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How often do you actually get permission to place a cache?


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I suspect that permission to place a cache will probably be an absolute requirement soon. IMHO it probably should have always been that way, even though such a rule would SEVERLY hamper the growth of the sport. But in the long run, it would probably be for the best and might even be the one major thing we could do to insure the very survival of caching.

 

I am curious where we stand statistically at this time on this issue.

 

Please vote regarding all caches you have placed, regardless of whether you might have changed your personal policy on this recently.

 

For the purposes of this poll, 'Permission' can be liberally interpreted, verbal is OK, even if the person granting permission might not have actual authority to grant it (many times no one really knows who would have that authority). But the simple lack of anyone saying 'NO' does not constitute permission for the purposes of this poll.

 

How often do you get permission to place a cache? Please be honest about it.

 

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

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Most places do not require permission to place a cache. I don’t ask permission to play Frisbee in the park, I won’t ask for geocaching (hiding or finding) either. If the rulemongers get their way and push nonsense like that through, I’ll lie.

 

You have to understand human nature. If I ask you for permission to do something you’ve never heard of, and you aren’t aware of any prohibition or acceptance of the thing, you will say no. That’s a lot easier than finding out the real truth, and keeps you out of trouble. The only real authority to place a cache in a city park comes from the mayor and or town counsel, unless they’ve delegated the authority to someone else. For state or federal land, the authority is higher and more remote.

 

My permission comes from common sense; I don’t have to ask anyone to apply that any more than I have to ask permission to wipe my @ss.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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I voted 0%, and I'll explain why, for the benefit of anti-cachers who will likely point to this thread to prove how evil we are: at the time I placed my caches on state land, the DNR FAQ said that there was no problem with geocaching. So I didn't ask. They want you to fill out a permit now (free). I plan to do so for these. My only other is a micro in a public area among some college campus buildings, and anything goes on a college campus.

 

My 0% vote does not mean I will never ask. It means I haven't asked on the ones I have placed so far.

 

Flat_MiGeo_B88.gif

"Winter's just the curtain. Spring will take the bow"

-- Richard Shindell, Spring

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now i just asked for permission to place caches in my local city parks.... it took a few weeks but it was approved.

 

The reason it took so long was that the idea/proposal had to go to a park board of directors meeting and be approved.

 

Remember, you are not going to ask a govenment department head for permission and get it right away, they have a group that they answer to that has to approve or deny these things

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Most places do not require permission to place a cache. I don’t ask permission to play Frisbee in the park, I won’t ask for geocaching (hiding or finding) either. If the rulemongers get their way and push nonsense like that through, I’ll lie.

 

You have to understand human nature. If I ask you for permission to do something you’ve never heard of, and you aren’t aware of any prohibition or acceptance of the thing, you will say _no_. That’s a lot easier than finding out the real truth, and keeps you out of trouble. The only real authority to place a cache in a city park comes from the mayor and or town counsel, unless they’ve delegated the authority to someone else. For state or federal land, the authority is higher and more remote.

 

My permission comes from common sense; I don’t have to ask anyone to apply that any more than I have to ask permission to wipe my @ss.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

 

Criminal you are so far out in left field that home plate is not even visible. I am a Park Manager and I have several Geocaches in my parks that I have approved. My agency gave me the authority to approve them. If they are placed with my permission so that I can assure they are not in a sensitive place, I will approve them on the spot. If they are placed without my knowlege they will be picked up and thrown in the trash. The only reasons to not get approval is if you think they will not be approved or if you are lazy.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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I have 3 caches placed. One on our own property (I approved that one), and two in state areas. One is a "State Recreational Area" which I did not ask permission for. The other is in a "State Forest". Since there has been some problems nearby to us (Madison, WI) where they have outlawed ALL caches in their Forest Preserves, I decided that I had better ask for permission for my most recent placement. I e-mailed and then called the superintendent of that particular unit, told him all about what geocaching is, and asked him permission. He informed me that the particular place I had in mind would be a bit dicey as there are certain places within that area that are off-limits, but are not clearly marked. I suggested a spot across the road which is still under his jurisdiction and he said that would work well. I guess the bottom line is that you should try it work with and educate the powers-that-be in order to allow our hobby/activity/whatever-you-call-this to continue on.

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quote:
Criminal you are so far out in left field that home plate is not even visible.

 

Please re-read the last sentence. If permission is required, ask. If permission is not required, don't ask. If you are unsure, don't ask. Common sense is easy to explain.

 

There are no city parks around here that have "sensitive" areas. I don't need anyone to tell me what is a good hiding spot and what is a bad one. My brain seems to work just fine.

 

quote:
...I have several Geocaches in my parks that I have approved

 

Your parks? I think I may have found the problem...

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:

Don't ask if you don't have to. Why cut your own throat and run the risk of a "no" if you don't need to? Then you've just lost a nice area to cache in, and you didn't even have to ask in the first place....


 

And if they are found by the owner/managers you just put another black eye on the rest of us and the sport so yea, go ahead and screw it up for everyone.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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How does that old saying go.....

 

"Sometimes its easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission."

 

I may have that off slightly, but the jist is accurate. And I'm NOT saying I live by that rule, just thought it was relevant to the discussion.

 

Usual Suspects - Terrapin & Bug

"Sure don't know what I'm goin' for, but I'm gonna go for it for sure!"

Animated_MiGO_A88.gif

 

[This message was edited by Terrapin Flyer on May 08, 2003 at 10:52 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BrownMule:

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

 

_Your_ parks? I think I may have found the problem...

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

 

I guess you don't call where you work "Your Job" get a life.

 

_


 

Wow, great comeback. I have a life and I have my own brain, I don't need anyone to think for me. You make the assumption that people in general cannot walk through your park without some sort of guidance. Sorry, instead of sending insults back and forth, let's agree to disagree. You have your power-base and the way you handle it is indicative of your character. I believe in freedom, as such, my opinion will default towards the individual and his/her right to use the parks they paid for. We just see it from different sides, but it's the same coin.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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Brown Mule - I do appreciate that you're a progressive land manager who promotes good geocaching in "your" parks. I'm on record as encouraging permission in those parks that have an established policy, and I also believe in working to implement brand new pro-geocaching policies. I've very much enjoyed my interactions with the land managers where some of my caches are hidden.

 

All that being said, I also believe that little purpose is served by telling Criminal that he is "out in left field" or to "get a life." Criminal has made his position on the permission issue well known, and he states his case articulately. I respect his right to that opinion, even though I disagree with it in part. And you know what? He is RIGHT, in my humble opinion, with regard to thousands of cache placements made without permission. Does anyone seriously believe that all those clever urban microcaches are placed under benches and along fences with permission? I have one like that myself. But on the other hand, in our State Parks where there is a formal geocaching policy, you won't find a stronger advocate than me for getting permission.

 

There's room here for all views. I can rely on Criminal and other responsible geocachers not to "mess it up for the rest of us" for openly flaunting "the rules" by placing caches without permission in parks with published policies. For places with no published policies, that's probably 80 percent of the website, don't you think?

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Some mornings, it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather straps. - Emo Phillips

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Ummm, BM...

 

With the exception of yourself, everyone who has responded to this thread pretty much is in agreement. Why are you acting as if Criminal is the only one to disagree with you.

 

(This post is not to be taken as a defense of Criminal as he is doing a fine job on his own.)

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Hey, I'm glad we're talking about this issue. I work at a private university, and was thinking about a great micro spot under a bench in a spot that has a circular "table" with the latitude and longitude etched in metal (not a benchmark). So do I ask or not, I think? Well, who should I ask, Facilities and Grounds, Security, the Dean, the President, does anyone care? Its not an ecologically sensitive area, not of national security? So, reading posts like this one helps, because I can see what others are doing, or not, and try to figure out what is the "right" decision. Thanks for everyone's honest information.

grrrrr..... jackbear

 

Grrrrrrrrr...

jackbear

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Most land managers are aware of the existence of geocaching and the presence of caches on "their" land by now. Some have acted to stop it, regulate it, or otherwise restrict the sport. Others have established geocaching friendly policies, that usually require some sort of permission .

 

Many others give their tacit approval by ignoring the sport and leaving caches and geocachers alone. They have no problem with geocaching, but don't want to stick their necks out and give official sanction to the sport (and often don't even have the power to do so if they wanted to). Putting them on the spot by demanding official acceptance will only be counter productive.

 

Where permission is required, of course it should be obtained before placing a cache. But in other areas, I'm with Criminal.

 

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

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i recently placed a cache in a city park. teh rec director said i'd need waivers and all sorts of nonsense to do it. i suggested that he consider it similar to a bike club meeting in the park and going for a ride. we don't need forms for that.

 

i also told him that sometimes the land manager winks and looks the other way. he made an informal poll of his staff, gave me some guidelines, and decided to look the other way.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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quote:
Originally posted by jackbear:

I work at a private university, and was thinking about a great micro spot...


In my case, it is a public university. Publicly funded, plus I paid tuition. My thinking is, if some kid with not enough homework can put up a shanty to protest meat in the middle of campus or plaster his crappy band's flyers everywhere, I can hide a CD tin there, too. Besides, a campus cop at the same U stopped me while I was hunting another cache once, and their response when I explained it was, "Huh, interesting. But you're not snipping this fence, right? Okay, then."

 

Edit: To clarify, I was not snipping the fence. That's really what they asked.

Flat_MiGeo_B88.gif

"Winter's just the curtain. Spring will take the bow"

-- Richard Shindell, Spring

 

[This message was edited by Dinoprophet on May 08, 2003 at 10:19 AM.]

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Just wanted to lend a vote of support for an element in BM's posts. Living as a part of any society necessarily limits freedoms -- I think there's a saying along the lines of "My right to swing my fists ends where the other person's face starts." In areas where there is a known acceptance of Geocaching and not just existence of other caches (or potentially of similar activities, I'm guessing this is what Criminal is alluding to with his mention of use of common sense), permission may not be necessary. When in doubt, though, I feel it's safer to ask and risk the 'no.' Someone said "Why cut your own throat and run the risk of a "no" if you don't need to?" -- Why cut other geocacher's throats and run the risk of an unwelcome cache and caching if you don't need to? That's the sort of thing that can make our sport less welcome. I'd rather risk my own potential cache than risk the acceptance of geocaching in the area.

 

One way I can think of that could get around the 'default no' might be to ask first if there's any policy on Geocaching, rather than asking if you can place a cache. If so, you adhere to it. If not, the land manager has the opportunity to express their opinion, and you may have the opportunity to do some educating. In any event, it gives the land manager more of an opportunity to "look the other way" when they might not be comfortable giving an outright certificate of approval. Just a thought.

 

-- If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. If life is less kind, grow mushrooms.

 

[This message was edited by MycoCache on May 08, 2003 at 10:38 AM.]

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MycoCache,I agree with you totally.

 

I do want to make myself a little clearer on a couple of issues. First my sarcastic remark to criminal about "my park" was only because he was clouding the issue and his remark meant nothing to the conversation. He was interpreting something out of context just to get back at me. To clear up my view, I am only talking about getting permission when it is clear and known that the land owner or manager requires permission. The reason that I require Geocachers to obtain permission is because my superiors say that I must require it and approve the hiding place. Now that being said, I do not think that in all cases permission is necessary. I do not however agree with the statement that if you don't ask for permission to play Frisbee then you should not have to ask to Geocache. Laws are made for whatever reason, most of the time we don't know the reason but they must be obeyed. Some parks allow pets, some don't, some parks allow alcohol, some don't, some parks allow Geocaching some don't. My take is to find out what is allowed and then do the right thing which is to obey the law or rule or policy. I do understand that some people don't obey all laws but I don't have to agree with it. When you deal with park lands how do you know if you are treading on fragile areas if you don't ask. Would most of us know one endangered plant from another? Our biologist reveals new protected species to us on a regular bases and we must add these areas to our protected sites. Last week alone we discovered a rare species of Pitcher Plant in the park and had to route foot traffic around it while still allowing folks to see it and enjoy it's beauty. A few months ago a Bald Eagle built a nest near a service road and we had to establish a 700' buffer from the nest to all traffic. This is required by federal law. This restricted the movements of the park staff only and in no way impeded vistors.(See we must also obey our own laws) I also know that there would be no need for police officers if everyone obeyed every law. So now those are the reasons you need ask for permission. Not so that some puffed up park manager can flex his ego, but so that we can assure that the Bald Eagle will return and that the endangered pitcher plants will survive for all to appreciate for many generations to come. Also I think it is great that we are Americans and can express our opinions and isn't it wonderful that we don't always have to agree.

Just My opinion.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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[This message was edited by BrownMule on May 08, 2003 at 10:42 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by BrownMule on May 08, 2003 at 10:44 AM.]

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I have found it very rewarding to ask for permission to place caches, even though I have been told "no" on a couple of occassions.

 

I have a great relationship with a park in Indiana, where they help me maintain the cache and they even added a camera!

 

In PA, the DCNR has recently instituted pro-geocaching guidelines (thanks to some behind-the-scenes work by a small, green man and a few other normal-looking people). I love that.

 

Even more local to me, in my county, I have found positive results again. I asked the local Conservancy for permission, and they said "no" BUT because of my questions, they have created their own geocaching username and will be placing caches for me to score. How schweet can it get? Another local place to me said "yes" and the Ranger is even attending one of our event caches to talk to the cachers.

 

-- I recognize fun when I see it.

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quote:
Originally posted by BrownMule:

A few months ago a Bald Eagle built a nest near a service road and we had to establish a 700' buffer from the nest to all traffic. This is required by federal law. This restricted the movements of the park staff0


 

I deal with this crap all the time on my projects. The rules are rules, but when you think about it, the Eagle made it's nest before traffic was re-routed. Bald Eagles are proving adept at being urban scavengers. Give them some tree's for nests (and we like trees along rivers anyway) and you are good to go. But the law is the law.

 

The other day I spoke before a board who is building the local greenway's. They had not heard of geocaching but liked the idea. Why? It promotes people using the greenways and builds public support for their projects.

 

This is different from getting permission for geocaches on the land. I was after support for the sport from a recogonized public entity, to counter the other public agencies that will come out against geocaching. I'm working on it. My permission ratio is at 25%. I ask where I know I need to ask.

 

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

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I'm also glad to see an honest discussion of the permission issue. Here in MD, we have a system in place at the state level. My cache placed in Tuckahoe State park was approved by the state DNR.

 

I'm leaning toward Criminal and BrianSnat's side. If there's a policy in place, follow it. I'm sure the other park managers where my caches are placed know of their existance. My Ivy Hill cache has been in place since April 2001. There have been no problems as a result of its placement. They have not developed a policy on geocaches.

 

The cache owner is responsible for the cache that he/she places. If a land manager were to contact me concerning one of my caches, I would certainly be cooperative.

 

The caches that have caused problems in my area were in poor locations (attached to old RR tracks, in wildlife sanctuary). The bulk of caches remain "Out of sight, out of mind".

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Hey BrownMule-

 

I said "IF you don't need to ask permission", then don't. How could it be a black eye on the sport if I don't need permission in the first place? IF a park or any other place requires permission to place a geocache, then yes, I would ask. Fair enough?

 

If anyone REQUIRES a person to ask for permission when they didn't otherwise HAVE to, they are considered to be on a self-delusional power trip IMHO.

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I voted about 25%. Some places it's fairly obvious that you need permission, others it's obvious it's not.

 

When in doubt, ask.

 

What I've taken to doing if I'm not sure is I ask if it'd be alright if I hike off-trail. I don't have to get into a full-blown explaination of caching AND know if they're worried about sensitive areas.

 

CR

 

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quote:
I said "IF you don't need to ask permission", then don't. How could it be a black eye on the sport if I don't need permission in the first place? IF a park or any other place requires permission to place a geocache, then yes, I would ask. Fair enough?


I generally go with the ask forgiveness later approach on most aspects in life, but I had an interesting permission granted experience this past weekend. The RDU TB Hotel cache is hidden in a tree off of the back parking lot of an airport area hotel. I got a call from the property "concerning a package found on the grounds with your number in it". After I explained geocaching to the manager on the other end and offered to pick it up and remove it from the property, she replied "Oh no that sounds really cool. We'll put it back there for you!" So I now have one cache (of three) out there with permission granted after forgiveness was begged. icon_cool.gif

 

These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes;

Nothing remains quite the same.

Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

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Originally posted by TEAM 360:

Hey BrownMule-

 

TEAM 360:I said "IF you don't need to ask permission", then don't.

 

BM:Correct if you don't need to ask for permission you obviously already have permisssion be it granted or implied.

----------------------------------------------------------------

TEAM 360: How could it be a black eye on the sport if I don't need permission in the first place? IF a park or any other place requires permission to place a geocache, then yes, I would ask. Fair enough?

 

BM:Agree

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

TEAM 360:If anyone REQUIRES a person to ask for permission when they didn't otherwise HAVE to, they are considered to be on a self-delusional power trip IMHO.

 

BM Not sure what you mean by REQUIRES when they don't HAVE to. I assume if law or rule on a public land required you to get permission then you would assume the land manager was required to enforce the law and require you to get permission. If this is what you mean then we agree if not we don't.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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quote:
Originally posted by BrownMule:

<Insult deleted>. I am a Park Manager and I have several Geocaches in my parks that I have approved. My agency gave me the authority to approve them. If they are placed with my permission so that I can assure they are not in a sensitive place, I will approve them on the spot. If they are placed without my knowlege they will be picked up and thrown in the trash. The only reasons to not get approval is if you think they will not be approved or <petty insult deleted>.


I am confused. In a later post, you mention that you are pro-geocaching and that you only require approval because you are required to do so and to ensure that the caches are not hidden in protected areas. I don't understand why you don't contact the cachers who place unapproved caches to work out the specifics. If there is no problem with the placement, you can then simply approve it. If there is a problem, you can work it out with the cache owner. I suspect that it was your 'my way or the highway' attitude that resulted in the way the posts have fallen against you in this thread.

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quote:
First my sarcastic remark to criminal about "my park" was only because he was clouding the issue and his remark meant nothing to the conversation. He was interpreting something out of context just to get back at me.

 

Brownmule, I didn’t say anything to “get back at [you]” I made the comment because many who work in the parks act as if it were their property. I also do not say “my Air Force Base” when referring to McChord. Further, the comment does not cloud the issue, it is the issue, I made it the issue by mentioning it.

 

quote:
Some parks allow pets, some don't, some parks allow alcohol, some don't, some parks allow Geocaching some don't.

 

Correct, and if I see a sign displayed at the park entrance that specifically forbids geocaching or mentions a permit is required, then I’ll get one. If I do not see a sign, I give myself permission.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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quote:
Originally posted by BrownMule:

_TEAM 360:_If anyone REQUIRES a person to ask for permission when they didn't otherwise HAVE to, they are considered to be on a self-delusional power trip IMHO.

 

_BM_ Not sure what you mean by REQUIRES when they don't HAVE to. I assume if law or rule on a public land required you to get permission then you would assume the land manager was required to enforce the law and require you to get permission. If this is what you mean then we agree if not we don't.


I think what Team 360 means is this:

If the park has no policy requiring permission it is ok to place one without asking. Some park employees have stumbled across caches and decided to remove them even though there is no policy against them.

 

bandbass.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

quote:
First my sarcastic remark to criminal about "my park" was only because he was clouding the issue and his remark meant nothing to the conversation. He was interpreting something out of context just to get back at me.

 

_Brownmule, I didn’t say anything to “get back at [you]” I made the comment because many who work in the parks act as if it were their property. I also do not say “my Air Force Base” when referring to McChord. Further, the comment does not cloud the issue, it _is_ the issue, I made it the issue by mentioning it. _

 

quote:
Some parks allow pets, some don't, some parks allow alcohol, some don't, some parks allow Geocaching some don't.

 

_Correct, and if I see a sign displayed at the park entrance that specifically forbids geocaching or mentions a permit is required, then I’ll get one. If I do not see a sign, I give myself permission. _

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

 

First of all I am not "Many who work in the parks and second if you only obey the posted laws you break alot of laws. But appearantly that does not concern you. Posting a law is not required to enforce it. I don't care how you refer to where you work, just don't put words in my mouth.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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What a timely discussion. I have been in a quandary for about 3 weeks now. One of the local geocachers put on an event cache. He asked if anyone nearby would like to put in a couple of one day caches. I found a nice spot and everyone who liked it suggested that I make it permanent. Out of respect for a cacher who had already placed two in the same park, I asked him if he thought third cache would be too much. He was very much in favor of another but he had not asked permission for either of his caches. I was reluctant to add it without permission and reluctant to ask permission for fear that he could lose two caches.

 

But, after reading some of the responses here, I re-read the geocaching.com rules. The rules state:

 

"If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules."

 

So if you believe that "if there is a rule you should obey it", you must at least find out what their rules are. It also doesn't say that you must ask permission on public property. In fact, the rule specifically states "If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there!" If the rule planners had intended to require permission on public land, they would not have needed to differentiate between public and private lands.

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quote:
Originally posted by TAT:

What a timely discussion. I have been in a quandary for about 3 weeks now. One of the local geocachers put on an event cache. He asked if anyone nearby would like to put in a couple of one day caches. I found a nice spot and everyone who liked it suggested that I make it permanent. Out of respect for a cacher who had already placed two in the same park, I asked him if he thought third cache would be too much. He was very much in favor of another but he had not asked permission for either of his caches. I was reluctant to add it without permission and reluctant to ask permission for fear that he could lose two caches.

 

But, after reading some of the responses here, I re-read the geocaching.com rules. The rules state:

 

"If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules."

 

So if you believe that "if there is a rule you should obey it", you must at least find out what their rules are. It also doesn't say that you must ask permission on public property. In fact, the rule specifically states "If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there!" If the rule planners had intended to require permission on public land, they would not have needed to differentiate between public and private lands.


 

Geocaching.com policy says to contact the public lands agency to acquire about their rules on Geocaching. So their answer can be. 1. No Geocaches, then do you still hide? 2.Caches are ok with permission, then do you get permission? 3. Caches are ok and no need for permission, then you go hide. So anyway you look at it you have permission if you follow the rules unless you hide when they say no caches allowed. The other point is that it really does not matter what Geocaching.com rules are, the public land agencies set there own and you are bound by them. I don't really see the difference anyway in asking for permission and asking what their policy is. means the same thing to me.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

15777_2200.gif

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quote:
Geocaching.com policy says to contact the public lands agency to acquire about their rules on Geocaching. So their answer can be. 1. No Geocaches, then do you still hide? 2.Caches are ok with permission, then do you get permission? 3. Caches are ok and no need for permission, then you go hide

 

There is a 4th...they have no policy.

 

As far as your last question, there is a big difference between asking for permission and inquiring about existing policies. If you ask for permission, you are in effect asking them to officially approve of the sport.

If you are asking them if there is a policy, they may say yes and explain it to you (anything from a total ban, to pre-approved sites), or they can say there is no policy. If it's the latter, I do not see why a cache can't be placed. No policy doesn't mean approval, or a ban. It means that they don't want to (or can't) put their necks on the chopping block by giving official sanction, but have no problem with it.

 

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

quote:
Geocaching.com policy says to contact the public lands agency to acquire about their rules on Geocaching. So their answer can be. 1. No Geocaches, then do you still hide? 2.Caches are ok with permission, then do you get permission? 3. Caches are ok and no need for permission, then you go hide

 

There is a 4th...they have no policy.

 

As far as your last question, there is a big difference between asking for permission and inquiring about existing policies. If you ask for permission, you are in effect asking them to officially approve of the sport.

If you are asking them if there is a policy, they may say yes and explain it to you (anything from a total ban, to pre-approved sites), or they can say there is no policy. If it's the latter, I do not see why a cache can't be placed. No policy doesn't mean approval, or a ban. It means that they don't want to (or can't) put their necks on the chopping block by giving official sanction, but have no problem with it.

 

_"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues"_ -Abraham Lincoln


 

I agree with most of what you are saying. But some agencies like the NPS actually use another rule to enforce the no Geocaching policy. I beleive it is their abandoned property rule. So it's always good to explain what you want to do so that it does not conflict with another rule already in place like littering or abandoned property.

 

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

15777_2200.gif

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Brown Mule:

quote:
Geocaching.com policy says to contact the public lands agency to acquire about their rules on Geocaching.


 

Perhaps geocaching.com intended to specifically ask about geocaching, but that is not what the words say. If I get a complete set of park rules and geocaching is not listed, then it is allowed. This is a rather strict interpretation. Is it the best practice for geocacing.com?

 

What would you do in my situation? Would you ask for the rules or would you specifically ask about geocching?

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quote:
Originally posted by TAT:

Brown Mule:

quote:
Geocaching.com policy says to contact the public lands agency to acquire about their rules on Geocaching.


 

Perhaps geocaching.com intended to specifically ask about geocaching, but that is not what the words say. If I get a complete set of park rules and geocaching is not listed, then it is allowed. This is a rather strict interpretation. Is it the best practice for geocacing.com?

 

What would you do in my situation? Would you ask for the rules or would you specifically ask about geocching?


 

I would let sleeping dogs lie. Place your cache.

 

I too use the same interpretation. If they have a position on geocaching, I abide by their rules. If there is no policy, I'm not going to force the issue.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinoprophet:

My thinking is, if some kid with not enough homework can put up a shanty to protest meat in the middle of campus or plaster his crappy band's flyers everywhere, I can hide a CD tin there, too.


 

Amen to this one!

 

quote:
Originally posted by wimseyguy:

 

I generally go with the ask forgiveness later approach on most aspects in life, but I had an interesting permission granted experience this past weekend. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=46665 cache is hidden in a tree off of the back parking lot of an airport area hotel. I got a call from the property "concerning a package found on the grounds with your number in it". After I explained geocaching to the manager on the other end and offered to pick it up and remove it from the property, she replied "Oh no that sounds really cool. We'll put it back there for you!" So I now have one cache (of three) out there with permission granted after forgiveness was begged. icon_cool.gif


 

I had a similar experience with my cache 'Garden of Hope'. A slight difference though, I had permission to begin with, but the church that owns the property got a new pastor and the pastor's wife found the cache and thought it was one of many items people leave on the site 'in memoriam' (such as they do at the Vietnam Wall in DC).

 

When she read about geocaching from the paper inside and looked at all the kind comments in the log, she put it back and emailed me, apologizing for moving it. She also confirmed the verbal permission of the caretaker in writing.

 

She's going to buy a GPSr. Another convert!

 

I am in agreement with the idea that permission is granted by default on public lands if no specific policy exists. Thanks guys for helping to change MHO on this subject. In the future I will probably proceed on this basis and I hope they DON'T change the rules to REQUIRE permission absolutely.

 

[This message was edited by ChurchCampDave on May 08, 2003 at 08:23 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by ChurchCampDave on May 08, 2003 at 08:26 PM.]

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I've placed 8 traditional caches. Of those:

 

4 were placed in area parks after I worked with the local park department to get a generous geocaching policy established (no need to ask for permission, just follow the rules)

 

1 was placed in a Conservation area after getting permission over the phone

 

1 was placed in a public garden with permission

 

1 was placed along a state park trail without prior permission -- but I knew that the state park agency has no policy nor any procedure to approve or deny caches. Also, the local supervisor is generally supportive but I admit I have had no direct contact with them about this cache.

 

1 was placed on Forest Service land in a district where geocaching is allowed. No permission sought.

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Within the City of Bremerton, WA. I have permission and a license from the Parks & Recreation Dept. However, all other cachers, with one exception, have never considered it necessary to have permission within the said city. As for other areas in Kitsap, it's somewhat dependent on where it's to be hidden, but usually they are on Public lands owned by the county. I have access to a website that tells me whatever I need to know about who owns the land where I want to place a cache.

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Got to go with Criminal on this one. We have placed several caches in our area and have followed all rules except for the asking of permission rule. On one occasion we were contacted by a park manager who didnt like the placement of the cache. He said it was dangerous, and didnt want anyone getting hurt. He also mentioned that he could help us locate it to a new position in that park. we simply chose to move it to a new park. I dont think I will ever ask for permission if I place a cache on public land or in a city park. I would just avoid any area that may seem sensitive to cache placement. Common sense is the rule here it seems.

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quote:
Originally posted by Stingray & Devil Kitty:

On one occasion we were contacted by a park manager who didnt like the placement of the cache. He said it was dangerous, and didnt want anyone getting hurt. He also mentioned that he could help us locate it to a new position in that park. we simply chose to move it to a new park.


 

Could I ask what your reasoning was? It sounds like they was willing to work with you. Could have been the start of a good example for how geocachers and park management can work together.

 

Ron/yumitori

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quote:
It feels great to actually have permission, and not be skulking around......

 

Because there is no geocaching policy in my area, I don't feel like I'm skukling around. I place the caches and if someone has a problem with them, I'm sure they will contact me, or this website.

 

I've found logs from park naturalists, rangers and other officials in my caches. It's my guess that it's OK with them. Heck, with illegal dumping, poaching and trail encroachment, I'm sure that geocaches are near the bottom of the list of their worries.

 

"Au pays des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois"

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quote:
Originally posted by DustyJacket:

I have places 2 caches, both with Jackson County Parks approval.

It feels great to actually have permission, and not be skulking around......

 

Just My Opinion - other things work for other folks.

 

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case... icon_biggrin.gif


 

Skulking is what it's all about. If I couldn't skulk, I'd probably do something other than Geocaching. I have 2 caches in a city parks and 2 on what I guess you could call public streets. We worry less about rules down here than 'yall up north. BM accepted. My reason for not asking permission is this. If I asked and they said no then I couldn't place my cache there. If I didn't ask and they found out, they would confiscate it but at least it would be there for awhile. As for ruining it for all geocachers, not my problem. I'm not much of a group kinda guy.

 

Wisdom comes with age... but sometimes age comes alone.

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I think the "common sense" rule overrules here. Obviously some places don't require permission. Private property probably always requires permission unless it's on a 500,000 acre cattle station in the outback.

 

I recently visited a cache in a Hendricks county park, (your home state, Bluespreacher) and the naturalist asked me what brought me to the park. Since I was wearing a geocaching hat, I hesitantly responded with the truth.

 

The naturalist was delighted and excited.

Turns out their board of directors had already done research on geocaching and realized that the great majority of us are very sensitive to the enviornment. They feel it's a great way to get more people to visit their park.

 

In any case, honesty is the best policy. Recently, I was about to locate a cache near an historical church in the same county. I encountered the pastor, explained what I was doing, and he gently convinced me that it might not be a good idea because of recent vandalism on the property.

 

Just use common sense. If you think you might need permission, you probably do.

 

Great discussion thread, Bluespreacher!

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