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Caches destroyed by organized cavers


Vader

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Vader,

Apparently cavers think they are guardians of the earth's caves and we are nothing but a detructive force. They don't realize what a caring group we are, and how much we do to help keep our environs clean. There have been many lengthy discussions about it. I am sorry they had to become vandals in your area, that bites! I did a search on caves cavers by clicking on the find button above and came up with this three page thread for you, although there ARE others too, this one is most recent. It's just too bad they couldn't e-mail the hider if they had a problem and resorted to arson instead. Perhaps they need a little sunlight. I hear a lack of sunlight can make you depressed.

Planet

 

[This message was edited by Planet on October 10, 2003 at 05:50 AM.]

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I'm not the least bit surprised. As far as emailing the cache owner; well...that would require some effort wouldn't it (like logging on to your computer). Much easier to burn a cache than send an email. Pretty sad behavior icon_frown.gif

 

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

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I don’t see the problem in this area , we have a cachers buy the name of CAVE RAT with only 10 finds but 22 hides and half of those are in caves or around them, they are in state parks and on public and private lands and always hides with permission. He is a active caver and nature person and wants to show everyone the natural beauty of caves. He has no problems as far as I know from anyone about these.

 

I think it comes back to asking permission………….…… JOE

 

Another problem I see is that on these forums some posters want to beat them up and that is no way to have a working relationship with any other group

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I have a philisophy about hiding an ammo bax in a cave and being a 'caver'.

 

Since GPSr's don't usually work deep within a cave we as cachers can really go so far (with exceptions of course) so we tread in a small area lets say maybe a maximum os 50 feet. We go that far sign a log book and leave.

 

A Caver straps on all of his caving gear, go's indefinately into a cave brushing his/hers bodily oils all over the walls of a cave, destroys the cave with climbing ropes, deficates and urinates in corners, pounds hooks into the walls and so forth.

 

We ought to finding their extra ropes, packs and other caving items, taking them home and selling them on E-Bay and donating the money to an organuization that promotes the proper use tourism in delicate caves.

 

mystats.php?userid=micqn&vopt=&txtdata=Stats%20Rule!&bgcol=00cc33&fgcol=000000

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As a member of the organized caving community in Colorado and there are a few points I'd like to make on this thread.

 

1) Burning the caches was wrong. As somone who witnessed it, I wish I had spoken up.

 

2) Vader feels he was wronged by the organized caving community years ago. Much of what he says and does could be motivated by a desire to 'get even.'

 

3) Vader was contacted months ago by members of the organized caving community who expressed concern over his cave caches for both safety and conservation reasons.

 

4) Vader never asked for, nor received permission from the White River National Forest to place his cave caches. If he had, they would have informed him that several of the caves in question have been nominated as

significant with regards to the Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988. As such, distributing their locations on the internet is illegal.

 

5) Certain members of the organized caving community made an effort to make peace with Vader recently. They brought him to a couple gated caves on private property. Rather than recognizing that we are all individuals, Vader seems intent on demonizing organized caving as a whole.

 

I hope that at some point both sides of this story can make peace with each other.

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This thread has a very negative and adversarial tone which I think is unfortunate. IF it is true that some organized cavers plundered a cache then they are jerks. They are not necessarily representative of cavers in general and should not be characterized as such. The cavers I know would not condone this behavior. The persons who have suggested that organized cavers are more interested in exploiting caves than they are in preserving them are just plain wrong. We can only hope that cavers will not take offense when they read this thread and think that geocachers would even consider painting or chiseling graffiti into the walls of a cave or booby-trapping a geocache.

 

Do we have to beat this dead horse until it wakes up and bites us!?

 

Johnny

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This cave is a regular hangout for local high-schoolers, but the cache is well hidden. Certainly the kids do more damage than any geocachers. My girls were thrilled to be inside, but mommy was sincerely glad to get out.

icon_smile.gifb447c411-1398-4946-b8c8-4960a5c82825.jpg

 

"Thank you for calling Mom's Travel Service. Guilt Trips our specialty. Where would you like to go today?"

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and in stepps a real caver...

 

heh, dont stone me now ok. I am a caver, I belong to the NSS, an organization devoted to the study and preservation of caves. I have contacted several hiders reguarding caches in or around caves. I have had nothing but a good responce. The desire to keep the cache was there on BOTH our parts on in cave caches BUT I persuaded them to do a removal. Caches above ground near caves, COOL, maybe it will get people interested in the caves and maybe they will join our group.

 

Would I burn it, NO even if i didnt knaw a dern thing about caching, would others in my lacal group, possibly but more likley they would just remove it. Not cause they are bad people, but cause they are trying to remove trash and other abandoned/diguarded items from the caves.

 

Trash in caves is a very big problem in some caves and their response depending the problem in their area I may be able to understand.

 

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

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Wow, I'm shocked at the close-minded reactions from folks who only have part of the info.

 

The individuals who burned the containers (private property) should be arrested and prosecuted. They should also be prosecuted for destroying evidence of a federal crime were they, in fact, ''significant caves''.

 

Those placing caches illegally should be arrested and prosecuted. (But it sounds like the cavers eliminated that threat this time...)

 

Can the rest of us play in peace without badmouthing anyone?

 

To reiterate, the National Speleological Society's stance on caching is to embrace it.

 

The general geocaching community's response still seems to be to promote a negative attitude. Let's change that!

 

Thanks,

 

Randy

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Vader,

This posted thread has nothing to do with seeking info on cavers removing caches. You posted it SOLELY to stir up controversy and keep this feud going.

 

YOU KNOW that as soon as the burning of your cache was made known, every caver who has posted on the NSS discussion board has flatly condemned the removal and burning of your cache. YOU KNOW that many in the caving community have issues with the Colorado cavers in question for more than just their elistist attitudes toward geocachers. YOU KNOW that for weeks those of us regular to the NSS discussion board have been trying to establish a real dialogue with geocachers.

 

But you could care less about these facts. Instead, you came back over to this board and posted a thread that is designed only to move both sides back to square one and stir up the fued.

 

If any of you cachers would like to see how cavers responded to Vader's loss, you can read our 3 PAGES worth of posts at http://www.caves.org/cgi-bin/ubbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000424

 

Jeffery Gosnell

Lacon, IL

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quote:
Originally posted by caver_jeffery:

 

_YOU KNOW_ that as soon as the burning of your cache was made known, every caver who has posted on the NSS discussion board has flatly condemned the removal and burning of your cache.

Jeffery Gosnell

Lacon, IL


 

Jeff....I followed the nss thread the entire time. I saw very few posts that came close to disagreement let alone flat condemnation.

 

Most ( as anyone who reads the above linked thread will see), had a disticntly anticaching tone, although the Colorado rats are more militant than most.

 

When I went (ignorantly) to the NSS forums seeking education and guidance, I received much truly helpful advice. I also was threatened, called names and harrassed both on the forums, in my email. And I hadn't even placed a cave cache.

 

Forgive me if I sound a bit cynical regarding cavers and caching.

 

To answer Vaders questions....Yes, I have had poor experiences with cavers, especially on the National Speleological Society's forums. One of their most vocal anticachers is a member of the Colorado rats. I do want to stress that I have also had very positive interactions with a few NSS cavers. Takes all kinds I suppose.

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Jamie:

 

In response to your question of where did I get this information, I got it from an eye witness. The story was then backed up by another sorce, and has since been verified by others. It has been admitted on this discussion borad that the event did take place. That's not in question.

 

Jeffery:

I had thought Colorado cavers and Cachers were making progress. I'm not sure why you don't think they were. PowerLine cave cache was placed in response to the burning of two other caches in the same area. I understand before the $#@# hit the fan, that one member of a Colorado caving club was going to reccomend to his club that the caches be replaced by the club. The caches would not have been put back in the cave and PowerLine cave cache would have been pulled. Everybody would have been happy about the whole situation. Then the web site was launched and the progress that was being made was forgotten. The two things are seperate issues. I don't hate Colorado cavers in general, it was just some of them had the wrong answers to the problem and would not compromise. It is possible for cavers and cachers to get along, but there are bad apples in every sport. Now that the web site is up, the question of Cachers and Cavers ( in Colorado ) getting along is kinda mute.

 

Not trying to stir the pot, just drum up a little support.

 

It all depends on your point of view.

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I'm glad to see some cavers responding in this thread, but it ultimately leaves me confused.

 

It appears that only parts of both stories are presented, as there is someone to contradict each version from practically each person who responded.

 

All I know for certain, is that there is a great deal of misunderstanding with cachers/cavers and vice-versa. There is also a degree of close-mindedness as well...on both sides.

 

Speculation leaves me with the fact that those 'bad apples' have largely spoiled the opinions of cavers in the minds of many geocachers, because much of what we seem to see or hear about is an ultra-elitist attitude without a desire to educate the caching community in any way, shape, or form. There is part of me that buys into it, because I think it exists more than people will admit. However, I do believe that ultimately, and despite the elitists, that there is a true desire to work cohesively and toward a common goal of understanding. The likelihood is about as real as the Israelis and Palestinians reaching a concrete peace, but still...the thought is good.

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After reading the NSS thread in it's entirety, I have some questions. Has anyone researched the impact of a cache vs. that of a cave register, and other items such as fixed climbing gear? Has anyone compared the number of visits in the cave registers to the number of visits in the cache logbooks? (Excluding logs common to both books.) I think you'll find (just guessing here) that there are a lot more cavers visiting caves than geocachers visiting caves. If they are on public land, and everyone has the right to access, then which group is having a greater cumulative impact?

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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quote:
Originally posted by luke33:

As a member of the organized caving community in Colorado and there are a few points I'd like to make on this thread.

 

1) Burning the caches was wrong. As somone who witnessed it, I wish I had spoken up.

 

2) Vader feels he was wronged by the organized caving community years ago. Much of what he says and does could be motivated by a desire to 'get even.'

 

3) Vader was contacted months ago by members of the organized caving community who expressed concern over his cave caches for both safety and conservation reasons.

 

4) Vader never asked for, nor received permission from the White River National Forest to place his cave caches. If he had, they would have informed him that several of the caves in question have been nominated as

significant with regards to the Federal Cave Resource Protection Act of 1988. As such, distributing their locations on the internet is illegal.

 

5) Certain members of the organized caving community made an effort to make peace with Vader recently. They brought him to a couple gated caves on private property. Rather than recognizing that we are all individuals, Vader seems intent on demonizing organized caving as a whole.

 

I hope that at some point both sides of this story can make peace with each other.


 

I stopped reading after number 1. Did you roast your marshmallows too?

 

[This message was edited by ChiefPig on October 10, 2003 at 05:38 PM.]

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...returns a caver...registers vs caches...

 

quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

After reading the NSS thread in it's entirety, I have some questions. Has anyone researched the impact of a cache vs. that of a cave register, and other items such as fixed climbing gear? Has anyone compared the number of visits in the cave registers to the number of visits in the cache logbooks? (Excluding logs common to both books.) I think you'll find (just guessing here) that there are a lot more cavers visiting caves than geocachers visiting caves. If they are on public land, and everyone has the right to access, then which group is having a greater cumulative impact?

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]


 

registers vs caches

 

registers are managed under a special use permit with the fs blm etc respectivly. They are there to learn about the amount and frequency of visitors to a cave.

 

caches are placed THEOROTICLY with permission but i bet a cave cache isnt. there is no REAL oversight, sure we have our peers but it is not the same. a cache is part of a game.

 

my conclusion is that caches DO NOT belong in caves and registers while i understand their purpose i dont like them in a cave either but i seee the need for the necissary evil.

 

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

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I keep hearing how cavers in Colorado have tried to compromise and make peace, however I can't recal one instance where local grottos sugested that a cache be moved into a cave that was better suited for this activity, and actually came up with a suggestion. I on the other hand have pulled caches because of concerns from cavers and I'm going to pull two more off the Geocaching site because the were cooked in a fire. I do want to thank the Grotto members who took me into gated caves. This was a good experince, but it had nothing to do with Geocaching.

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quote:
registers are managed under a special use permit with the fs blm etc respectivly. They are there to learn about the amount and frequency of visitors to a cave.

Ok.

quote:
Has anyone compared the number of visits in the cave registers to the number of visits in the cache logbooks?
Seems like a good time to put that data to use.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloencustoms:

quote:
registers are managed under a special use permit with the fs blm etc respectivly. _They are there to learn about the amount and frequency of visitors to a cave._

Ok.

quote:
Has anyone compared the number of visits in the cave registers to the number of visits in the cache logbooks?
Seems like a good time to put that data to use.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]


 

ok ill give you that it may be an interesting study to compair the two... but the fact remains that cave caches are A) not overly safe, :P a touchy subject for both sides of the discussion and C) potentially harmfull to the cave environment

 

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

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There has been a total of 307 logs beetween 20 cave caches in the state of Colorado since the first cave cache was placed 2 1/2 years ago. Of these, 224 have been loged as finds on the web site. Most Geocachers travel alone, however some travel in groups as big as 6 or so. Some Geocachers will return to a cache for a second and third time just to visit the cave, but not sign the log on the web site. I have also noticed that when comparing the number of logs on the web site to the number of logs out of the log book in the cache, that the log book in the cache has about 25% more visits than the web site does. I guess some people don't take time to get online after their visit. The number of actual visits would be hard to calculate. It could be 2 or 3 times the original figure.

 

Of these 224 hits, 203 of these were in caves that most cavers would consider insignificant. Boulder caves, sandstone shelter caves and Fault caves that are allready popular with local visitors. Of the 21 left, 8 were to a popular limestone cave, who's location is puplished on almost all maps of the area, even some hiway maps. This cave sees so many visits by noncavers, I couldn't give an educated guess at the number, but on some days I have seen 30 40 other people up there. 6 more of these loged finds were in a cave that was made of clay and I don't see how a few visitors to the entrance and just inside the cave would make a difference to the health of the cave. This leaves 7 loged visits ( in 2 1/2 years )to caves that might be considered fragile. I don't have any statistics from cave registers, but I bet that number is much higher that just 7 visits in 2 1/2 years. The fragile caves are the ones we don't want to visit, because such a visit could leave behind a big impact on such a delicate environment. These are the caves though, that most cavers visit. Geocachers tend to keep mostly to insignificant caves. Most cavers I have met are very articulate and intelligent. the caving community is well organized and when an opportunity to unite and fight against something like this comes along, most of them thrive at it. Some fight so hard they don't realize they are standing in the way of a solution.

 

[This message was edited by Vader on October 11, 2003 at 08:11 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by Vader on October 11, 2003 at 08:16 AM.]

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As I've read the rest of this thread, I realized I had nothing to contribute because it's become a personal issue rather than a geocaching issue (or spelunking issue).

 

I suggest stepping back instead of feeding the flames (pun intended), let some time heal the wounds, then return in a spirit of goodwill and acceptance.

 

Just as there are some bad cachers who move them, trade down, don't log, etc., there are obviously some bad cavers too. Fortunately in both cases, they are in the vast minority.

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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quote:
Originally posted by SamLowrey:

Wait for cavers to retreat into cave. Seal cave entrance with high explosives. Savor revenge. I know this is a little extreme, so perhaps we can come to a middle ground and just beat them up a little. icon_biggrin.gif


 

Order a truckload of concrete dumped in the entrance. Not as satisfying as explosives, but it is a good compromise. Gives the cavers a few hours to dig out, or a darn good incentive to find another entrance.

 

(This post is meant to be humorous)

 

"Freedom is a two-way street."

GDAE, Dave

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I belive in personal fredom. I place the cache just inside the entrance, and include warnings on how difficult it might be to get to the cache. On one cave cache I even tell cachers it's not a good idea to go alone. People have to make choices, and if they chose to go alone, that's up to them. It's probably more dangerous to cross the street than to get to some of these caches.

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Vader,

 

I too would be very angry and upset if this had happened to one of my caches. I have lost some to unknown persons and it made me furious. I would be inclined to retalliate but that wouldn't be the right thing to do. You should seriously consider that hiding a cache in a cave in your part of the world is not a good idea. I'll cite three reasons.

 

1. Caves are not really the best of places to be playing our game since GPS does not work in caves.

 

2. Caves really are more dangerous and fragile than they appear which makes them a special hazard. Safety and conservation issues do have to be taken into account when you hide a cache.

 

3. The secrecy and elitism that pervades caver culture and the complex politics of organized caving is not going to disappear anytime soon. It seems that it is particulary difficult there in Colorado. I think that you can expect to butt heads with these buttheads for as long as you continue to try to hide caches in caves.

 

I recommend that you should try hiding caches near caves and offering coordinates to the entrance in the logbook. In this way, you could defeat many of the objections put forth by cavers. You would not be distributing locations of caves on the internet, no 'foreign object' or 'litter' would be left in the caves, and no inexperiened on improperly equipped person would have to enter a 'dangerous' cave to get the treasure or earn a smiley face. They won't like this idea either, of course, but that's their problem, not yours.

 

I really do hope that you will keep a dialoge open with organized cavers and at least listen to what they have to say. The vast majority of them are genuinely concerned about the caves and the safety of the persons who explore them. I have had a very good working relationship with cavers in my area. I have not hidden any caches in caves out of respect for these persons who really do work hard to preserve caves. I am currently working on an idea to hide a cache near the entrance of a cave that is owned by cavers and I'm pretty sure that they will let me do it. We CAN compromise and get along. I think. It seems like things are a bit different there in Colorado. I hear things like 'I wish I had spoken up' and begin to wonder. I won't blame you for 'demonizing' organized caving where you live when a group of cavers throws your caches into a campfire. They have fairly earned their reputation. Take the high ground and stay on it, Vader.

 

Johnny

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quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:

I recommend that you should try hiding caches near caves and offering coordinates to the entrance in the logbook.

...{snipped for brevity}

They won't like this idea either, of course, but that's their problem, not yours.


 

Actually, that's EXACTLY what the NSS likes. They DO prefer that idea. (As published in the NSS News article I summarized here last spring.)

 

Offsets and Multi's would obviously be good too...

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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quote:
Originally posted by RJFerret:

 

Actually, that's _EXACTLY_ what the NSS likes. They _DO_ prefer that idea. (As published in the NSS News article I summarized here last spring.)

 

Offsets and Multi's would obviously be good too...

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy


 

I don't see this as an issue with the NSS. The problem is with a few of their most experienced and vocal fanatic members. They could care less what the NSS policies are regarding caches. I am certain that the NSS would not condone burning and stealing caches. Perhaps the NSS should begin by revoking memberships of the offending parties. It is their members who are causing this problem, instead of working for solutions. I would guess that if cachers started acting in a similar manner as these socalled cavers, the caving community would go postal. The ones responsible for this particular act of vandalism are not simply "misguided, well meaning cavers".

 

"Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!"

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quote:
Originally posted by BadAndy:

I don't see this as an issue with the NSS. The problem is with a few of their most experienced and vocal fanatic members. They could care less what the NSS policies are regarding caches. I am certain that the NSS would not condone burning and stealing caches. Perhaps the NSS should begin by revoking memberships of the offending parties. It is their members who are causing this problem, instead of working for solutions. I would guess that if cachers started acting in a similar manner as these socalled cavers, the caving community would go postal. The ones responsible for this particular act of vandalism are not simply "misguided, well meaning cavers".


 

One of the solutions would be for geocaches to obtain the proper placement permission that they are supposed to, and that wasn't done in this case. When do you suppose geocaching.com will start revoking memberships of it's members that don't follow the gc.com rules and guidelines?

 

The burning was an unfortunate gesture, but certain geocachers are just fanning the flames of confrontation. These geocachers have recently crossed a line that may result in Federal intervention. We'll just have to see how this plays out.

 

George

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quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

 

 

The burning was an unfortunate gesture, *snip*

George


 

An "unfortunate gesture" would be if I gave a madrat the finger. My understanding is that a number of caches were taken from a cave, produced at the campfire, and burned for the pleasure of those attending. I also read that one of the main instigators sits on an NSS committee formed to make NSS policy regarding Geocaching.

 

I have been to the NSS forums, there are certain cavers there...well respected among their peers...longtime experienced cavers, that live to fan the flames of the caching debate.

 

I received 4 emails from regulars on that forum apologizing for one of the most vocal anticaching posters, but they didn't want to post it publicly because he is one of their buddies.

 

I don't know the history between vader and the rats, but if my experience with them is any indication....he is well justified in his anger. Any meaningful resolution won't be made with their involvement...let alone their leadership

 

"Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!"

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quote:
Originally posted by BadAndy:

An "unfortunate gesture" would be if I gave a madrat the finger.


 

And it's this attitude that just makes things worse.

 

I don't know of this "anticaching" attitude on those forums. Granted, I've become jaded with geocaching because of the politics, but there is no general vendetta against geocachers.

 

I live in an area where there are hundreds of small caves in my county. There are 7 within my sudivision alone. However, there is no friction between the local geocachers and cavers. They respect each others existance, and have come to a general understanding that geocaches and caves don't mix well, and are probably best as individual activities. I'd support any joint efforts between the two groups, but so far no one has come up with workable activity. There really doesn't seem to be any geocachers in this area that have a great desire to go underground, let alone placing a cache underground.

 

quote:
I have been to the NSS forums, there are certain cavers there...well respected among their peers...longtime experienced cavers, that live to fan the flames of the caching debate.

 

I received 4 emails from regulars on that forum apologizing for one of the most vocal anticaching posters, but they didn't want to post it publicly because he is one of their buddies.


 

I've read those threads, and frankly, there are other issues involved than caving...like attitudes toward drug use. It's nothing that deserves being discussed on either forum, but it has nonetheless served to taint objectivity.

 

quote:
I don't know the history between vader and the rats, but if my experience with them is any indication....he is well justified in his anger. Any meaningful resolution won't be made with their involvement...let alone their leadership

 

I'd have to say it works both ways. You've made it clear that you think certain caving individuals shouldn't be allowed in the debate. I can just as well say that particular geocachers shouldn't be allowed, either, but I don't think either side should be censored. In any case, I think some Federal involvement could bring this particular issue to a close. Like I said, we'll just have to see what happens.

 

George

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George, I think it's disingenuous to say that an anti-caching attitude does not exist on the caving forums. When I posted my new found cave...asking for advice, all was well until the word geocaching was mentioned. From that point on the tone turned negative, to include emailed threats against me and my noncave caches ( I have no cave caches). One of the posters there even went so far as to scour this forum looking for anything to use against me....finally settling on a joke he found objectionable. His resulting posts declared me everything from a poor parent to a troll just looking for a riot.

 

The simple truth is that I went to cavers for help and advice with an open mind...and was met by both the common sense help I wanted...and a bucketload of feces from the madrat in charge.

 

"Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!"

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quote:
Originally posted by BadAndy:

George, I think it's disingenuous to say that an anti-caching attitude does not exist on the caving forums. When I posted my new found cave...asking for advice, all was well until the word geocaching was mentioned.


 

I've admitted being a geocacher on that forum. I was a bit hesitant to say so because I actually have a couple of cave caches (virtuals). I expected a few hard-liners to come down on me, but that wasn't the case. Off-forum responses have been positive and several have asked for more information about geocaching.

 

Now, I'm sure your experience might have been different. I'm just saying that I didn't get any flak for saying I was a geocacher on that forum...perhaps that was tempered by my statement of disillusionment with gc.com. In general I think geocaching itself is a fine activity...I'm just fed up with the politics.

 

quote:
From that point on the tone turned negative, to include emailed threats against me and my noncave caches ( I have no cave caches).


 

I thought you placed one in a lava tube, or am I thinking of someone else?

 

quote:

One of the posters there even went so far as to scour this forum looking for anything to use against me....finally settling on a joke he found objectionable. His resulting posts declared me everything from a poor parent to a troll just looking for a riot.

 

The simple truth is that I went to cavers for help and advice with an open mind...and was met by both the common sense help I wanted...and a bucketload of feces from the madrat in charge.


 

Again, this is a personal issue between individuals. I'm not taking sides either way, other than to say such conflicts aren't conducive to finding common ground. I'm at odds with certain individuals myself, so I'm speaking from experience.

 

The cache-burning incident is just one skirmish among many between certain folks on both sides. It wasn't something that happened without a lot of history already leading up to it.

 

George

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quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

...I think some Federal involvement could bring this particular issue to a close...George


 

If it did, it would no doubt close caving as a viable use of federal lands as well. Right now the federal stand on protected caves is similar to sensitive archaeological sites. Keep it secret. The next step is to keep it closed. There is no middle ground between where we are and where things could go.

 

Careful what you wish for. You could win the battle and lose the war. Access is one thing that both cavers and geocachers need to maintain.

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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

If it did, it would no doubt close caving as a viable use of federal lands as well. Right now the federal stand on protected caves is similar to sensitive archaeological sites. Keep it secret. The next step is to keep it closed. There is no middle ground between where we are and where things could go.

 

Careful what you wish for. You could win the battle and lose the war. Access is one thing that both cavers and geocachers need to maintain.


 

Doubtful. This is a particular case and certain folks could be in violation of Federal law for publishing the locations on the Internet. They've set up a new website specifically advertising these locations, but they're also now trying to distance themselves from geocaching for some reason....they still use their geocaching IDs, though.

 

As you've said, the Federal stance is to keep the location of these caves under wraps. These individuals are challenging those laws. We'll just have to await the outcome.

 

George

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Nincehelser

 

This is in response to the following statement about Vader and CaverOne.

 

Written by Nincehelser: They've set up a new website specifically advertising these locations, but they're also now trying to distance themselves from geocaching for some reason....they still use their geocaching IDs, though.

 

This web site has nothing to do with Geocaching. It was not posted to get even with those who burnt the caches. As far as backing away from Geocaching, I just placed a new cache today. It's an urban cache and not a cave cache, and it just got it's first hit. Right now I am trying to decide what I am going to do with many of the cave caches in White River National Forest. Some of them might go away, instead of being replaced.

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quote:
Originally posted by Vader:

This web site has nothing to do with Geocaching. It was not posted to get even with those who burnt the caches. As far as backing away from Geocaching, I just placed a new cache today. It's an urban cache and not a cave cache, and it just got it's first hit. Right now I am trying to decide what I am going to do with many of the cave caches in White River National Forest. Some of them might go away, instead of being replaced.


 

That's what I meant to say. That *site* is trying to distance itself from geocaching...as individuals I guess you're still caching, but you do use your geocaching IDs on that site. You're going out of your way to tell people the site has nothing to do with geocaching, but unfortunatley that link has already been made in many people's mind.

 

I know, of course, that you'll say you have no control over that site. With your ID so prominently mentioned on the home page, I really don't believe it. It sure sounds like you're a partner. If you aren't, you should ask to have your name removed.

 

You might say that the site isn't in retaliation to the cache-burning, but it really doesn't matter. It's just another skirmish in an on-going battle, and geocaching, rightly or wrongly, has been implicated. If this really does escalate to a Federal level, it's going to be hard to keep the word "geocaching" out of the arguments.

 

George

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quote:
Originally posted by BadAndy:

I don't see this as an issue with the NSS.

...{snipped for brevity}

They could care less what the NSS policies are regarding caches...


 

Thanks for emphasizing that--it reinforces my earlier point that this is a personal issue.

 

So why continue giving it an international platform? Why continue promoting the illegal actions of a geocacher and the cavers who saved him by destroying the evidence?

 

Since the vast majority of cachers and cavers respect laws and each other, let's not blow this out of proportion. (No amount of debating will undo what's done...)

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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Caves are a very sensitive ecological zone and should be off-limits to caching, IMO. Serious cavers even wear special shoes, or no shoes, to avoid leaving even footprints. It's no different than Geocaching to a fragile archaeological site, or to the center of a crypto-soil colony.

 

GPS doesn't even work underground anyway!

 

Caches near cave entrances or virtual-caches to already well-known caves should be OK.

 

Best Wishes,

Bob

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