Legal Liability

[DisQuoi]

Does anyone worry about liability?

 

Clearly there is some history about people being fined (or jailed?) for cache-placement related activity. With discussions about land managers saying no but winking to cover their collective asses ... are our asses uncovered?

[+bigredmed]

Ther have been reports of geocachers being fined. One recent case in Calif. related to a geocache that was placed very near a train tunnel and was in violation of state law regarding unauthorized access to railways.

 

National Wildlife Preserves and Parks are off limits to geocaches. You can get a stiff fine there.

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

[+T & G's Adventures]

Just the mention of CA is almost 'nuff said...

 

 

Um, honey, did you mark a waypoint for the car?

[shrekTBA]

Could just plead insanity or addiction, in CA they are real suckers for that stuff.

 

It's not a sport unless there is something dead in the back of the truck when you get home.

[Geo Quest]

I'm worried enough about liability that I pulled all of the caches I placed. What did it for me was a thread in these forums regarding just how responsible cache placers were for ensuring the safety of cache seekers. Too many people think that if they get lost/injured/killed while seeking a cache that was placed in a dangerous or challenging location that the hider is somehow to blame. Although this way of thinking is wrong it is all too common.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+briansnat]

In America, anybody can sue anybody for anything (and they do). Of course there are liability issues that come with placing a cache and these issues exist whether or not you have permission to place a cache. If somebody chooses to sue you, ya really don't have much say in the matter. Even if it is a frivolous suit, it's still going to cost you money to defend yourself.

 

I figure I can be sued by someone who trips on a crack in my driveway and as a coach of several youth sports teams, I'm open to a lawsuit if one of my charges is injured. I'm not going to let this fact change the way I live. I'll still coach, and I'll still place caches (but I'll make sure that crack in my driveway is fixed).

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

[+bigredmed]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geo Quest:

I'm worried enough about liability that I pulled all of the caches I placed. What did it for me was a thread in these forums regarding just how responsible cache placers were for ensuring the safety of cache seekers. Too many people think that if they get lost/injured/killed while seeking a cache that was placed in a dangerous or challenging location that the hider is somehow to blame. Although this way of thinking is wrong it is all too common.

 

---

 

These goobers who sue in these settings can be dealt with by a good mean lawyer and a slap suit. All cachers agree to waive liability for using the site. There is implied consent to agree to this when you use the site as the waiver reminder is on every cache page. People who place caches in ridiculous spots are one thing, but placing a cache along a mountain hiking trailor some other reasonable location, should be OK. There is implied waiver of liability that you cite in your defense. You place a cache in a reasonable locale. You give accurate directions and clues that don't require seekers to disrupt property or engage in excessive risk. You have taken all the steps you could reasonably take to place the cache properly. While the injuries suffered by the seeker are sad, they are not your fault.

 

I will still place my caches. I will follow the guidelines and obey local laws/ordinances. Hopefully folks will have some fun at my sites.

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

[+Planet]

Why is this country so friggin litigious? Everyone wants to sue everyone else for their own stupidity and clumsiness. This is why our insurance is so expensive, among other things. If you trip and fall down, too bad. You weren't watching your step. It's your fault! Has a geocacher actually tried to sue another for placing a cache where they stumbled? Can this be true?

 

Cache you later,

Planet

 

I feel much more like I do now than when I first got here.

[Deanster]

I guess I better remove the bear traps I put around my caches. Somebody might try to convince a lawyer I was out to hurt them for just shear evil when they SHOULD know it was just part of the plan to make finding the cache a little more fun.

[+embra]

To me, the joy of hiding and seeking caches is tangible. The threat of litigation seems remote (though possible). The cases of those being fined that were cited above sound like they were based on situations where well-known rules (or at least, rules that should have been well-known) were violated.

 

I figure I'll keep on keepin' on with my eyes open until the time that the going gets weird (e.g., frivolous lawsuits start popping up). My experience has been that if you live your live responsibly and ethically, litigation risks are low.

[+Mr. Snazz]

...is Harvey Birdman, Attourney at Law!

 

[+georgeandmary]

Originally posted by bigredmed:

 

People who place caches in ridiculous spots are one thing, but placing a cache along a mountain hiking trailor some other reasonable location, should be OK.

[/qoute]

 

What is a reasonable spot. Underwater, at the top of a mountain requireing climbing ropes, in a tree, how about a cache that requires floating down a river with rapids on it. How about one that is a 9 mile hike into a wilderness area with the closest paved road being 20 miles away and NO CELL RECEPTION AVAILABLE.

 

It's all been done and that's why we have ratings. The terrain rating tells you it's tough.

 

Besides geocaching, I also ride mountain bikes. There are websites that list, and rate trails for riding. Some are easy and some are epic trails that follow cliffs where a slip up would be sure death. There is no difference in hiding a geocaching and saying go find it and post a trail recomndation and saying go ride it.

 

It's not an issue with mountainbike trails, why would it be an issue with a geocache.

 

george

 

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Add a disclaimer to your cache page like Disclaimer:search at your own risk, If worried cover your a**. That is the oldest excuse in the books, "you are responsible for my actions", never is someone responsible for another persons actions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I am what I am

 

When all else fails Geotry again.

[+bigredmed]

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgeandmary:

Originally posted by bigredmed:

 

People who place caches in ridiculous spots are one thing, but placing a cache along a mountain hiking trailor some other reasonable location, should be OK.

[/qoute]

 

What is a reasonable spot. Underwater, at the top of a mountain requireing climbing ropes, in a tree, how about a cache that requires floating down a river with rapids on it. How about one that is a 9 mile hike into a wilderness area with the closest paved road being 20 miles away and NO CELL RECEPTION AVAILABLE.

 

It's all been done and that's why we have ratings. The terrain rating tells you it's tough.

 

---

 

Well said, what I was getting at was placement of the cache in a manner that only allowed access by climbing a rickety rope ladder, or trekking across some protected site that would get the user in legal trouble. These type of placements are often not spelled out, and its not until you are three miles from the trailhead that you realize that there is no way to get to the location without either putting yourself in danger or doing something that will get you in trouble. This type of cache might be actionable.

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

[+Alan2]

quote:

---

Besides geocaching, I also ride mountain bikes. There are websites that list, and rate trails for riding. Some are easy and some are epic trails that follow cliffs where a slip up would be sure death. There is no difference in hiding a geocaching and saying go find it and post a trail recomndation and saying go ride it.

---

 

I'm not a lawyer but with geocaching the hider created the "hazard" with the container he has hid. People commenting or recommending biking trails they didn't create is not different than me saying you should drive Route 307 because it's scenic and then you get into an accident driving it.

 

Birds of a different feather in my opinion.

 

Alan

[+cachew nut]

If you rate the difficulty and terrain using the recommended rating system, then that should cover you I would think. If your lawyer fails to point out that it was properly rated, then it's time for a different lawyer.

[+Brokenwing]

This thread may be the one Geo Quest was referring to.

 

Scott / Brokenwing

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

 

***********************************

 

There's a thin line between geocaching and walking in circles like an idiot.

[+briansnat]

quote:

---

I'm not a lawyer but with geocaching the hider created the "hazard" with the container he has hid. People commenting or recommending biking trails they didn't create is not different than me saying you should drive Route 307 because it's scenic and then you get into an accident driving it.

 

Birds of a different feather in my opinion.

---

 

Your opinion doesn't matter much more than a hill of beans. What is right? Doesn't matter. If their lawyer is better'n yers, you lose.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

[Duke of the Desert]

When it comes to being liable for anything, remember these three things. Any good attorney knows these by heart.

 

1) Duty owed

2) Breach of duty

3) Proximate cause

 

Do you owe the people searching for your cache any duty?

 

Did you breach that duty?

 

Was your breach of that duty the proximate cause of their injuries?

 

"it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" Acts 26:14

[+cachew nut]

Since there probably doesn't exist any case law for a situation like this, it is likely that the outcome of the first case will set the precedent for all future cases to follow.

[Geo Quest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brokenwing:

http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=2010963314 may be the one Geo Quest was referring to.

 

Scott / Brokenwing

 

---

 

Actually, I was referring to this thread where we were discussing a cache placed very near a railroad track. Most people (including me) would agree that a cache placed very near a railroad track is potentially dangerous. What genuinely surprised me was the number of people who also believed that the cache hider was directly responsible for ensuring a cache-seeker's safety.

One frequent forum participant stated that the placer of such a cache is endangering the lives of those who seek it. There were at least two others who were in complete agreement. I am in complete disagreement with this position.

 

One cache I found required disembarking from my vehicle on the shoulder of a busy freeway, one required me to climb a tree, one required me to scale a steep, rocky slope, and one required me to walk a short distance ON a railroad track. At each cache location I was in danger. The placer of said caches was NOT endangering me. I was endangering myself.

 

Even though my position is common sense and supported by logic there are still a significant amount of individuals out there who will not and do not accept responsibility for their actions. They believe it is someone else's duty to make them safe, happy, and healthy. They blame their obesity on restaurants, their diseases on tobacco manufacturers, their car accidents on auto-makers, and their injuries on the owner's of the property where it ocurred. If you want to be like that, fine by me, but maybe geocaching isn't the sport for you.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+Freelens&Mosie]

quote:

---

Do you owe the people searching for your cache any duty?

 

Did you breach that duty?

 

Was your breach of that duty the proximate cause of their injuries?

 

"it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" Acts 26:14

---

 

Just as I suspected , personal liability is all a bunch of duty.

 

You can't be lost if you don't care where you are.

[BigDoggie]

This is no laughing matter. It used to be that a showing of liability was required to be awarded damages, but no more. In this "age of entitlement", juries believe that if someone is hurt, someone should pay. Anyone who doubts that need look no further than the jury of morons who awarded MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to the woman who put a cup of hot coffee between her legs and then sloshed the coffee out on her galakachonga. "Like, duh, you mean coffee is supposed to be HOT?!?!"

 

This should also be a concern for people who form, and especially who are officers of, local geocaching clubs. The more activities a club engages in, the more opportunities there are for someone to get sued. And, since the club doesn't exist as a legal entity, that liability passes through to the officers and members. Consider a few scenarios:

 

1. The club holds a meeting: rents a pavilion at a public park, charges no admission, passes the hat to cover expenses, invites members/others to speak on geocaching topics. This seems like a low risk activity.

 

2. The club holds a Geocaching Competition Event with entry fee, rules, prizes, etc. During the competition, a child (or adult) steps in a hole and breaks a leg, or is hit by a passing car, or etc. A lawsuit is a good possibility.

 

3. The club takes no position on the safety or legality of local caches. Since the club did not place the caches, has no connection with them, and did not publicize locations, it is unlikely that any liability for the cache could attach to the club.

 

4. The club appoints itself as the local "cache police" and begins to publically comment on the safety and legality of some local caches. E-mails the placer. Posts information on their local discussion board. Later, someone is hurt at a cache that was dangerous but that the club had missed. A plaintiff's attorney could argue that, by their actions, the club had assumed an obligation to check ALL local caches and to warn of danger.

 

For businesses and homeowners, the protection against liability has always been LIABILITY INSURANCE. For a small, non-profit club, though, this could easily end up being a budget breaker.

 

Club members and club officers need to think about things like this. Your entire net worth is potentially on the line: home, car, savings, 401k, everything.

 

(I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Just a layman's thoughts.)

 

.

 

=================================

Interested in Geocaching in the state of Georgia? Visit the Georgia Geocachers Association at http://www.ggaonline.org

[+geospotter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geo Quest:

 

One frequent forum participant stated that the placer of such a cache is endangering the lives of those who seek it. There were at least two others who were in complete agreement. I am in complete disagreement with this position.

---

 

Well, since I was the one who made that statement, I feel the need to respond.

 

Regardless of your common sense and logic approach to liability law, judges look at it in a different way. Please re-read that thread with regard to creating an "attractive nuisance".

 

If you "entice someone into a dangerous situation" and they are injured, you are liable. There is no doubt that we, as geocachers, are enticing others to seek our caches by publishing the cache pages. So all that remains is to determine if it is a dangerous situation.

 

Hiking through the woods or in a park is one thing, placing a cache in the end of an active train tunnel, or on the side of a cliff, is quite a different ball of wax.

 

Don't expect the "search at your own risk" to save your butt. It only indicates that you knew it was dangerous when you wrote the cache page. Any half-decent lawyer would use these words to hang you.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geo Quest:

 

They believe it is someone else's duty to make them safe, happy, and healthy. They blame their obesity on restaurants, their diseases on tobacco manufacturers, their car accidents on auto-makers, and their injuries on the owner's of the property where it occurred.

---

 

I completely agree with you on this.

 

However, there is a vast difference between ensuring someone's safety and deliberately putting someone in danger.

 

I've only attempted one cache that I thought was dangerous. I knew I could get hurt, but I went ahead. If I had gotten hurt I certainly wouldn't have blamed it on the hider, but there are those who will.

[+Alan2]

If some "wise guy" geocacher deliberately placed a dangerous cache because he thought it was a funny stunt or was just plain malicious, and you got hurt, there could be criminal sanctions I would think under the charge of reckless endangerment. Placing a cache by a cliff, or near an hidden hole in the ground, or in some rocks that you knew probably contain rattlesnakes but failed to post that bit of info.

 

Alan

[Geo Quest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by geospotter:

 

Well, since I was the one who made that statement, I feel the need to respond.

 

If you "entice someone into a dangerous situation" and they are injured, you are liable.

 

Don't expect the "search at your own risk" to save your butt. It only indicates that you knew it was dangerous when you wrote the cache page. Any half-decent lawyer would use these words to hang you.

 

---

 

.....and that is why I no longer place caches.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+sbell111]

If I post a location and let everyone know that there is an element of danger in attempting the find, I suspect that I could beat a lawsuit against me.

 

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

[+sbell111]

In my opinion, a suit would only be successful if the person could not have reasonably forseen the danger.

 

It is likely that the proper use of the rating system will offer some protection. Certainly, if you state in the description that there is an element of danger, you have performed your legal duty.

 

Also, when searching for the cache, could the danger be identified before it is too late. As others have, I have put myself in some amount of danger on a number of occasions while caching. Each time, the danger was identified prior to attempting and I made a conscious to continue. Had I gotten hurt, I do not believe that I could have been successful in a lawsuit.

 

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.