For those who don't sign the cache log....

October 16, 2003

What should I do with entries online that are not on the log sheet? I recently refreshed the logs in two of my caches and each was missing an entry from the same person. Should I care?

1.4k · October 16, 2003

Should I care?

It's your cache, so it's your choice as to what to do with the logs......

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

8.4k · October 16, 2003

E-mail the person first. I noticed a cache team (700+ finds) in my area only leaves a card and doesn't sign the log. Someone could take that and then where's their proof?

Be reasonable. Ask a verification question like on a virt if you really need to know.

Sngans

If you are not failing now and again, it's a sign you're playing it safe. - Woody Allen

October 16, 2003

I wouldn't worry about them. You know who signed and who didn't. Maybe they forgot. Maybe they are lazy. No pen, or maybe they fudged it.

It doesn't matter unless you let it matter to you.

.02

October 16, 2003

I'd email them...

I did a virtual, logged the find and emailed the owner. The email didn't go through for some reason, and he did follow up and email me to make sure I really did visit it. He said it was just preserving the integrity of the game. I respect that.

Jaime and Jason

Team Cacheopeia

image ©scienceandart.com -- used with permission

2.2k · October 16, 2003

Heres an ethical question.

If I can answer all the questions on a virtual cache by doing a little bit of internet research, is it ethical to log the cache if I was never actually there?

October 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by wavehopper:
Heres an ethical question.

If I can answer all the questions on a virtual cache by doing a little bit of internet research, is it ethical to log the cache if I was never actually there?

http://www.keenpeople.com/stats/

Why would you want to? At least drive by it and wave. Get out of the car and touch it. The experience is what caching is about. Not the number of finds.

1.3k · October 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by wavehopper:
Heres an ethical question.

If I can answer all the questions on a virtual cache by doing a little bit of internet research, is it ethical to log the cache if I was never actually there?

[url=http://www.keenpeople.com/stats/

Just another reason why virts are feeling the pinch. It's too easy to cheat. I have mixed feelings on that one ethically. For a while I had made it a personal game to log as many vacation virts in my area from the couch as I could, but unfortunately they were all very well done, and it was difficult to find all of the answers online. As I have been at all of the locations at one time or another, it doesn't seem bad. Still, the only virt I was able to completely research on the web was placed by a local, and thus exempt from my little game. Te others actually required your presence on site to answer the questions.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

October 16, 2003

Since these were not virts I have to question if there was actually a find, but then again, if this person thinks its fun just to have 600 "finds" which may or may not actually be finds, then they aren't really playing the game and they are cheating themselves.....right?

October 17, 2003

Delete the logs.

The game has guidelines... signing the paper log is part of the guidelines.

If a person doesn't have enough time to sign the log, then why would they bother in the first place?

2.3k · October 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mark 42:
If a person doesn't have enough time to sign the log, then why would they bother in the first place?

Maybe they were just hungry for broken McToys?

Joel (joefrog)

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

2.3k · October 17, 2003

Remember its just a game. Its up to you how strict you want to be.

Free your mind and the rest will follow

9.2k · October 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ~del Mar~:
What should I do with entries online that are not on the log sheet? I recently refreshed the logs in two of my caches and each was missing an entry from the same person. Should I care?

No, you shouldn't. I can think of a half dozen reasons why the logs might be out of sync, and none of them have anything to do someone trying to claim a cache they didn't find. The pen in the cache didn't work. Their own pen didn't work. It was starting to rain, and they didn't want the log to get wet. The log was already wet, and they couldn't write on it. They were caching with a team, and only signed with the team name. They just plain forgot.

Unless you have a really good reason to believe a web log is false, forget about it. It's not a competition. If someone wants to cheat, they're only cheating themselves.

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

October 17, 2003

I personally don't play Geocaching police but this is suspicious and I feel you have a certian amount or responsibility here. You could simply delete the entry and wait for a reply or take the time to email them to tell you of your actions. with two missing entrys by the same person they should be able to prove to you they found the cache. You could ask them something only you would know if you found the cache. If satisified they can re enter the log.

October 17, 2003

I'd not delete the log. If they just forgot to sign the log, then deleting it obviously would be wrong. If they are cheating, they only are hurting themselves in the long run. Why spend any time and/or energy worrying about what others are doing?

October 17, 2003

If it was raining, or the person signed as part of a team,

or some other reason, it would be common courtesy

to mention it in the online log entry, I would think.

I don't honestly care all that much, but generally,

IMNSHO, if you don't touch all of the bases it ain't a home run.

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

October 17, 2003

During a visit to one cache, between removing junk items from the cache, keeping our four-year-old away from the treacherous-looking edge of a canal/stream, sorting through my backpack to pick just the right items to leave, picking up my cell phone that had been knocked off of my belt by a tree, trying to figure out how to make sure it wasn't as exposed as it was when I found it, and at least one "take a look at this" from my wife, when we reached the car, I didn't remember signing the log. Maybe I did -- maybe I didn't.

I sent an email to the cache owner explaining the situation and describing the cache in detail. He had no problems.

Perhaps an email to the "finder" might be in order. I wouldn't want to be the cache police either, but fair is fair.

2.4k · October 17, 2003

I just did a cache yesterday that didn't have a writing instrument. Normally I have a pen with me, but forgot it in the van. I didn't have the time to make a trip to the van and back to sign the log, so there's no signature from me in the logbook. I did mention in my online log that future seekers will want to bring along a pen/pencil, AND I e-mailed the hider explaining, and offering to go back and sign the log later, if they so desired. (There's another cache I haven't found, about .2 miles from this one, so I'll be back in the area sometime....)

Not holding back

5.3k · October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by IV_Warrior:
I just did a cache yesterday that didn't have a writing instrument. Normally I have a pen with me, but forgot it in the van. I didn't have the time to make a trip to the van and back to sign the log, so there's no signature from me in the logbook.

If this were one of my caches, I would delete your find. If you don't sign the log, it's not a find. Period. In my earlier caching days, I forgot a pen often. I found a couple of caches without writing instruments, and in each case I improvised a way to sign the log.

1.3k · October 19, 2003

Several hours ago, I did a cache that was waterlogged. It was impossible to sign the logbook as the pencil would tear the paper. I pulled a sheet out of the logbook, dried it off with my lighter, and signed in. On a recent micro, I forgot a pencil. Took a twig, charred the end, signed in. There's almost always some way to prove you've been there.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

1.7k · October 19, 2003

If del Mar is in Arizona not Denver and is the same local cacher who hass placed some caches, then he should know about a couple of cheaters we have in the area. 1 log maybe excused, but 2 logs sounds funny.

Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes

On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:

"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --

"Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"

Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898

38.2k · October 19, 2003

quote:
What should I do with entries online that are not on the log sheet? I recently refreshed the logs in two of my caches and each was missing an entry from the same person. Should I care?

If it was one missing log, I'd give the person the benefit of the doubt. He could have forgotten (I know I have). When you see two from the same person, that's fishy. If there is a pattern of someone doing this, I'd delete the logs without hesitation. If it's just a couple, before I delete them, I'd send the person an e-mail to see if they have a reasonable explanation.

quote:
Heres an ethical question.

If I can answer all the questions on a virtual cache by doing a little bit of internet research, is it ethical to log the cache if I was never actually there?

Since the point of geocaching is for people to visit a spot, no it's not ethical.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
If it was one missing log, I'd give the person the benefit of the doubt. He could have forgotten (I know I have). When you see two from the same person, that's fishy. If there is a pattern of someone doing this, I'd delete the logs without hesitation. If it's just a couple, before I delete them, I'd send the person an e-mail to see if they have a reasonable explanation.

It is just a game right? It is just for our enjoyment right? We are not all a bunch of new geocachers looking to keep score right?

Geesh I find it the other way around, I sign the log books but many many many times forget to log it online. Mostly because I could care less how high my finds is. I was caching before I had an official account on geocaching.com using a friends GPS, I've been out there to maybe 30 to 40 caches that were never logged on the geocaching site.

I say its a game, if they log it, fine, if your that concerned they get a higher score than you then maybe your in the wrong sport.

(Note that last comment is directed in general and not the the person I quoted )

Keith

Bear & Ducky

October 19, 2003

A micro I've recently visited was a 35 mm film cannister of paper pulp. The log was totally destroyed since the cache owner moved to florida, and the cache was in NC.

So my personal plan B when written logs are not available; photograph the left handed heck out of it. Twenty seven eight-by-ten colour 1024x768 JPEGS with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence for us. We took pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to mention the aerial photography.

Then when I realized the cache had been this way for months I said "Kid, you need to archive this cache."

And that's what Honeychile did, she archived that cache and now we wait. Maybe we'll have a thanksgiving dinner that can't be beat while we wait.

Man, I'm old.

They say this universe is bound to blow,

I say we crank up the Calypso Control!

~Jimmy Buffett

~Someday I Will~

October 19, 2003

I'm generally not a legalistic person, and if others want to go ahead and cheat, that's their business... as long as they don't drag me into their cheating. If someone was playing Monopoly with me and started stealing extra hundreds, I wouldn't just shrug it off and say "It's just a game." I'd stop playing with them, after I made sure I had my facts right.

If I had a cache that I'd spent lots of time setting up, I'd want people to play by the rules. SO I'd email them, and if they couldn't account for the missing logs, I'd delete it. I wouldn't stay up all night furious about it, but I wouldn't condone cheaters' games, either.

Jaime

Jaime and Jason

Team Cacheopeia

image ©scienceandart.com -- used with permission

38.2k · October 19, 2003

quote:
It is just a game right? It is just for our enjoyment right? We are not all a bunch of new geocachers looking to keep score right?

quote:
I'm generally not a legalistic person, and if others want to go ahead and cheat, that's their business... as long as they don't drag me into their cheating.

Logging fake finds is not victimless cheating. Some geocachers only look for caches with recent finds because they don't want to waste their time on a cache that might be missing. Fake finds can cause them to waste their time looking for a cache that may be long gone.

Also, a recent fake find might cause them to search longer and harder than they would of had there not been one. I don't know about the rest of you, but when someone elses actions waste my valuable time, it's not harmless cheating.

Fake finds can also lead a cache owner to believe that his cache is there and in good shape, thereby delaying needed maintenance.

If people want to cheat, let them cheat at solotaire. Don't do it where your cheating could effect others.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on October 19, 2003 at 07:04 AM.]

2.4k · October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

quote:
Originally posted by IV_Warrior:
I just did a cache yesterday that didn't have a writing instrument. Normally I have a pen with me, but forgot it in the van. I didn't have the time to make a trip to the van and back to sign the log, so there's no signature from me in the logbook.

If this were one of my caches, I would delete your find. If you don't sign the log, it's not a find. Period. In my earlier caching days, I forgot a pen often. I found a couple of caches without writing instruments, and in each case I improvised a way to sign the log.

Perhaps you would, but others don't. I e-mailed the cache owner in question, at the same time that I logged the cache, and made the offer to go back later and sign the log if so desired. I was told not to worry about it, and to enjoy the other caches in the area.

Not holding back

24.7k · October 19, 2003

There is no rule that says a person has to log online any more than they have to log the paper log. We may like to see the logs but there is no rule.

There are a lot of reasons an online logger may not have the same log as in the paper. They could have changed their name. They could of been casual geocachers with a friend then started going on their own and didn't sign until then.

It's up to you what you do but your cache should say "anyone who doesn't sign the physical log will have their online log deleted" as your rule. Otherwise they followed all the rules except an unwritten one.

October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Snoogans:
E-mail the person first. I noticed a cache team (700+ finds) in my area only leaves a card and doesn't sign the log. Someone could take that and then where's their proof?

Be reasonable. Ask a verification question like on a virt if you really need to know.

Sngans

If you are not failing now and again, it's a sign you're playing it safe. - Woody Allen

I used to make this mistake. I had some business cards with a cartoon printed on it. I would simply tuck it in the log book or toss it in the cache. (the cartoon was geocaching related) On the back I would put the name of the cache I placed it in and the date.

Apparently a lot of people thought the cartoon was funny and took the card or possibly thought it was a trade item (I've run across my own card in caches I've visited for the first time.

Needless to say I gave up the practice.

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

"I'd like to buy the world a coke, but I only have fifty cents"

October 19, 2003

The answer is no.

Bender

Searching, for the lost Xanadu

October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking:
If del Mar is in Arizona not Denver and is the same local cacher who hass placed some caches, then he should know about a couple of cheaters we have in the area. 1 log maybe excused, but 2 logs sounds funny.

Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes

On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:

"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --

"Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"

Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898

Hi, Yes I am in AZ (I work out of Denver) anyway please let me know about the "local" cheaters. If the logs belong to him I will delete them. So far no response by email.

October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Logging fake finds is not victimless cheating. Some geocachers only look for caches with recent finds because they don't want to waste their time on a cache that might be missing. Fake finds can cause them to waste their time looking for a cache that may be long gone.

Also, a recent fake find might cause them to search longer and harder than they would of had there not been one. I don't know about the rest of you, but when someone elses actions waste my valuable time, it's not harmless cheating.

I have to say, you must have some aweful geocachres in your area.

I would think that 1) responcible geocachers know if thier cache has gone missing and post notes; and 2) if you have that many fakers posting recent caches as to fool everyone else into believing its there then this sport really is dead.

Its every cachers perogative to decide if they want to delete the logs or not, but the day I spend my time searching through logs to validate each entry and confirm on the off chance someones cheating is the day I toss my GPS off a cliff, because at that point I will no longer be having fun at this sport.

Keith

Bear & Ducky

October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cat'N'Geo:
So my personal plan B when written logs are not available; photograph the left handed heck out of it. Twenty seven eight-by-ten colour 1024x768 JPEGS with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence for us. We took pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to mention the aerial photography.

Then when I realized the cache had been this way for months I said "Kid, you need to archive this cache."

Haha.. LOL!

quote:
Man, I'm old.

No you're not! If you had quoted Woody Guthrie instead of Arlo, I would agree...

It's getting to be that time of year,

Randy

("You can get any thing you want..." now running through my head. That would make for a LONG MP3..)

9.2k · October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Logging fake finds is not victimless cheating. Some geocachers only look for caches with recent finds because they don't want to waste their time on a cache that might be missing. Fake finds can cause them to waste their time looking for a cache that may be long gone.

Perhaps. But but the question was not "Should I delete the log of cheaters?" It was about deleting logs that aren't in the paper version.

I have to think that the number of cheaters is very, very small (there can't be much satisfaction in it). As such, if you delete a log just because there's no corresponding paper version, chances are very good that you're just punishing an innocent person.

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

October 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Prime Suspect:

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Logging fake finds is not victimless cheating. Some geocachers only look for caches with recent finds because they don't want to waste their time on a cache that might be missing. Fake finds can cause them to waste their time looking for a cache that may be long gone.

Perhaps. But but the question was not "Should I delete the log of cheaters?" It was about deleting logs that aren't in the paper version.

I have to think that the number of cheaters is very, very small (there can't be much satisfaction in it). As such, if you delete a log just because there's no corresponding paper version, chances are very good that you're just punishing an innocent person.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/3608_2800.gif

_"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."_

Good Point

For those who don't sign the cache log....

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