Geocaching impact on the environment: the final word in 10,000 years

July 12, 2003

The point (IMHO) isn't whether Geocaching will have an impact in 10,000 years. As long as no one's leaving radioactive isotopes in their cache (a good "night cache" I suppose), then you'll nary find a trace of it in 10,000 years.

The issue is, I'd still like to enjoy going outdoors in, say, 40 years. That is, if is isn't one giant trash pit filled with all-terrain noisemakers.

Quit being selfish, you wankers.

"Whenever you need to make a choice, opt to do the thing that's more difficult. That's usually the right one."

July 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

I've never known you to show the latter in our debates.

Debates? I wouldn't exactly call your postings "debates". More like misinformed rantings.

Granted, you've lost any respect from me.

George

July 12, 2003

Seriously, the largest possible impact your typical cache is going to have on the environment is a beaten footpath where none existed before.

Okay, maybe a few wild flowers get killed in the process. Maybe a raccoon chokes on a McDonald's toy it managed to steal from a tuperware container.

That's about it as far as damage.

Certainly no more damage than a deer hunter putting up a tree stand or a fisherman beating a trail to a hot fishing spot.

The thing about geocaching that I've noticed is that once a cache has been placed there's a rush of traffic as area cachers run out to log it. Then traffic slows down to a trickle because everyone in the area has already logged it. It's not like hundreds of people are visting the cache a month (I'm talking your 'typical' cache here.). So most of the damage is going to happen in the first few months. AFter that, from what I've seen, nature is able to repair any damage as far as trails.

AM I wrong?

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

"Never declare war on a man who buys his ink by the gallon."

July 12, 2003

quote:
No, you shouldn't say you can just as well go out and kill every living thing you see. Where did this come from?

From your post. It's just a rehash of an ancient philosophy 101 argument.

What I'm pointing out is that you can use that argument to perversely justify a lot of ugly things.

....Lots snipped....

quote:
I respect nature, and take care not to do any serious damage while out caching or doing other activities. But I certainly hope that you don't think that my stepping on a flower is going to somehow upset the balance of nature to the point of changing this planet into a barren wasteland.

Maybe not, but your post came off as not respecting nature. You didn't put in any qualifiers, so how I do I know you're stepping on a dandelion, or a rare endangered flower?

Yes. Bushwhaking *CAN* cause a lot of damage. It all depends on the specifics. If it's a delicate area, the cost could be immense.

Your original post seems to promote bushwacking with no reponsibility, as it will all be cured in 10,000 years. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but that's how you came off to me.

George

July 12, 2003

I think some people who posted are poking fun at the issue. I certainly see the need for protecting the environment.

But like many I'm a little tired of being told that caching is somehow more harmful to the environment than other outdoor activities (such as rock climbing, hiking, hunting, fishing, etc.)

It's irrational thinking on the part of some land managers who don't understand what the sport is about.

Sometimes responding with humor is the only way of venting.

I'm not encouraging bushwhacking. And you do You have a point about 'delicate areas' but caching is prohibted in such areas for the most part anyway.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

"Never declare war on a man who buys his ink by the gallon."

July 12, 2003

Quote:

>But like many I'm a little tired of being told that caching is somehow more harmful to >the environment than other outdoor activities (such as rock climbing, hiking, hunting, >fishing, etc.)

Yeah, and what about baseball fields, football fields, golf courses, boat ramps, national park lodges

Team Sol

July 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:
Seriously, the largest possible impact your typical cache is going to have on the environment is a beaten footpath where none existed before.

I've seen it become much larger. Sometimes a poorly placed path can be catalyst for severe erosion. I've seen a simple footpath down a hill become a nasty ravine in only a few years. I wouldn't say it happens often, but it does happen occasionly.

quote:
Okay, maybe a few wild flowers get killed in the process. Maybe a raccoon chokes on a McDonald's toy who managed to steal from a tuperware container.

It's not always this simple. Some hikers have carried in exotic species seeds on their clothes that have over-run indigenous species. You might think animals could do the same thing, but they don't have modern transportation at their disposal. That's why many preserves don't want you off-trail, it's to prevent contamination as well as out-right damage.

Another example is if breeding patterns of species is disturbed. Some birds, for example, don't take well to having dogs or humans nearby.

quote:
That's about it as far as damage.

Certainly no more damage than a deer hunter putting up a tree stand or a fisherman beating a trail to a hot fishing spot.

AM I wrong?

It all depends on the circumstances. Certainly there are areas where bushwhacking won't hurt, but there are also areas where it will. You just have to be aware of where you are and what you're doing.

Personally, I don't bushwhack unless it is necessary. If I come across a bed of common flowers, I'll just walk around them, rather than trample them to save a few steps. I'd like to have it look nice for the next person.

George

July 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:
But like many I'm a little tired of being told that caching is somehow more harmful to the environment than other outdoor activities (such as rock climbing, hiking, hunting, fishing, etc.)

It's an image problem fueled by mis-information.

People still have this image that geocaching involves digging things up. I guess that's kind of because we sometimes call it a treasure hunt, and that brings up images of pirates with shovels.

George

2.3k · July 12, 2003

quote:
It's an image problem fueled by mis-information.

People still have this image that geocaching involves digging things up. I guess that's kind of because we sometimes call it a treasure hunt, and that brings up images of pirates with shovels.

George

That's one view. Another is that hordes of people will come running across the Homes and Gardens Featured Flowerbed of the Month just to get to the cache, and it just ain't so...

Thank you for your level approach to this. I couldn't agree more about the misconceptions associated with our sport.

Individuals SHOULD use a light foot when having to go through a sensitive area, better yet, you can go around it. But in the event that I step on a fern or snap a twig, I wanted to point out that after so many years, nature WILL repair itself. Even after Capt. Hazelwood dumped all that oil, life IS returning to the area, although THAT cleanup will take many more years.

July 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by General Bracket:

EDIT: http://mchawking.imarc.net/songs/Entropy.mp3 applies too somewhat. Not as bad, but still potentially offensive.

Cool, I have a theme song now.

On-Topic.. When I'm out in the woods, I like to enjoy it as though I'm the first human to be out there, of couse I enjoy an occasional man-made convenience like trails, and water so it doesn't have to be completely devoid if signs of people. So as a courtesy to others who may be of the same mindset, I try not to leave obvious signs of my presence. If all others would do this, we'd all be better off.

Mickey

Max Entropy

More than just a name, a lifestyle.

[This message was edited by MaxEntropy on July 12, 2003 at 11:49 PM.]

2.7k · July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Some hikers have carried in exotic species seeds on their clothes that have over-run indigenous species. You might think animals could do the same thing, but they don't have modern transportation at their disposal. That's why many preserves don't want you off-trail, it's to prevent contamination as well as out-right damage.

OK. How does staying on the trail stop this?

If this is their concern they need to close down entirely. And perhaps erect a plastic bubble. (If they can do so without damaging the environment)

Come on, people, trampling a few WEEDS is temporary damage at best.

If a trail becomes a ravine, who are you to say that that was not what "nature" wanted in the first place. The trampled WEEDS could have just as easily been done by those nasty old, non-environmentally concious, deer.

Why is temprorary disruption of WEED growth such a crime when done by humans, and just "nature" when it is done by any other of God's creatures? At least we CAN re-plant the WEEDS if we so desire.

Human beings are no doubt the most EVIL life forms on the planet. "Nature" will surely be better off when we finally manage to trample enough WEEDS to cause our extinction!

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

July 13, 2003

I thought the official definition of "weed" was "any plant in the wrong place at the wrong time."

2.7k · July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox:
I thought the official definition of "weed" was "any plant in the wrong place at the wrong time."

It is in the wrong place at the wrong time if it happens to occupy the space underneath my foot or feet. Therefore it is a weed.

The woods are full of weeds. You trample them and they grow back- usually in greater abundance if my yard is any indicator.

(This is meant as humor)

Caint never did nothing.

GDAE, Dave

July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by CYBret:
http://www.goingfaster.com/icarus/statueliberty.jpg

_You MANIACS! You blew it up! And you didn't even sign the LOGBOOK!_

This one belongs in the "Greatest Moments in Geocaching History" thread.

ROFLMBO

Trash-out, EVERYtime

July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by CYBret:

_You MANIACS! You blew it up! And you didn't even sign the LOGBOOK!_

This one belongs in the "Greatest Moments in Geocaching History" thread.

ROFLMBO

Trash-out, EVERYtime

July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by peripatetic:

At which point I must point you to the Voluntary Human Extinction movement

"Phasing out the human race by voluntarily ceasing to breed will allow Earth's biosphere to return to good health. Crowded conditions and resource shortages will improve as we become less dense."

MORE FOR ME!!!

Have you ever heard of the SHAKERS?

They are mostly known for "shaker" furniture made from rough hewn wood.

They are also known for their "sex is sinful" attitudes, and it fits right in with the "Voluntary extinction" principal......

You can't rehang the forbidden fruit....

Trash-out, EVERYti

2.9k · July 13, 2003

Geocaching does not effect the environment much now, but with the 6 billion people, imagine what can happen. Kensington Metropark in South Eastern Michigan has changed alot. Less species, and fewer veriety of plant life, just in the past 30 to 40 years.

I have been interested in this planet for many years now.

It has a record somewhat of it's history buried deeply, and sometimes just below the surface. Many creatures that no longer exist, are now buried. I have been into religion for many years, but still amazed at how long the Earth may have existed in the physical number of years.

We are living in the physical world, and we need to take care of it.

We take care of each other, the creatures of the world, and the world itself.

I had gone to a lecture, given by an astronomer, and he said the earth could get used up pretty much by at least 2030, with 6 billion humans on it.

With all the bombs over the years in Iraq, it would be tough to examine the land there of it's past.

It could happen, The SUN can go unstable or have a hiccup and throw plasma at us, an Astroid could hit us, or GOD could throw in the towel tomorrow.

It is fun to speculate the WHAT IFS, but for now we have GPS units, A large planet to Enjoy, especially with the Caches out there. There have been many places, I would have never known about, if it was not for GEOCACHING. We also have each other, to do Geocaches, and Geocache events together.

Think of the Earth like an apartment. Each time a new renter goes there to live, is the apartment worst each time, the same, or better. The renter for that matter, could fix it up a little better, than they found it.

Way past my bedtime(Work nites stocking shelves)

--------------------------------------------------

My Old posts as Geoffrey

My Current Post as GOT GPS?

My profile

My Home Page about what is GPS

July 13, 2003

quote:
OK. How does staying on the trail stop this?

By not introducing exotics in or near an endangered natural bed. Sure, manpower can weed out the exotics, but that costs money and/or volunteers. Both of which are in short supply.

quote:
If this is their concern they need to close down entirely. And perhaps erect a plastic bubble. (If they can do so without damaging the environment)

With common sense, that isn't necessary.

quote:
Come on, people, trampling a few WEEDS is temporary damage at best.

Assuming the weeds aren't the only thing holding the soil in place, getting rid of them is what we want to do.

quote:
If a trail becomes a ravine, who are you to say that that was not what "nature" wanted in the first place. The trampled WEEDS could have just as easily been done by those nasty old, non-environmentally concious, deer.

Another Philosophy 101 argument. Do we have free will, or are things just destined to be?

I can't say I've seen deer trails that have taken things down to where it is an erosion problem, but given enough of them, perhaps. I've seen cattle do it, though, and motorcyclists. Deer do have their problems, but we're also to blame for some of that...we need to get over the fact that they are too cute to eat.

quote:
Why is temprorary disruption of WEED growth such a crime when done by humans, and just "nature" when it is done by any other of God's creatures? At least we CAN re-plant the WEEDS if we so desire.

It depends on the weeds. If you're killing musk thistle in Nebraska (an exotic introduced by man) you're doing a good thing. If you're killing a native plant that's already having a hard time holding on, then it's a bad thing.

quote:
Human beings are no doubt the most EVIL life forms on the planet. "Nature" will surely be better off when we finally manage to trample enough WEEDS to cause our extinction!

Evil is kind of a strong word. I'd say mankind is more like a bull in a china shop. We have the ability to do a lot of damage, and need to learn how to control it.

Of course, our exponential population growth and environmental abuses just might be part of nature's plan to get rid of us.

George

July 13, 2003

Considering there is at best about 3500 years of recorded history of mankind, (looking at really obscure definitions of "recorded", and "History")I would say that there is a definate indelible impact on the environment.

Sure ONE person leaving a track in a forest is "miniscule" but the NEXT three thousand that follow that track will make it more permanent. and the argument that animals "might " do the same is NOT a player, they do not drink Bud, eat at Burger King, or live in their own refuse.

The FACTS are that man has done MORE to this planet in the last 35 years than ALL of the animals of all times could have possibly done.

I am not a ecology nut, but I am aware that everytime I go ro the store I buy maybe thirty pounds of groceries and about 1/3 of that is the wrappings and other refuse.

We have a recycling program for 9 kinds of plastic in california, and no-one realizes that there is NO PROCESS for recycling 7 of those "defined" types, used in packaging. They end up getting buried with teh other "refuse" and they will be there in 10,000 years for archealogists to wonder at, not because they can not figure outWHAT they are, but they can not figure out WHY, when we do have recyclable resources we could use instead.

90% of the OIL is used in plastics manufacture, processing and delivery. more than 90% of the plastics are buried as refuse.

There will be a three inch layer of plastics fo researchers to analyse compressed over the millenia

Trash-out, EVERYtim

July 13, 2003

___________________________________________

Wow, I didn't expect to read so much!

Anyway...I will not relate everything together, but I'll try and relate some of the topics.

CIRCLE OF LIFE

What to say? I just had the thought that, like this discussion, life goes in circles...and some circles never intersect others. Perhaps a giant chart would be like a trillion connected circles, like a super-multi-dimensional Ven-Diagram. Haha! Anyway, the circle idea I thought should be mentioned.

LIFE OF A THREAD or DISCUSSION

Well, threads are weird...they all have rants, logics, and other things. If you are really interested in all the possibilities, then email me...but I won't waste your time. It's when a thread becomes repetitive that it gets sour or becomes a sort of looping-thing. That is frustrating. Of course, it doesn``t always happen. The point is, each post can have a thread of its own...and so many people post, it is hard to keep it all together, in a nice related, package...so that most people involved can go away with some truly new thing to think or do...as oppose to just ranting or debating.

WEEDS

Some weeds have flowers. Grass is a weed, yet we like it. Ha!

THE EXTREMES, THE BALANCE

Well, there may an answer to this question. I think its more rhetoric in that it makes a point, if not, then it is perhaps a building-block for some later conclusion:

Without the extremes, how do we find the balance between them?

Perhaps it ought to be a statement:

The balance is only known after exploring the extremes.

RESPECT, EVIL

Yes, we all define our own degrees of respect, evil, damage (emotional, physical, ecological...), and this and that. All lot of that is highly personal, just like FAITH. I thought this fact should simply be posted.

MISCONCEPTIONS

This happens in threads, and eventually, if people are really interested in learning something or the truth, then the misconceptions will be dealt with. You can always see who in the thread is really interested in finding the truth, and who isn't, and who isn't yet.

SHAKERS

I read a book which outlined first-hand experience with the Shakers. If you are to responsibly criticize any group of people with ideologies, you must be able to accept the positive and negative of their lifestyles. This is especially true if you are to label them with groups whose purpose is to reduce human numbers. Though your post has truth in it, I think you confused the EFFECT of the Shakers' beliefs with the PURPOSE of the other group (who wants to reduce human numbers). Responsible, fair, and accurate criticism is when you inform yourself of the good and bad, and if you don't, then it is important to mention the degree of your knowledge.

Well, I hope this helps somebody. If not, then let me know!!

Wow, I didn't expect to write so much!

___________________________________________

Kanto...and the mangoes fell...

[This message was edited by Kanto on July 13, 2003 at 05:40 PM.]

July 13, 2003

People seem to be posting extremes and worst case scenarios when it comes to impacting the environment. C'mon. Let's be real.

People who are attracted to geocaching have a vested interest in protecting the environment. We're not morons who chuck beer cans in the bushes or leave trails of burger king wrappers in teh forest. At least MOST of us don't.

Granted there are SOME delicate areas where cachiing and heavy foot traffic MIGHT impact the environment. Such areas are usually protected. There are laws and regulations governing such things. If not -- I'm sure some dedicated environmentalists are going to bring such situations to our attention and say, "stop it!"

The point most of us are trying to make here is that your typical cache has zero impact. Not that MAN hasn't had an impact on earth. You're mixing a larger issue with geocaching. I don't know of any caches where 3,000 people have beat a path to get to it.

I don't carry exotic seeds in my pocket. I don't dig holes with an entrencing tool to hide caches. Nor do I use a machette to blaze trails. i don't loot historical dig sites and take home souveniers. I don't tear up an area in a hundred foot radius just because I can't find a cache. An I don't take pot shots at rare birds or critters on my way back from a cache.

I don't know anyone else who does these things either. Maybe you can point out a dozen examples where someone has but my point is such idiots are the exception and not the norm. Every sport has people who don't follow the rules. It's up to the rest of us to police them and keep them in line.

I'm sorry -- 4 to 5 people visiting an cache each month isn't exactly a high traffic situation. Some of my caches are lucky to get 1 visitor a month.

Once the established cachers in an area hit a cache traffic tends to slow down to a trickle and nature quickly repairs the damage.

Having said all that if you can point out a cache that is causing an adverse impact on the environment than show it to me. I'll be the first to scream "Archvie it!!" if you're right.

Otherwise I just don't see a problem here.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

"Never declare war on a man who buys his ink by the gallon."

July 13, 2003

I didn't criticise the Shakers, I compared them. The philosophy was theirs to embrace as they saw fit, unfortunately there are not many shakers around...

The Lord said "be fruitful", and if you want your philosophies, good or bad, to survive, you have to leave offspring...Or the only evaluators will be outsiders.

Trash-out, EVERYtime

July 13, 2003

_______________________________________________

Hello

quote:
Originally posted by GeoCan:
I didn't criticise the Shakers, I compared them. The philosophy was theirs to embrace as they saw fit, unfortunately there are not many shakers around...

The Lord said "be fruitful", and if you want your philosophies, good or bad, to survive, you have to leave offspring...Or the only evaluators will be outsiders.

That is the inevitability isn't it? However small the chance, there is potential for an outsider to bring to life and gather offspring of an old, forgotten philosophy (whether or not they think its new or old).

Criticism or Comparison, my point is either must be done responsibly. (Just like Geochaching !! Yippa!)

_______________________________________________

quote:
Originally posted by Jolly B Good:

People seem to be posting extremes and worst case scenarios when it comes to impacting the environment. C'mon. Let's be real.

How do you find the balance, or the reality, without going to visit the extremes? (I'm glad you are finding the reality, I am not attacking you.)

quote:
Not that MAN hasn't had an impact on earth. You're mixing a larger issue with geocaching.

There is the long term effects and short term effects on all levels...including the transition between each of those. Mixing, or relating these is ok. Of course, there are those of us who can get straight to the essence of any discussion...

quote:
There are laws and regulations governing such things. If not -- I'm sure some dedicated environmentalists are going to bring such situations to our attention and say, "stop it!"

To add to this, the timing of the "stop it!" protest, and the following action by users and authorities, isn't always well executed. How long does something bad have to go on before the responsible act? I think we all agree that most Geocachers take responsibility of their environmental influence.

Perhaps a poll would help us find out the truth at the heart of this thread ?? We have to first find the question (or two) that is at the heart of it, don't you think?

quote:
It's up to the rest of us to police them and keep them in line.

Is there a spot on the site here that outlines all the places that have been ravaged? I know in trades, the services and the clients all know who does a good job and a bad job...and I was wondering if we can keep track of who does the ravaging, by the logs they leave behind?

Thanks!...and the chicken did his duty...

Thanks.

________________________________________________________

Kanto

Temple Kung Fu

"If you know about truth, tell me of it. If not, then I will search with you, together, in order to find it."

-Grandmaster Simon

________________________________________________________

24.7k · July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

I've never known you to show the latter in our debates.

Debates? I wouldn't exactly call your postings "debates". More like misinformed rantings.

Granted, you've lost any respect from me.

George

Case closed. You don't live up to your own standards.

July 13, 2003

Poor RK...reduced to continued sniping and trolling after being intellectually bested.

George

24.7k · July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Your original post seems to promote bushwacking with no reponsibility, as it will all be cured in 10,000 years. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but that's how you came off to me.

George

"Snipe" You missed the point of the post. I will go out on a misinformed limb here without going back and re-reading the original post and paraphrase it.

The argument is that in the long run geocaching won't have any noticable impact. From that perspective all the pissing and moaning about a trail to a geocache is laughable. Any one geocache will last one billionth of a second in geological time. Thus geocaching is no big deal.

Team 360 am I close?

George, half of communications is listening and making an effort to understand what the other person is trying to say. While I don't expect you to make the effort for my posts due to your clear dislike, you really should take the time for others. If for no other reason than it gives you a solid base to build your side of the debate and keeps it from becoming the misinformed ravings that your posts resemble when it's me you are disagreeing with.

7.9k · July 13, 2003

Perhaps GOD has intended me to knock that leaf off that tree while geocaching, unleashing an unforseeable chain of events, leading to the salvation and enlightenment of the entire human race...it's a yin-yang/karma thing, will you pursue your activity (for your own pleasure) regardless of the consequences to others? Or is there a point where you see that you might be harming someone else? BTW, both the Bible, and science state the earth will end in fire. We are a part of nature, and as such our actions are natural. The only difference is that we are (hopefully) concious of the results of our actions. Landscapes have been built and destroyed, species have been created and rendered extinct, for millions of years before the existence of humankind, and that cycle will continue even if we wipe ourselves out somehow. So far, only humankind can see whether we are soiling our own nest, or not, and perhaps do something about it if we can. We can not help but have some affect on the world, it's only a matter of degree. <end of 2 cents.>

[This message was edited by Azcachemeister on July 13, 2003 at 09:10 PM.]

July 13, 2003

Give it up, RK. You're wrong.

The original post of 360 is based on an age-old flawed argument that has been used to justify wrong-doing for ages. I just pointed that out.

Also, it is that kind of posting that gives non-geocachers the wrong idea. It does promote bushwhacking the way it was written.

Don't tell me about debate. You seem to know nothing of the subject. You made several claims in other threads about me, saying you can quote me against me, but when challenged you folded. You've also made claims that I don't know any more than you about preserving artifacts...another unfounded claim.

When pressed, you can't perform. Now you sit back and take sniper shots at cavers or anyone else who might not want to clue you in to the various things in the world. You made false claims about a hiker hiding petroglyphs from the public for years, then had the audacity to claim that the newspaper had mislead you. (It helps when you read the whole article, rather than scanning the headlines)

You even try to argue without having a reasonable grasp of the English language. Did you ever bother to figure out what 'caricature' means? Doubtful.

In short, RK, shut up. Post only if you have something meaningful to say.

Otherwise, go lick your ego wounds elsewhere.

George

July 13, 2003

_______________________________________________

Hello,

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Give it up, RK. You're wrong.

The original post of 360 is based on an age-old flawed argument that has been used to justify wrong-doing for ages. I just pointed that out.

The idea is flawed in some situations, but not all.

Now for some other possibilities...

Some would use the idea to justify wrong-doing (as defined by anyone).

Some would use the idea for finding truth.

Some would use the idea for supporting another idea...and in the end make some positively or negatively useful action with it.

Some would use the idea for whatever else.

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Also, it is that kind of posting that gives non-geocachers the wrong idea. It does promote bushwhacking the way it was written.

I agree, though I doubt it was Team360's intent, or the way it was written really reflected Team360's Geocaching habits...or did it?

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
In short, RK, shut up. Post only if you have something meaningful to say.

Otherwise, go lick your ego wounds elsewhere.

Anything that is posted, can lead to something meaningful. It is in your interpretation that any meaning will come out or not.

..and it was said beware of those who have the hair of the bear...

Thanks.

________________________________________________________

Kanto

"If you know about truth, tell me of it.

If not, then I will search with you, together, in order to find it."

-Grandmaster Simon

Temple Kung Fu

________________________________________________________

[This message was edited by Kanto on July 13, 2003 at 09:44 PM.]

July 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kanto:

+ The idea is flawed in some situations, but not all.

Now for some other possibilities...

+ Some would use the idea to justify wrong-doing (as defined by anyone).

+ Some would use the idea for finding truth.

+ Some would use the idea for supporting another idea...and in the end make some positively or negatively useful action with it.

+ Some would use the idea for whatever else.

True. That's really what I meant by a 'flawed argument'. It is so general, it really means nothing.

George

July 13, 2003

_______________________________________________

Hello,

I thought even though someone in these message boards has a quote in their signature truthfully saying something similar to:

"I have never learned anything from anyone I ever agreed with."

To build on this important idea...

...in the end, I think, it is a cycle of disagreement and agreement that brings the best results. You must exhaust as many options as possible before choosing one or two.

In the very long term, I don't think we have to worry about being bored out of knowing too much, having done everything, and agreeing on two much. There is so much CHANGE happening, that we may never keep up...or keep up just fast enough, so that we have a balance between disagreement and agreement. The balance changes.

Anyway, I personally like to agree with people, as it shows we have learned something from each other, because what we agree on is really something that is built from what he had previously disagreed about. There are other possibilities also.

SO, in the hopes that we come to some agreement...and fully knowing that we are always part of nature (in the most general sense)...

1-Ultimately, Geocaching as it is today will have negligble effect on the environment.

2-Geocaching has the potential to do much more harm than it has so far. (attracting the use of harmful vehicles in order to find caches...one example among many indirect effects) (There are different types of causes and effects: human cause, ecological effects, machine cause, etc..)

3a-There will always be those who try their best at being conciencely responsible (not intuitively responsible, like all other life on the planet).

3b-There will always be those who help preserve what their disturb, moderately.

3c-There will always be those who plow right on through and take no conscience responsibility.

4-The root of any behaviour is attitude.

5-The root of any attitude is another topic entirely, but related.

6-Please, add more to the list of things here that we may all agree on, or change the existing ones so they may be more accurate.

I hope this helps somebody.

Thanks.

________________________________________________________

Kanto

Temple Kung Fu

"If you know about truth, tell me of it. If not, then I will search with you, together, in order to find it."

-Grandmaster Simon

________________________________________________________

1.4k · July 13, 2003

Smells like smelly feet around here.

Could it be from an old sock?

Hmmm...

*****

2.3k · July 14, 2003

Renegade Knight-"The argument is that in the long run geocaching won't have any noticable impact. From that perspective all the pissing and moaning about a trail to a geocache is laughable. Any one geocache will last one billionth of a second in geological time. Thus geocaching is no big deal.

Team 360 am I close?"

Yep. Right there, as a matter of fact.

Nincehelser-"The original post of 360 is based on an age-old flawed argument that has been used to justify wrong-doing for ages. I just pointed that out."

What is flawed about the argument that mankind will not be on this planet forever? Don't take my word for it, go and ask any scientist; they will agree with that statement. Nature will erase every mark we have ever left on this planet, believe me.

Nincehelser-"You even try to argue without having a reasonable grasp of the English language. Did you ever bother to figure out what 'caricature' means? Doubtful.

In short, RK, shut up. Post only if you have something meaningful to say."

Is that type of response really called for?

Kanto-"I agree, though I doubt it was Team360's intent, or the way it was written really reflected Team360's Geocaching habits...or did it?"

My own geocaching habits are not under review here, the negligible impact of geocaching on the environment IS. Thank you.

July 14, 2003

quote:
What is flawed about the argument that mankind will not be on this planet forever? Don't take my word for it, go and ask any scientist; they will agree with that statement. Nature will erase every mark we have ever left on this planet, believe me.

There's no doubt about that. The whole universe could undergo a heat death and proton decay.

The issue is when you say "it won't matter" in some far-off time period. Like I said before, you can justify killing with this method...or almost anything.

What you should be trying to show is that any damage done by geocaching is resolved quickly in the short term...like if the vegetation is trampled, it will recover within a year.

If geocaching happend to denude a forest for 10 years, would you say it's OK, because any trace of the damage will be gone in 10,000 years?

What about telling a park ranger that any damage caused by your cache will be gone in 10,000 years?

quote:
Nincehelser-"You even try to argue without having a reasonable grasp of the English language. Did you ever bother to figure out what 'caricature' means? Doubtful.

In short, RK, shut up. Post only if you have something meaningful to say."

_Is that type of response really called for?_

Absolutely. His ignorance and arrogance is astounding.

But in 10,000 years it won't matter. That makes it OK, right?

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on July 14, 2003 at 12:28 PM.]

2.3k · July 14, 2003

You should not spend too much time on worrying about what other people do. You will waste your whole life on fruitless efforts, stress yourself out, and one day when your life is almost finished, you will have missed out on any enjoyment that you may have had a chance to experience, because you spent too much time worrying about the negative things in this life.

But, in taking my own words of wisdom to heart, I am not going to worry about which path you choose to take, that is up to you. What you think is permanent, never is. That house, that land, your body, they are all RENTED for this life and you HAVE to give them all back one day. Enjoy this place while you can, because you will NEVER come back here again.

And you want to worry about the flowers and ferns? Not me. I'm goin' caching, and if I step on some plants to do it, I can live with it.

24.7k · July 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

Absolutely. His ignorance and arrogance is astounding.

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on July 14, 2003 at 12:28 PM.]

Funny you should mention that. The arrogance is used on people like you because that is exactly how you are and how you come across. When logic and understanding fail you, you revert to the more base means of communications. Insulting. "Grog has club, grog wack RK, Grog feel better, Grog now scratch his crotch and wonder why dat seem familar."

Looks like I'll have to dig up that dadgum monky thread and string together your own argument for you since I did at least take the time to try and understand your angle.

July 14, 2003

Go right ahead.

My logic is sound. You're the one making false claims about what I do, what was written in papers, and what I may or may not have said. I'm not the one making claims that caver grottos are not qualified to manage caves. I'm not the one taking pot shots and trolls directed towards the caving community just because I don't like them.

Put up or shut up. Please provide your evidence that caving grottos aren't qualified for cave management. Please provide your evidence that I haven't done restoration work of artificacts. Please tell me why you think a hiker kept secrets from the world for 6 years and why, in your words, he must be a caver.

It's funny how you make outrageous claims you can't back up. It's funny how most cavers are giving you the brush-off. If you were such a calm and rational guy that wouldn't be the case.

George

4.8k · July 14, 2003

Uhm... This thread started out kind of interesting, but now it just seems to be a personal fight. Can't you guys take that outside (like to email)? Seems like time for this thread to die.

July 14, 2003

That house, that land, your body, they are all RENTED for this life and you HAVE to give them all back one day.

Interesting philosophy. Have you ever noticed how rental cars are driven hard and often trashed? How many rental properties get trashed, because the occupants just don't care? After all, it's not going to matter to them after they move out. It's not going to matter in 10,000 years.

Yes. I think my original take on your original posting was the right one.

George

July 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:
Uhm... This thread started out kind of interesting, but now it just seems to be a personal fight. Can't you guys take that outside (like to email)? Seems like time for this thread to die.

Oh, that I would, but RK is now using slimeball tactics against a whole group of people besides me.

I'll knock off when he knocks off making unfounded claims and snide remarks against the caving community.

George

July 14, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:
You should not spend too much time on worrying about what other people do. You will waste your whole life on fruitless efforts, stress yourself out, and one day when your life is almost finished, you will have missed out on any enjoyment that you may have had a chance to experience, because you spent too much time worrying about the negative things in this life.

I have to ask. Did you adopt this philosphy as a result of the geko avatar incident?

(just kidding)

George

July 14, 2003

ACK!! So many flamable posts! Sensory overload!! OCD's all around!!!!

Must...

warn....

others....

4.8k · July 14, 2003

quote:
ACK!!

Hey! that is one of my favorite posting words!That and ay yi yi!

I'm also staying out of this argument!

[This message was edited by carleenp on July 15, 2003 at 08:20 AM.]

4.8k · July 14, 2003

Maybe we can hijack this thread.

I like gurgle gurgle THUMP too! I'm imagining what that sounds like now!

July 14, 2003

quote:
I like gurgle gurgle THUMP too! I'm imagining what that sounds like now!

Dunno about how it sounds, but I can show you what it looks like...

July 14, 2003

_______________________________________________

And so I am guilty of repetition, but with a purpose !!...to find a resolution. (for those who are interested) Here goes...

1-Ultimately (in the strictest, most infinite sense), Geocaching, among all other human activities, will be overrun by other forces of the universe. POINT ORIGINALLY MADE BY: TEAM360, and supported by others.

2-Geocaching, has the potential to do noticeable harm in the short term (whether in your life, the life of a bug, animal, or tree, or ecosystem, and even in the life of others who come after you)more damage if it is not responsibly done. SHORT TERM MEANING: anything noticeable by the human race, or any other life near the human race, or any individual within those life forms).

3-THE ULTIMATE REALITY is not an excuse to IGNORE the SHORT TERM effects. POINT CARRIED ON BY MANY, MAINLY: Nincehelser.

That is all. I do not see why there is an argument at all, after looking at these facts, which I (possibly inaccurately) interpreted from the entire thread.

...here's a toast to a lively bunch, and a lively topic !

Thanks.

________________________________________________________

Kanto

Temple Kung Fu

"If you know about truth, tell me of it. If not, then I will search with you, together, in order to find it."

-Grandmaster Simon

________________________________________________________

[This message was edited by Kanto on July 14, 2003 at 06:57 PM.]

July 14, 2003

quote:
That is all. I do not see why there is an argument at all, after looking at these facts, which I (possibly inaccurately) interpreted from the entire thread.

Oh, I can tell you why, but I won't

I'm just really interested in hearing how park rangers will respond to the 10,000 year argument

Anyone got the guts to try it?

George

2.3k · July 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:
You should not spend too much time on worrying about what other people do. You will waste your whole life on fruitless efforts, stress yourself out, and one day when your life is almost finished, you will have missed out on any enjoyment that you may have had a chance to experience, because you spent too much time worrying about the negative things in this life.

I have to ask. Did you adopt this philosphy as a result of the geko avatar incident?

(just kidding)

George

Not about the famous avatar thing, but lately I have taken a deep breath and tried to relax a bit about things. Don't forget how to have some fun and laugh every once in a while. That's my outlook. Okay, I have said enough in this thread. See you on the trail!

1.4k · July 15, 2003

Yeah, you know that the Hoover Dam actualy started out as a beaver dam and we just covered it in some concrete to keep the beavers out. Dam (sic) them beavers!!!!!!

Geocaching impact on the environment: the final word in 10,000 years

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