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who owns our logs?


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In this topic, TJ/Rex admits that he deleted all the log entries from his caches in a fit of anger. He seems sorry about it now, but the damage is done.

 

This raises the question: who owns our logs? Who has a right to change them & delete them?

 

From what I can tell, everything we type in our cache & TB log entries is "copyright © 2003 by Groundspeak". This is a reasonable position to take, though I much prefer the position taken by the WELL community system (well.com), which is essentially, "you own your own words". Posts on the WELL can only be edited by the author. The author is free to reuse their words on other systems and printed material. Permission is expected from the author of any given post for excerpted use by others elsewhere.

 

I do understand that Groundspeak wants to maintain its competitive advantage by preventing someone from coming along and blindly copying 50,000 caches (with logs) to seed their own geocaching site. I've read the Buxley's saga. I get it. I even like the idea of having one central successful geocaching site.

 

But I'm a bit bothered by the implicit agreement that by clicking submit, I'm signing my rights away to whatever I write, whether it's a cache description, log entry, or forum post.

 

I'm more bothered by the idea that cache or TB owners, or even Groundspeak, can edit or delete posts without my having any say in it. Each post is a little slice of my life. I spend time trying to make things creative & interesting. I like having the opportunity to write a few paragraphs in the ongoing geocaching saga. The prospect of someone coming along and hitting the delete key on a few hours of my life is troubling.

 

Just my 2 cents,

Tim

 

<timpaula>

 

[This message was edited by timpaula on June 18, 2003 at 12:08 AM.]

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I preface the following by saying I know virtually nothing about copyright or intellectual property law. I accept that what I write here may be deleted. Its not my site, and I don’t believe I have any right to insist that my words remain here. I guess I could retain copies of all of my posts and cache logs (but I don’t). I would be a bit upset if my words were edited and yet still attributed to me (that would misrepresenting me). What I write here, or in the cache logs, is not a work of art, but simply a written communication from myself to other Geocachers. I believe the receiver of a communication, becomes the owner of the communication in the form in which it is delivered. If I had a bunch of letters addressed to me from Elvis Presley, I think I would be at liberty to sell them without worrying about his estate coming after me and I do not believe his estate could ask for them back. If someone wants to republish my communication elsewhere I wouldn’t have a problem with that - so long as they got it right (otherwise it would be “gossip”) and that they did not republish it as their own communication.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

geol4.JPG

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To prevent people doing things like TJ/Rex did, would it be more reasonable, that the cache owner couldn't delete logs. Instead (s)he still could have the ability to change the fake finds to notes with attached explanation why (s)he did that. In that way the possible maliciously changed logs would still be visible and the groundless find-to-note changes would still be visible and fixable by an admin.

 

I can see problems with this option too, but deleting one's finds for revenge or for just fun is probably the worst thing you can do to a fellow cacher.

 

Uh, is there a chance there's some kind of a backup file where the logs of TJ/Rex's archived caches still exist? I'd like to see that those who found his caches still get the credit for them.

 

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

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Open to abuse as it is, I think owners need the ability to delete logs, in case loggers reveal stuff that you're not meant to know pre-hunt. Perhaps you should have to give a reason when you delete a log, and the author then gets sent an email that goes something like this:

 

quote:

The owner of cache Foobar has deleted your log for the following reason:

 

"You gave away the final location of the multi and compared my mother unfavourably to a gorilla."

 

If you think it should be reinstated, click here, and TPTB will look into it.


 

What's your favourite thing?

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I don't think that you can sign over an experience. Groundspeak owns the way each cache page looks and feels and the content on the page as a whole. As was stated, this helps stop someone from copying the page and selling it for their own purpose.

 

A case can even be made for ownership of the individual cache entries but it's not the words that really matter, but the experience. There's nothing that can prevent me, as owner of the experience and original author, from posting that where I wish, as long as the provider of the target site gives permission.

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quote:
I can see problems with this option too, but deleting one's finds for revenge or for just fun is probably the worst thing you can do to a fellow cacher.

 

This isn't the first instance of this happening. But some posters in this thread are right, the owner needs to have the ability to delete logs for a variety of reasons, including removing spoilers and fake finds. Because of this, we're at the mercy of the cache owner. Thankfully, the overwhelming majority of them have the integrity to keep legit find logs intact.

 

One way to keep a record of your log is to click on "watch this cache" before making your entry.

You'll get an e-mail with a copy of your log and you can create a mail folder just for your logs.

This way, you can always replace it if the cache owner deletes it in a "fit of anger", accidently, or to be spiteful. If they keep deleting it, then I guess you're SOL.

 

"Au pays des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois"

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on June 18, 2003 at 03:45 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

But some posters in this thread are right, the owner needs to have the ability to delete logs for a variety of reasons, including removing spoilers and fake finds.


Well, after reading those posts, yours included, and having thought about it, I have to agree. Though, there's always the encryption button available, so spoilers can be hidden and pointed out with a note above, but I guess the current system with the owner's ability to delete logs is still the least worst.
quote:
One way to keep a record of your log is to click on "watch this cache" before making your entry.

You'll get an e-mail with a copy of your log and you can create a mail folder just for your logs.

This way, you can always replace it if the cache owner deletes it in a "fit of anger", accidently, or to be spiteful.


This is actually a very good idea! Thanks for pointing it out.

 

- I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. -

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Regarding the logs . . .

Whenever this comes up, I validate the reasons for keeping my own database. In the end, whether a cacher deletes a log, GC.com craps out, etc., I have my own caching history.

 

How important is your caching history to you? All these posts are mounted on servers you have no control over.

 

Back up, back up, back up!

 

Fro.

 

________________________________________

Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

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I'll save the linking to others, but I pointed out to TimPaula in thechat room last night, as soon as you commit your own creation to a medium (in this case your creation is your cache description or log, and the medium is a webpage) you have a legal copyright on that material. Jeremy has posted many times that you are free to do what you wish with your logs and your cache descriptions. Of course, as it was pointed out above, he still has the right to decide if he wants to actually publish your cache or log or forum post on his website.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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If you have webspace you can back up your logs there too. Currently ours simply has a link to the Groundspeak cache page, but as soon as I have time I will be putting what I've posted for each cache on my own webpage. That way it has a certain amount a permanence and takes whatever miniscule load off the Geocaching.com server.

 

I also agree that the cache owner needs to be able to delete logs for whatever reasons as has already been mentioned in this thread.

-Dan

 

Team Kender - "The Sun is coming up!" "No, the horizon is going down."

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First..

 

In only several occasions have we ever actually edited a log. One was a concerned individual who came to discover that their house was a virtual cache (a historical home with tours), and wanted an image of a beautiful (and priceless) stained glass window picture and reference removed. The others were for foul language and folks giving out travel bug numbers accidentally, or fake logs.

 

Understandably we could do with less Rex_Gordan and TJWilson types. However, early on it was a decision that the owner owns their own cache and therefore their own cache listing. Once you post a log to a cache listing you are at the mercy of the owner of that cache.

 

Fortunately we actually *never* delete a log entry. When someone archives a log the entry is just switched off so it isn't viewable. The same goes for cache listings. So if by some boneheaded logic someone archives all logs (in one case a naive geocacher didn't like the length of a log so "trimmed" it), we can restore them.

 

Great idea to get a copy by watching a cache. When I overhaul the "log a cache" page I'll make sure to add a "send me a copy" checkbox so it will email you your log after you post it. It may even make sense to allow people to view their archived logs.

 

frog.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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I cache w/a Palm device, with my own Geocaching database, so at the cache site, after I fill out the paper logbook, I fill in that memo field of my database in the Palm. When I get home and log 'em online, I simply embellish my DB's log notes. Ironically, having never paid attention (oh I know, 'twas before attending an event), I got my total. Then I noticed my GC.com total was low! A quick comparison revealed that a cache I had done had never been logged online. Voila!

 

This also prevents me from that, "couldn't remember" or TN, left something crowd...

 

Oh the other hand, I also save a copy of the page of the caches I've hidden, in case the GC.com world blows up...

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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quote:
Originally posted by RJFerret:

I cache w/a Palm device, with my own Geocaching database, so at the cache site, after I fill out the paper logbook, I fill in that memo field of my database in the Palm.


This was my intention too, but a PDA in the field is not hardy enough to withstand the the rigor of caching. I replaced my iPAQ after finding that out.

 

Then it was my intention to employ my own database in the car. But frankly, it is just as easy to log everything in a notebook at the cache site, particularly on days when there are a lot of caches being found.

 

Since I enter two images to my database for each cache, I need to interact with the database again. Typing in the description takes no time in comparison to the video editing that goes along with each cache.

 

Fro.

 

________________________________________

Geocaching . . . hiking with a purpose

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