches to be placed in sensitive areas?!?!?

 

George

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quote:
Originally posted by Vader:

This cave was perfect for a cache and if it had been left alone by the grotto, others would not have been placed in sensative caves. I guess THIS is a personal issue. I wish some cavers could just realize when to leave well enough alone and compromise a little bit.


 

OMG! If you provoke things, why are you surprised at the outcome? You've intentionally made it a personal issue!

 

Now you've got to lay in the bed you've made. Unfortunately, you've caused problems for other geocachers in that region too, via a less tolerant attitude regarding geocaches in that grotto (regional group of cavers).

 

You then have the gall to ask for them to compromise when they previously contacted you asking for such? (As stated in the log on your cache, citing dangers and environmental concerns among others.)

 

I'm sorry, but you just lost the last grain of potential respect...

 

quote:
I think cavers don't understand where I am coming from.

 

I can't fathom such...

 

I'm appalled,

 

Randy

 

PS: For future reference, antagonizing people isn't a good way to convince them of anything--all it does is damage.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bobthearch:

Caves are a very sensitive ecological zone and should be off-limits to caching, IMO. Serious cavers even wear special shoes, or no shoes, to avoid leaving even footprints.


Hmm...if they have shoes on they would leave shoe prints, if they have no shoes on they would leave footprints, if they leave no prints they would not be there in the first place.

Just an observation, not to be taken too seriously.

I do agree with your post, virtual or near but not in.

Remember, wherever you go- there you are!

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The only part that bugs me about this whole thing is access. If the cave is truly a sensitive site, then nobody should be in there, barefoot, experienced, lugging scientific equipment, whatever. If the cave is on public land, it should either be open to everyone, or no one. I find the assumption that someone who is not a "caver" would be any more damaging insulting. Cavers weren't born knowing how to behave in a cave, they learned how. With the proper instruction, any able bodied person could navigate underground with the same minimal degree of impact. If hundreds of people travelling through a cave will damage it, so will ten people navigating it hundreds of times. Either close the caves or open them, but hoarding them is inexcusable.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

The only part that bugs me about this whole thing is access. If the cave is truly a sensitive site, then nobody should be in there, barefoot, experienced, lugging scientific equipment, whatever.


 

Why? What sort of logic supports this?

 

quote:
If the cave is on public land, it should either be open to everyone, or no one.

 

Again, why? There are many wildlife areas where access is restricted or limited. Sometimes you have to apply and participate in a lottery to get access. "Public land" does not mean that any individual can do whatever they want to. It doesn't guarantee access.

 

quote:
I find the assumption that someone who is not a "caver" would be any more damaging insulting. Cavers weren't born knowing how to behave in a cave, they learned how. With the proper instruction, any able bodied person could navigate underground with the same minimal degree of impact.

 

Well, if they had this training and knowledge, then they would be a "caver", wouldn't they? Of course, even if you had this training, it doesn't mean you'll get access to whatever cave you want...cavers can't go into every cave they want to.

 

quote:
If hundreds of people travelling through a cave will damage it, so will ten people navigating it hundreds of times.

 

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. There are many wildlife areas where traffic is regulated. If they decided the traffic is too heavy, it gets shut down.

 

quote:
Either close the caves or open them, but hoarding them is inexcusable.

 

You seem to be under the misconception that cavers control access to caves. They don't. Cavers don't have a special pass that lets them go anywhere they want to. The control is in the hands of those managing the land.

 

George

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I was going to write a long point by point rebuttal, but it would all boil down to this anyway. Cavers need to learn to share. They absoulutly have to. If public areas have limited access, it should not be limited to members of a certain "club". I understand that public land doesn't gaurantee access. The problem as I see it is cavers being privvy to access to public caves, prefferentially over the average joe. The instant such a distinction is made, you create a country club full of muddy elitists.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

I was going to write a long point by point rebuttal, but it would all boil down to this anyway.


 

You can't write a rebuttal because you don't have one.

 

quote:
Cavers need to learn to share.

 

Share what? Equipment? Knowledge? Cavers do that all the time. But, frankly, no one is obliged to share anything with you. You sound like a spoiled brat.

 

quote:
They absoulutly have to.

 

Oh, come on. Throw a little temper tantrum and bang your fists. No one has to do anything.

 

quote:
If public areas have limited access, it should not be limited to members of a certain "club".

 

It isn't.

 

quote:
I understand that public land doesn't gaurantee access.

 

Finally.

 

quote:
The problem as I see it is cavers being privvy to access to public caves, prefferentially over the average joe.

 

What special treatment are you talking about? Do you think there is some special handshake or something going on? Do cavers get free drinks?

 

quote:
The instant such a distinction is made, you create a country club full of muddy elitists.

 

No. That's only in your fantasy world.

 

The only thing stopping you from caving is yourself.

 

George

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quote:
I've already been caving. I'm talking about putting caches in them.

 

It sounds like your "access" claim is moot, as you're already getting in caves. The next step would be getting permission to place the cache with the managers...if you can convince them that it is a good idea.

 

I'm still wondering what cavers are obligated to share with you.

 

George

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Civility and respect of private property? Who made them the cave police? If someone leaves a cache in the entrance to a cave that is already vandalized, has no rare endangered habitat, and all of the formations have been snapped off by poachers, or spray painted, it ought to be allowed to stay. I'm not saying that someone should place caches every .1 mile throughout letugilla, just that a cache in a well travelled cave need not be gleefully burned. If cavers can leave fixed gear for their sport,(ropes, dive belts, batteries, water, expansion bolts) cachers ought to be able to leave fixed gear of their own. (tupperware) Share the resources.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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Samwell cave in Shasta-Trinity CA is the perfect example. In that cave there is spray paint covering fragile tube like stalactites on the ceiling of one of the rooms nearest to the entrance. There is a pipe braced across an 80 foot pit that contains an (already completely excavated) archeological site at the bottom. And a 55 gallon drum set in concrete at the entrance, and locked with a gate. You can get a key at the ranger station, and must fill out a form stating how long you expect to be inside, for safety. The lock is constantly being cut off by people. When I visited that one, (over ten years ago) the key was useless, because when we got there, there was no lock. This creates an unsafe condition which leaves the lock hasp open for someone to bring their own lock and trap you in! The whole point is that a cache in the first front room, on the outside of the gate would not be damaging. And inside the cave the damage is done. Conservation is important, and would be much more effective if it focused on areas that haven't already been ruined. I'm sure the pollutants released by the burning of those caches released greenhouse gasses that exceeded any environmental impact their placement may have had.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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Nincehelser, two posts up you did resort to name-calling, and belittling BloenCustoms for holding a particular opinion, which happens to be opposite of yours. Other than that, both of you were doing an excellent job of describing your respective positions. I would ask that you continue to debate the merits in a respectful manner, as the rest of us can learn from what you have to say. When you resort to name-calling, some readers tune out. Take issue with the opinion, not the person.

 

Thanks very much!

 

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Keystone Approver, Geocaching.com Admin

"Eschewing Entropy and Ensuring Enthalpy in the Groundspeak Forums"

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Bloencustoms,

If you were to get permission to place your cache in Samwell cave from the land manager, or key holder in this case, there would be no problem. Proper permission was obtained for the placing of your cache.

 

In Vader and caverone's case with these caches, and the other sensitive high alpine cave caches they have, it is just the opposite. They have been told by the USFS not to place any more caches. Yet by Vaders own admission, Powerline cave cache and Lime Creeks Revenge were still placed in vengance. The name says it all, Lime Creek's revenge.

 

The fact to this matter is that they are using your site and your game for their own vengance agianst the Denver cavers. They belonged to the Colorado Grotto for five years from 86-91. They obviously have some past issues with cavers or they would be following your own rules and would not be placing caches when they have been told by the forest service not to place them. If they were to do multi's (as previously suggested to them) there would be no problem. If they would have obtained written permission, there would be no problem. The problem arises when exact cooridinates are posted on the internet to sensitive caves.

 

I agree that both sides are at fault here. The cavers that burned the caches, and the cachers that are placing their caches, in sensitive, high alpine caves. Both sides need to be spanked by the authorities.......... Make that by the "proper" authorities and not by each other. This battle between the two groups needs to stop. It is not doing the caves or your game any good. It is having a very negative impact on both.

 

Vaders caches at Fault cave and Palmer Lake Ice cave are fine. Cavers do not have a problem with those high traffic caves. Just the high alpine sensitive ones on USFS land.

 

Member: Colorado MADRATS

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Dan:

 

I'm not sure where you get your information, but I was not a member of the Colorado Grotto for 5 years. It was one year. As for using this site to play a private game, that is not the case. I wanted the Fault cave cache left alone. As per an earlier e-mail ( and I think you sent it ) " The grotto members who took the cache have not decided what they are going to do with it." That sounds like theft to me. I can look this e-mail up and send it to you personally if you would like. That cache has been there for 2 1/2 years and it's been played out.

 

The cache up at Fault caves night be fine with you, but it's not with some, That's the problem. All these cavers have different issues and that cache was not fine with other cavers, and they would not leave it alone. I may have placed a couple of caches to distract the Colorado caving community, so they would leave my insignificant cave caches alone. I did not resort to theft and destruction of private property like certain members of a well respected Colorado organization. Unfortunately the actions of a few reflect on the whole. These discussion boards are a great idea but in the case of Geocachers and cavers, They are just inflaming the situation. As per an argement just offered to the NSS. I am willing to pull all the caches in White River National Forest if cavers would just leave the front range cave caches alone. Would this resolve the situation?

 

[This message was edited by Vader on October 17, 2003 at 05:54 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

Civility and respect of private property? Who made them the cave police?


 

Private property? I thought we were talking about access on public lands?

 

quote:
If someone leaves a cache in the entrance to a cave that is already vandalized, has no rare endangered habitat, and all of the formations have been snapped off by poachers, or spray painted, it ought to be allowed to stay.

 

Why? Ever hear of restoration work? I've cleaned up caves myself, removed spray paint. If I found a piece of tuperware that looked like it didn't belong durning the cleanup, it would be removed, too.

 

quote:
I'm not saying that someone should place caches every .1 mile throughout letugilla, just that a cache in a well travelled cave need not be gleefully burned. If cavers can leave fixed gear for their sport,(ropes, dive belts, batteries, water, _expansion bolts_) cachers ought to be able to leave fixed gear of their own. (tupperware) Share the resources.

 

Cavers aren't in a habit of leaving their gear and trash in caves.

 

George

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Vader,

I got yours and caverones grotto info off of the old Cg membership lists. I may have it backwards and I am sorry if I have posted the wrong info. It doesn't really make any difference the length of time, but the fact is that you and caverone, are using this game to get back at the Colorado Grotto.

 

Sorry, but I am not the Dan S on any of your cache pages. He use to be the chair of that grotto. This whole thing is confusing because it has been going on for so long. If you can send that E-mail on to me that would be great. I believe you will find it is from the other Dan S, not me.

 

quote:
I wanted the Fault cave cache left alone.

I believe that the kids that visit your fault cave are the ones that will not leave your cache alone at present. That is why you have a virtual cache still posted for that cave. Isn't it? Isn't this the link to your last regular cache you had placed there? fault cave

Here is a cut and paste off of that page that shows why it was archived.

 

----------------------------------------------

June 5, 2002 by Jeremy (Admin) (iryshe) (256 found)

Received this email. Will contact the cache owner with more details:

the container at the fault caves in Golden Colorado has been destroyed.This area is frequented by young adults that go up there to drink and party. your program is not appreciated by them. They scattered your container and destroyed its contents. I think it's a shame.

[view this log on a separate page]

 

May 27, 2002 by Indiana Cojones (Indiana Cojones) (17 found)

Found the cave OK.. a little worry about getting into it at first, but we managed. No one else was around, but this cave is certainly a mess. Unfortunately, I forgot my trash bag which I normally bring with me, so we were unable to clean up. Couldn't find the caches, but only looked a little, as exploring the cave took up most of our time. Sadly, my friend (who was taking unnecessary risks) fell into The Abyss at the opening as we were leaving. His face broke the fall. icon_frown.gif Possibly a broken cheekbone, contusions, a nasty black eye... could have been much worse. And yes, before anyone asks, he was wearing a helmet. He'll live, and hopefully he'll be a little more careful.

I was hesistant to post this for fear that they'd try and close the cave or something. Life carries risks, and sometimes things happen. You can't protect everyone, nor should we try. But I did want to let people know that this cave is not for the foolhardy, as he could have EASILY lost his life. And with the number of beer cans I saw scattered around, it's a miracle no one has.

----------------------------------------

 

It also reports an accident that will be listed in the next issue of the ACA. This is only one of three accidents that have happened at the caches you have in that area Here is a link to tower cave that proves that point.

Tower Cave

 

quote:
Unfortunately the actions of a few reflect on the whole.

Very true. I have stated this fact before. And my worst fears came true with the posting of Steve's new web site. Not Cool.

 

quote:
These discussion boards are a great idea but in the case of Geocachers and cavers, They are just inflaming the situation.

I'll agree to some extent. Especially when it becomes personal and strays from the facts. Looks like we are both guilty of that. Just remember that you are the one that has started these threads. Lets not keep repeating history over and over. But that is up to you.

 

quote:
I did not resort to theft and destruction of private property like certain members of a well respected Colorado organization.

True. I am not arguing that point. They need to pay you for your property. If this will help ease this situation, I bet the grotto will pay you for the caches that were destroyed. Will you accept that and end this issue?

 

quote:
As per an argement just offered to the NSS. I am willing to pull all the caches in White River National Forest if cavers would just leave the front range cave caches alone. Would this resolve the situation?

Only time will tell, but it would be a dam good start. As long as you remove the coordinates from your site, not just archive them. You can leave the rest of the page, just remove the coordinates. You know I will do my best to make my statements come true. Just as I told you I would take you guys caving, and I have and will again when the dust finally settles. Of coarse your future actions (and caverones) will determine the final out come here. This public vengance has to stop. Let's take it back to the private forum where it belongs. What do you say?

Dan Sullivan

 

Member: Colorado MADRATS

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

Cavers need to learn to share.


 

We do. We have been for decades. It's part of the goal of the NSS! I'm taking interested local geocachers caving next Sunday...

 

Cavers share experience, equipment, and knowledge. The goal isn't to prevent enjoyment of caves, but to encourage it, hoping to foster appreciation. Sheltering caves from those who seek to destroy them is obviously a part of it!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

 

PS: For those interested: NSS Conservation Policy

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The persons who trashed Vader and Caver One's caches owe them an apology and restitution to right their wrong. I don't like the idea of caches in caves or publishing cave entrance coordinates on the internet but cavers are just going to have to go through proper channels and get the relevant authorites involved to remove or authorize the removal of these caches.

 

The cavers can huff and puff and throw their tantrums and scream bloody murder about safety and conservation issues until they are blue in the face and we are all sick and tired of hearing about it but that isn't going to resolve anything. Please stop!

 

If there is a regulation from a legitimate authoity that a geocache may not be hidden in this or that cave then they should try contacting the one of the geocaching.com admins with this information. The listing will probably be removed. THIS is the right course of action for them to pursue. The stealing and burning geocaches is the wrong course of action.

 

I have just about zero respect for the organized cavers in Colorado that have allowed this to happen. They are at least 50% responsible for this feud and it is their arrogance and elitism and secrecy and taking the law into their own hands that created this situation. They have failed to be good stewards of the caves. I don't think that telling Vader and CaverOne not to publish coordinates is the answer. Even if there is a law that says coordinates to sensitive caves cannot be published on the internet, I seriously doubt that it has ever been prosecuted and I don't think that it could hold up in court. It's a first amendment thing. The cavers need to convince these guys or the authorities that geocaches in caves is not a good idea. It's the only thing they can do at this point. Asking is probably going to work better than telling. We see now what can happen when certain 'elitist' cavers believe otherwise.

 

Johnny

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quote:
I don't like the idea of caches in caves or publishing cave entrance coordinates on the internet but cavers are just going to have to go through proper channels and get the relevant authorites involved to remove or authorize the removal of these caches.

 

No. If the caches were placed without authorization, they have no business being there. Anyone can remove them. One man's treasure is another's trash. We all know that many caches are trash, you can't argue that.

 

quote:

The cavers can huff and puff and throw their tantrums and scream bloody murder about safety and conservation issues until they are blue in the face and we are all sick and tired of hearing about it but that isn't going to resolve anything. Please stop!


 

That hasn't been discussed in this thread. All the huffing and puffing is coming from a few individuals who don't like caving groups.

 

quote:

If there is a regulation from a legitimate authoity that a geocache may not be hidden in this or that cave then they should try contacting the one of the geocaching.com admins with this information.


 

No. The wrong has already been done. The answer is for geocachers to get the proper permissions in the first place, as per the rules of the geocaching game. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

quote:
The listing will probably be removed. THIS is the right course of action for them to pursue. The stealing and burning geocaches is the wrong course of action.

 

This particular situation is a special case. There is a long history behind it. It's a personal issue.

 

quote:

I have just about zero respect for the organized cavers in Colorado that have allowed this to happen.


 

Allowed it to happen? Hardly. Vader has admitted on this thread that he has placed caches in sensitive areas because he thinks he was wronged somehow. That's the person (and his cohort, caverone) who is at fault.

 

Gentleman may say there were wrongs done on both sides, but the fact of the matter is it is pretty one sided. The grotto isn't the one here thumbing their nose at Federal law.

 

quote:
They are at least 50% responsible for this feud and it is their arrogance and elitism and secrecy and taking the law into their own hands that created this situation.

 

See above. If vader followed the rules of the game, let a lone the law, then we wouldn't be here. The "elitists" are geocachers who think they can do whatever they want to.

 

Why do you throw around the terms "secrecy" and "elitism" here, anyway. Do you think there is some Black Special Ops Caver Team going out and stealing caches?

 

quote:
They have failed to be good stewards of the caves.

 

This is pure BS. You don't have any clue what you're talking about.

 

quote:
I don't think that telling Vader and CaverOne not to publish coordinates is the answer. Even if there is a law that says coordinates to sensitive caves cannot be published on the internet, I seriously doubt that it has ever been prosecuted and I don't think that it could hold up in court.

 

You're wrong. Are you willing to challenge Federal law as these folks are?

 

quote:
It's a first amendment thing.

 

No it isn't. Disclosing information that puts someone/something at risk is not protected speech.

 

quote:
The cavers need to convince these guys or the authorities that geocaches in caves is not a good idea.

 

The authorities agree with the cavers. Vader's caches were placed without any authorizaion.

 

quote:
It's the only thing they can do at this point. Asking is probably going to work better than telling. We see now what can happen when certain 'elitist' cavers believe otherwise.

 

This "elitism" thing is getting tiresome. You have no basis for throwing it around, other than parroting a few other blow-hard geocachers.

 

It's no wonder I'm hearing more and more of the term "geoTRASHING" in different circles (and I'm not talking about cavers here).

 

George

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One other thing I should add. On the NSS forums recently, some cavers found a geocache in a cave in Mexico.

 

They didn't trash it. They actually traded. They were concerned about it enough to check to see if was placed with proper authorization. It was.

 

Go look for yourself. There aren't a bunch of cavers jumping on it saying "Remove it!" "Trash it! "Burn it!".

 

This conflict is soley perpetuated by a few geocachers with personal issues.

 

Few cavers agree that caches in caves are a wise idea, but they aren't running around making life difficult for geocachers in general.

 

George

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Once again Nincehelser, you are attacking a person rather than debating his opinions. I thought that, after my prior posting and my e-mail to you, you would follow the forum conduct guidelines and refrain from phrases like "you haven't a clue what you're talking about" and "you have no basis" and "parrotting the blowhards" and so forth. This time, you've chosen a target whom I know personally to be an excellent representative of both the geocaching and the caving communities. Just within the past week, Quest Master has assisted me in promoting good relations with the caving community here in Pennsylvania regarding a geocache placement here (which they had no problem with, by the way). He DOES know what he's talking about. Respect the fact that his opinions and experiences are different from yours, and ratchet down the tone of your posts. Third and final warning.

 

|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|

Keystone Approver, Geocaching.com Admin

"Eschewing Entropy and Ensuring Enthalpy in the Groundspeak Forums"

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I ask you again...attacking who?

 

I'm stating facts. Anyone who says grottos are "bad stewards", isn't talking about facts, but casting ill-will. Is that somehow OK in your book?

 

"Parroting the bowhards"...you can't deny there are people here are are speaking without any basis in fact. I'm calling them on it.

 

I suggest you start condmening those who spread false information about cavers.

 

"You have no basis". That's exactly what I mean. They can't back up anything with facts.

 

George

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One easy solution to prevent being accused of insulting someone is to insult their posts, or their ideas, and not the person. That, per order of TPTB at geocaching.com, is acceptable.

 

For example, nincehelser, all you'd have to say is "your posts parrot the blowhards" or "your comments have no basis in fact" or even "your comments are a jackass."

 

While maybe that last one stretches the boundries of the definition of an attack, (and shatters the boundries of good grammar) I'm told as long as you're attacking the idea, its fair game.

 

Happy hunting!

 

Pan

 

Fact is that there is nothing out there you can't do,

Yeah, even Santa Claus believes in you...

Floyd of Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem, from "Can You Picture That?"

 

[Edited to insert my tongue more firmly into my cheek]

 

[This message was edited by Pantalaimon on October 17, 2003 at 01:36 PM.]

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I am not condemning anyone, including you. I'm just the referee. My guess is that there are good cavers and bad cavers, just as there are good geocachers and bad geocachers. People like BloenCustoms and Quest Master who have had bad experiences with cavers are entitled to their opinion. I'll let them respond.

 

|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|x*x-x|

Keystone Approver, Geocaching.com Admin

"Eschewing Entropy and Ensuring Enthalpy in the Groundspeak Forums"

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Here's a thought. Close this thread completely.

 

The title itself is an insult, as there was no caving organization that sanctioned the burning.

 

Heck, it probably should have been deleted to begin with. It was posted purely to stir up conflict, and was actually old news when it popped up here. Vader knew about this for several weeks before he decided to make an issue of it on this forum, as it was already discussed to death on the nss forums.

 

George

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nincehelser,

 

I take exception to being accused of not knowing the facts. I know a lot more about the history of this particular situation than you give me credit for. I am also a member of the NSS and I belong to a local cave conservation organization. They do good work but it is often undone by some cavers with an attitude. I speak of elitism because I know that it exists in the sometimes complicated politics of organized caving. I believe that this elitist attitude is the genesis of this particular dispute and I also believe that it has served to perpetuate it. I do not condone what Vader and CaverOne have done but that does not mean that I side with the cavers. The ceremonial burning of the caches was not only wrong but stupid too. If Vader and CaverOne didn't have a legitimate beef with organized caving before, they can certainly make a good case that they have been wronged now. It is a shame that one of them, at least, feels it necessary to retalliate but I am not surprised. The caving organizations in Colorado should not be surprised either.

 

I also think your argument that the cavers had a right to remove the caches and burn them because they were not authorized is bogus. I am not a lawyer but I would expect to get into some trouble if I torched somebody's car that was left unattended on public property. I don't think I would get away with saying that one man's treasure was my trash. The cavers have to go through the proper channels just like you and me. They don't own the caves. If you feel that this cache should not exist because it was not authorized in the first place then you should join me in suggesting that organized cavers should gather their evidence and present that case to geocaching.com to ask that the listing be removed. It's the sensible thing to do.

 

I have charged the organized cavers of Colorado with not being good stewards of the caves. I was referring to their actions or inactions in this particular case only. I probably should have said that they are not as good of stewards as they might have been. I was just trying to ruffle some feathers here. They really do need to work on their public relations.

 

Johnny

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quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:

nincehelser,

I take exception to being accused of not knowing the facts. I know a lot more about the history of this particular situation than you give me credit for. I am also a member of the NSS and I belong to a local cave conservation organization. They do good work but it is often undone by some cavers with an attitude.


 

Just like there are geocachers with an attitude. Let's not paint a whole group with the same brush, shall we?

 

quote:
I speak of elitism because I know that it exists in the sometimes complicated politics of organized caving.

 

"Elitism" also is rampant in geocaching, but you won't find me going around calling geocachers elitist.

 

quote:
I believe that this elitist attitude is the genesis of this particular dispute and I also believe that it has served to perpetuate it.

 

OK. In my opinion that is not correct thinking.

 

quote:
I do not condone what Vader and CaverOne have done but that does not mean that I side with the cavers. The ceremonial burning of the caches was not only wrong but stupid too.

 

I don't think anyone condones the burning...I don't know if was "ceremonial" or not. I don't think it was. I think that is a word thrown in to inflame passions.

 

quote:
If Vader and CaverOne didn't have a legitimate beef with organized caving before, they can certainly make a good case that they have been wronged now.

 

Organized caving didn't do anything here.

 

quote:
It is a shame that one of them, at least, feels it necessary to retalliate but I am not surprised. The caving organizations in Colorado should not be surprised either.

 

That's the problem with some individuals. If they can't get along with the group, they strike out to try to get even. No caving group as been forcing this to escalate. No caving groups have forced anyone to challenge Federal laws.

 

quote:
I also think your argument that the cavers had a right to remove the caches and burn them because they were not authorized is bogus.

 

Maybe it's not right, but it shouldn't have been there in the first place. If something's not where it should be, it's likely to get removed. If someone was storing junk in a public cave, you can bet someone will likely take it out.

 

quote:
I am not a lawyer but I would expect to get into some trouble if I torched somebody's car that was left unattended on public property.

 

We're talking something like tupperware here....total value under one dollar at a garage sale, I'd bet. Cars left unattended on public property get towed away. If someone parks a car in front of my house (on the street) and it sits there too long, *I* can have it towed away. Burning it would be out of the question, of course, but we're talking something worth thousands of dollars, vs one that could well be under a buck. The law does make some distinctions based on dollar value in determining the seriousness of a crime.

 

quote:
don't think I would get away with saying that one man's treasure was my trash.

 

Obviously. People can clearly see the value of a car...even a junker is often worth serveral hundred bucks. A piece of tupperware and trinkets doesn't even come close. To many folks it could be considered trash.

 

quote:
The cavers have to go through the proper channels just like you and me.

 

Yes. They should.

 

quote:
They don't own the caves.

 

No one said they did. Geocachers don't own the caves, either.

 

quote:
If you feel that this cache should not exist because it was not authorized in the first place then you should join me in suggesting that organized cavers should gather their evidence and present that case to geocaching.com to ask that the listing be removed. It's the sensible thing to do.

 

No. The sensible thing would be to get proper authorization in the first place. That's the way the game is supposed to be played. I'm talking about fixing the root of this problem, which was that proper authorization to place the cache wasn't obtained.

 

quote:
I have charged the organized cavers of Colorado with not being good stewards of the caves. I was referring to their actions or inactions in this particular case only.

 

Well, at least you're trying to clarify it, but the actions of the grotto haven't hurt the cave and were done in the interests of protecting it. That's good stewardship. However, none of this was the act of a caving organization. It was something that happened between individuals.

 

quote:

the I probably should have said that they are not as good of stewards as they might have been. I was just trying to ruffle some feathers here. They really do need to work on their public relations.


 

Part of the public relations should be stopping people from slandering the group. "Organized" caving had no part of this "ceremonial burning".

 

George

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I've read through the cavers fourm while eating lunch today. I know nothing about caving besides it sounds interesting. Not sure it's for me though. I once went to Ruby Falls. The cave was fascinating! The story behind it was more so. Anways, back on topic.

 

It seems they are made up of people just like ourselves. They have a great passion for their hobby and preserving the caves. Much like we do about our hobby and protecting Mother Nature. The only difference I see is that some of them want to hide from the public the location of caves...and maybe for good reason. We on the other hand try to draw people to certain points of nature to enjoy.

 

Bottom line is...I think we should try to work together and respect each other. I think it is wrong to condeem an entire group for the actions of a few. We take offense when Geocaching is attacked because a few cachers won't follow the rules. This might have already of been mentioned here...but I got tired of all the negative and skipped to the bottom.

 

El Diablo

 

Everything you do in life...will impact someone,for better or for worse.

http://www.geo-hikingstick.com

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I'm not sure what upsets the cavers more...A)the fact that there is a geocache in the cave, or ...:P the fact that the coordinates are on the internet.

 

If it's "A", then they obviously believe they own the cave and there is no room to share it with a small tupperware.

 

If it's "B", then they obviously haven't used google.com groups to search the alt.caving group for keyword "coords". I found this by accident when I read a post by Dave Ulmer who invented geocaching but now explores caves.

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

If it's "B", then they obviously haven't used google.com groups to search the alt.caving group for keyword "coords". I found this by accident when I read a post by Dave Ulmer who invented geocaching but now explores caves.


 

That's not suprising. There're a lot of things on the internet that shouldn't be and aren't legal. That doesn't make it right.

 

Part of the current issue involves a web site that is purposely posting coordinates which may be counter to Federal law. It's already known that this sort of information is on the internet.

 

George

 

[This message was edited by nincehelser on October 17, 2003 at 07:02 PM.]

Link to comment

quote:
nincehelser

 

Charter Member

posted October 17, 2003 01:47 PM

Here's a thought. Close this thread completely

 


 

Keystone Approver,

I agree with George here. Please close this thread. If both sides (Cavers and Cachers)want to start a new thread, Fine. Please restart this debate on a more positive note. The thread was started to drum up sympathy and support. The first posts that followed were very negative with threats of violence and sarcasym. The facts have been made clear on all sides. The caches need to be replaced by the cavers that burned them. Period!!! It won't happen over night, but IMHO it will happen. Even though all sides have made some good points, This thread is now starting to degress with negativism again. Points are starting to be argued by people over an event that none of us were even at. Not you, not I, not Vader, nor any geocachers in this discussion. You admit yourself that this topic is of personal interest to you. That's great! So lets discuss some solutions in a new positive thread. Maybe you could lead off.

 

quote:
Quest Master

 

Disorganized

posted October 17, 2003 11:02 AM

 

 

If there is a regulation from a legitimate authoity that a geocache may not be hidden in this or that cave then they should try contacting the one of the geocaching.com admins with this information. The listing will probably be removed. THIS is the right course of action for them to pursue.


 

Been there, done that, in this case it is not working. They are using your site and your game for vengeful purposes. What do you propose that we do about that?

 

quote:
Quest Master

 

Disorganized

posted October 17, 2003 11:02 AM

Even if there is a law that says coordinates to sensitive caves cannot be published on the internet, I seriously doubt that it has ever been prosecuted and I don't think that it could hold up in court.


 

We will see about this one soon. Caverones new web site, IMO has broken federal law. The Federal Cave Resources Protection Act of 1988 to be exact. He is definitally testing the law here. Only time will tell, but it will be tested.

 

quote:
nincehelser

 

Charter Member

posted October 17, 2003 03:05 PM

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have charged the organized cavers of Colorado with not being good stewards of the caves. I was referring to their actions or inactions in this particular case only.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Well, at least you're trying to clarify it, but the actions of the grotto haven't hurt the cave and were done in the interests of protecting it. That's good stewardship. However, none of this was the act of a caving organization. It was something that happened between individuals.

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

the I probably should have said that they are not as good of stewards as they might have been. I was just trying to ruffle some feathers here. They really do need to work on their public relations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Part of the public relations should be stopping people from slandering the group. "Organized" caving had no part of this "ceremonial burning".


 

 

This is where both of you should stop arguing about who is right or wrong here. First this happened at the Rocky Mountain Regional. It was not a Colorado get together, but it included cavers from several states. It was a regional event hosted by the Colorado Grotto. It shouldn't have happened, but it did. It happened at one of many campfires. The whole group was not present around that one campfire. Neither were any of us. Another good reason to drop this thread. And please quit knocking all Colorado Cavers. There is more than one grotto in this state. We do not all act the same. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about if you have been in the NSS for any length of time.

 

quote:
El Diablo

 

Leader of the Evil Horde

posted October 17, 2003 04:35 PM

It seems they are made up of people just like ourselves. They have a great passion for their hobby and preserving the caves. Much like we do about our hobby and protecting Mother Nature. The only difference I see is that some of them want to hide from the public the location of caves...and maybe for good reason. We on the other hand try to draw people to certain points of nature to enjoy.


 

Well said. This would be a great topic to restart this discussion with. We are all human here and our two groups do have a lot in common. Safety, access, conservation issues, ect. This should all be discussed. But on a positive note, not in a negitive thread like this one.

 

So how about it Keystone Approver?

I did say please.

 

Dan

 

Member: Colorado MADRATS

 

[This message was edited by madratdan on October 17, 2003 at 07:32 PM.]

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

Don't you think that by cavers posting to these forums, they are only drawing more attention to themselves and their caves by posting on this site? I would have never given it a thought before, but now I have an interest in finding some of these sites. Something new, you know, like geocaving.


 

First off, it is not "their caves" (or "our caves" depending on your choice of perspective).

 

If these postings have sparked your interest in caving, great! There is no "elitist" or "secret" society out there that is trying to stop people from caving. If you have an interest, there are more than enough cavers out there who will help you learn more.

 

George

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I guess what I'm trying to say is that these forums should pretty much stick to geocaching discussions. Caving is a different sport and caving discussions should be kept to a caving site.

 

I realize that some geocachers are cavers too, and I don't mind discussions about how the two sports could intermix or complement each other. I can see the value of those posts.

 

But I'd rather not see new accounts being created by cavers who don't geocache, just to post their caving point of view on a geocaching site. They should at least try our sport before posting an opinion about it.

Link to comment

quote:
cachew nut

 

wait till next century

posted October 17, 2003 07:52 PM

 

But I'd rather not see new accounts being created by cavers who don't geocache, just to post their caving point of view on a geocaching site. They should at least try our sport before posting an opinion about it.

Posts: 1314 | From: Bad, Nationwide | Registered: February 20, 2002

 


 

How new is new to you?

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

"Elitism" also is rampant in geocaching, but you won't find me going around calling geocachers elitist.


 

quote:
Also posted by nincehelser a few posts back:

The "elitists" are geocachers who think they can do whatever they want to.


 

I hesitate to add anything else to this debate because I can barley recognize my own posts after they have been nincehelsered to death. My thoughts seem so scattered when they are broken into bits like that and criticized with such prejudice.

 

I think that it is wrong to characterize a geocache as trash and I don't understand why anybody who calls himself a geocacher would say that. It is certainly valuable to the person who hid it and also to the person who goes looking for it. It takes a certain amount of time, effort, and energy to hide or seek a cache even if it is just a logbook in a cheap tupperware container. Isn't that worth something? Where do you get off calling it trash? Somebody could just as easily say that a cave was just a hole in the ground and decorate the inside with graffiti to improve its appearance. One man's graffiti is another man's art! The cavers who burned these caches knew what they were doing. The eyewitness accounts I have read clearly indicate that this incident could be characterized as a cermonial burning of a cache. They didn't do it to clean out the cave. It was, as you have said, personal. It was a stupid and futile act. It only made matters worse. Did they even consider that somebody looking for these caches would probably do more harm to the cave searching in vain for a cache that was no longer there? Did they consider that an inexperienced person might venture further into the caves than necessary if they didn't find the cache where it was supposed to be? I don't think so. They were just trying to get even. The organized cavers in Colorado can always say that it wasn't them and that it was the act of a few rotten apples in their ranks but I choose not to let them off of the hook quite so easily. It is a fact that these cache burnings took place at an event organized by organized cavers in Colorado for other organized cavers. Cavers who belong to various Colorado caving organizations witnessed the burnings and did nothing to stop it. They say that they are sorry now and that it is not their offical policy to remove geocaches from caves. I will take them at their word but it sure seems to me that caving organizations in Colorado need to do a lot better job educating or disciplining their members. Shame on them!

 

Johnny

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I can't agree with most of what the cavers on this discussion board have posted, saftey concerns, impacts on caves and plenty of other things, but I can say that the more balanced of us can agree on some things.

 

My posting cave caches without permission from the forest service was wrong. Certain organized cavers burning my caches in a campfire, and others around the camp fire not stopping them was wrong.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I let this become a personal issue. I definitly have my reasons for this, but they are not important to this discussion.

 

I will remove all 4 cave caches south of the Eagle area. These are the cave caches in Colorado that seem to be causing the problem. Heck two of them are kinda toasty anyway and would need to be replaced. I will archive them tonight and then ( as per MADRATDAN ) check into removing them completly so the coordinates can no longer be viewed. Hope this is a step in the right direction.

 

Cavers and cachers are very passionate people, but we both need to learn when to bite our tounges. Many of the discussions here are now personal. I will stop posting to this thread ,as it's falling apart. I would like to see a good discussion on what we can do to fix the situation. There are certain individuals here that will never try to see the other side because they are to busy trying to prove they are right.

 

[This message was edited by Vader on October 17, 2003 at 08:43 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Vader on October 17, 2003 at 08:46 PM.]

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by madratdan:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master

If there is a regulation from a legitimate authoity that a geocache may not be hidden in this or that cave then they should try contacting the one of the geocaching.com admins with this information. The listing will probably be removed. THIS is the right course of action for them to pursue.


 

Been there, done that, in this case it is not working. They are using your site and your game for vengeful purposes. What do you propose that we do about that?


 

I'm here to help, Dan. I'd be willing to work with you to diffuse this situation. I don't agree with what Vader and CaverOne have been doing but the behavior of certain cavers has been equally, if not more, counter-productive. You are somebody that I can work with if you will allow that the caches were likewise destroyed for vengeful purposes.

 

I would like to know the details of the case you presented to geocaching.com and who you presented it to. It may not have gotten to the right person or they may have decided that your case was without merit. They are not (and should not) remove a listing just because some caver doesn't want a cache in a cave. I don't think that the unchallenged Cave Resorce Protection Act is going to cut it but if you can get something specific from a Federal Land manager that says that a geocache in a particular cave is against the rules then you can probably get the listing removed from the site. If you understand this game at all you will realize that this is much more important than removing the actual cache from the cave. You should expect that you are going to have to be patient and do this on a cache by cache basis. You can email me with the detail and I shall see if there is anything I can do to help.

 

Johnny

Link to comment

quote:
cachew nut

 

wait till next century

posted October 17, 2003 08:26 PM

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by madratdan:

 

How new is new to you?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Zero hides, zero finds

 


I'm sorry that bothers you. But all that proves is that I don't do my paperwork. I just replaced my old Magellan with a Garman Vista if that matters. Boy, talk about an upgrade! (Oop's now we are off topic)

 

Vader,

Sounds like a great step in the right direction. Lets talk, but not on this forum. I'm sure we can work out a peaceful agreement in the end. I'll get in touch with you when I get back in town next week.

Dan

 

Member: Colorado MADRATS

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:

I hesitate to add anything else to this debate because I can barley recognize my own posts after they have been nincehelsered to death. My thoughts seem so scattered when they are broken into bits like that and criticized with such prejudice.


 

Ain't that a nice positive note.

 

quote:
I think that it is wrong to characterize a geocache as trash and I don't understand why anybody who calls himself a geocacher would say that.

 

I didn't say *EVERY* geocache was trash. If you've been geocaching for any length of time, you should know that a good portion of caches are poorly maintained...cracked tupperware filled with water...moldy snacks...mildew. That's trash to most people.

 

quote:
It is certainly valuable to the person who hid it and also to the person who goes looking for it. It takes a certain amount of time, effort, and energy to hide or seek a cache even if it is just a logbook in a cheap tupperware container. Isn't that worth something?

 

In terms of money? No. Geocachers, appreciate the effort, of course, but that and a couple dollars might buy you a latte at Starbucks.

 

quote:
Where do you get off calling it trash?

 

Ooooh! Ooooh! Personal attack! Mr. Moderator! Mr. Moderator!

 

quote:
Somebody could just as easily say that a cave was just a hole in the ground and decorate the inside with graffiti to improve its appearance. One man's graffiti is another man's art!

 

Yes. This happens. Sometimes there's quite a debate if some graffiti should be removed. Petroglyphs are a graffiti, but they have obvious historical value. Sometimes a famous person has scrawled their name in a cave....should that be preserved? Opinions vary depending on who it is and how old it is.

 

I was once told that a rule of thumb is that any graffiti post-WWII is probably not worth preserving.

 

quote:
The cavers who burned these caches knew what they were doing. The eyewitness accounts I have read clearly indicate that this incident could be characterized as a cermonial burning of a cache.

 

A ceremony implies a formal act or ritual. When someone burns the American flag in protest of something, it isn't called a ceremony. Take a look at the definitions for ceremony on dictionary.com. The word doesn't fit here.

 

quote:
They didn't do it to clean out the cave. It was, as you have said, personal.

 

Exactly. This was not the sanctioned activity of any organization.

 

quote:
It was a stupid and futile act. It only made matters worse. Did they even consider that somebody looking for these caches would probably do more harm to the cave searching in vain for a cache that was no longer there? Did they consider that an inexperienced person might venture further into the caves than necessary if they didn't find the cache where it was supposed to be? I don't think so.

 

But did cache placer think about the damage that might occur because people are looking for a cache that is there? Did he not think an inexperienced person could get hurt in the cave? It works both ways.

 

quote:
They were just trying to get even. The organized cavers in Colorado can always say that it wasn't them and that it was the act of a few rotten apples in their ranks but I choose not to let them off of the hook quite so easily.

 

I don't know what their personal motivations were. The fact is their was no organization involved. It was the act of individuals, not of an organization.

 

quote:
It is a fact that these cache burnings took place at an event organized by organized cavers in Colorado for other organized cavers. Cavers who belong to various Colorado caving organizations witnessed the burnings and did nothing to stop it.

 

Perhaps, but whose obligation was it to stop the burning? It doesn't make the organization responsible. The individuals have to be responsible for their own actions.

 

quote:
They say that they are sorry now and that it is not their offical policy to remove geocaches from caves. I will take them at their word but it sure seems to me that caving organizations in Colorado need to do a lot better job educating or disciplining their members. Shame on them!

 

As this was a personal action, and not a sanctioned group activity, no particular organization can be held to blame. It's not their place to adminster any discipline.

 

George

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Johnny,

E-mail me. I will get back with you next week. I think we are both on the same page here. I agree with you on this even if I'm from Colorado, LOL. There is a reason why I was not at that party. I think you are starting to see why. Yes this will take time. No there is no magical fix. But working together is a good start for all of us.

Cave Softly,

Dan

 

Member: Colorado MADRATS

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Cashew Nut:

I'm not sure what upsets the cavers more...A)the fact that there is a geocache in the cave, or ...:P the fact that the coordinates are on the internet.


 

Neither. The later only applies to caves distinguished as ''significant'' on federal land. The former depends on the cave and impacts of visitation by less experienced. This can lead to a caves destruction as formations created over thousands of years are instantly broken and/or sold. This can lead to endangered bats abandoning the cave, inhibiting their survival. This can and does lead to death for the uninitiated. This can lead to an owner closing a cave to any visitation.

 

There are some caves that cavers don't go to. There are some caves closed certain times of the year. There are innumerable situations that the local caving groups (grottos) are aware of.

 

Lastly, frequently cavers place caches near caves (where there's no negative impact).

 

The situations in this circumstance seemed to relate more to personal politics and circumstances and are NOT representative of attitudes of most geocachers or cavers.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Vader:

My posting cave caches without permission from the forest service was wrong.

 

...{snipped for brevity}

 

I let this become a personal issue.

 

I will remove all 4 cave caches south of the Eagle area. These are the cave caches in Colorado that seem to be causing the problem. Heck two of them are kinda toasty anyway and would need to be replaced. I will archive them tonight and then ( as per MADRATDAN ) check into removing them completly so the coordinates can no longer be viewed. Hope this is a step in the right direction.


 

Wow Vader, now I'm impressed. Thank you for stepping up to the plate!

 

It sounds like you are making steps in the right direction. Assuming you do approach the forest service, you can certainly have the last laugh by circumventing the cavers in question.

 

Then, you'll have the law on your side, 'cause caches are personal property (assuming you've identified yourself as owner) and someone taking them is legally stealing. (Check the laws in CO, but I'm guessing they're similar.)

 

Thanks,

 

Randy

 

PS: I'll email this to you since you indicated you won't be posting here and perhaps won't read.

 

PPS: I agree this thread has gone way astray and would be happy to see it closed, the bad-mouthing going on serves no one and may ultimately harm caver's perspectives of geocachers.

Link to comment

Ok, here are some questions.

 

Does a geocacher passing through a cave cause more damage than a caver passing through a cave if they both have the same level of experience?

 

Does a geocache placed in a cave cause more damage than fixed gear left by cavers?

 

Are geocachers somehow different than cavers, and can their judgement be trusted where safety and environmental issues are concerned?

 

Are there any caves on public land that would not see significant negative impact from geocaching?

 

Are there caves on public land that might benefit from cache in trash out?

 

Is there a possibility of a compromise that will allow caches placed inside certain public (or private) caves with permission, approval, and guidance from experienced cavers and landowners?

 

These questions (and many more that I have overlooked) need to be examined before any progress can be made.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

Ok, here are some questions.

 

Does a geocacher passing through a cave cause more damage than a caver passing through a cave if they both have the same level of experience?


 

All other things being equal, no. It doesn't matter what label you stick on the person. A rose is a rose is a rose.

 

quote:

Does a geocache placed in a cave cause more damage than fixed gear left by cavers?


 

Possibly. Possibly not. The caves I visit don't have "fixed gear". If there is fixed gear, it is on the same conceptual level as a trail built in a nature preserve....a blazed trail for all to follow so the rest of the environment can be left undisturbed.

 

quote:
Are geocachers somehow different than cavers, and can their judgement be trusted where safety and environmental issues are concerned?

 

I would expect that cavers know more about caves, just as geocachers know more about geocaches. They are different areas of interest and specialty, but aren't mutually exclusive. You can be both a caver and a geocacher. I know several.

 

quote:
Are there any caves on public land that would not see significant negative impact from geocaching?

 

I'm not even going to try to answer this question as it seems twisted with the double negative.

 

quote:
Are there caves on public land that might benefit from cache in trash out?

 

Obviously, or cavers wouldn't be removing trash from them.

 

quote:

Is there a possibility of a compromise that will allow caches placed inside certain public (or private) caves with permission, approval, and guidance from experienced cavers and landowners?


 

Yes. This has already been done. I recently cited a cache in a cave in Mexico mentioned on the NSS forums. Proper authorization to place the cache was obtained. No cavers are fussing about it. If the entity responsible for the cave is satisfied with a cache placement and grants it authorization, what's the problem? There is none. It's just a matter of getting the appropriate approvals.

 

George

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

Yes, Vader's been trying to get even since then. Frankly, I've never understood the concept of placing a cache in an area that can't receive a satellite signal.

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness


 

It's an offset cache! Actually it's just a variation to the game. Since there is no rule that says you absolutly have to have a GPS there is also no rule that says you have to have a signal either.

Link to comment

Without quoting Bloencustoms entire message, here are my responses:

 

Yes, people passing through caves cause some amount of damage (regardless of which label you apply to them).

 

There isn't any fixed gear placed in caves near me. However, gates and the like involved committees, public debate, impact studies and the like, usually involving more than a year. Caches on the other hand can be dropped anywhere on whim without considering ramifications. So, yes a cache could cause more damage since it's impact isn't considered as carefully.

 

(A few years ago, when rock-climbers 'discovered' caves in terms of their hobby, there was a far bigger uproar between the climbing and caving communities 'cause climbers were putting bolts in caves!! Ouch!)

 

On the safety issue, as addressed in a prior thread last summer, for the uninitiated, caves offer some surprising hazards. Again, it doesn't matter what 'label' you apply to the individual, but inexperience with caves frequently results in problems and sometimes death.

 

The majority of caves would not see a negative impact from geocaching. Hence the reason the NSS endorses them where appropriate.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

Is there a possibility of a compromise that will allow caches placed inside certain public (or private) caves with permission, approval, and guidance from experienced cavers and landowners?

These questions (and many more that I have overlooked) need to be examined before any progress can be made.


 

That already exists. The NSS encourages offset caches and the like. (So direct coordinates aren't posted on the Web.) Local spelunkers would love to take you caving, and will help with equipment and guidance: find local caving groups here They'll also be able to direct you to other caves. They have all the same enthusiasm that you do, and want to share the experience. I'm taking folks caving this upcoming weekend.

 

FYI, these queries have been addressed before (I'm simply regurgitating the info from prior threads and an NSS News article from last spring). Perhaps it's time to pull together a geocaching oriented cave faq?

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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